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slow_dazzle
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1121
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 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: OK PI - slack narrative from me |
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I should have said that most consumption of resources isn't by individuals. Kirkpatrick Sale neatly points that one out.
But...there are selfish people around PI. I see them driving around in monster 4Wd vehicles. I see them parking in disabled parking bays. I see them voting when the enticement is the benefit for them and not for society.
Public transport? A big YES from me.
Here's an interesting point to consider though. As the oil crisis bites driving/owning a car is going to exclude lower income people due to cost. I wonder at which point resentment will kick in as people start to become excluded from car ownership? I'm not posting this particular point as a rebuttal to your comments PI because I mostly agree with you; just musing as to what will happen as the inevitable price increases shove people out of their cars.
_________________
On behalf of the future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.
John Perry Barlow - A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace |
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professorpan
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 3540
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Pan, go write your novel. |
Hugh, go back to dreaming up keyword hijackings.
I happen to agree with you that the bulk of scientists claiming that global warming is not man-made are being disingenuous. But their money comes from oil companies (verified) not intelligence agencies (unverified). When I point out your logical flaws and unsupported accusations, don't accuse me of erecting straw men.
And Slim, when you asked:
Are profits up or down ?
The oil industry made a record $101 billion profit in 2006. |
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Cosmic Cowbell
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 1016
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: we need to separate cause and effect here |
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| populistindependent wrote: | | The "personal responsibility" and "personal choices" and "selfish human nature" aguments are the problem, and can never be part of the solution. |
Personal responsibility, personal choices and overcoming selfish human nature are a mandatory -part- of the solution. |
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populistindependent
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 919
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: OK PI - slack narrative from me |
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| slow_dazzle wrote: | | But...there are selfish people around PI. I see them driving around in monster 4Wd vehicles. I see them parking in disabled parking bays. I see them voting when the enticement is the benefit for them and not for society. |
Oh sure. There is an epidemic of selfishness. But that is after decades of people being encouraged to be selfish, selfish behavior being rewarded - and most importantly, and something that everyone overlooks - compassionate and altruistic behavior and ideas being punished.
| Quote: | | Public transport? A big YES from me. |
Very good.
| Quote: | | Here's an interesting point to consider though. As the oil crisis bites driving/owning a car is going to exclude lower income people due to cost. I wonder at which point resentment will kick in as people start to become excluded from car ownership? I'm not posting this particular point as a rebuttal to your comments PI because I mostly agree with you; just musing as to what will happen as the inevitable price increases shove people out of their cars. |
The resentment has long since kicked in. Long since, and it is deep and it is bitter. I can't understand how intellectuals miss this, or what they are hoping for or waiting for. Mass resistance? How can that happen when the blue collar and poor people do not have advocates and leaders and organizers from among the intellectuals?
Intellectuals look at blue collar people and poor people as a "them" - some mob of people quite different from themselves, and blame them for so many things and talk about waiting for them to wake up or get slapped upside the head so they will come to their senses or something. It is all very condescending, authoritarian and aristocratic.
It is the intellectuals - writers, thinkers, speakers, and organizers - who are missing in action, not the average workers. The blue collar people are ready to go, but they need advocates, spokespersons, writers, analysts, organizers. When the people with that set of verbal skills - skills no better than carpentry or farming, but nevertheless essential - are divorced and estranged from the rest of the population - and that is no accident by the way - the people have no voice and so they have no power.
Worse, most intellectuals are shilling for the wealthy and powerful in exchange for some status, trinkets and comfort. |
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populistindependent
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 919
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: we need to separate cause and effect here |
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| Cosmic Cowbell wrote: | | Personal responsibility, personal choices and overcoming selfish human nature are a mandatory -part- of the solution. |
Well, that was what the Reagan revolution was all about.
What we have discovered is that "personal responsibility" and "personal choices" caused selfishness to run amok and we have all suffered as a result. |
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et in Arcadia ego
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 3858
Location: The Void
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| harflimon wrote: | | et in Arcadia ego wrote: | | King_Mob wrote: | | et in Arcadia ego wrote: | Three US Universities vs the IPCC.
Decisions, decisions.... |
No offense Mr. ego, but how can you be certain that your appeal to authority is the correct one? |
None taken. However, there's not much anyone's going to be able to accomplish in persuading me of Big Oil's interest towards anything but it's own profits. |
Doesn't mean what their saying is factually incorrect. It was a Big Oil scientist who first proposed and researched Peak Oil and I dare say you and many others on this board find that to be true. What your really saying is that this doesn't fit your point of view and so you don't accept it as true. |
No, what I'm saying is I don't trust the fucking oil companies, that's all. You aren't going to bully me into accepting a well-paid shill's POV on anything.
Don't care much for the UN, either, FWIW. Whether or not Man influences Climate Change I think it would be a great idea to clean up our act as a species in general.
_________________
"He checks out, by the way, to the best of my ability to check him out. Lives in GA, formerly lived in Miami, etc. " - Dream's End |
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Brentos
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: OK PI - slack narrative from me |
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| slow_dazzle wrote: | I should have said that most consumption of resources isn't by individuals. Kirkpatrick Sale neatly points that one out.
But...there are selfish people around PI. I see them driving around in monster 4Wd vehicles. I see them parking in disabled parking bays. I see them voting when the enticement is the benefit for them and not for society.
Public transport? A big YES from me.
Here's an interesting point to consider though. As the oil crisis bites driving/owning a car is going to exclude lower income people due to cost. I wonder at which point resentment will kick in as people start to become excluded from car ownership? I'm not posting this particular point as a rebuttal to your comments PI because I mostly agree with you; just musing as to what will happen as the inevitable price increases shove people out of their cars. |
I see it pretty much the same way. Its the nature of the type of economy we have, debt based which relies on constant consumption and commodification to keep the debt pyramid going, which causes pollution and maybe is contributing to global climate change. Many of the same people who promote globalization are promoting anthropological GW and carbon taxes. It's typically the little man who gets screwed the most, while corporations and their share holders make a bundle trading on the new carbon credit market http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_credit
For instance, Al Gore, Blair, Brown, all strong proponents of globalization (violently so, like in Iraq), and also of purely Anthropological GW (AGW).
To paraphrase what the young Rothschild said recently, "there are a lot of opportunities to make profits with all this". It just has this weird fuzzy 'Bono' surrealness to it all.
The certitude that it is purely man made, is just as absurd as it is to say with certitude that it is not. I agree with the criticisms of big oil sponsored research into GW, but when it comes down to it, nearly all scientific funding comes from corporations and wealthy individuals via foundations who ultimately control scientific & other academic research in general.
If it really is man made, shouldnt there be more fundamental solutions than taxing continual consumption, and taxing the air we breathe? But if we all stopped continually consuming everyone would be up shite alley, since we are pretty much reliant on the system whose lifeblood is GDP & globalization and continual debt. So there is this two-facedness about it all.
One the one hand, it's like keep consuming, but on the other it's we'll need to tax you more now, when the real problem is the continual consumption & commodification itself.
Greg Palast's article about a secret dossier from New Labour insider Peter Mandelsohn is revealing:
| Quote: | Here was a chilling combination of Mendelsohn, Mandelson and Nietzsche. “AN OLD WORLD IS DISAPPEARING AND A NEW ONE EMERGING,” he announced in upper case. In the “Passing World” were “ideology” and “conviction” - which would now be replaced by “Pragmatism” and “Consumption.” “Buying” would replace “Belief.”
And ultimately, in this Brave New Labour World, style was all: “WHAT YOU DO,” wrote Mendelsohn, was passé, replaced by, “HOW YOU DO IT." |
http://www.gregpalast.com/browns-fixer-explains-how-its-donejon-mendelsohn-and-the-secret-tape/
The same people who want a carbon tax on families.
Last edited by Brentos on Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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et in Arcadia ego
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 3858
Location: The Void
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| professorpan wrote: | | The oil industry made a record $101 billion profit in 2006. |
Exactly.
Cheers.
_________________
"He checks out, by the way, to the best of my ability to check him out. Lives in GA, formerly lived in Miami, etc. " - Dream's End |
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slow_dazzle
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1121
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: PI - just for the record |
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I spent five years in engineering, including a year welding steel, (Coded to 6G pipe standard FWIW) before I went to university. I might be picking you up wrong in which case I apologise.
I haven't always been part of the intelligensia class. So I see it from both sides; most people don't.
_________________
On behalf of the future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.
John Perry Barlow - A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace |
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populistindependent
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 919
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: PI - just for the record |
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| slow_dazzle wrote: | I spent five years in engineering, including a year welding steel, (Coded to 6G pipe standard FWIW) before I went to university. I might be picking you up wrong in which case I apologise.
I haven't always been part of the intelligensia class. So I see it from both sides; most people don't. |
Yes, I figured that. Same with me, except I never did leave the blue collar world for long. |
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populistindependent
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 919
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: OK PI - slack narrative from me |
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| Brentos wrote: | | Many of the same people who promote globalization are promoting anthropological GW and carbon taxes. It's typically the little man who gets screwed the most, while corporations and their share holders make a bundle... |
That's it, yes. Can't overlook that.
The certitude that it is purely man made, is just as absurd as it is to say with certitude that it is not.
Absolutely.
| Quote: | | I agree with the criticisms of big oil sponsored research into GW, but when it comes down to it, nearly all scientific funding comes from corporations and wealthy individuals via foundations who ultimately control scientific & other academic research in general. |
That is the reality. Everything in this culture takes money to accomplish, money dicates the agenda everywhere in all things, things are only valued in terms of money, money rules all of our lives, and those with the money - well, they have the money. A lot of it. Most of it.
| Quote: | | If it really is man made, shouldnt there be more fundamental solutions than taxing continual consumption, and taxing the air we breathe? |
Yes. Of course. Why are we always being steered into only one way of looking at the challenge, one solution?
| Quote: | | One the one hand, it's like keep consuming, but on the other it's we'll need to tax you more now, when the real problem is the continual consumption & commodification itself. |
Yes, the message is self-contradictory. That is because the two goals - preserving the system, and alleviating the inevitable consequences of the system - are irreconcilable.
| Quote: | | “AN OLD WORLD IS DISAPPEARING AND A NEW ONE EMERGING,” he announced in upper case. In the “Passing World” were “ideology” and “conviction” - which would now be replaced by “Pragmatism” and “Consumption.” “Buying” would replace “Belief.” |
That is chilling, and very revealing. |
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CouldBe
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: PrisonPlanet |
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Sorry if I am wrong here, but doesn't PrisonPlanet love to come out with man-made global warming is a hoax articles? If so, that makes me wonder about that website.
If 95% of scientists say that we are to blame, I am gonna trust them, not the 5% working for the interests contributing to the problem. I definitely am not gonna be going to PrisonPlanet for the truth on climate change issues. |
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slimmouse
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 3568
Location: within YOU.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: PrisonPlanet |
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sigh.......
anyone answered my question yet ? 
_________________
The whole of our reality is manifested by the geometrics of space and time |
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Brentos
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: OK PI - slack narrative from me |
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| populistindependent wrote: |
That is the reality. Everything in this culture takes money to accomplish, money dicates the agenda everywhere in all things, things are only valued in terms of money, money rules all of our lives, and those with the money - well, they have the money. A lot of it. Most of it.
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I would like to think that there is a monetary system, way of doing trade or whatever, which is beneficial to everyone, but which doesn't exclude individualism. Money merely as an asset, rather than an objective. Debt free money backed by labour and other assets beneficial to society (like hydroelectric dams say), rather than beneficial merely to those who can lend and not be productive. It would require a ton of altruism and belief though.
Debt based money (gold included) sets up a system where rich people lend poorer people money, in which they must labour to pay off at interest, which makes money the objective for everyone, and creates the ever growing pyramid (ponzi scheme). GDP, consumption, globalization, pollution, wars, possibly global warming are all symptoms of this. I've read some articles and comments from really bright people discussing the nature of money, and alternative monetary systems, and it is not a trivial matter and requires a lot of imagination. Perhaps we do have the best of all worlds after all, and alternate systems belie man's true nature. I think it's a question of materialism again, and values. Pure materialists can rationalize greed easier and look at themselves as gods easier (in absence of a 'higher' authority), both in religion, politics and economics.
| Quote: |
Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power, and chattel slavery abolished. This, I and my European friends are in favor of, for slavery is but the owning of labor, and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan, led on by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. . . . The great debt that capitalists will see to it is made out of the war must be used to control the value of money. To accomplish this, the Government bonds must be used as a banking basis (national debt). . . . We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States to make this recommendation. It will not do to allow greenbacks (debt free money controlled by congress 'the people' ), as they are called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that, but we can control the bonds and through them the bank issues. |
"Hazard Circular" circulated to U. S. banks during the campaign for the National Bank Acts during the Civil War.
These wishes came true in 1913, in which the US could then 'afford' to mobilize & fight in the Great War which happened to kick off a year later. |
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theeKultleeder
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: PrisonPlanet |
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| CouldBe wrote: | Sorry if I am wrong here, but doesn't PrisonPlanet love to come out with man-made global warming is a hoax articles? If so, that makes me wonder about that website.
If 95% of scientists say that we are to blame, I am gonna trust them, not the 5% working for the interests contributing to the problem. I definitely am not gonna be going to PrisonPlanet for the truth on climate change issues. |
You answered your own question.
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