Judges liken terror laws to Nazi Germany

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Judges liken terror laws to Nazi Germany

Postby eric144 » Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:36 am

Judges liken terror laws to Nazi Germany<br><br><br>London Independent / Marie Woolf, Raymond Whitaker and Severin Carrell | 16 Oct 2005<br><br>A powerful coalition of judges, senior lawyers and politicians has warned that the Government is undermining freedoms citizens have taken for granted for centuries and that Britain risks drifting towards a police state. One of the country's most eminent judges has said that undermining the independence of the courts has frightening parallels with Nazi Germany. <br><br>Senior legal figures are worried that "inalienable rights" could swiftly disappear unless Tony Blair ceases attacking the judiciary and freedoms enshrined in the Human Rights Act.<br><br>Lord Ackner, a former law lord, said there was a contradiction between the Government's efforts to separate Parliament and the judiciary through the creation of a supreme court, and its instinct for directing judges how to behave. He cautioned against "meddling" by politicians in the way the courts operate.<br><br>"I think it is terribly important there should not be this apparent battle between the executive and the judiciary. The judiciary has been put there by Parliament in order to ensure that the executive acts lawfully. If we take that away from the judiciary we are really apeing what happened in Nazi Germany," he said.<br><br>Lord Ackner added that the Government's proposals to hold terrorist suspects for three months without charge were overblown. "The police have made a case for extending the two weeks but to extend it to three months is excessive."<br><br>Lord Lester QC, a leading human rights lawyer, expressed concern that the Government was flouting human rights law and meddling with the courts.<br><br>"If the Prime Minister and other members of the Government continue to threaten to undermine the Human Rights Act and interfere with judicial independence we shall have to secure our basic human rights and freedoms with a written constitution," he said.<br><br>Lord Carlile, a deputy High Court judge, warned against the whittling away of historic civil liberties. "We have to be acute about protecting what is taken for granted as inalienable rights. In the United States the Patriot Act included a system whereby a witness to a terrorist incident can be detained for up to a year. This is in the land of the free."<br><br>The senior barrister remarked that judges had now replaced MPs as the defenders of basic human rights.<br><br>"People use d to look to their MPs as the first port of call to deal with any perceived injustice by the executive. Now there is an increasing tendency for people to look to the judges to protect their liberties," he said.<br><br>Mark Oaten, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman, said Tony Blair was transforming Britain into an authoritarian state. "In eight years he has dismantled centuries of judicial protection. Britain's reputation as the world's most tolerant nation is now under threat," he said.<br><br>If Mr Blair's proposed terror legislation was unamended, said Anthony Scrivener QC, "Britain would be a significant step closer to a police state". The Prime Minister spoke of "summary justice", said the lawyer: "It would be better named street justice."<br><br>This week the Law Lords will consider whether evidence obtained under torture abroad should be admissible in British courts. Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said admitting such evidence would undermine one of Britain's basic freedoms.<br><br>"The Prime Minister is trying in his own words to try to tear up the rules of the game," she said. "The rules of liberal democracy are about no torture, free speech and fair trials. Every time he denigrates these he undermines the fabric of our society." <br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article320005.ece">news.independent.co.uk/uk...320005.ece</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Last year I went on a binge...

Postby banned » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:07 am

...of reading books about the Nazi rise to power from the old classics like Shirer's book to brand new stuff. I had known the rough outlines but it still opened my eyes. One book was about the different ways the Nazis locked down control of all societal institutions, another focussed just on one town, yet another on just one guy who was a boy in Hitlerjugend and at the very end of the war, still only a teenager, joined the Army.<br><br>While I found many similarities and parallels (Reichstag Fire/9/11, Enabling Act/USAPATRIOT Act, Homeland Security/Gestapo) there were several striking differences that I think--hope--will make it less likely we follow Germany of that era all the way down the same road.<br><br>One is that Germany, despite having been cobbled together from many different principalities, was homogenous in being overwhelmingly ethnically Germanic, and the "outlander" Germans Hitler wanted to bring into the Reich identified strongly with their ethnicity. The US is the most heterogenous society on earth. Sure, we have the red/blue state difference, but we're not all red or blue marbles in red or blue states. Even within cities, the inner city might be liberal Democrat and the 'burbs Republican. Nazism made use of preexisting "Volkish" ideology and traditional antisemitism. Sure the US has its own history of yob politics and bigotry, but outside of the south, it doesn't have the same hold on people. Germany was basically a Christian country divided between Lutherans and Catholics, with a minority of Jews. Unless you live in a real backwater, open any phone book in the US and look at the plethora of religions--everything from Baptist to Bahai.<br><br>Germany also was always a strongly authoritarian nation. The US, again, has that strain, but it has other equally strong strains. Americans are descended from rebels and malcontents and while they often may bluster about telling other people what rights they can and can't have, they get seriously pissed if you turn it around on THEM. "Register them Meskins, but I ain't givin' you MY name, bub."<br><br>Germany was also a relatively compact country with a small judiciary. I'm not saying it's impossible, but gaining control of every judge from SCOTUS to the justice of the peace in Snow Hill Holler West Virginny is a different matter. Same with the higher educational system. I sure wouldn't want to be the one to try to impose 'ideological purity' on every college campus in the country. What would fly at Bob Jones U. ain't going to fly at Brandeis.<br><br>Unfortunately, while I came to the conclusion that the neocons might be naive in following the Nazi playbook in such a vastly different country, I also realized they don't have to. You don't have to have that kind of control, if most people are either caught up in their own lives of self aggrandizement, or are too poor to have energy for anything but bare survival, or, as is happening now, creating a society in which there isn't much of a middle class so you have the fat cats at one end who aren't going to object because they're getting phat stuff, and at the other end the poor whose plight worsens constantly and whose numbers are steadily increased as people in the middle class slide down into poverty.<br><br>It's hard to control 50 thinking, independent minded, activism oriented people. It's easy to buy off 50 greedheads, or tyrannize over 50 demoralized souls, or control 25 of each (since the 25 collaborators are happy to help you oppress the 25 have-nots.)<br><br>In 2000 BEFORE the election I said that the reason a fanatical minority could not capture national office was because the 'middle' in the US was so big and the whack jobs confined to the extreme ends of the spectrum. I said that because for a variety of reasons, I hadn't really paid much attention to what was happening in my country for about ten years. (One reason was I didn't watch television or read the mainstream newspapers, another that I live in the SF Bay Area which only generalizes sociologically to...er...the SF Bay Area, another that I had a high tech job that kept me so obsessed with work that I had like one day a week to relax and I spent it doing things like getting a massage and hot tub or watching old black and white classic movies to unwind. Coincidentally I left my job right before the election, and my 'take' on it was that of someone who had basically lived in a cave for half a decade. I remember reading an article about George W. Bush and going completely bonkers at what a dangerous moron he was, suddenly sending out daily emails and haranguing my friends and acquaintances that we COULD not let this guy into office.<br><br>I woke too late.<br><br>However, obviously I wasn't alone. Too many of us didn't realize our country had become a place where Bush v. Gore could happen and everybody just go "Oh OK" or at worst "What a pisser!" <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Last year I went on a binge...

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:53 am

Carl Jung said that the problem with Americans that makes them so vulnerable to fascism is their lack of individuality and love for systems and regimentation. Nowadays, the machine/sytem like nature of corporate life and language which large numbers of people are involved with since the country has been Walmarted.<br><br>They also have a respect for authority that was wiped out in Britain by a combinaton of Monty Python like comedy (eg Spitting Image) and Punk. If the Sex Pistols had been American, they would have been eliminated long before thy got to the charts.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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egads

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:04 am

actually sex pistols records have always sold better here than they did in the UK(per capita). <br>We love anarchic imagery. it sells well.<br><br>The Americans are dumb enough to agree to fight stupid wars. The British are apathetic enough to not agree to fight stupid wars and to fight them anyway.<br><br>At least America actually thinks its doing the right thing when it does something. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: egads

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:03 am

"actually sex pistols records have always sold better here than they did in the UK(per capita). <br>We love anarchic imagery. it sells well."<br><br>Sorrry, incredibly bad bluff/lie.<br><br><br>"The British are apathetic enough to not agree to fight stupid wars and to fight them anyway."<br><br>There were MUCH bigger demonstrations against the war in Britain than America.<br><br><br>"At least America actually thinks its doing the right thing when it does something. "<br><br>That's because America has the poorest public education system in the developed world. It's a combination of narcissistic hubris and downright stupidity. <p></p><i></i>
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ads

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:24 am

Tis true. Lots of "edgy" things sell exceedingly well in America. We like our entertainment to be desensetizing and demoralizing if at all possible, and an air of rebellion is always welcome. It allows us to feel as if we are rebellious ourselves.<br><br>And Demonstrations were my point friend. If you had bigger demonstrations, your democracy should have chosen a policy that reflected public opinion on the whole, which it didn't.<br><br>Duh.<br><br>Ours did. The fact that we're stupid is irrelevant to this point. Our government caved in because the people caved in.<br><br>Your government caved in because it felt like it, and your people accepted this. Ours wouldn't have. If we hadn't been dumb enough to support the war, they'd have lied to us and made us think we did.<br><br>They don't even try to manipulate British people anymore, because it is no longer neccessary.<br><br>They were broken a long time ago.<br><br>Americans don't need to be broken, as they were bred domestic. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ads

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:47 am

The sex pistols didn't sell in America, the tour was a total disaster and they split for good in San Francisco. "Ever felt cheated ?" was the magnificent full stop to the Pistols.<br><br>Britain doesn't have a democracy, it's an American occupied satellite since Margaret Thatcher, ruled by obermeinfeuhrer Rupert Murdoch. That's deadly serious. Of course, so is America now which just as pathetic in some ways.<br><br>"They don't even try to manipulate British people anymore, because it is no longer neccessary.<br><br>They were broken a long time ago"<br><br>That's true, the unions broken in the 1980's by the forces of American fascism again (Murdoch). There was also mortgages for the working classes, consumerism and women in the workforce (a disaster for class politics).<br><br>"Americans don't need to be broken, as they were bred domestic"<br><br>That's an amazing statement and no doubt completely true. They were domesticated quite deliberately by Edward Bernays and Madison Avenue (brainwashing). The controllers also made great fortunes out of it that has allowed them to attempt the takeover of the whole orld.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Their is nothing worng...

Postby banned » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:52 pm

...with the pubic schools in Ammerica.<br><br>I gradauted from pubic high school and I ken reed at a forth grade level so take that mr. smarti-pants.<br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>No, eric, you're right, any country whose educational system graduates people from 12th grade who can't spell, can't write two grammatical sentences back to back, can't generate or follow a logical argument, never read a book after they are no longer forced to in a class, can't find Scotland on a map, and can't make change, has committed suicide.<br><br>Oh, and at the high end we tolerated an intellectually crippling virus called "poststructuralism" to destroy or maim most academic disciplines too.<br><br>Stick a fork in us, we're done. <p></p><i></i>
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