MK is of Nazi Project Paperclip derivation

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Clarification needed

Postby The Omega Man » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:40 am

Where are you going with this pattern Dreams End? You're just cutting and pasting a response that goes nowhere, so you do need to clarify your position to get your point across. Hopefully your contribution will be of a constructive nature, and aid in the progression of the inquiry from which we are all seeking elusive answers. I see these discussion board issues as committed people legitimately seeking answers to the maladies that have been inflicted upon us and the populace at large. We all contribute evidence or testimony in one forum to unite minds, albeit temporarily, towards the goal of getting to the core truth of matters. It's a road that is fraught with different turns, surprises and dead ends but together we can navigate the path towards a mutually respectful and just conclusion. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Clarification needed

Postby Dreams End » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:01 am

How about this for clarity:<br><br>Theories about Hitler = Rothschild are bullshit...AND...they are rightwing, antiSemitic garbage as well. <br><br>I understand that many of Icke's (and Makow's) fans, to name but two purveyors of this stuff, are likely sincere in their beliefs and have nothing at all against Jews...that's not the point. It is the lack of awareness of the genesis of these theories, the history of rightwing conspiracy theory and the circles from which it still emanates that is at issue. If nothing else, concern for accuracy should make one cautious about embracing such people...but at bottom, it's more of the cryptofascist garbage that is so prevalent in conspiracy theory. By the way, since I do accept a lot of conspiracy theory...my concern is that it clutters the issue, not that it always points to things that aren't true in totality. <br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Clarification needed

Postby 4911 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:32 pm

MK<br><br>Menschen Kontrolle?<br><br><br>Massen Kontrolle?<br><br><br>(menschen are people)<br>(massen are masses)<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Pressing onward

Postby The Omega Man » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:28 pm

4911 - Very good possibilities but the word Kontrolle would still be Steuerung. I'm starting to lean towards a possible U.S. military/intelligence Latin designation as the ULTRA is in english. So I'm torn between them using German MK as an homage to their compatriots or the U.S. miltary cryptonym. We're going to need an investigatory dialectic in the Sherlock Holmes tradition to decipher this.<br><br>Dreams End - I thoroughly disagree with the application of your opinion in this context, as the information quoted came from here: <br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CRPF1K/qid=1149530883/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-3656452-0576143?s=books&v=glance&n=283155">The Mind of Adolph Hitler by Walter C. Langer</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->. It didn't come from infowars.com, rense.com, The Anti-semite Digest or the skinhead roundtable. So I think before you summarily shoot down someone's information, you should at least examine where they are coming from, as a number of us have long since graduated Conspiracy 101. Yes there are individuals that do poison their work with personal agendas, but they are fairly transparent to the trained eye and you can further ascertain this from their history of writings. However, I absolutely believe that there is a strong connection between the Rothschild family and the Nazi party that wasn't always in contradiction. Business is as they say is business, nothing personal. If there isn't any truth to this matter than why did Hitler kill Dolfuss who had a proverbial ace up his sleeve? I would challenge you to prove your contrary allegations that you've posited here. If they are of merit I'll be the first to thank you for the edification and make the necessary retractions and subsequent research adjustments. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=theomegaman@rigorousintuition>The Omega Man</A> at: 6/5/06 1:33 pm<br></i>
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Re: Pressing onward

Postby 4911 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:09 pm

Omega Man<br><br>I speak german fluently (presently live & work in Munich, grew up speaking german english spanish & french) Not to get into a dispute here, but its plausible and fits, to me. Steuerung also falls under Kontrolle, but precisely it means "steering"...even though it is often used as a synonim for the word Kontrolle...such as for example "Fernsteuerung," which translates into remote control. But i think cuz of the K, it would make sense...but hey thats just my opinion. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=4911>4911</A> at: 6/5/06 2:28 pm<br></i>
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you must be new here.

Postby slimmouse » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:30 pm

<br> You must be new here Omega Man.<br><br> <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So I think before you summarily shoot down someone's information, you should at least examine where they are coming from, as a number of us have long since graduated Conspiracy 101.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Dreams end has spent much of his life on this forum dissing Icke and Makow.<br><br> Dont mention the Rothschilds, because that means your a rabid antisemite.<br><br> Interestingly enough, I was once one of those people suspected of having a ear bitten copy of mein Kampf somewhere. But Dont dare mention the fact that the founders of Bnai Brith( The Warburgs and the Sulzbergs) - Who later morphed into the ADL helped enormously in the financing of Hitler to power. That makes you some kind of racist in his book.<br><br> Dreams End once explained that he was once persecuted by the ADL. If you cant beat em, Join em I guess.<br><br> The fact that Ive been telling him, along with Mr Icke ( courtesy of his Jewish publishers) that this religion game is nothing but a control mechanism anyways, also appears insignificant. <p></p><i></i>
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Kudos

Postby The Omega Man » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:05 pm

Sincere thanks 4911 with respect to your multi-linguistics, your words are duly noted, there's nothing to dispute and you are correct in your assertions. Yours I feel has been the closest to sleuthing out the possibilities of this MK enigma. Your contribution should stand as the barometer until a more definitive answer can be manifested from any and all who wish to solve this. It really shouldn't be difficult for they follow a pattern of logic and if we combine this with their background it is in our grasp to decipher it. Perhaps this would fall within the skills of a computer hacker who uses input of backround, psychological profiles of the key players and their favorite objects, things, and environment, to deciper passwords and codes. It's in our face mocking us with their 'Revelation of the Method' pathology.<br><br>Slimmouse - I surmised as much, it's amazing what falls out once you begin beating the dirt out of a filthy rug. Let the truth be told though the heavens fall. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=theomegaman@rigorousintuition>The Omega Man</A> at: 6/5/06 4:09 pm<br></i>
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Re: Kudos

Postby 4911 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:39 pm

If you look at the way the germans used to and still label their military equipment (for example MG-42, acronym for the heavy machinegun they used in WWII derived from the words Maschinen Gewehr-42, or even P-38 a Pistol etc etc they use abbreviations. ) America nowadays seems to do the exact same thing - F-16 , Fighter 16, M-16 Machinegun 16, etc etc...there are a lot of similarities between the essence of the nomenclature.) Actually I think an M-4 rifle isnt fully automatic, therefor it wouldnt qualify as a machinegun, per se. So maybe Im wrong.<br><br>In fact I heard the americans took apart the german mil system after WWII and thought "wow" and superimposed alot of that onto their own, such as for example the intel services etc etc using it as a model.<br><br>Go figure.<br>PS whether militaries all over the world do this abreviation thing i dunno. This is just a um coincidence that I stumbled across..<br><br>well, what does the A in AK-47 stand for? Guy who invented the gun was called Kalashnikov...was his first name Anton or something? (hence AK?) Does anyone know how to say machinegun in russian, for example? I think the russians name their stuff after the people who invented it, rather than what those pieces of equipment actually ARE. Like a SU-27 was named after some dude called Sukhoy or something. (an SU-27 is a plane) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=4911>4911</A> at: 6/5/06 7:00 pm<br></i>
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Re: you must be new here.

Postby Dreams End » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:21 pm

I'm removing this. The book I downloaded is the wrong book. Apologies to Omega Man and to those who may have read this. I'll look for the Langer book...<br><br>And yet, as I look at the relevant passage as quoted by Mae Brussel here:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>There is a great deal of confusion in studying Hitler's family tree. Much of this is due to the fact that the name has been spelled in various ways: Hitler, Hidler, Hiedler, and Huettler. It seems reasonable to suppose, however, that it is fundamentally the same name spelled in various ways by different members of what was basically an illiterate peasant family. Adolf Hitler himself signed his name Hittler on the first Party membership blanks, and his sister usually spells her name as Hiedler. Another element of confusion is introduced by the fact that Adolf's mother's mother was also named Hitler, which later became the family name of his father. Some of this confusion is dissipated, however, when we realize that Adolf's parents had a common ancestor (father's grandfather and mother's great-grandfather), an inhabitant of the culturally backward Waldviertel district of Austria.<br> Adolf's father, Alois Hitler, was the illegitimate son of Maria Anna Schicklgruber. It is generally supposed that the father of Alois Hitler was a Johann Georg Hiedler, a miller's assistant. Alois, however, was not legitimized, and he bore his mother's name until he was forty years of age when he changed it to Hitler. Just why this was done is not clear, but it is generally said among the villagers that it was necessary in order to obtain a legacy. Where the legacy came from is unknown. One could suppose that Johann Georg Hiedler relented on his deathbed and left an inheritance to his illegitimate son together with his name. It seems strange, however, that he did not legitimize the son when he married Anna Schicklgruber thirty-five years earlier. Why the son chose to take the name Hitler instead of Hiedler, if this is the case, is also a mystery that has remained unsolved. Unfortunately, the date of the death of Hiedler has not been established, and consequently we are unable to relate these two events in time. A peculiar series of events, prior to Hitler's birth, furnishes plenty of food for speculation.<br> There are some people who seriously doubt that Johann Georg Hiedler was the father of Alois. Thyssen and Koehler, for example, claim that Chancellor Dollfuss had ordered the Austrian police to conduct a thorough investigation into the Hitler family. As a result of this investigation a secret document was prepared that proved that Maria Anna Schicklgruber was living in Vienna at the time she conceived. At that time she was employed as a servant in the home of Baron Rothschild. As soon as the family discovered her pregnancy she was sent back to her home in Spital where Alois was born. If it is true that one of the Rothschilds is the real father of Alois Hitler, it would make Adolf a quarter Jew. According to these sources, Adolf Hitler knew of the existence of this document and the incriminating evidence it contained. In order to obtain it he precipitated events in Austria and initiated the assassination of Dollfuss. According to this story, he failed to obtain the document at that time since Dollfuss had secreted it and had told Schuschnigg of its whereabouts so that in the event of his death the independence of Austria would remain assured. Several stories of this general character are in circulation.<br> Those who lend credence to this story point out several factors that seem to favor its plausibility.<br><br> 1. That it is unlikely that the miller's assistant in a small village in this district would have very much to leave in the form of a legacy.<br> 2. That it is strange that Johann Hiedler should not claim the boy until thirty-five years after he had married the mother and the mother had died.<br> 3. That if the legacy were left by Hiedler on the condition that Alois take his name, it would not have been possible for him to change it to Hitler.<br> 4. That the intelligence and behavior of Alois, as well as that of his two sons, is completely out of keeping with that usually found in Austrian peasant families. They point out that their ambitiousness and extraordinary political intuition are much more in harmony with the Rothschild tradition.<br> 5. That Alois Schicklgruber left his home village at an early age to seek his fortune in Vienna where his mother had worked.<br> 6. That it would be peculiar for Alois Hitler, while working as a customs official in Braunau, to choose a Jew named Print, of Vienna, to act as Adolf's godfather unless he felt some kinship with the Jews himself.<br><br> This is certainly a very intriguing hypothesis, and much of Adolf's later behavior could be explained in rather easy terms on this basis. However, it is not absolutely necessary to assume that he has Jewish blood in his veins in order to make a comprehensive picture of his character with its manifold traits and sentiments. From a purely scientifc point of view, therefore, it is sounder not to base our reconstruction on such slim evidence but to seek firmer foundations. Nevertheless, we can leave it as a possibility that requires further verification.<br> In any event Maria Anna Schicklgruber died when Alois was five years of age. When he was thirteen he left the Waldviertel and went to Vienna where he learned to be a cobbler. The next twenty-three years of his life are largely unaccounted for. It seems probable that during this time he joined the army and had perhaps been advanced to the rank of noncommissioned officer. His service in the army may have helped him to enter the Civil Service as Zollamtsoffizial later on.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>aside from noting his own characterization of this theory as being on "slim foundations" it borrows language directly from the book I downloaded from a Wikipedia link on Langer (hence the confusion.) this was the book called Analysis of the Personality of Adolph Hitler by Henry Murray. Notice this similar language from this book (available <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/hitler/">here</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->)<br><br>(and yes, I am typing from the pdf of the original typewritten document. It's from the page marked 93 in the text and is page 12 of section 3 of the downloaded pdf.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Some of the confusion that has arisen in regard to Hitler's forebears disappears as soon as we realize the name Hitler has been variously spelled - Hidler, Hiedler, Huettler - by different members of the same illiterate peasant family. Adolf Hitler's parents were both descended from one Hitler (father's grandfater and mother's great-grandfather), an inhabitant of the culturally backward Waldviertel district, Upper Austria. <br><br><br>-----brief snip-----<br><br>According to an inquiry ordered by the Austrian Chancellor, Dollfull, Maria Anne Schicklgruber became pregnant during her employment as a servant in a Jewish Viennese family. For this reason she was sent back to her home in the country. If this is true, Alois Hitler may have been half Jewish. The fact that he selected a Jew, Herr Prinz of Vienna, to be the godfather of his son Adolf, is in line with this hypothesis.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The "Thyssen" referred to in the Langer quote is Fritz thyssen, German industrialist who fled Germany and claimed to have seen the Austrian documents. The story was later confirmed Hansjurgen Koehler who wrote a book called "Hitler's Shadow over the World." Koehler was Gestapo? Anybody know anything about him? You don't publish a book about Hitler being Jewish while in the Gestapo and live. I can't find anything else about the book or Koehler. <br><br>I see that Langer's report for the OSS is this:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>A Psychological Analysis of Adolph Hitler<br>His Life and Legend<br>Walter C. Langer<br>Office of Strategic Services<br>Washington, D.C.<br><br><br>With the collaboration of-<br>Prof. Henry A. Murr, Harvard Psychological Clinic<br>Dr. Ernst Kris, New School for Social Research<br>Dr. Bertram D. Lawin, New York Psychoanalytic Institute<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I believe the "Murr" should read "Murray". <br><br>Available here:<br><br>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/text/profile-index.html<br>I have to stop now...but it looks like the Rothschild info got added later in the book and was not in the original OSS report. <br><br>In any event, Langer himself calls it "thin" speculation...but I will continue to research the genesis of this legend. I think it is interesting...it's roots coming from the OSS (later CIA) as well as a German industrialist and ex-Gestapo agent. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 6/5/06 9:29 pm<br></i>
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Aw, c'mon, DE, not again.

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:07 pm

You went into unwarranted 'code word accusation'-mode again as you have atleast a few times while I've been here the last year.<br><br>(Relax, Omega Man. It's not you. You just hit a sore spot with DE as others have before you.) <br><br>Please, share your copious data and opinion without implying others are *intentionally peddling* "cryptofascist garbage" like villains X and Y.<br><br>You wrote "my concern is that it clutters the issue" and " likely sincere in their beliefs and have nothing at all against Jews...that's not the point" but your other hostile tone and 'I'm right-you-lose-so-apologize-one-upsman-ship' REALLY sandbags the discussion and clutters the issue.<br><br>(on edit:: I see corrections and adjustments have been made. I've always noted you were sincere and honest about what you knew, if sometimes 'over-sincere.')<br><br>DE, you have great knowledge and analysis to share. I always look forward to reading your posts despite going through this myself with you. (Having now read more of your posts I know why the topic I stepped in set you off and then set proldic off even worse.) <br><br>But any negative emotional tone acts like a nuclear bomb's emg pulse shorting out data sharing in a discussion thread or out in the world-wide world, which is why cointelpro uses emotional triggers to implode people and groups. It works so easily, like peeing in the punch and souring the party.<br><br>Well, I am glad I stopped in to this thread to share the love. lol.<br><br>Anyone remember when a hyper-nationalist speech of Hitler's was published as as an op-ed or lte in Haaretz? Jerusalem Post? under the byline of Shicklegruber! Woa! Now that's a helluva way to make a point.<br><br>It took a while for outrage to build as people realized it was Hitler's family name and an excerpt of one of his speeches to point out how bellicose the right-wing in Israel had become.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 6/5/06 9:19 pm<br></i>
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Perpetual motion

Postby The Omega Man » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:34 am

Thanks Hugh, my goal in this is to stay focused upon the investigation without subjective distractions. I really want to foster a professional detective team methodology similar to perhaps Jim Garrison's crew. Where we all contribute our ideas, logical speculations and evidence into a unified field of inquiry. This is what brings about results and successful conclusions. <br><br>Now back to the discussion at hand. 4911, I'm definitely seeing a pattern in your reasoning and I think you are on to something with the U.S. military adopting the German military naming conventions. BTW, Kalashnikov's first name was Mikhail and AK-47 stands for <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Automat Kalashnikova 1947</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. This whole thing has to be approached from the deductive reasoning you are sharing with us, if we want to unravel this crytonym.<br><br>Dreams End: Apology accepted and thanks for your positive contribution to this project, we need as many intelligent hands on deck to steer this ship to shore. You stated: <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The "Thyssen" referred to in the Langer quote is Fritz thyssen, German industrialist who fled Germany and claimed to have seen the Austrian documents. The story was later confirmed Hansjurgen Koehler who wrote a book called "Hitler's Shadow over the World." Koehler was Gestapo? Anybody know anything about him? You don't publish a book about Hitler being Jewish while in the Gestapo and live. I can't find anything else about the book or Koehler. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> and this is something I felt was a genuine tributary in tracking down this info. However, in my prioritization I put it on the back burner. I appreciate your commitment to following up on the info, I would just ask that we establish a new discussion thread to pursue it, as I really want to get back to my original line of inquiry regarding the definition of the MK in MK-ULTRA. I'm sure that all those concerned, myself included, will be more than happy to put forth our energies into the case. I do however want to caution that the OSS was responsible for the commission of this report and that they were very chummy with the goosesteppers. So prudence would dictate cross verification as you indicated with Thyssen and Koehler's works that might exist. This would take some legwork to a university library that might house something literary of this nature, perhaps even in German or Russian. The internet has become too obstructively compartmentalized for this type of job I fear. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Perpetual motion

Postby Dreams End » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:15 am

I don't want to be misconstrued here. The apology was for thinking that Omega Man was claiming a citation that was not correct. However, in the process of correcting the error, I realized that this is interesting territory indeed. When you have the genesis of one of the prime rightwing conpsiracy theories (and it definitely is that) coming from the OSS and the German industrialist Fritz Thyssen who, with Prescott Bush's help, basically bankrolled the Nazis, you have caught my interest. <br><br>this theory of Rothschild-Hitler connection comes exclusively from Thyssen and one other. I will start a new thread as it is the first time I've ever been able to track down the starting point of one of these stories. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Perpetual motion

Postby havanagilla » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:41 am

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Israeli Wiki on this issue</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. <br>The speculation that Hitler's grandfather was Jewish is traced to Hans Frank, the Polish governor and Hitler's lawyer. He wrote in his memoirs that Hitler asked him to investigate his own ancestry, following "extortions" by his nephew to blow up his jewish blood. Frank says he found out that his grandmother worked for a Jewish family in Graetz, by the name of Frankenberger and that he obtained correspondence between the grandmother and her previous employers regarding payments of some sort of support/allimony, although no mention of a child.<br><br> However, these documents were never presented by Frank, and no such family is registered in that city (which had a ban on Jews, anyway). None of these claims were ever proven, including the interest by Hiterl's nephew. <br>The conclusion in Israeli wiki is that Frank's allegations are unfounded and resulted from his condition prior to being executed, and his wish to lay blame over Hitler's reign on somehting Jewish. <br>---<br>No mention of Rothchild. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Perpetual motion

Postby Dreams End » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:47 am

Hava...I started a separate thread on this...well more directly about Rothschild. I mentioned the Gratz business...though I guess maybe even that doesn't hold up. Anyway...we can move all this over there. I'm in the middle of the second post..have a look at the first but the whole thing isn't finished yet . <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Kudos

Postby Sepka » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:17 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you look at the way the germans used to and still label their military equipment (for example MG-42, acronym for the heavy machinegun they used in WWII derived from the words Maschinen Gewehr-42, or even P-38 a Pistol etc etc they use abbreviations. ) America nowadays seems to do the exact same thing - F-16 , Fighter 16, M-16 Machinegun 16, etc etc...there are a lot of similarities between the essence of the nomenclature.) Actually I think an M-4 rifle isnt fully automatic, therefor it wouldnt qualify as a machinegun, per se.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>The "M" in American military designations stands for "model". The following number used to designate the year the item was adopted into use, but at some point before WWII became just a series number. E.g. the Garand rifle (the one you see in WWII movies) was originally the M1903, but became the M1. Curiously, the M1911A1 pistol (the '.45') kept its old-style designation. No-one seems to know why.<br><br>The 'M' system may have originally been adopted from the Germans (I don't know) but it was in use from at least the 1830s, if not before.<br><br>M16's an assault rifle, actually. The older ones had a full-auto feature, but they quit making that type years ago, as it proved to be more of a hindrance than a help on the typical battlefield. The M4 is a semi-auto carbine, but the M4A1 close assault variant can fire in full automatic, which probably qualifies it as a 'machine gun' in popular parlance.<br><br>The Air Force does things differently, of course, and designates their plane types by letters.<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Does anyone know how to say machinegun in russian, for example?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>'AK-47' stands for 'Automat Kalashnikova', I believe. I'm guessing 'automat' covers any sort of automatic weapon, but I don't really know.<br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sepka>Sepka</A> at: 6/6/06 3:19 am<br></i>
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