leftwing vs. rightwing conspiracy theory

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"Stop Pedophile Bashing Today!" by ZeroHaven

Postby proldic » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:56 pm

ZeroHaven<br>Registered Member<br>Posts: 133<br>(8/17/05 5:23 pm)<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> <br><br>Stop Pedophile Bashing Today!<br><br>I came across this website. I read all of it. <br>With all of the "anti-semitism" talk lately I can't help but notice that nobody has been complaining and screaming about "anti-pedophiles". People get offended when you say something is "gay" to mean it's bad. Here we have murderers and rapists being labelled as pedophiles! It's bigger than racism and homophobia combined.<br><br>Here's a few selected passages for the hyperlink impaired:<br><br>Pedophiles can be straight, gay, and bisexual-much like the above mentioned orientations. The word pedophile means "child-lover", and that is accurate-since pedophiles love children. Like other orientations, true pedophiles are NOT exclusively interested in children for sex...they are happy in the company of kids, and they love and care about them emotionally in addition to desiring them for sexual activity.<br><br>The media has made pedophiles out to be perverts imposing their will on children. The truth is, to a pedophile, the very IDEA of this is reprehensible. Unlike other adults who do not really respect children, who do not truly feel they own their bodies, pedophiles believe children have a say in their lives, and a voice. <br><br>What pedophiles believe is that children (and adults!) should not be made to feel GUILT over HONEST and POSITIVE sexual activity. They ought to be allowed to express themselves this way, as it is a very powerful, personal part of them that deserves-demands expression! A child can show love to someone he/she cares about without sexual activity. A common example is ordinary parent-child relationships. But a child can also show love to another (possibly another child or an adult that a child loves and cares for) with sex. A child can also do so out of curiosity or pleasure in some cases as well. In either scenario, if he/she chooses to do so, pedophiles believe in protecting that right of free expression and of self-determination.<br><br>Most pedophiles are honest, law abiding (except for the oppressive dictatorship-style pedophile laws!) citizens. They actually tend to be among the more moralistic, decent folk that we have out there. Pedophiles do NOT stalk children. They are not out there trying to molest kids. Remember, pedophile= "child lover", the last thing on a true pedophile mind is to hurt kids, since they love them.<br><br>A movement against pedophiles (who are a VERY small minority) is underway on the net. Free speech right must be held up, but sadly there are people too ignorant to see past their hate and who endorse the idea of us being banned from the web. It is amazing how dense these guys are. If you ban ANYTHING, it leads to tyranny! <br><br>The bottom line is pedophiles must no longer be victims of hate-crimes and censorship for their beliefs. We must unite and stand against intolerance until we are accepted like gays are. My being a pedophile is simply a sexual-orientation, nothing more. It has complications due to the guilt applied by society to pedophiles and kids, but it is still not my fault I am a pedophile-even if it is my choice.<br><br>Here's the real value statement that I assume everyone here can agree with.<br><br>Sure, I may have many disagreements with Neo-Nazi's, for example, but that does NOT entitle me to deny them their freedom of speech! As a matter of fact, that is precisely why I would have to defend their pages! No matter what I think of them, as long as they do not break the law, they must be allowed to speak freely without direct harrassment! <br><br>I highly recommend page 2 as well.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "Stop Pedophile Bashing Today!" by ZeroHaven

Postby Dreams End » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:32 pm

More of the world according to Zero. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm watching a news show where some lady representing a charity is saying..<br>The world should have given us food sooner. There are people here starving because nobody came by and gave us free food.<br>WHAT?!?!<br>I understand charity. I understand helping people out when they're in trouble. They KNEW LAST YEAR they were going to have crop problems.. hell I KNEW last year. C'mon people. If you know a drought is coming, you save up any drops of rain in barrels and buckets and any container you've got. You piss in a bucket and evaporate the water so you can use it again. You don't even spit on the ground, and catch all your tears.<br>You make a greenhouse out of plastic, glass, mud, anything you can get your hands on and you don't throw out the seeds from any of your veggies. You make a garden so you don't fucking STARVE.<br><br>I was a city kid. I didn't know shit about gardening, but now I do because I had to figure it out! I've canned everything that's can-able, and eaten the rest. I thank god that the regional drought hasn't hit here as hard as other places. Some of the plants are coming out severely diseased this year, some are being eaten by bugs. Ashes on the lettuce, straw on the cucumbers, and blessings for the ladybugs so they don't leave. Pick the potato bugs off by hand. Pick up any manure in sight. This is what you do to SURVIVE, this isn't new fangled technology but ancient tradition almost as old as mankind.<br>The world didn't give us free food.<br>The world hasn't done shit for me either. Stop bitching and get to work<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://zhaven.blogspot.com/2005/08/free-food-fuck-off.html">zhaven.blogspot.com/2005/...k-off.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End
 

Re: "Stop Pedophile Bashing Today!" by ZeroHaven

Postby Dreams End » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:38 pm

More on race from Zero Haven: (keep on defending him, GDN01...I think he DOES need it.)<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Immoral outrage<br><br>First the ruling:<br>Iowa wasn't letting felons who completed their sentence vote. Now that's just stupid. Glad they grew their brains back.<br>On the other hand, the statistics they tack on tell a fascinating story:<br><br> Nationally, about 4.7 million people are ineligible to vote because of felony convictions<br> About 1.4 million are black men<br><br><br>Why the hell are over a quarter of felons black men?! Is it because the 'white man' has been holding them down? Or is it because they're going around killing, stealing, raping, and so on? Seriously.<br>A friend of mine was denied crucial medical service because he was white. I was denied college scholarship money because I was white. People with lower grades and better income were getting in because they were - you guessed it - black.<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>They steal, they rape, they kill, they skip school, they sit on welfare, and then scream "oh we're so suppressed" and get special priveledges everywhere I look because they were too stupid to kill the slavedrivers over 200 years ago.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> LISTEN to Will Smith, LISTEN to Cosby. Become equals, instead of the welfare elite.<br><br>Second an observation:<br>It's no wonder Xians are against using condoms and wasting sperm. In the bibble god was killing them off by the thousands. How else were they to replenish the stock? [numbers 25] Of course the population of the Earth has more than doubled in my short lifetime. Jesus fuckin Christ put a condom on you idiots!<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://zhaven.blogspot.com/2005/06/immoral-outrage.html">zhaven.blogspot.com/2005/...trage.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End
 

Re: Leftwing conspiracy theory vs. rightwing conspiracy theo

Postby starroute » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:42 pm

robertdreed --<br><br>I don't quite get how you're equating left-wing conspiracy theory with Marxism. There may be a shared distrust of elites -- but classical Marxists seems to be very heavily into 19th century economic determinism and suspicious of all approaches that ascribe major world events to belief systems, powerful individuals, or anything that is not firmly materialistic in nature.<br><br>In particular, I would quarrel with this paragraph of yours:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Leftist conspiracism scapegoats by class- considering all wealthy people to be in cahoots, united in consciously organizing society for the purpose of oppressing the poor. And, like the right wingers but for different reasons, Left conspiracists commonly indulge in double-bind conundrums, i.e., the Drug War is pursued for purposes of oppressing the poor- but so is Drug Law Reform. Etc. The subtext is that no program or policy that garners any support from the wealthy- or even the bourgeois and smallholders- can ever be anything but a dummy co-optation of authentic social progressivism. That's because- and here's the nub of it-to the minds of Left Conspiracists, only wholesale Class Revolution will ever provide the satisfactory solution to social ills. When that premise is accepted, Marxism is conspiracism.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The problem is that the elite *does* co-opt any social change movement it can't destroy. For example, consider the process by which the 60's counterculture was commodified in the course of the 70's and 80's and turned into a tool for selling clothing and hamburgers.<br><br>This is not a reason for rejecting, say, environmentalism just because certain elements within the elite have started promoting it. But it is a reason for looking very carefully at who is offering support to the causes you favor and for what reasons and whether the cause is in danger of being diverted into a path that is far from what you originally envisioned.<br><br>I suppose it would be fair to say there is elite environmentalism (of various strains, from the NIMBY-ism of the upper middle class to some of the more bizarre forms among the upper elite) and there is populist environmentalism (which is closely tied to social justice and community empowerment) and it is very important to know the difference between them. <br><br>And so with everything.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Leftwing conspiracy theory vs. rightwing conspiracy theo

Postby Dreams End » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:48 pm

On How his personal positions would not influence his judicial decisions if here were a judge...<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Stupid Democrats<br><br>If I hear the phrase "women's health issues" one more time I'm going to have an aneurism.<br>I heard a news report about some dumb democrat bitch saying that the new Supreme Court person's personal views on abortion are the most important thing to consider.<br>You IDIOT!<br>No, a JUDGE in our judicial system has to have the ability to properly interpret and uphold the laws of the constitution. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Just because I PERSONALLY believe that all slum moms with more than 2 kids should have their tubes tied does not mean I would put this into LAW.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>All I want out of a new Justice is the ability to judge clearly, impartially, in respect to the governing laws and documents. A judge's job is not to impose their personal beliefs on the people, whatever those beliefs may be.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://zhaven.blogspot.com/2005/07/stupid-democrats.html">zhaven.blogspot.com/2005/...crats.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Back to robertdreed

Postby Dreams End » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:05 pm

I'm sorry for having hijacked MY OWN thread to post all that Zero Haven garbage, but I get a little frustrated. I make a point of always backing up my claims with specific quotes from the parties I'm criticizing. Usually, they aren't people on this board, just people sometimes cited on this board. I use THEIR words and try to explain some of the long historical context of fascist conspiracy theory.<br><br>Despite this, the responses I get are as if I'm just calling names to be mean. <br><br>Anyway, to your response. While we could argue about if how you characterize "leftist" is accurate, I realize that "left conspiracy theory" maybe was the wrong label in the first place. Maybe "structural conspiracy theory?" That is...conspiracies don't exist independent of governmental and economic structures but are a result of them. I wonder if there aren't some more libertarian analyses that might fit that...<br><br>However, I will own up to my own belief that capitalism allows an unequal distribution of wealth and that those on the best end of that deal use the relatively higher amount of power and influence they have to then shape the structures of society so that they can get more wealth and protect the wealth they've got. I don't think any invisible hand comes to sort things out and I think those who are unwilling to crush opponents and do the sorts of things one must do to get to THAT level of wealth or those simply unable to accumulate that kind of wealth (especially as the system is rigged against them) will inevitably be screwed. I would also argue that the ideology of capitalism is so ingrained through propaganda (see the discussion about how nonprofits function, for example, in that thread from watchful citizen) that many of these "rich" are not knowingly trying to hurt ANYONE. There are many very wealthy liberals who have "concern" for the poor.<br><br>However, if you take a look at the stock portfolios of these folks...I'm not sure most of them would be free of defense stocks, oil stocks, walmart stocks, etc. So their ideology, such as it is, says one thing, but their money says quite another. <br><br>To keep these masses from getting too uppity...conspiracies are born.<br><br>Sometimes I wonder if you could look at Marxism from a perspective of the accumulation of POWER rather than capital. Capital is a very effective form of power, but it's not the only form. So conspiracies about monopolies on power would go beyond economic issues and would perhaps veer into the occult as is suggested on this site. <br><br>What would a libertarian analysis, for example, of the drug war be. Yes, obviously that it's wrong..but what's the motivation for this fake war on drugs. To me, it's being used as a method of social control as well as an excuse to intervene in foreign affairs. But if preservation of wealth for the wealthy isn't the motivation behind THOSE motivations, what is?<br> <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End
 

DE

Postby robertdreed » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:15 pm

You really know how to critique it right back, I'll give you that. I like the way you draw distinctions between "Left", "Marxist", "structural class analysis", etc. That's just what I left out of my earlier message, for reasons of space. I was primarily talking about those on the Left who rely on conspiracism the most- the hard-Left Leninist types. The types who spend so much of their energy suspecting people, accusing people, taking names and assuming monolithic opposition. <br><br>Many libertarian analyses of the Drug War would say that it's primarily prosecuted as a religious crusade, or as the result of cultural xenophobia, rather than on behalf of the wealthy. <br><br>Of course, there's a feedback loop that includes the interests of the wealthy in there somewhere. But the response of wealthy elites isn't unanimous. Some feel entitled to use their wealth to keep the conservative social-cultural strictures they support in place. Others passively sign off on the status quo, because as users they're at minimal risk of being hassled as long as they keep their heads down. Others revel in their covert privilege. Others actively seek to extend their power by profiting from the businesses associated with it, like money laundering, blackmail, and influence buying. And still others fund attempts to reform the drug laws to be in line with their more libertarian view of what constitutes an open society. <br><br>But I'd say that most of the wealthy have little interest in the Drug Laws one way or the other, because they're like most American citizens- their social conscience only extends as far as what's fashionable, what gets media attention. They have a few assumptions about illegal drugs users, the drug markets, and the drug laws, which they spend about 5 minutes a year examining. <br><br>The status quo holds the field, given those conditions. <br><br>Ironically, one of the problems with the media in regard to the drug issue is that a disproportionate number of media people- the rank and file, not the owners- have illegal drug experience. But such people avoid pointed reportage on such stories, because they feel that it's asking for heat- not merely "discrimination", but job loss, arrest, and jail. Or they leave "drug stories" to their non-illicit colleagues, who are the ones least likely to know what thy're looking at. Particularly if they're members of the Prestige News Media. <br><br>Drug use is considered not merely statistically deviant, but Shameful, and that oppobrium extends to the point of it being illegal conduct. Mandatory rehab, simply for first-offense possession...no one gets that for simple possession of a fifth of whiskey in their back seat. And that's what passes for "reform", that medicalization of "behavior" that is irrationally defined as "deviant." <br><br>So there's obviously something more going on there than simply economic justification for carrying on the Zero Tolerance War on Drugs. There's a deep streak of emotionally defended irrationalism in the support for the crusade. In fact, tell most Drug Warriors that the net effect of their efforts is an empowerment of organized crime and corruption, and they simply stop their ears. <br><br>I've found that one of the ways to tell when someone has a weak or indefensible argument is that when confronted with a challenge to their position, they refuse to defend. Instead, they counter-attack, turning on all the rhetorical heat they can muster.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/3/05 2:21 pm<br></i>
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Re: DE

Postby robertdreed » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:25 pm

"For example, consider the process by which the 60's counterculture was commodified in the course of the 70's and 80's and turned into a tool for selling clothing and hamburgers."<br><br>That requires the cooperation of consumers. And I'd argue that the "youth counterculture" of the 1960s and 1970s ate a lot more hamburgers than they do nowadays. They smoked more tobacco cigarettes, too. And the market for organic food was miniscule, compared to today. <br><br>I also have a problem with the Left, in terms of their orthodoxies, which sometimes tar positions as immoral or racist in advance of giving them a fully considered hearing.<br><br>For instance, let's take "immigration." Now, theoretically, I think that international borders are bogus. I don't hate foreigners. <br><br>But the practical fact is that if the USA takes on another 50 million people in the next 20 years or so, the quality of life is going to decline, as a practical matter. Too many, too fast. This isn't the 19th century any more. The fact of where they might be from is secondary. I'm simply considering the impact on things like water treatment systems. Municipal water treatment facilities are already the top cause of fixed-site pollution in this country. If the country can't build infrastructure fast enough to keep up with the population, it's headed downhill.<br><br>I need to note that every sovereign nation of which I'm aware has restrictions against illegal immigration. Even the most liberal nations of Europe... <br><br>Furthermore, in my opinion, we ought to be exercising a preference for immigrants from our neighbors in Mexico, rather than allowing "chain immigration" from around the world, whereby immigrants who have obtained citizenship are allowed to bring their family relatives over, legally. That was a policy that began during the Kennedy administration, and I think it's a mistake. <br><br>But bring this up in any Left meeting, and one is sure to be shouted down without further debate, typically by people who haven't even apprised themselves of the facts of the issues I've brought up. It's a Tenet Of Faith for the Left that immigration into this country- even illegal immigration- is always a Good Thing, and only a racist would oppose it. <br><br>It would help if there was a debate about this, and some of the legitimate concerns of the anti-immigrant people were addressed rather than dismissed while having their motives impugned. But that isn't what I see happening. <br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/3/05 2:56 pm<br></i>
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Re: DE

Postby thumperton » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:28 pm

The CIA was behind the counter culture. Just look at Leary and Steinem. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: OOPS you missed a spot!

Postby ZeroHaven » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:41 pm

Thanks for reminding me.. I forgot to get back to that <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>alien colony</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> idea I was writing about.<br><br>Since my PERSONAL blog for going psycho in is being trolled out, don't forget the bits like this.. of which I'll hilite the parts you seem to have MISSED:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I mean, they </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->[blacks] <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>get LESS money for the same workplace injuries! <br>Who the hell is in charge of this system?<br>Probably <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>a bunch of white corporate honkies</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> sitting behind their big oak desks counting their money. Maybe they <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>should be replaced with poor black women who will know what the people need</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. And maybe they'll sponsor some nice doctors who understand human physiology...</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Don't bother trolling through the whole blog.. I bitch about blacks, whites, jews, christians, the media, body odors, the government and anything else that pisses me off that day.<br>See, the difference is I keep most of my psychotic, emotionally imbalanced bitching AWAY from RI. Because it's not reasonable, nor rational, nor mature, and not socially acceptable to most people (just like this). This was an exception, and I sincerely apologize to the sane regulars who've been affected.<br>You can tell who you are by your replies to either this or...<br><br>the pedophile post! Thanks for dragging that back up, it's perfect proof of the closed minded bullcrap spewing I am complaining about. That's what weeded out the psychos for me, and I am grateful I learned what I did.<br><br>NO WHERE did I even begin to imply that adults should take little kids to bed, never mind kill them. But of course, not only was I accused of saying that, I was accused of being part of the group. <br>Rational? Reasonable? Nope, some people always make a point of flaming others' unusual ideas first.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Just throwing the notion that discriminating against a particular group just because you've heard a few bad stories in their name isn't appropriate... even if it's a group that you can't identify with"<br>--<br>"The writer states the beliefs that children should be listened to, loved, respected, and taken seriously."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> --- quoting myself.. IN CONTEXT.. asking for a discussion of the article.<br>I see after I abandoned the thread some nice people actually started discussing the matter. I'll go read that right after I say...<br><br>Guess what.. i'm a LIBERTARIAN. Let me keep my money, you keep yours, and let the neighbors have privacy to do whatever they agree to do with each other in their own space. <br>So, the war on drugs is a manufactured crusade to keep drug prices HIGH, to keep the poor poor (because in many poor neighborhoods dealing drugs is the best income, but using them is the best escape from feeling miserable), and as a side bonus, those same poor people can get tossed into prison with guaranteed charges whenever the government decides to "clean up" the city. There's your Libertarian viewpoint. I'm leaving for a few days. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=zerohaven>ZeroHaven</A> at: 10/3/05 2:42 pm<br></i>
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Zero Haven

Postby robertdreed » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:48 pm

What people write on the Internet is accessible and linkable by anyone who feels like doing it. Too bad, if you feel overly exposed by your own words. <br><br>Your "libertarian" defense of pedophilia doesn't fly with me, by the way. I'm aghast, really. That's only one of my objections to your stated opinions, but I think it's the most significant one. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/3/05 2:50 pm<br></i>
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Re: Zero Haven

Postby thumperton » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:56 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What people write on the Internet is accessible and linkable by anyone who feels like doing it. Too bad, if you feel overly exposed by your own words. <br><br>Your "libertarian" defense of pedophilia doesn't fly with me, by the way. I'm aghast, really. That's only one of my objections to your stated opinions, but I think it's the most significant one.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->He was being ironic.<br><br>I think he's trying to tell us how ridiculous it is to make something sacred by putting the word 'anti' infront of it. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Zero Haven

Postby robertdreed » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:58 pm

Well, dag.<br><br>I'll have to read the passage again. If it was being ironic, it was a bit too convincing for me, at first reading. <br><br>People have to watch their step with sarcasm in text, it makes it easy for them to be misunderstood. Not to mention being quoted out of context later on, by others. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/3/05 3:00 pm<br></i>
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Re: Zero Haven

Postby thumperton » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:59 pm

dag? <p></p><i></i>
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Dag

Postby robertdreed » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:02 pm

Yeah, "dag"...like "daggone." An American colloquialism, a Southern rural/urban black figure of speech. Probably originating as an attempt to clean up the epithet "g*dd**n." <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/3/05 3:03 pm<br></i>
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