Levanda on Wiesenthal

by **Qutb** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:44 am

At the age of 96, the man who single-handedly created the popular image of the indefatigable Nazi hunter has died in Vienna. There are a few people around the world who are, today, breathing a sigh of relief; others who are celebrating the death of their nemesis, the man who has kept them on their toes and on the run for decades. But for most of us, today is a day to remember not only the Holocaust but the sixty-year career of a man who survived the death camps only to turn around and go after the perpetrators. If Simon Wiesenthal could keep up that struggle until the age of 96, you can be sure that Nazi war criminals who escaped justice in 1945 continued to struggle to evade his net for the same length of time, until they themselves died of old age or were brought to justice. Wiesenthal’s greatest contribution, however, may very well be his success at keeping the story of the Holocaust alive. He did so in a way that many of us can appreciate: with intelligence, careful study and evaluation, and discretion. Wiesenthal was a kind of conspiracy theorist, looking for hidden enemies in government, business, and culture around the world; these enemies existed, of course, and were not the product of speculation or imagination, and he performed this function in a manner we should emulate. He did not tar everyone with the same brush. Even when confronted by the Nazi past of Kurt Waldheim, he stopped short of declaring the Austrian Prime Minister a war criminal (although he did call for his resignation), because the evidence just wasn’t there. Wiesenthal was only interested in apprehending the real perpetrators of the Holocaust: the sadistic butchers and fiends who populate the nightmares of the survivors. The Eichmanns, the Barbies, the Mengeles. (...) Skepticism in the service of research and investigation is a tremendous tool. It saves one endless time going after wild geese, meaningless data, dead ends. For those of us involved in the darker areas of historical research – sometimes confused with speculative history or even with conspiracy theorism – skepticism is a necessity. It keeps us sane. And may even keep us alive. But imagination is skepticism’s left hand. Without it, we wouldn’t even be involved in looking behind the curtain, in revealing the deeper politics behind world events. Imagination gives us the ability to conceive of other patterns, other connections between events, and renders us invulnerable to the cover story, the accepted version of events, the spin. Unfortunately, Simon Wiesenthal did not need an active imagination. He had experienced the sinister forces of history first-hand, in the death camps that took over eighty of his own relatives’ lives and nearly took his own. It is my sincere hope that today Simon Wiesenthal – who stirred the imaginations of so many others, including my own – is now reunited with his wife (who died in 2003), with the family he lost in the Holocaust, and with the six million others he fought to have remembered … and that they have enclosed him in an embrace of welcome, and of congratulations for a life well-lived and for his priceless contribution to the world. <a href="http://sinisterforces.info/blog/index.php">sinisterforces.info/blog/index.php</a> Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:19 am

imagination is skepticism's left hand

by **Sweejak** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:26 am

Weber on Wiesenthal <a href="http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml">www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml</a>

by **Project Willow** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:01 am

Is there any coverage anywhere about how Wiesenthal dealt with his main opposition, the US government and Project Paperclip? Many mc survivors name Mengele as a major programmer, indeed a director of the programs. Rutz has attempted to track his comings and goings in the US based on survivor and other testimony <a href="http://my.dmci.net/~casey/JosephMengelesurvivorsightings.htm">here.</a> We haven't dealt with this subject here yet. Just wondering if anyone else had info. I've contacted one Holocaust survivor/group asking for more eye witness testimony on his whereabouts, as it ppewared they had some, but received no answer. (The reasons for this probably relate to what Israelirealities wrote in her thread on what to write about mind control.) Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=projectwillow@rigorousintuition>Project Willow</A> at: 10/2/05 11:01 pm

by **Qutb** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:36 am

Great, let's quote the fucking Journal for Historical Review. About the author: "Mark Weber is director of the Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For nine years he served as editor of the IHR's Journal of Historical Review." Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **israelirealities** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:09 pm

WP, I read more than few accounts about Mengele being actually Dr. Green etc., I tend to doubt it, but the main culprit could have used Mengele as a mentor, or his idol, and also to scare victims. I suppose Wiesenthal, as most Jews, overlooked (turned a purposeful blind eye) to Paperclip and to all the involvement of USA with Nazis and "not nice things". In Israel there is a huge silence over this issue...and other similar overlooking Nazis, when there are interests at stake. The price, of course, is that these practices are now prevalent IN israel and yet again overlooked. There is a great novel by Ann Marie McDonald, called "the way the crow flies", dealing with paperclip and the canadian auxiliary project "matchbox". A great novel.

by **Project Willow** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:30 pm

Hi IR, I know it sounds incredible, but from all the testimony I've heard, Mengele headed much of the mc programs in the US and in other countries as well. He was known as Dr. Black actually, and also a number of other aliases, like variations on Schwarz. Actually, my opinion comes from much more than that, but I don't want to elaborate here. Here is more on Dr. Green, or Dr. Greenbaum, from Corydon Hammond's speech. Though I hesitate to post it because I don't want to enflame the tensions we've had on the board lately, and I can't say how accurate it is. I think it is safe to assume however, that the drs. black and green were two different people. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>They brought them to the United States. Along with them was a young boy, a teenager, who had been raised in a Hasidic Jewish tradition and a background of Cabalistic mysticism that probably appealed to people in the Cult because at least by the turn of the century Aleister Crowley had been introducing Cabalism into Satanic stuff, if not earlier. I suspect it may have formed some bond between them. But he saved his skin by collaborating and being an assistant to them in the death-camp experiments. They brought him with them. They started doing mind-control research for Military Intelligence in military hospitals in the United States. The people that came, the Nazi doctors, were Satanists. Subsequently, the boy changed his name, Americanized it some, obtained an M.D. degree, became a physician and continued this work that appears to be at the center of Cult Programming today. His name is known to patients throughout the country. <hr></blockquote> Many of the drs. involved used color pseudonyms. There was yet another German who used a different color name (I don't want to say what it is here). There is a lot of programming based on colors as well. It's a labeling technique that works well for kids. ugghhh, ok, I'm going to vomit now.

by **israelirealities** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:32 pm

Hi Wp. I read similar accounts, to the extent that there was a doctor or someone JEwish. I wasn't aware of the Black quy though, which means I haven't read everything :'-) My sense of this not being Mengele is derived from the fact that he was supposed to have died in Brazil and his bones were identified etc., not sure about the details, and also that it would be extremely hard to hide him, people knew him well enough to recognize him in the street. However, I find this is not really the point, including the one about Dr. Green. The facts remain the same, that this is certainly NAzi made programming, AND that there is some fascination with Judaism and particularly Mysticism. I tend to believe this part, including the collaboration of the former victims. THis does not come accross as liabelous and in fact it makes "sense" in the sick way. There is some connection between perp and victim which is still hard to describe, but its there. Also, what I know of programming here, resonates with this structure. One still has to bear in mind that the perps were the Nazis, and then we have a host of weird collaborations, sort of "stockholm syndrom" on a wide range. Some Jews, now even more, became Nazified, possibly as a result of identification with the strong party, but maybe just corruption, does not matter. What do we do about it, is the question. I feel that cooperation here is crucial, but the tendency is to blame and generalize to the point of losing effectiveness. Naturally, this sick interconnection between Nazis and Judaism/Jews, would imply that the number of Jewish victims will be larger than proportional rates. Though I am Jewish and Israeli I would not hesitate for one minute to point to those among my people who have become collaborators and even major players in programming and trafficking.. However, except for some german activists, who are aware of what you are writing here and are in solidarity to eradicate this both in Israel and in germany and world wide, I haven't met with any forthcoming response elsewhere. If there is any victim who would like to discuss the Jewish aspects/ kaballah aspects of their programming or victiminzation at the hand of that Jewish doctor or other (I am sure there are), I think this is why I am writing here or elsewhere. Let's discuss it as victims of this "allignment" of evil, not as people behind walls of nationality or religious/ethnic affiliation. As you may have seen by now, anti jewish comments do not "do it" for me, I am not appalled, afraid or disgusted. I see it as a truly regretful phenomenon, as any form of generalization that prevents cooperation and solidarity. There are many aspects of Judaism that I don't like, and I have a lot of experience with pseudo kabalah/black magic of that sort.

by **Qutb** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:23 pm

About Nazi fascination with Judaism - it's obvious that many Nazis had a very strong fascination with Jews, Judaism and Jewish mysticism/kabbalah, for reasons that may not be entirely clear to us. Even the Holocaust is sort of a proof of that, as it is clear that Jews were more than just convenient scapegoats for the Nazis. They put an enormous machinery into motion and excercized all their famous Teutonic efficiency in an attempt to exterminante as many Jews as possible, even when they knew they were losing the war, and though the Jews would have been more useful as slave labour than dead. Why? I haven't really found a satisfactory answer to that question. Mengele as a key mind controller in the US - it's crazy, but crazy enough to be true? I believe he died in Brazil. But according to some, the Nazis had a way of faking their deaths post-WWII. Some, among them Dave Emory, believe Hitler's secretary Martin Bormann didn't die in Berlin at the end of the war, but played a key role in reinvesting the Nazi fortune from his base in South America. The source for this incredible story is Paul Manning, a prominent CBS war reporter, who spent years after the war tracking the "Bormann Organization". I'm not convinced, but I haven't read Manning's book. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:03 pm

Well, the Jewish mysticism is interesting. The Cabbalah finds its way into just about all western occult systems. This was previous to the Nazi party and goes back at least to Golden Dawn, and I imagine Rosicrucians before that.

by **Project Willow** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:23 pm

Qutb said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Mengele as a key mind controller in the US - it's crazy, but crazy enough to be true? I believe he died in Brazil.<hr></blockquote> It's another one of those things that makes our stories all the more incredible, and I wish it weren't true. One interesting thing about mc survivors, many of us have systems of twinned parts, and many of us are "twinned" via attachment programming with other survivors. I consider this twinning phenomenon to be his signature. Here is the standard version of Mengele post WWII. Though there were sightings even in the eighties after his assumed death in 1979. The mc programs began in the late forties. There was plenty of time for him to be connnected to the activities. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Josef Mengele fled from Auschwitz on January 17, 1945 and ten days later it was liberated. Later in 1945, he was arrested, but was later released before his captors knew who he was. In 1949, he fled Germany to Argentina, with the help of his family, where he lived in South America for 35 years under various aliases. In 1958, he married under his own name and in 1959, West Germany issued a warrant for his arrest for committing war crimes and mass murder. In 1979, while swimming in the ocean, Mengele suffered a stroke and drowned. By the time he was dragged ashore he was dead. His remains were found in 1985, buried under a false name and in 1992, it was verified by forensic scientists that they were indeed the remains of the Angel of Death. His notes and the twin files were never recovered.<hr></blockquote> source: <a href="http://www.candlesmuseum.org/mengelepaper_04.htm">www.candlesmuseum.org/mengelepaper_04.htm</a> There is also this link which I posted before: <a href="http://my.dmci.net/~casey/JosephMengelesurvivorsightings.htm">my.dmci.net/~casey/JosephMengelesurvivorsightings.htm</a>

by **Qutb** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:19 pm

Willow, you are right of course, Mengele had plenty of time to be involved in MC before 1979. I though I remembered he died earlier. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **israelirealities** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:51 am

first time i hear that programs created "twins". Can anyone elaborate on that, or send links/references ? triggers something here...

by **Seventhsonjr** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:58 pm

Hi PW and Israelreality - I just wanted top mention that John Loftus discusses the intentional failure of Wiesenthal to go after US and Israeli operatives with Nazi backgrounds AND addresses the issue of whether Ben Gurion cut a deal with the Rockefellers (and presumably, Bush, Walker, Harriman, Duules, Morgan et al who financed The Nazi plan and military as well as the death camps) where Ben Gurion agreed NOT to go after them for their crimes of they would sway the votes at the United Nations in 1948 in favor of creation of thwe state of Israel. According to Loftus this "deal with the nazi backers" was cut and the vote for creation of Israel was passed. Ben Gurion had, according to Loftus, little choice but to cut this deal as otherwise Israel would not have been permitted to exist by the Rockefellers et al. In the same way, according to Loftus, Wisenthal did not go after the operation paperclip guys or anyone who was an agent of either the United States intel ops or who was being used by Israeli intelligence. I am not at this point making a value judgment on these issues or even saying I believe they are true --- but Loftus , as President of the Florida Holocaust Museum and a former Nai hunter at the justice department whose investigations were scuttled by the Bush Reagan administration (he was hired under Carter) - he has quite a bit of credibility on this issue despite some of his other sentiments these days. I know from working some with the Wisenthal institute that they do not like or trust Loftus at all, and it is probably because of these dirty secrets and his discussion of them. I always have to keep in mind that despite some of Loftus' current closeness to Likud, he was the first major published author to tie Prescott Bush and the Walkers directly to Hitler in his book with Mark Aarons, "The Secret War Against the Jews" which is, in my opinion, a must read for anyone interested in these matters. Since it is very clear that US intel blackops style functionaries were tied into the nazi ratline to Latin America and were protected in Washington and on Wall Street by their owners like the Rockefellers and Bushes et al, it seems highly likely that whatever "skills" they had in mind control or ra could very easily have been put to use by those with the resources to utilize them (i.e. the shadow government and CIA, etc.) And since these same operatives had ties with Israeli intelligence, the same might be said of what has happened and is happening there. Also, since these Nazi medical and mind control experiments (such as also in japan) were carried on for the benefit of US corporate interests (or were "acquired" by them as in Japan after the war), then it makes perfect sense to infer that these assets were protected and used by these same corporate fascist until today and will be tomorrow.

by **israelirealities** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:27 pm

7thson thank you for all this information, i will look into this Loftus guy, (there's no relation to the psychologist ? or is there ?), sounds quite interesting. I think your analysis is perfectly plausible. As for the initial deals, although i didn't live in those times, so hindsight is not always fair, I feel that all the Ben Gurion deals with germany etc., were morally wrong and this is the result we are facing today. I think the same lack of foresight that brought the holocaust, will bring the next one on us. There is a lot of renewed interest here in Israel in those times and decisions, and growing attack from extreme right wing AND non ZIonist left wing, against the dealings of the government, re the Nazis. yes, I also agree that most of the technology is now owned by corporations, and ISrael is just another "enterprise", perhaps a "chosen one", for those corporations. Don't you find this truly horrible, and am I the only one shocked to realize, recently, that Israel sold out to Nazis, while we were being taught that this is the refuge from them. Your thesis makes sense in another way. During the early 60';s here, while Operation Eichmann was "hot" on the agenda, and at the same time, a wave of S&M "goulag" sex books and literature, spread around Israeli like a plague. My sense of it, is that those ISraeli Mossad ops, who were involved in the capture of Eichmann, recruited Nazis, or collaborators from Latin America, many of whom were brought here as "reward" and immunity, and became a nucleus of those practices. Another interesting fact, is the recent publication here about a certain scientist/physician who was actually a prisoner-collaborator in Dachau or Bergen Belzen in those Mengele blocks, later came to Israel and was recruited to the Biological Institute of Israel, known for its involvement in those horrible crimes. He died recently in Israel. I can trace his name. I thought it was really a very "bad news", but the press wrote it down as a "zionist success story" of a Jewish survivor of atrocities who came to help the defense of the new Jewish state.

Levanda on Wiesenthal

Levanda on Wiesenthal

very nicely put:

Re: very nicely put:

Mengele & Project Paperclip

Re: Weber on Wiesenthal

Re: Mengele & Project Paperclip

Re: Mengele & Project Paperclip

Re: Mengele & Project Paperclip

Re: Mengele & Project Paperclip

Re: Mengele & Project Paperclip

Mengele post WWII

Re: Mengele post WWII

Re: twin programming

Re: Mengele & Project Paperclip

Re: Mengele & Project Paperclip

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