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Sorry to butt in..........

Postby slimmouse » Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:03 am

<br><br> But with the greatest respect Wintler.<br><br> You have yet to explain to me , why you believe the controllers really give a shit about how many of their people die in Wars which line their pockets at your expense ?<br><br> You have also to explain to me, why the Pentagon, who from the best of my analysis are twinned with the Oil cartels, could seriously give a shit about how much it costs to run their war machine <br><br> After all, who pays for that ? And exactly who benefits from the world and his friend paying for wars ?<br><br> You figured that out yet ?<br><br> Or do you require a list of 50 links ?<br><br> You have further to explain to me, who exactly it is that you know, who seems to have informed you, that every last one of the free energy devices posted in my link, are liars ?<br><br> Are you some kind of educated nuclear scientist or something ?<br><br> Wintler, in conclusion, with the greatest respect, youre full of it.<br><br> But in the spirit of 'democracy', I challenge you to give it your best shot.<br><br> I expect full logical scientific proof, from yourself that the free energy devices illustrated are nothing but pipe dreams.<br><br> I expect personal testimony from people that YOU KNOW PERSONALLY and trust, that this is nothing but people trying to achieve their own 15 mins of fame , even to the extent that this has usually cost them their lives.<br><br> Otherwise, I suggest you go back and do some reading. <br><br> Google Nikola Tesla - A great place to start. <p></p><i></i>
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Vast conspiracy = conspiracy of stupidity

Postby professorpan » Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:14 am

I keep going back to what someone posted on the main blog (in reference to Jeff's latest post). The writer asked an old man, formerly part of the Manhattan Project, for a piece of wisdom or advice.<br><br>The old man said, "Nobody's in charge."<br><br>There is no vast conspiracy. There are lots of conspiracies, large and small, conspiracies of good people (those who care about other people and the planet) and bad people (those who care only about themselves and the bottom line). <br><br>There's not a world-controlling sinister cabal plotting to shoot down free energy. There's no need. There isn't a sinister cabal cooking up something called "peak oil," either. There's no need for that.<br><br>Simple greed and stupidity and blind self-interest are all that is needed to explain our present dilemma.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Talk to me Pan.

Postby slimmouse » Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:37 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There's not a world-controlling sinister cabal plotting to shoot down free energy.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> OK, Ill indulge you Proffy.<br><br> Lets get into real 'Conspiracy land ' <br><br> Talk me thru the Treason felony act. ( thanks John)<br><br> Talk me thru Bohemia Grove and the sphinx.<br><br> <br> Talk me thru the organised religion scam.<br><br> Talk me thru the History of Israel and Big Oil and the Rothshchilds. Ever heard of John Dee ?<br><br> Talk me thru Skull and Bones, and the US secret societies. Talk me thru the Nazi connections with the above<br><br> Tell me about Vlad the Impaler, Mary of Teck, and the relationship to The Chimp in the whitehouse. Have a look at the Charlemagne family tree.<br><br> Tell me as to why exactly, Clinton, Bush Sr and jr, Clinton, Greenspan, Guliani, and a few other select souless all happen to be highly decorated by Her nibs ?<br><br> Tell me about why the US courts have a gold lining around the stars and stripes, and then explain it all away to tradition LMAO.<br><br> And having done all of the above, try telling me that their isnt a common thread running throughout them all. Cos if you can, kudos to ya.<br><br> Youre obviously well versed on these things, and can tell me that there is no connection whatsoever between any of them .<br><br> "No one is in charge" <br><br> Sure, theres no grand conspiracy. Just like 9/11 my friend, its all just coincidence. Goldsmith changed his mind about the legality of the Iraq war not cos he was overuled, but......cos........cos......cos no one is in charge.<br><br> And Im pope fucking Gregory the Ninth.<br><br> Heres your starter . Tell me the ancestral relationship between the Bushes and the Windors, as is freely available via Burkes peerage ( an "official" publication)<br> <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 1/30/06 9:53 pm<br></i>
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Talking to Pan.

Postby Iroquois » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:25 am

Yeah, that post has has really been haunting me too, ProfessorPan. Though I have never been convinced that all these tentacles lead to a single head, I read far more into what he said than that. And, while that something more may be what I already suspected, it's not a comforting thought.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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..

Postby wintler » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:30 am

'Nobody in charge' fits what i see in the world. Sure there are conspiracies, of greed or powerlust or whatever, of every size and variety, but the idea that there is some central cabal with the key to every plot is the kind of beautifully simple reductionism beloved of fanatics the world over - scapegoats are essential to absolutists.<br>"complex problems have simple wrong answers" h.l.menken<br><br>slimmouse: since none of your many supposed free energy devices are described beyond a few dozen words (and no links, nothing concrete via google) nothing remotely scientific is possible. I must admit to being similarly unable to untangle your alex-jones-live assortment of push-poll questions. Guess that makes you right [yawns, checks watch].Stick with the biodiesel mate, will save you from those black helicopters. <p></p><i></i>
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Not going vast enough

Postby Gouda » Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:00 am

Pan, there is no need for what? No need for us to explain our present state of affairs via a cartoonish version of a secret, omniscient, supremely powerful cabal? Perhaps not. However, neither would I boil our present state of affairs down to “simple greed and stupidity and blind self-interest.”<br><br>Or do you mean there is no need for powerful conspirators to “go vast” when smaller-scale conspiracies are enough to get the greed and stupidity ball rolling to achieve certain limited ends? <br><br>Yet why would would-be world-controllers stop at limited conspiracies, or only partial world-control? Would they feel no need to go further? Is it some kind of enlightened self-control? Why not “go vast” when you’ve got all you need to do it? Maybe they have tried and failed, not quite able to get at the right formula?<br><br>Adolf & Co. certainly aspired and plotted beyond their immediate needs. One could argue they had vastly fewer tools than today’s never-elected transnational M-I-Occult complex. And some, we know, have taken good notes on the 3rd Reich project, and will not choose the same means to reach similar ends. The old lessons-learned approach. <br><br>Nobody has to be in charge in the cartoony, round-table, secret cabal sense. But that does not preclude the possibility or danger that a) someone wants to be; that certain clever, powerful groups are or have been vying for world-control, which is a dream of both the powerful and the weak; b) that total world-control is possible eventually through increasingly globalised, coordinated efforts; c) that world-control is gelling, or evolving in this direction regardless of cabals (corporate capitalism + inherent human greed + those intangible, otherworldly military-esoteric battles?); or d) that full spectrum omniscient centralized world-dominance is not necessary to hold decentralized, de facto world-control. <br><br>***<br><br>Perhaps the old man was shattered, and came to believe that nobody could possibly be in charge when the fruits of his highly coordinated, secret labors to defeat fascist imperialism led to the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Chernobyl, D.U., nuclear proliferation, and a new fascist imperialism. A denial that there could possibly be someone "in charge" who would have allowed this state of affairs to unfold. <br><br>Maybe there was no one in charge at that time, on the day he dislocated himself from the world. <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 1/31/06 8:18 am<br></i>
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agreed

Postby professorpan » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:30 pm

Gouda says:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Nobody has to be in charge in the cartoony, round-table, secret cabal sense. But that does not preclude the possibility or danger that a) someone wants to be; that certain clever, powerful groups are or have been vying for world-control, which is a dream of both the powerful and the weak; b) that total world-control is possible eventually through increasingly globalised, coordinated efforts; c) that world-control is gelling, or evolving in this direction regardless of cabals (corporate capitalism + inherent human greed + those intangible, otherworldly military-esoteric battles?); or d) that full spectrum omniscient centralized world-dominance is not necessary to hold decentralized, de facto world-control. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I agree with everything you said except for (b).<br><br>The world is too big and too messy and too full of conflicting interests for any one group, however powerful, to establish a firm hold on all of its inhabitants. I'm not being facetious at all when I suggest reading Dr. Seuss's "Yertle the Turtle" to get a metaphorical explanation of why total fascist rule will never work.<br><br>And there is one factor left out of the equation, which is the achilles heel of the parapolitical/conspiracy contingent (and I have fallen prey to it at times): there are conspiracies of *good* people, too. And good is a powerful force. <br><br>It's easy to look at a limited frame of time -- our present, deranged era -- and not see the long, rising arc of human progress. It was only a few decades ago that blacks couldn't vote, women stuck coat hangers into their wombs to terminate pregnancies, and rivers in Middle America caught fire because they were so pollluted. And the policy of the two world superpowers was "mutally assured destruction."<br><br>There has been progress, albeit slow and halting. We appear to be stuck in a terrible rut at the moment, and it's easy to think it's never going to get better. But the pendululm does swing back, eventually, and the course of evolutionary growth tends toward increasing human freedom.<br><br>I think back to the time before the current Iraq war, when I joined millions of people from across the world who took to the streets to say "no" to the criminal, imperialistic enterprise. Sure, we lost that battle. But we -- the people pushing for a non-violent future -- did not disappear off the face of the planet. <br><br>And even the most powerful ultimately fall. A criminal gang like the Bush Cult can rule for time, but history will show them to be the thugs and thieves that they are. I'm quite certain of that.<br><br>That's why I disengage myself occasionally from echo-chambers like this one. I don't mean that to be derogatory, because there is often top-notch analysis and commentary, but this forum is often clouded with pessimism and defeatism, as expressed in lists of horrors like slimmouse provided (and slim, I agree with you -- that is a pretty damning list). I'm not a pollyanna by any means, and I have my moments of despair like anyone who pays attention. But I have faith in the general goodness of human beings, and trust in the evolutionary impulse toward unity and cooperative interdependence. And I trust that those who strive to dominate sow the seeds of their own destruction. As Jimmy Cliff sang, "The harder they come, the harder they fall."<br><br>One and all. Om mani padme hum. Rest in peace Coretta Scott King.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Addendum

Postby professorpan » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:21 pm

Oh, yeah. Just one more thing. <br><br>I do believe things are on track to getting very, very bad before they get better.<br><br>But they will, ultimately, get better. Unless we all give up. <p></p><i></i>
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Addendum 2

Postby professorpan » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:35 pm

And we'll need to fight like crazy. Noviolently, but with every ounce of passion and strength we can muster.<br><br>I'll shut up now. <p></p><i></i>
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Why? -Nobody's Telling...

Postby thurnandtaxis » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:10 pm

Oil Execs Refuse To Testify At Senate hearing<br><br>WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Officials from six major oil companies have refused to testify this week at a Senate hearing looking into whether oil industry mergers in recent years have made gasoline more expensive at the pump.<br><br>With oil companies reporting record profits from higher energy prices, consumer groups have complained that mergers in the industry have stifled competition.<br><br>Exxon Mobil said on Monday it earned $10.7 billion in the fourth quarter of last year and $36.1 billion for all of 2005 -- bigger than the economies of 125 countries.<br><br>The Senate Judiciary Committee, which is holding the hearing on Wednesday morning, said it asked representatives from Exxon Mobil, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, Valero Energy and the U.S. units of BP and Royal Dutch Shell to tell their side of the story.<br><br>"All declined the invitation to testify," the committee said in a statement on Monday, without providing details.<br><br>The companies, with the exception of Valero, took a beating at a Senate hearing last November on the industry's soaring profits at the time and high energy prices.<br><br>Bill Kovacic, a member of the Federal Trade Commission, is scheduled to testify at Wednesday's hearing.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>The FTC is investigation whether oil companies manipulated gasoline prices and oil refining production levels</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> The agency plans to finish its probe and send its findings to Congress this May.<br><br>Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal will also testify.<br><br>The price for gasoline jumped 2.1 cents over the last week to a national average of $2.36 a gallon, up 45 cents from a year ago, the government said on Monday.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/energy_congress_gasoline_dc">news.yahoo.com/s/nm/energ...asoline_dc</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=thurnandtaxis>thurnandtaxis</A> at: 1/31/06 1:13 pm<br></i>
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"I'm Your Pusher"

Postby thurnandtaxis » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 pm

Not to cast aspersions on the great Curtis Mayfeild (or even the kinda ok, Ice-T) But this just in:<br><br>Bush Says U.S. Addicted To Oil<br>By Steve Holland <br>WASHINGTON (Reuters) -<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br> President Bush will say "America is addicted to oil" and must develop technologies to address soaring gasoline prices in a State of the Union speech on Tuesday night that argues against a U.S. retreat from Iraq and the war on terrorism.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060131/pl_nm/bush_speech_dc_17;_ylt=Aqdst1C1zezZ9sG7QqcUNk9qP0AC;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl">news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060...MlJVRPUCUl</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "I'm Your Pusher"

Postby Dreams End » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:07 am

Well, these record profits show that we can ALL agree that Peak Oil is good for business!<br><br>I can't counter your examples, Wintler. In fact, my own "testimony" about Peak Oil would be inadmissable in court. Just because I think there are bad guys behind the info (not just the Heinbergs but oil company folks) doesn't PROVE the info is bad. To do that, I'd need access to the raw, unfiltered data, which the above dispute about the levels of reserves in S.A. and in Kuwait show is not so easy to do. I'd also need a great deal of geological knowledge, which I don't have. And since geologists are not coming out in droves about Peak, I must assume the case is not so clearcut...or do geologists rely on "hopes and feelings" rather than raw data?<br><br>So, as usual, I'm left trying to sort out which "experts" to believe. Big oil denies that there's a problem but sure profits when there IS a problem....cough...Katrina...cough, cough. So they sure have MOTIVE to manipulate perceptions. <br><br>And I have this whole other interest which has to do with the spreading of "end of the world" scenarios from some seemingly unrelated sources, such as Peak Oilers, New Age channelers and even aliens abducting hapless earthlings. Add into that neo-malthusian, population reductionists and I get really wary before embracing such scenarios. <br><br>But my opinions based on the above are NOT science. I recognize that. Question is....how to sort out real science...unaldulterated by corporate spin on the one hand and deliberate manipulation on the other. <br><br>Now, what you've shown is that some countries are saying that Peak is coming (well, that's sort of what those articles say.) So clearly, if these "backward" nations are aware, then our big oil companies are also aware. they don't make a living by "wishing" they knew where more oil was. So, if they know, which they must...are we not back to a fairly large conspiracy to HIDE the truth?<br><br>Sorry I don't have time for too much in the way of responses these days. Being kept pretty busy. <p></p><i></i>
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we must have a bad line

Postby wintler » Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:11 am

DE: "So clearly, if these "backward" nations are aware, then our big oil companies are also aware. they don't make a living by "wishing" they knew where more oil was. So, if they know, which they must...are we not back to a fairly large conspiracy to HIDE the truth?"<br><br>Again, no, i don't think so. Look at the ability of repugnicants to deny that iraq is a disaster or the ability of all of us to overlook the cascading global collapse in fisheries, melting of glaciers, and increasingly record breaking weather. We are MASTERS at denial, and for $100k+ a year theres plenty of people who could (with utter conviction in their hearts) deny gravity too, and no concious conspiracy is required. <br><br>You are so convinced that a vast conspiracy of some kind exists, even tho you admit lack much evidence and aren't even sure if its a fake-peak or peak-supression conspiracy! Hate to break it to you, but your vast conspiracy, however you paint it, does not have to exist.<br><br>"Put the hammer down, carpenter, this is an autopsy." <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: we must have a bad line

Postby Dreams End » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:30 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Again, no, i don't think so. Look at the ability of repugnicants to deny that iraq is a disaster or the ability of all of us to overlook the cascading global collapse in fisheries, melting of glaciers, and increasingly record breaking weather.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, see, there we differ. I don't think Iraq was a disaster at all. Not to them, I mean. It was clear what was going to happen...and Rumsfeld insured there would not even be enough troops to have a chance to pacify the place. In other words, I think the destruction of Iraq was all that was important. Not saying they would have passed on a chance to avoid the civil war...but it was unimportant. And the ability of "us" to deny the things you mention (and man is the winter mild here this year) is not relevant. We aren't talking about average citizens, we are talking about people who make billions (record profits) in finding new sources of oil. That's what Colin Campbell did for a living but he is certainly not the only one. I guarantee you that the most sophisticated petroleum deposit modeling programs and supercomputer number-crunching goes on within that industry. Exxon has something like the 10th highest GNP in the world (if it were actually a country.) <br><br>As for vast conspiracies...I'm totally agnostic about the nature of the structure of the "deep politics". I seem to be one of the few on here who accepts my ultimate ignorance on the matter. Some oil companies are floating ideas out there among certain segments of the population that oil is peaking. They make more $$$. That's not a big deal. While I worry that there is more to it...and that's the whole end of the world scenario stuff as opposed to just "cheap oil is over" stuff (which is really what you posted those countries as saying), I admit repeatedly that while I find disturbing players in that game and disturbing messengers...I don't really understand what that whole thing is about.<br><br>My comment about the vast conspiracy of denial stands though, more as a critique...not a conspiracy hunt. I don't understand the logic of thinking these huge mega corps with all their resources know less than Colin Campbell...they can even READ Campbell. More importantly, they can read the myriad reports that they generate all the time. They can even read Petroleum Intelligence Weekly. <br><br>I think there is no way to avoid the idea that the Exxon's and others know what's up...real or fake peak. <br><br>The main reason I worry about a larger "conspiracy" (while ignorant of the behind the scene players and their agenda) is that there are two possibilities.<br><br>1. Peak is real...and I have reasons to doubt that, primarily based on the milieu of people promoting it and the overlap with those who've promoted other peak resource theories.<br><br>2. Peak is fake. If it's fake, the oil companies wouldn't want to put out an end of the world scenario I would think. An "end to cheap oil" idea is perfect, but the world will collapse in a few decades? I don't think this serves commercial interests. But since it ties in so well with that overlap of the "carrying capacity crowd" and other sectors promoting upcoming doom, it suggests to me that there is some force wanting to put that idea out there. And it's everywhere.<br><br>I just talked to a guy who went to see Al Gore speak here a month ago about global warming. He said he was energized to act at first, but by the end he had two thoughts. First, why the hell didn't you, Al, do anything about this while in office. And secondly, he felt as if he was basically being told there was NOTHING he COULD do. <br><br>In other words, give up hope. And since even Noam Chomsky has said that resource shortages would justify authoritarian government structures, this makes me not so happy. <br><br>My overall posts on this theme are merely suggestive...I freely admit that. I see lots of smoke...but I can't even be sure it's all from the same fire. But if you look carefully, you start to see this overlap of players (Heinberb/Pimental/Carrying Capacity Network, as an example.) Colin Campbell "allowing" that horrible "fascism is the answer" piece in the ASPO newsletter. Nevermind all the really weird overlaps among the New Age, "space brothers are coming" folks, who seem to ALL track back to Esalen---where they hang with Gorbachev et al. <br><br>I'm oversimplifying my points which were already oversimplified in my posts, so don't attack the details of the above...people can go to the archives if they want a fuller treatment. The point is that I CAN see a hidden hand at work in this regard. I just don't claim to know whose it is or what the hell it's up to!<br><br>I know I'm not holding up my end in this thread...limited time these days.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Doom 'n Gloom

Postby professorpan » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:13 pm

Dream's End,<br><br>You make some very good points. But consider this possibility: <br><br>The reason that the peeps soaking in the springs at Esalen seem focused on global warming, carrying capacity, population growth, and other environmental issues is that we are truly heading into dangerous territory and mucking up the pond we live in at a frantic, unprecedented pace. <br><br>I'm convinced that is the case. <br><br>So maybe there isn't an overarching plan to cull the herd. Maybe the crusty elites realize that they'll need fresh water and would prefer to live on the surface and not in undergound bunkers eating hydroponic sprouts.<br><br>Recognizing and oncoming train and trying to warn people sitting on the tracks is not doomsaying -- it's acting with compassion. <p></p><i></i>
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