Whistleblower Charged w/ Three Felonies, Exposing Diebold

by **sunny** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:22 am

I take that hand HMK, and gratefully. I feel as you do, like a survivor of a horrific event that only I know about.(although I do have the comfort of my children, who understand but are not as depressed as I- they don't, or won't, take the time to closely study history) The people of my community and extended family bitch about the state of things and complain about Bush (quite a feat here in ALa.) but they just won't see that it's really all over but the crying for America. I have given up on working for political parties, writing the reps, LTE's, or political activism of any sort, except for posting info on this board.I held out hope for as long as I could. I still hold a vague hope that Feingold might run and win the presidency, tho I'd hate for him to stick his neck out and end up like RFK and kill the hope even more, for everyone. I concentrate now on building and strengthening my familiy and community relationships, because in the end, that is what will hold us and keep us. May God bless us all.

by **anotherdrew** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:45 am

"guided reincarnation" a google on that phrase turns up very little. Anyone ever heard of such a process? I've had a suspicion for some time that they can in fact do that. That dubya may in fact BE, say... George H. Walker his great-grandfather who "died" about 13 months before dubya's birth. The ability to pull this off (even if only through trickery) would be the ultimate secret, proof and loyalty bind.

by **NewKid** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:54 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I really liked your brief and to the point summation of what I personally find the most singularly depressing and repugnant thing about this whole escalating mess we're in: the apparent calm and willingness of so many of my own intelligent, even compassionate and informed friends. I cannot explain it. It keeps me up nights. <hr></blockquote> Everyone's perplexed by it. But I sort of see it as completely divorced from the intellect and if anything the smarter you are the less likely you are to see what's going on, absent some sort of stark traumatic experience that upsets your worldview. They're naive and they don't have real world experience with the dirty part of the world. People who are somewhat smart and successful think they have it figured out and the last thing they want to hear is that they're suckers. People will fight to the death to avoid confronting the possibility that they might be wrong. Look at the rightwingers. There are some smart right wing bloggers who are very competent in normal stuff, but who have no idea what they're doing or talking about with politics. It starts with the psychology and the intellect reverse engineers the details to fit it. The same goes for leftwingers. They read Chomsky and nod their head and stop thinking. They want to be self-satisfied that they beat the idiots on the right wing or can demolish the nonsense coming out of the Times and Post, but it shouldn't stop there. The game's not over. They give up too soon and don't want to think they might be wrong. It's much more like supporting a baseball team even when they objectively suck than it is observing something from a scientific or rational point of view. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=newkid@rigorousintuition>NewKid</A> at: 3/15/06 12:59 am

by **HMKGrey** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:31 am

Nicely said NEWKID. The other point I'd raise here is that Americans have a really unhealthy attitude to politics to begin with. No one ever talks about it socially. Well rarely, at least. Come each election, happy neighbors can put out their conflciting lawn signs but Hell would freeze over before they'd actually have a good old debate about their opposing beliefs. I've neve rseen it happen and never heard of it either. I grew up in England and politics was always just behind TV and soccer in terms of conversation ranking. People loved talking about politics, arguing about politics, shouting at oneanother about politics. Everyone here seems to be obsessed with being polite about politics. Which is so odd to see at grass roots levels because it's soprevalent too at the very highest levels... in Gore's desire not to appear a bad loser, in the current Dems endless positioning of themselves to appear reliable. It never ends. I guess that we grew up with parliament on Radio and then TV and it was always this raucous, noisy place with jeering and shouting so it sort of set the tone from the top down. I'm not sure what you've all grown up with, what the model is. But it seems so placid and private and locked away. Given this is it any wonder that we struggle to get people engaged in what we really believe history will show to be issues of earth shattering importance to our species? One last point that didn't really come out in my original post. One of the most shocking things about my friends who profess some sort of political will is that they still wholeheartedly believe in the Democratic party. I find this both hilarious and devastatingly sad. As far as I can tell, only an absolute fool would set even the slightest stock in the Dems today. They are a spent and lost political force barely keeping their heads above water in a sinking ship of a system. Every now and then I visit Democratic Underground and I read some of the posts on their message boards and - truly - it makes me chuckle. They read a bit like the e-mails I get from the over eager parents who are arranging things at my kids' school. They're assuming this force of something is behind them and it so clearly isn't. At least at my kids school the faculty is behind the parents efforts, but the DU posters..? Who or what exactly are they supporting? I don't see the Mothership. That light twinkled out some while back. So, again. Here we are. And I've no idea where 'here' really is.

by **NewKid** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:50 am

HMKGrey, do they have the saying in England that there are 3 things you're never supposed to talk about in polite conversation -- sex, religion, and politics? People here will talk about it depending on what group you're in and how well they know each other. But in upper middle class and professional circles, there's a very small spectrum of acceptable opinion and it basically tracks the mainstream media consensus stuff like you see on Meet the Press. People just know when to shut up and what not to say. They don't really need to be told, they pick it up by cue taking others. Lewis Lapham's written alot on this in Harper's essays for the last 30 years. About, status, money and class, go along to get along stuff. They also can't get past the point that if it were really any different than MSNBC said, surely someone would have told them about it. They're brought up in the schools with a fairly tale version of the country; that we're exempt from the laws of history and this great noble democracy and all. No other regime in history was, but we are. We're just that great and all. They really believe that stuff. Their teachers told them that, the textbooks present it that way. Bill Clinton's consensus reality was brilliant PR and illusion. The state of the country at the time made it very hard for a lot of people to believe anything outside of consensus reality. Bush has done a lot to harm that with his naked lying. It's like DE said, when you have a good image, why have a bull in china shop come along and destroy it? Why not politely agree with someone and metaphorically slit their throat behind the scenes in private afterwards as opposed to metaphorically taking a baseball bat to them in front of everyone? It's bizarre and the main reason why Albright and Holbrooke and all the Dem foreign policy crowd is appalled. It's because the appearance is so damn bad. On why your friends believe in the Dems, it's all they've got and anything to beat the republicans is something. They want to stop the bleeding any way they can. They don't see a third party coming at all. That's like aliens landing or something to them. It's just way out there and unrealistic to them.

by **Blueberry** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:50 am

I've given this video to some friends to watch and it has opened up tough dyed-in-the-wool types The Money Masters if you can give them a copy to watch or they can (but, they won't and you already know that) go to MadCowPolitics.com video form and watch the video. It works because they have passed on the video to their friends. Just and idea. Have to start somewhere.

by **Gouda** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:07 am

'drew, sunny, New, Grey - nice discush. I conclude in part from your picture here that americans are so infused with the idea of 'ownership', and 'identity' that this is part of the devolutionary problem - and the political elite easily exploit this. Activists "own" the heller issue, while the rest of the people either do not hear about it, or they feel that the "activists" are the only ones entitled to or capable of handling the issue. Apart from normal protective self-delusion, this ties into a another problem which is lack of humility and lack of respect for others, especially in the intelligentsia of the right and left. Regular people on the other hand, suffer from lack of confidence in their own abilities and power. It is moral and intellectual impoverishment either way. It is a lack of imagination as well. The Dems are finished. (See latest outrage in Feingold thread). To 'fail' in the face of the most corrupt, mean, and ruthless administration in american history can only mean a few things: they are compromised to the hilt; they are colluding at the highest levels; and/or all of the above grounded in the fact that the Dems have NO moral authority even over the GOP. Their veil has fallen, and we should rejoice in seeing the truth. Keep plugging away at your friends with facts - but the psychological approach taken is also key. I think Jeff has done well to deconstruct & expose the psychological barriers to 'conspiracy' and 'conspiracy theory', and this has opened new space for people to reconstruct with new intellectual grounding. Keep building. As for "guided reincarnation", I just made that up on the spot (or it came to me on the spot as some kind of compelling possibility). I'm heading over to google (which means 'clusty' for me) right now... Support Heller. If he can win this case with the help of an ample legal team, it will be a shot in favor of all of us who may come into his situation someday. It might also put a sting in any future Diebold (and their damned law firms) machinations.  on edit: needed to change subject heading... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 3/15/06 4:26 am

by **NewKid** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:19 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Keep plugging away at your friends with facts - but the psychological approach taken is also key.<hr></blockquote> No question. And remember too, you're battling a lifetime of conditioning. There are a lot of uncomfortable feelings in people when they're forced to confront that. The implications of it may impact them more than just on a political level. People may be forced to confront their life's work, their friends and family and all if they start to realize some of this stuff. So there are some big barriers to overcome. It won't happen overnight. But Bush has probably done more to break the ice than any of us ever could.

by **Gouda** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:04 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The implications of it may impact them more than just on a political level. People may be forced to confront their life's work, their friends and family and all if they start to realize some of this stuff.<hr></blockquote> Yes. In fact, I can testify to this very thing. Just the other day I was speaking with a liberal, youngish (30) european foreign service deputy working in the EU parliament. We got into a long discussion about bird flu, vaccines, tsunami relief, cancer cures, big pharma, the balkans intervention, EU enlargement, HIV in africa. All issues that the EU and he (and his parents before him) are concerned with - issues he must feel the EU (which is in fact providing him with a very comfortable life) is working in a positive direction. Africa, for example. Their endemic poverty, disease, war and ethnic cleansings, are due only to corrupt African governments, working in spite of benevolent western relief programs. Serbia was backward and corrupt. EU enlargement will lift these balkan countries out of poverty. No laboratory, government, or corporation would ever, ever sit on a cure or vaccine and keep it from the public. The profit motive does not apply to life-saving technologies. (Nevermind depop agendas). Western governments and wealthy philanthropists are truly benevolent; flawed, sure, but of the best intentions. He was more inclined to give a hearing to and accept dirty truths about US/CIA conspiratorial malfeasance, just as most americans are willing to see conspiracies only outside their own personal and national borders. I played devil’s advocate, diplomat to the diplomat, arbitrating between his perspective and one of deeper politics. His reaction even to the mildest suggestion of deeper politics or conspiracy was one of defensive disbelief. He countered that such a viewpoint denotes a cynical “attitude”. The problem was one of attitude, not of truth. As if one had decided to see the ugly side of the establishment just for the stubborn, outsider sake of it. I understand how and why he feels as he does, I really do. And he is a good guy. Now I know how to better approach such topics with him down the road. It'll take a little trial and error. edit: grammar thing Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 3/15/06 7:16 am

by **NewKid** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:02 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Western governments and wealthy philanthropists are truly benevolent; flawed, sure, but of the best intentions. <hr></blockquote> It's truly stunning, but yes, upper middle class and upper class folks in the US firmly believe this. If you were to challenge them on it, they would look at you like you just said the word "nigger" or something. The other thing these types battle even if they suspect or realize what's going on is that the cost benefit analysis weighs against them doing anything. The cost can be huge; they're out there by themselves or affiliated with marginal groups, which has untold potential cost to their careers and social status in their minds. The benefit is very low since they don't think one person can really accomplish very much. They look at all these hard working activists and don't see anything happening, so for them, it's not worth the jump. It's a collective action, tragedy of the commons problem on a big scale.

by **HMKGrey** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:01 pm

I think you nail it there Newkid. It's that old 'people with a lot to lose' problem again. Sometimes I even get to wondering if we're not actually just seeing an inevitable human societal trait playing out here, one that may have gone on for centuries and that will go on for centuries more... and maybe it's sort of a universal and inter species thing too. Works like this for us: - All governments are naturally predisposed towards despotism. - They're normally held in check by 'the people' because 'the people' will ultimatelt revolt against too much despotic behavior. - That is until the middle or ownership class is so big that so many people have something to lose that the vast majority will essentially give the despots a free pass so long as things remain essentially the same in an optical sense. - Thus, we have America and much of the west today. The ownership society has created giant middle classes and where that's failed we've got cheap consumer goods to keep the non-owners fat and happy (glued to their 42" flat screens, at least)... so who gives a rats ass about blowing up some ever more distant, dehumanized and unreal people in some ever more distant place. Oh, and there's one other thing. As communication speeds up (societal evolution as much as technological evolution) so dissenters find ever more avenues to voice their dissent and feel release for their frustrations. So instead of actually meeting in cafes and on street corners and sensing our own physical and numerical power (dangerous) we're easily subdued and effectively silenced by venting our spleens over this new fangled thing called the internet. All that energy that used to get spent in a march or even a riot now gets spent in the comfort of our own homes - making it entirely benign. Just my $0.02. But I really do wonder if this scenario as it's playing out isn't all somewhat inevitable. This is how humanlike societies evolve and are undone. Sorry to be so grim.

by **NewKid** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:33 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So instead of actually meeting in cafes and on street corners and sensing our own physical and numerical power (dangerous) we're easily subdued and effectively silenced by venting our spleens over this new fangled thing called the internet. All that energy that used to get spent in a march or even a riot now gets spent in the comfort of our own homes - making it entirely benign. <hr></blockquote> True indeed. It's a part of a larger issue within the very broad topic that I (and perhaps others) would call reality deregulation. Part of this is the notion of the 'daily me' -- the place on the internet where you can go hear only the information you want to hear and custom tailor your reality to fit your desire. The right wing loves this quite a bit because everything devolves into partisan squabbling, and nothing becomes objectively proveable anymore. The Suskind quote captures this in a nutshell. But the point you raise is another big part of it as well. You have to think that some folks in DOD and certainly elsewhere in society thought quite a bit about the ramifications of the internet and the ability to access knowledge that used to be fairly inaccessible to the average person. That has to have worried these folks quite a bit. But of course, it also had the predictable effect you describe which is to take people out of a physical arena where they might meet and instead substitute online communities. Throw in a huge helping of irrational paranoia about how dangerous the internet is and how you can't trust anyone (also fueled in tv land by the you-have-to-look-out-for-number-one-and-kill-off-your-neighbor- shows like Survivor, Big Brother, the Apprentice, Dog Eat Dog, and on and on), and you have a great tool to breakdown some of the effectiveness and positive benefits of the internet. You also have a way you can monitor people much more directly as well. The much bigger issue and threat comes with the technology in the future that enables much more rapid and sophisticated processing of information. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=newkid@rigorousintuition>NewKid</A> at: 3/15/06 11:35 pm

by **HMKGrey** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:47 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You have to think that some folks in DOD and certainly elsewhere in society thought quite a bit about the ramifications of the internet and the ability to access knowledge that used to be fairly inaccessible to the average person. That has to have worried these folks quite a bit. But of course, it also had the predictable effect you describe which is to take people out of a physical arena where they might meet and instead substitute online communities. Throw in a huge helping of irrational paranoia about how dangerous the internet is and how you can't trust anyone (also fueled in tv land by the you-have-to-look-out-for-number-one-and-kill-off-your-neighbor- shows like Survivor, Big Brother, the Apprentice, Dog Eat Dog, and on and on), and you have a great tool to breakdown some of the effectiveness and positive benefits of the internet. You also have a way you can monitor people much more directly as well.<hr></blockquote> Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I wonder if some Black Budget psy-ops guys haven't been having an absolute field day ever since the internet went global trawling data and analyzing incredible amounts of patterns and behavior characteristics just watching the human race interact with each other and respond to information in this entirely new way. Like watching birds in flight probably... Just moving patterns, connected and related but not connected and not related at the same time. I guess we're guinea pigs for all of this. I often like to think that the PTB completely underestimated the internet when they put their plan in to action on 9/11 - that they didn't know how much we could find out and share with each other but my theory sort of falls over now. I see them thumbing manilla files of data and tables that show just how resistant people are to all of this fresh information, how the average human mind doesn't actually want to know about the crimes they've committed. How it just doesn't matter what comes out. Maybe there are still some raw nerves around. Sex scandal? I'd put a few dollars on that still being able to get the average American hot under the collar, but it increasingly seems like there's nothing else. And of course, Herr Goering's 'Big Lie' theories are practiced to perfection by this shower. Deep down I like to think that the universe moves inextricably towards light and so something will give. In the end, we'll get them. Or, more likely, they'll get themselves. Peace.

by **NewKid** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I guess we're guinea pigs for all of this. I often like to think that the PTB completely underestimated the internet when they put their plan in to action on 9/11 - that they didn't know how much we could find out and share with each other but my theory sort of falls over now. I see them thumbing manilla files of data and tables that show just how resistant people are to all of this fresh information, how the average human mind doesn't actually want to know about the crimes they've committed. How it just doesn't matter what comes out. Maybe there are still some raw nerves around. Sex scandal? I'd put a few dollars on that still being able to get the average American hot under the collar, but it increasingly seems like there's nothing else. And of course, Herr Goering's 'Big Lie' theories are practiced to perfection by this shower. <hr></blockquote> Sure, you're right, most people don't want to know because it's fairly uncomfortable and destabilizing to their world view like we've talked about before. You also have to remember that people just want to have some sort of narcotic when they get home from work and are done with the kids or whatever. They don't want to analyze political machinations or hear arguments about how the towers fell. Cable tv and internet porn are basically that narcotic for a large segment of the population. For the more curious members of the population, there's an endless amount of drivel and disinformation for them to wade through. For the left, they have cue taking figures like Chomsky and David Corn types who try and hang a big "go-away" sign all over an issue like 9-11 and so it's left to the self-proclaimed internet investigators to look into it. But what your average guy who's open minded sees is very flaky looking people making wild arguments about 9-11 and other issues and while they suspect it might be true, they just don't know what to make of people like Mike Ruppert or Victor Thorn or Alex Jones. So a lot just give up or they maybe they believe but it becomes just a sort of entertainment or speculation. Meanwhile, conspiracies involving anyone other than arabs, or mafia dons, or communists, or the occassional small number of business executives are mocked and ridiculed as impossible in mainstream discourse. And so it goes nowhere. But you're right, the internet from day one has surely been a massive surveillance tool. AOL and MSN and I'm sure all the others were compiling this information way before 9-11.

by **NewKid** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:52 am

One more thing -- Hugh Manatee was right when he said they never ever want a repeat of the 1960s again. As fucked up as it was, it scared the shit out of them. They learned a bunch from it. Never again.

Whistleblower Charged w/ Three Felonies, Exposing Diebold

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