The war between the right and the extreme right

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The war between the right and the extreme right

Postby starroute » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:27 pm

We're all aware that US Paleocons don't much like the Neocons, partly for good reasons (they're wrecking the country), partly for bad (covert anti-Semitism.) But something in Xymphora this morning made me wonder if that antagonism might be only a small aspect of a much larger conflict:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2005/11/israel-and-global-right.html">xymphora.blogspot.com/200...right.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>People always ask why we pick on the Israelis so much, when Israel is such a small insignificant country. The reason is that the Israeli right, preoccupied with its imperialist plans, has made itself a world leader in the mainstream-but-extreme right in order to form the alliances it needs in order to carry out those plans. These nuts have not only destroyed their own country and its once promising socialist and fully democratic future, but are having a greatly disproportionate malign influence on the whole world. . . .<br><br>What is even worse is that this Israeli imperialist ideology has been marketed by the Israeli right in a vile package of policies. It is not an accident that neocon American/Israeli imperialism is coupled with neocon every-man-for-himself economic policies. The packaged product marketed to the world-wide right ties support for Likudnik imperialist policies to support for American hegemony (for the American imperialists and their stooges like Britain), support for Ledeenesque total-war polices (for the international arms trade, in which the Israeli right is a big player), and support for rapacious capitalism (which all right-wingers like, but which is particularly appealing to Bush's Christian Zionist 'base').<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I've done a lot of posting this week in threads following Alexander Dugin and the Eurasianists and the Nationalist Bolshevik party -- people who are essentially latter-day Nazis but with a dab of communism added to the mix and with a Eurasian rather than a Nordic basis to their racism. And having all that at the back of my mind, I was struck very strongly by the fact that what Xymphora describes as "the mainstream-but-extreme right" is exactly what these genuine extreme rightists most hate:<br><br>They are violently opposed to American hegemony. They are anti-Semites in the old-fashioned quasi-mystical Nazi manner. And they appeal to their followers by decrying the depredations of global free-market capitalism.<br><br>What scares me most about this situation is that even if the left does manage to discredit the current mainstream right, it might merely create an opening for these guys to swoop in posing as populists and take hold. At the moment, this seems particularly likely in countries that have suffered the most under globalization (the Philippines may be especially vulnerable), but it's not impossible even in the US, particularly if there is a major economic crashout in the near future.<br><br>The one thing I see that could forestall this would be a strong, effective message on the left -- which certainly doesn't exist in the US at this point. In fact, if we're looking for saviors, Latin America may be our best hope. Not only is their experience with fascism more recent and more gruesome than in most other parts of the world, but Hugo Chavez and his allies actually seem to be experimenting with some viable alternative policies.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The war between the right and the extreme right

Postby sussurus2 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:50 pm

Likely no saviors in the future, much as it might be nice to think so.<br><br>If such political movements (national & international) are as meticulously engineered on a historical scale as some of us feel they are, then your scenario, above, can be considered very prescient. <br><br>Your scenario also exposes a missing piece of the the theory that has been presented earlier on this and other boards: that this current egregious swing to the right is going to be followed by an apparent swing to the left, which will just be an NWO ploy to make everyone relax and enjoy becoming even more a part of the even kinder & gentler global hegemony. A future where the US can be "friends again" with the international community, even while we're reduced to 3rd rate power, economy in shambles, and recovering from being the most recently featured Bad Guy on stage. And our people will be happy to compete with citizens in Bangalore, etc. for ever lower wages.<br><br>What your scenario adds is the other side of the political picture--how to convince the right that they're also better off/happier/won something when the Neos get tossed out, and painted black. <br><br>While the right as you state above would be somewhat re-stored and coalesce around your cryptopopulist/fascist better-than-those-other-guys alternative, the pseudo-left (similarly fascists-in-sheeps clothing) are doing their pandering dance in at the same time, promising similarly populist BS, and we'd continue to accept less & less actual personal freedoms while thinking that the benign "new" alternative (really the global hegemony) is a "return to normalcy" or even an improvement--complete with tighter environmental regs, and other restrictions that divorce us further from the natural world, each other, and any actual independence & self-determination. <br><br>And everyone feels good (for a time) in the illusion that we'd made real progress after this whacked out ultra-right NeoCon binge. The pendulum appears to swing back left, but it's actually suspended in the far right, just not so far right, for another two decades of hell.<br><br>S. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The war between the right and the extreme right

Postby eric144 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:56 pm

Well the danger of simple anti-semitic, anti-globalist nazism is there for any individual looking at extreme right wing neocon economics (Friedman and the Chicago school that destroyed the UK economy) and belligerence.<br><br>Vladmir Putin has talked about 'the forces of intermaional finance' , which is similar language to Hitler and even Zionism. Russia is where the anti-semitic pogroms of 100 years and more ago set off a chain of events that deeply affected much of the twentieth century.<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eric144>eric144</A> at: 11/9/05 11:58 am<br></i>
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Re: The war between the right and the extreme right

Postby slimmouse » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:06 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And everyone feels good (for a time) in the illusion that we'd made real progress after this whacked out ultra-right NeoCon binge. The pendulum appears to swing back left, but it's actually suspended in the far right, just not so far right, for another two decades of hell.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Bingo. <br><br> What should be patently obvious to anyone with a brain, is that the difference between communism and Neo connism/ Extreme right, or any other other version or vision of politics that we care to mention, is little to zero.<br><br> Thus, it is essentially the same as its always been. The haves putting the agenda - reshaped one way and the next , to the have nots. <br><br> What we really need is a complete upending of the whole fucking system. But of course that we requires collective accountability. And with the drugged up, psyched down, brain dead TV culture we have developed, then what chance of that ?<br> <br> If its any consolation however, we must at least take some heart from the fact that the PTB are making some kind of elaborate "pole shift" from their Ivory towers, which sort of answers an earlier question from someone on another thread, as to why these elaborate mechanisms are brought in to play; Namely that people arent THAT stupid as to allow the banking and super rich elite to dump on them continuously.<br><br> Whether or not that will make any difference in the long run, is of course another matter completely. But hell, at least we can try. And whilst I can fully appreciate the forewarned is forearmed nature of much of the discussion on here, surely the best place to start, is to look at where we are right now ! <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The war between the right and the extreme right

Postby eric144 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:15 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your scenario also exposes a missing piece of the the theory that has been presented earlier on this and other boards: that this current egregious swing to the right is going to be followed by an apparent swing to the left, which will just be an NWO ploy to make everyone relax and enjoy becoming even more a part of the even kinder & gentler global hegemony. A future where the US can be "friends again" with the international community, even while we're reduced to 3rd rate power, economy in shambles, and recovering from being the most recently featured Bad Guy on stage. And our people will be happy to compete with citizens in Bangalore, etc. for ever lower wages.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Fantastic, yes. The new left is here already in the shape of George Soros, a man deeply involved with the inner reaches of the global octopus. The Clintons, Kerry, Wesley Clark, Michael Moore could be useful bit players also. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The war between the right and the extreme right

Postby Gouda » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:36 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The one thing I see that could forestall this would be a strong, effective message on the left -- which certainly doesn't exist in the US at this point. In fact, if we're looking for saviors, Latin America may be our best hope.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Chavez, yes, from above, and the Zapatistas, from below. It will be interesting how the Zaps' "Other Campaign" plays out this coming election year in Mexico. <br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.narconews.com/Issue39/article1452.html">www.narconews.com/Issue39...e1452.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>“Together, We’re Going to Shake This Country Up from Below, Lift It Up, and Stand It on Its Head” - Opening Words from the First Plenary Session of the Other Campaign<br><br>By Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos<br>Zapatista Army of National Liberation, Chiapas, Mexico<br>September 17, 2005<br><br>- snip - <br><br>"The Other Campaign must name, then, our prisoners and our disappeared, but also our dead. When we do this work, we do not look toward the future; or we do, but in reverse: looking toward our past, toward our deaths. If we only look ahead, we get excuses; realism like “we have to be mature, prudent,” “we have to think about what is possible,” “we can’t do this,” “we can’t do the other,” “be careful.”<br><br>Let us then, together, see to the duties we have accumulated, to the debts. Let us fight for them, for our dead, and for ourselves; then tomorrow will live, with its own strength, and will be, undoubtedly, something different.<br><br>If we look toward the future forgetting where we come from, we get excuses, good sense, prudence, fear, surrender, and worst of all, betrayal, that is, our betrayal of ourselves.<br><br>Hoping to leave new liberties to future generations, we are instead leaving them balls and chains. Let us let them decide their own destiny, as that and nothing else is what it means to be free."<br><br><br>More EZLN/Zapatista news, con La Sexta: <br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.narconews.com/docs/conlasexta.html">www.narconews.com/docs/conlasexta.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The war between the right and the extreme right

Postby Dreams End » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:30 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What scares me most about this situation is that even if the left does manage to discredit the current mainstream right, it might merely create an opening for these guys to swoop in posing as populists and take hold.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I think that is a very good observation. And while I don't subscribe to the inceasingly tiresome idea that one single group --illuminati, whatever, is running every detail of the whole program (not your point...that's the spin other posters are putting on it, I'd add that much of the left is, in fact, rather phony. I'm speaking of the US now. Some is bought by establishment foundations and some co-opted by rightists and some infected with new age, self-centeredness. but that's different, of course, from saying the left and right are the same. <br><br>So I do wonder how much of this is really a 'war' between right and extreme right and how much is some kind of gamesmanship or simply difference in tactics. That's an open question for me.<br><br>However, I will say that we often forget that fascism is a REVOLUTIONARY movement. So just because a groups sees the current system is corrupt and therefore should be overthrown, does not make them my friend. Ask carefully: what will they put in its place? <p></p><i></i>
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The far right is blowing the cover story of the right.

Postby Watchful Citizen » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:59 pm

I think the merely right sees that the far-right neocons have allowed the bloody truth of fascism to be smelled yet again and will replace them with better salesmen for The American Way to resuscitate the Big Lie of American Virtue. Magic Uncle Sam can't get the rubes to look at the right hand when there's blood dripping out his left sleeve.<br><br>If USA, Inc. is going to continue to be sold as a humanitarian organization along the lines of a nuclear-armed Red Cross or Superman Jesus, then either Big Brother's cointelpro will have to be kicked way up or a new window display artist must be hired with more limited hang-out hearings and sacrificial lambs like the mid-70s.<br><br> It took a generation of Reaganizing psy-ops to remilitarize American culture and develop a new boogeyman after Nixon was disposed of, the Vietnam War ended (with POWs left behind to close that door), and the Cold War was 'won.'<br><br>Despite the end of the USSR, capitalism is still looking inadequate at home despite the victory laps in the middle east.<br><br>As resistance to the Iraq War (which is a cover story for permanent occupation) grows, the neocons are now getting checked by those who don't want the public's Vietnam Syndrome II-rejection of corporate war and CIA torture to take hold as it did when Vietnam Pentagon/CIA atrocities turned an entire generation against corporate war as a system thereby driving it to rely more on covert tactics.<br><br>The Great American Myth will be harder to maintain with the post-Vietnam internet-reading middle-class even as it is winnowed and I'll bet that a Clinton-esque muddled middle will be carved out for us to accept with resignation ("atleast he's not Bush/Reagan") in the person of General Wesley Winning Modern Wars Clark who says nice things about the environment while spreading depleted uranium on civilians from high-altitude bombers.<br>(Dreams End- Now I can see even mention of Larouche really hits your disinfo amygdala alarm. Understandable. Clark hits mine for his cult is far more powerful and far more insidious having actually written the book on psy-ops as a tool of governance.)<br><br>Since this week is the anniversary of the Nov. 2004 annihilation of Falluja and its images of dog-eaten and white phosphorus-burned corpses are seered into my mind forever, I give you Clark's all-things-to-all-people 11/12/04 Washington Post psycho-political essay called 'Winning in Fallujah is Just the Beginning' by way of showing our future.<br><br>He cleverly questions the usefullness (not morality) of 'destroying the village to save it' and then says that must be done and much worse to exterminate the will to resist elsewhere. <br><br>Note Clark's use of MindWar as described by Michael Aquino, projecting the 'inevitability' of victory to friends and foes alike. <br><br>As you read, think of the Iraqi insurgents he purports to be discussing as also being the domestic American progressive anti-war anti-corporate pro-human rights pro-democracy pro-environment pro-Constitution 'left.' (Some of them think of themselves as Democrats.)<br><br>Because we are the first target of the Pentagon's occupational 'Stability Operations.'<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47034-2004Nov12.html">www.washingtonpost.com/wp...Nov12.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>>snip<<br><br> To win means not just to occupy the city, but to do so in a way that knocks the local opponent permanently out of the fight, demoralizes broader resistance, and builds legitimacy for U.S. aims, methods and allies. Seen this way, the battle for Fallujah is not just a matter of shooting. It is part of a larger bargaining process that has included negotiations, threats and staged preparations to pressure insurgent groups into preemptive surrender, to deprive them of popular tolerance and support, and to demonstrate to the Iraqi people and to others that force was used only as a last resort in order to gain increased legitimacy for the interim Iraqi government.<br><br>Even the use of force required a further calculus. Had we relentlessly destroyed the city and killed large numbers of innocent civilians, or suffered crippling losses in the fighting, we most certainly would have been judged "losers." And if we can't hold on and prevent the insurgents from infiltrating back in -- as has now occurred in the recently "liberated" city of Samarra -- we also shall have lost.<br><br>The battle plan was tailored to prevent significant destruction. It called for a slow squeeze, starting with precision strikes against identified targets, and followed by a careful assault directed at taking out the opposition and reoccupying the city, while minimizing civilian and friendly casualties. We have superior mobility, with heavily armored vehicles; we have superior firepower, with the Bradley's 25mm cannon, M1A1 Abrams tanks, artillery and airstrikes; we have advantages in reconnaissance, with satellites, TV-equipped unmanned aerial vehicles and a whole array of electronic gear. But urban combat partially neutralizes these advantages. A weaker defender can inflict much punishment with only a meager force fighting from the rubble, provided they fight to the death.<br><br>>snip<<br><br>HA! Clark's is the most cogent statement by the ruling fascist right about controlling Americans with psy-ops:<br>"Had we relentlessly destroyed the city and killed large numbers of innocent civilians, or suffered crippling losses in the fighting, we most certainly would have been judged "losers." And if we can't hold on and prevent the insurgents from infiltrating back in -- as has now occurred in the recently "liberated" city of Samarra -- we also shall have lost."<br><br>I contend that it is up to the likes of those of us here at RI and other better informed websites to make the case to the rest of America that the ruling elite are indeed "losers" for the reasons General Clark so helpfully mentioned.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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some notes

Postby glubglubglub » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:12 pm

as a long-time reader of xymphora I can tell you that something weird's happened -- a major shift in writing style since ~ a year ago or so, and a sublter shift in outlook...I suspect that the site was always an intelligence/disinfo outlet of sorts, but it recently may have been seized and/or repurposed to serve a slightly different agenda. Caveat lector, I suppose: the only issue w. xymphora is who's puting the info out, not that it is official (dis)info or propaganda from somewhere.<br><br>---<br><br>I was going to put this in the blacklite thread but it goes better here and so I will put it here instead:<br><br>From as near as I can tell when you follow the money + influence strings all the way to the top you arrive at a class of people -- largely hereditary in that it's difficult to drop out of that class except by betrayal/intrigue, although it's possible to ascend to that class by 'merit' -- who largely consider the world their private estate(s) to administer as they see fit; this isn't meant to be metaphorical, as for the most part they actually do ascribe to the view that, very literally, they own the world.<br><br>In the days when the equivalent class was more brazen about things -- say, the feudal era on earlier -- this property relationship was made quite explicit: serfs knew they were owned and who owned them; this explicitness led to the danger of decapitation attacks and the proverbial torches-and-pitchforks attack...the revolution of the modern era is that the current such elite class is sufficiently diffuse and obscure that its presence isn't readily apparent and, consequently, the risk of decapitation attacks is substantially reduced.<br><br>To keep the serfs entertained -- after all, you might become unmanagably upset if you were daily aware that you were the perceived property of agents far wealthier + more powerful than you and that many of the difficulties seemingly inherent to your situation were artifacts of your owners' manipulation -- a system analogous to a casino is in place; I will justify the analogy below, but keep in mind that a casino is one of the few places where one is effectively guaranteed to fritter away one's resources while gaining little beyond the rush of throwing good effort after bad.<br><br>On to casinos: aside from the glitter, glamour, and dancing girls, a typical casino offers three kinds of games:<br>i) guaranteed-lose games: these games (roulette, slot machines, etc.) are mathematically fixed so as to favor the house; playing against these is a measure of your personal egoism ("I WILL get lucky tonight") versus your rational mind ("But my odds of coming out ahead are astronomically small" or "I should know better but perhaps just this once I will...").<br>ii) guaranteed-rake games: these games (poker, usually) are games of skill (ie, not exclusively luck), and because of the skill factor you typically play against other players, with the house raking off an entrance fee you pay for the priviledge of playing; these games you're free to win at all you want, unless you do so in a sufficiently unsavory manner to scare off other players.<br>iii) guaranteeable-win games: these games (blackjack the prime example) were traditional games that were later shown to be beatable with sufficient mental acuity and advance planning; they are kept around because<br>a) more people think they can beat those games than can actually beat them<br>b) getting rid of the games would be bad for business -- it'd be a sign of ruthlessly eliminating opportunities to win, which clashes with the illusions that make the type i) games so popular<br>c) by keeping the games widely known to be beatable around -- ie, blackjack -- it provides flypaper to attract the ambitious sorts and identify them; getting rid of, say, blackjack might cause trouble if the smarties tried to break other games, but with blackjack available most smarties are lazy enough to go for the easy money<br>d) and, finally, the simple fact of the matter is that one collects one's winnings at the leisure of the house, and consequently if somone's, say, counting cards, it's not a whole lot of trouble to void out his winnings entirely; this ability to play fast and loose with the apparent 'rules of the game' mitigates most of the downsides of keeping the type iii) games available.<br><br>Here is how the casino analogy applies:<br><br>Under ordinary circumstances in the west -- ie, w/out a real totalitarian in place -- the political system is a game of type i): a participatory game that appeals to egoism -- maybe this time our embattled movement / my elected representatives / our particular issue will find success / represent my interests / be advanced -- but a game whose outcome is largely scripted in advance (aside from isolated, random pockets of legitimate winning or losing) in such a way to make sure that no matter who wins, you lose. As in the casinos -- where games of type i) are simultaneously the most popular and most addicting -- so in the real world: the vast bulk of people trying to 'make a difference' fritter away their time playing this game.<br><br>The economic systems tend to be games of type ii): closer to (somewhat winnable) games of skill than the fixed games of type i). For the most part, the economic systems pit people against each other to collect chits that have value within the systems but can only under very restricted circumstances be exchanged for something of value outside the system (the typical restrictions are either that the amount exchanged be very small, or that it be very large -- there's a huge deadspace in the middle ranges).<br><br>(here's the relevant part of this to blacklite)<br><br>Looking into free-ish energy or starting towards building the infrastructure for truly effective alternative means of social organization and production -- these things are games of type iii). And just like in the casinos, if you go about them the wrong way -- overly ambitious, overly noticed, overly evangelistic -- you'll quickly find yourself dragged out back and roughed up a bit, or worse; even if you're subtle about it when you get caught you wind up typically getting a warning or two, the disregarding of which will only lead to getting the hammer brought down.<br><br>It's usually not worth the trouble to harass you if you keep to yourself about your activities in general -- hence the basic code of silence that's afoot amongst the real investigators in that area -- and thus there's a little window of freedom (which I think if properly exploited is enough, but don't want to say more on that, esp. here).<br><br>(blacklite thread relevance ends here)<br><br>So now that I've set up this large metaphor, what is my point? Simply that worrying about general trends in politics is a lot like worrying about staffing the casino, and trying to divine their masters' intentions by reading the political tea leaves is a bit silly -- it's interesting and captivating in the way that a bouncing roulette ball is en route to its destination, but we know where it'll end up: far, far away from where the significant majority of those playing wished it'd end up.<br><br>And, just like in the casinos, if you know that a machine is fixed to have players lose more than they win, you shouldn't let some flashing lights and the occasional win -- no matter how big -- convince you that the long-term trend is a net negative. <br><br>Of course -- since the end goal seems to be complete and completely solidified ownership of the real wealth of the world -- of course there will be a succession of victories for this or that group, but each victory will carry with it the seeds of larger losses down the road; that should be expected, not surprising.<br><br>---<br><br>What, then, to do? I'd argue that the only successful strategies are the following (and ideally a combination of both):<br>i) make conditions such that no one but no one is voluntarily willing to staff the proverbial casino...ie, for so long as collaborating with the masters leads to some measurable increase in personal situation there will always be collaborators; if, on the otherhand, it is a virtual certainty that collaborating will only bring you more pain than its worth -- your home and family burned before your eyes (see Polish history), your getting tarred, feathered, and beaten to death in view of fellow collaborators -- you can expect the rank of willing collaborators to shrink overnight. People are people, and the techniques of terrorism work well against populace and 'leaders' alike. Nasty and brutish, sure, but very capable when well applied...there are less severe forms of this, but for the most part there does seem to be a direct correlation between the harshness of the mechanism and the effectiveness.<br>ii) dilute the enforceability of the masters' property claims over you. This deserves more explanation: the funny thing about 'property' is that it is most easily possessed when those who would dispute the claim pose little threat to those making it; in other words, as a practical matter if you cannot defend one's claim to one's purported property economically enough to justify the expense of defending it one's claim on that property is effectively moot.<br>What this strategy means is, first and foremost, shifting the economic structure away from direct dependency -- currently personal food and energy supplies drop off after 2-4 days without functional infrastructure (viz New Orleans), but there's no reason a cultural and technological shift towards (reasonable amounts of) hoarding and local food/energy production; similarly, giving the masses access to the same kinds of surveillance technology regularly employed against them raises the barrier to getting disappeared or mistreated -- if it's no longer possible to swoop in unnoticed and do dirty deeds, fewer dirty deeds will be worth the cost of entry ( for example, if the investigator had had hidden cameras throughout her home the assailant would be found that much more easily, and future, similar dirty deeds would be that much more costly and therefore that much rarer ); similarly, a fit and healthy populace -- not to mention an armed or trained populace ( that's actually willing to use those skills ) is that much more difficult to control.<br><br>Both of these strategies synergize quite well -- strategy ii) in general raises the cost of enforcing the masters' claims of ownership, strategy i) reduces the ranks of the masters' enforcers (and gradually draws out the hidden hand of the masters more explicitly).<br><br>---<br><br>All of the above is an EXTREMELY lengthy explanation/justification for the following position:<br>i) the visible workings of politics are just glitter + distraction to keep occupied those who might otherwise change things for the better<br>ii) the political realm is sufficiently intricate and full of obscure influences that even apparently positive changes can be manipulated to become negative<br>ergo<br>iii) it is easy to spend overmuch effort analyzing the glints of hope emanating from the disco ball of politics, but if you step back you can both see the pattern for what it is -- at which point its overall trend is entirely predictable and the glimmers here and there lose their appeal<br>and ergo<br>iv) the proper use of time + effort isn't into influencing or shaping politics -- that's too slippery an area and also largely rigged (ie, a type i) game ) -- but rather on, slowly but surely, changing the physical reality of the game for the better (ie, in ways that dilute the grip of the 'masters' over time).<br><br>If I sound a bit harsh it's mainly b/c I've had the (mis)fortune to rub shoulders with plenty of the scions of the (lower rungs of) the elite and had the misfortune of dealing with some of the bastards themselves, and really the only variation in their outlook -- that they, unofficially and collectively, own the country/theworld -- is whether they have, internally, drawn from 'we own the country' the conclusion that 'and that means you, too' explicitly or implicitly.<br><br>It isn't that political discussion is entirely futile -- if, ultimately, a better world is to be made a plan must be established and implemented -- but simply that change made in the political sphere can be clamped down and perverted; changes made in the physical world will have effects that propagate back up the power hierarchy, and if enough changes rattle that brittle hierarchy it may shatter. <p></p><i></i>
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adding Clark's comment on 'inevitibility' of victory

Postby Watchful Citizen » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:14 pm

because I didn't include it above but referenced it-<br><br>"Now that we have engaged, there cannot be any doubt about the outcome. It, too, is inevitable. U.S. forces don't "lose" on the battlefield these days. We haven't lost once in Iraq. Nor in Afghanistan. Not in the Balkans, or in the first Gulf War. Nor in Panama. We fight where we are told and win where we fight."<br><br>Clark also made a joint appearance with Richard Perle in Kazakhstan to assure the Eurasian Media Forum that "Iraq was not Vietnam" in order to assure cooperative regimes that they had not bet on the wrong horse in development of Caspian Sea oil and gas.<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050425-114020-4142r">www.wpherald.com/storyvie...4020-4142r</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Two weeks later Clark and Perle played 'opponents' in front of the House Armed Services Commitee for the benefit of his good cop presidential candidacy to replace the bad cop neocons if need be.<br><br>All generals must now also be theater majors. <br>"Please bring a choice of monologues about defending freedom with war as a last resort. You may also be asked to play opposite a foil." <p></p><i></i>
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Technology could be a pivot point

Postby starroute » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:19 pm

Point 1: There is an excellent little book called "Giving Up the Gun," about how Japan acquired guns from the first Europeans to show up in the 1500's and very quickly got extremely got at gunmaking. But a generation or two later, they not only gave it all up and banned the gunmaker's art, but closed down the entire country to keep guns out. <br><br>They had, you see, discovered that any peasant with a gun was a match for a trained samurai -- and that was clearly intolerable. When guns finally did make it into Japan in the late 1900's, the samurai as a class quickly evaporated. (As I recall, one of the hoodlums in Yojimbo tries pulling out his prized Western gun. He's still no match for Toshiro Mifune -- but that's the movies for you. Reality was far different.)<br><br>Point 2: As a bright public-school student with excellent SAT scores, I got sent off to college at Harvard. At first the glamor of rubbing shoulders with the scions of the rich and powerful was exciting -- like, gee, Thomas Watson's daughter was on the next hallway, and somebody from one floor up was dating Max Factor the 27th (or whatever) -- but that quickly wore off and gave way to an devastating case of alienation. By the spring of my freshman year, I'd found my way down to MIT, where I spent most of my freee time for the next several years hanging out with people among whom I felt more at home.<br><br>It took me many more years to figure out that my depression and anger where Harvard was concerned were purely and simply a matter of class. The brainy middle class kids like me were just there for window dressing. The school was really run as a training ground for the children of the elite, and the reason why all the extracurricular activities had seemed so painfully pseudo-professional was that their sole function was to bring their participants up to speed so they could step into equivalent positions upon graduation at places like the New York Times.<br><br>There was a running gag at MIT that the students there were all planning to take over the world when they grew up, while the students at Harvard simply expected to inherit it. There's got to be a logical fallacy in there someplace, because even though the MIT hackers have transformed the world between then and now, the Harvard (and Yale) elite are still running it. I suspect the point is that the real purpose of mad scientists is not to seize the reins of power from the ruling class but to create disruptive technologies (like guns) that will cut through the reins of power entirely.<br><br>Computers and the Internet are the most disruptive technology to come along since the gun -- and the battle to control or suppress them is well under way, with "intellectual property" issues as the tip of the wedge. We shall have to wait and see how all that comes out.<br><br>The larger point I see in all this is that you can't overthrow an engrained system from inside -- real change has to come from without. When you're dealing in single countries, "without" can simply mean from beyond their borders (like guns to Japan.) When you're dealing with the entire global system, "without" has to mean drawing on the great ocean of creative possibility, both in the form of new accessible technologies and in the form of new heretical myths to go with them. <p></p><i></i>
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starroute: some further notes

Postby glubglubglub » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:18 am

(and an apology for shifting the topic so far afield, but following politics seems like a futile path)<br><br>i) many of the technological developments needed to rattle the system's cage a bit -- disruptive tech or otherwise -- are less matters of technological feasibility as simply matters of cost: there's really very little preventing a sufficiently-skilled and motivated group to build a self-sustaining agricultural settlement with the vast bulk of the agricultural work automated -- not automated as in 'driving a tractor around and working the fields by hand' but automated as in 'artificial paddies with an assortment of robot arms and automated watering/fertilizing systems basically running themselves', aside from maintenance (economies of scale suggest a commune, maybe a few hundred people); the problem is that the cost of setting up such a community would be, well, economically irrational unless the group had some kind of ideological motivation for pursuing that course of action.<br><br>The basic technology involved, however, is experimentable-with on more modest budgets -- not inexpensive, but with scrimping on frills you could, say, get a starter hydroponic kit, a robot arm, a video camera, a video capture card, and a pc, and start working with a toy model of it ( and this is on my project list for the next decad, perhaps sooner -- it's all a question of when my circumstances allow the time + space investment ). <br><br>This tech isn't something that would likely develop anytime on its own -- it's simply not a wise economic proposition for any profit-seeking entity -- but with the proper motivation it'd be possible to put it into place. And, for a truly disruptive scenario, gather a like-minded group and build such a settlement on the outskirts of a major or second-tier city, with at least a good-sized chunk of the residents engineers, doctors, lawyers, or other high-income, high-respectability professions; with some kind of tithing system in place it'd be very possible to keep sprouting more such settlements within a couple decades.<br><br>The net result of this scenario would be a smallish-but-still-substantial amount of communities self-sufficient when the need arises; not a truly radical shift in the country's overall sociological composition but perhaps the seeds for a new way of life.<br><br>A bit of a dream, but it's my dream and doesn't seem as unworkable as it sounds at first glance; time + patience will tell.<br><br>ii) the true disruptiveness of the internet, etc., is less in the dissemination of information and ease of communication but rather in the possibility of omnidirectional pansurveillance; as much as the end of prviacy leaves a lot to be desired (ie, privacy) I suspect that once the operating assumption is that at any point in time and at any place on earth your activities, etc., are being captured permanently by any number of agents unknown ( IMPORTANTLY: agents including ordinary citizens ) the effect of that operating assumption will be to keep more people more honest more of the time than currently the case. <br><br>A probable side effect of this scenario playing out is greatly increased accountability all-around, but in particular towards governmental officials, probably propagating upwards from those having the most contact with the public (cops, clerks, etc.) to their bosses, etc...<br><br>Clearly unidirectional pansurveillance is just a ticket to an orwellian police state, but I suspect that omnidirectional pansurveillance may eventually usher in a world not necessarily to my liking -- I prefer privacy, myself -- but still a world with far more accountability directed at people of power than currently. If anything, there's a case to be made that the presence of such a surveillance infrastructure would obviate the choice of political system because de facto accountability to the people would propagate upwards through the government regardless of whether the government had the legal trappings of public accountability or not.<br><br>If anything like the above infrastructure becomes widespread expect the disruptive factor of the past decade's worth of internet stuff to look like small potatoes indeed; so far things look good, what with the continued push for higher-quality video and picture capture for cellphones (and once things are microsized-enough, dick-tracy-esque watches with capabilities similar to today's phones may take off also, imho -- give it another decade) and the software/transmission stuff being thought through already.<br><br>This general idea -- extending the surveillance state to the masses -- is one I've got misgivings about but after much reflection ( and some observation of just how far along the unidirectional model is -- the basic 'mesh' is already in place and just eing tweaked, streamlined, and fed into provesively smarter 'brains' as they are developed ) it seems the right approach; the privacy genie is out of the bottle and the the only way out, I think, is through, not back. It's also an idea/technology that may eventually develop on its own but will develop much more quickly -- and with less risk of perversion along the way by tptb -- with a few nudges here and there, as with point i).<br><br>----<br><br>Both of the above are potentially disruptive technologies that can be envisioned as direct extensions and applications of current technology and simply need nudging and actual work on them -- they're both easily enough envisionable, but neither seems likely to come into being without some intervention. I'm sure other, smarter folks have other potentially-similarly-disruptive ideas in similarly nascent stages of development, and then there's still the entirely-unexpected developments yet to come.<br><br>I also think you overestimate the importance of internal versus external shocks to the system: external shocks are the more shocking but seem to have the end result of shuffling the deck, not changing the game; by blasting off the toplevel elites the next rung down or so jumps up and picks up the slack in short order. Internal changes, though, can infect and gradually drag into irrelevance the elites of the day simply by shrinking the power differential or otherwise obsoleteing the old bases of power while simultaneously keeping the old elites in place -- and thus preventing upstarts from ascending to some new, perhaps higher heights. Or, to hopefully express that better, a good internal shift can leave the elite on top of a slowly sinking platform, and even as their platform sinks they manage to swat down all their would-be rivals, thus assuring no new elites come along and assume positions of higher power than the current (and currently declining) elites. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: starroute: some further notes

Postby sussurus2 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:36 am

Glub:<br><br>"so in the real world: the vast bulk of people trying to 'make a difference' fritter away their time playing this game."<br><br>You nailed that one. <br><br>What you just described isn't just a fine metaphorical evisceration of the distractorama lightshow of national politics, you've also nicely covered the "everyone loses even when it looks like somebody wins" death-by-a thousand-cuts day-to-day reality of the entire nonprofit and foundation sector(s) including individual donations by citizens for causes near & far, and the even more egregious international "development" game. <br><br>Resources, time, attention, all drawn to this or that cause or disaster, whatever distraction can be manufactured that gets people moving deck chairs around again...<br><br>I've often said the only thing keeping us from blood in the streets revolution is the illusion perpetuated by the foundations & nonprofits that people actually get helped. When instead it's just a temporary bandaid or safety valve which is metered to help regulate any unwanted jaggedness in the process of relieving us of our individual & communal vitality. <br><br>It's the ongoing effort to get everyone used to as little as possible, then take a way a little bit more, ease off, take a bit more, ease off. So decade by decade we're hella screwed over. They even figured out how to use the resultant socioeconomic pressure cooker to their own advantage, and now we're back to discussing LA riots, France, and false flag incitement...full circle to politics.<br><br>Thanks for the extended casino metaphor plus implications for real life, really well done. (And I agree with your small window; the person in the other window is me waving hello.)<br><br><br><br>Watchful: thanks for the new-to-me info on WC. Crikey!<br><br>Nite all.<br><br>S.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: starroute: some further notes

Postby Gouda » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:29 pm

nice discussion, all. will like to post more later if i can scrounge some time...<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It took me many more years to figure out that my depression and anger where Harvard was concerned were purely and simply a matter of class. The brainy middle class kids like me were just there for window dressing. The school was really run as a training ground for the children of the elite, and the reason why all the extracurricular activities had seemed so painfully pseudo-professional was that their sole function was to bring their participants up to speed so they could step into equivalent positions upon graduation at places like the New York Times.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Starroute, your experience reminds me very much of an article written by Walter Kirn, "Lost in the Meritocracy - How I traded an Education for a Ticket to the Ruling Class" which I had read in the Atlantic (which reminds me I need to post about Robert Kaplan elsewhere...NeoliberalCons, Pagan war Ethos, Wes Clark, Kosovo to Mongolia) and is linked here online: <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.geocities.com/ubcjon/lostinthemeritocracy.html">www.geocities.com/ubcjon/...cracy.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: starroute: some further notes

Postby sussurus2 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:04 am

Yeah, Star, apologies for running out of brain cells last night before I said kudos for your post as well. <br><br>Your comments on higher-ed playgrounds of the elite resonated strongly w/my experience. I was depressed and manic throughout the six years of my own time at two of the lesser such institutions. I made it out ok mainly by avoiding anything to do with those circles. But your perspective really shed light on the histories of those I've known who wound up at the more serious Ivys. Seems to have gone three ways:<br><br>--Academic and/or emotional Implosion<br>--Acclimation & sufferance while there but no lasting scars<br>--Or full on collusion. (If they like you well enough, they either keep you around as a pet, or may even open doors for you to that other planet.)<br><br>That last is why non-elite parents who think that's the ticket will sacrifice their entire lives to get their kids into that elite mix, even if they're riding in on the tokenism train. The parents fervently hope aybe their kids can stick there.<br><br>God what a misguided hope for ones own progeny. And the wrong lesson-by-example entirely to send your kids off to school with. Usually results in #1, above, implosion. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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