2000 election stand-down?

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2000 election stand-down?

Postby heath7 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:20 pm

I don't mean to sound slow, but...<br><br>I was watching 'Fahrenheit 9/11' the other day, for the first time in a while, and was struck once again by one of the first scenes where 20 US representatives, before congress, objected to certifying the 2000 presidential election results. The reps. needed only <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>one</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> senator to second their motion, yet not one supported them. <br><br>The first time I saw the movie, I was blinded by the irony that Gore wouldn't support these representives. I didn't think about the fact that there were supposedly other upstanding members of the Senate present who could have also stood up to the charade that was dubya's election. <br><br>Where was Wellstone? Where was Feingold? Where were the supposedly liberal types like Kennedy and Kerry? I can't seem to locate a roster of the 2000 senate, but I'm sure that Feingold and Wellstone weren't the only two in the senate that had a reputation for chasing the truth. <br><br>How was that terrible scene enabled to play out? Upon these realizations, what makes the likes of Wellstone and Feingold any different from a Daschle or a Clinton, or for that matter, a Santorum or a Frist? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 2000 election stand-down?

Postby pugzleyca3 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:02 pm

This was a freak show almost beyond comprehension and one of the most frightening displays of cowardice I've ever witnessed. <br><br>Not ONE had the courage to stand up. Not a single one. Disgusting. <br><br>Was a light shone upon the true state of government during that time? I think so. We need to can every single one of them and start over. On BOTH sides. The old saw that we need people with experience translates to me as we need to keep the corrupt and those most susceptible to corruption in office. Term limits! We need them.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pugzleyca3>pugzleyca3</A> at: 2/24/06 2:04 pm<br></i>
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Sic 'Em, Pugz!!!

Postby Floyd Smoots » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:16 pm

I concur with the sentiments expressed here, but I fear it is already too late to make much difference in our present form(?) of government. For the most part, both houses of Congress are already bought and paid for. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START >: --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=floydsmoots>Floyd Smoots</A> at: 2/24/06 2:17 pm<br></i>
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I wish I could sick 'em

Postby pugzleyca3 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:23 pm

I would love to make these people sit through my rants. Put them in a room and force them to listen. Problem is we'd all die of old age before I was finished. <br><br>Kidding aside, I can only hope you're wrong, but I fear you may be right. But we can't stop the fight, we've got to keep on until the bitter end, otherwise, we're cowards the same as those senators were (are).<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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I'm sick of 'em, too!!!

Postby Floyd Smoots » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:48 pm

No argument here, but, sometimes, one must pick one's battles if one holds any hope of victory. I think the polls have become more of a video game type of "mock battlefield", but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.<br><br>........Old Battle-Weary Floyd <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :| --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I'm sick of 'em, too!!!

Postby NewKid » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:28 pm

The certification in Congress wasn't the only thing. There's a lot of suspicion that Gore's lawyers rolled over in the recount litigation as well. <br><br>My sense has always been there was a big push to get Bush in by any means necessary in 2000. And not just by Republicans. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 2000 election stand-down?

Postby heath7 » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:54 am

That session of Congress may be as defining a moment in our nation's history as any session of Congress, ever. <br><br>I'm totally wierded out by it. Moore should have included the entire session as part of the movie just to drive the point home. All 100 of those senators had to sit through impassioned objections from 20 of their peers, and not one had the spine to buck to. Its sadder than dubya sitting for nearly 10 minutes pretending to read while the nation was under attack. <br><br>If just Feingold and Wellstone (and throw in Carol Moseley-Braun, its hard to believe she didn't agree with the objections) would have rised, I believe the last 5 years of history, not to mention the future, would have been quite different. But that's probably just my hopeless idealistic self speaking.<br><br>I think ol' Russ has a lot of splainin to do, as well as the other 99, but Wellstone's dead, and Feingold is the only one I've remained to have any level of faith in.<br><br>What can he possibly accomplish in the future that would have as dramatic an impact as enabling Congress and our nation to know the truly undemocratic processes of our government. <br><br>In the theme of Colbert: Russ Feingold, you are dead to me. As are the other 99 Senators and 415 Representatives.<br><br>Why did you do it? Did the party leadership demand your unity? I'll bet they convinced you that everything would work out all right.<br><br>Or were you just happy to see dubya became dictator? <p></p><i></i>
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Some Senators Considered Objecting

Postby ewastud » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:07 am

Barbara Boxer said when she raised an objection to the 2004 election that she had wanted to challenge the 2000 electoral college vote, too, but was disuaded by Al Gore himself. Perhaps there were other senators who were leaning the same way but were persuaded likewise "in the interest of national unity," as their favorite turn of phrase goes. <br><br>Sometimes disunity might be a better solution to our political conflicts than a false unity. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 2000 election stand-down?

Postby pugzleyca3 » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:09 am

Do you know how to track down a complete tape or audio of this? I would love to at least hear all of it, but don't know where to find the info. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Some Senators Considered Objecting

Postby OnoI812 » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:43 am

disuaded by Gore...<br><br>This is the most likely scenario...<br>but you can be damn sure there was a lot more going on behind the scenes.<br><br>Remember Al Gore's plane was vectored, and not much was reported about it at the time.<br><br>Seeing this crew in action over the last 5 years,<br>Kidnapping or death threats against Gore or his family right after the election may not be so far fetched.<br><br>Throw in the difficulty of going against a 78% repub appointed SCOTOS , where payoffs were also likely involved, and I can see Gore putting out the stand down order for the safety of others. Wellstone still got offed despite clamming up for the standdown, You can be sure Bushco was using the NSA from day 1.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Some Senators Considered Objecting

Postby NewKid » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:09 pm

This from the Vanity Fair article on Bush v. Gore in the Supreme Court:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The clerks for the liberal justices watched the events unfold with dismay. To them, the only hopeful sign was Kennedy’s skepticism about Bush’s chances. “We changed our minds every five minutes about whether the fix was in,” one clerk remembers.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Convinced the majority would reverse the Florida court, they began drafting a dissent even before the case was argued in court. It was long—about 30 pages—and elaborate, written principally by Justice Stevens, then 80, the most senior of the would-be dissenters and, largely by default, the Court’s most liberal member, even though a Republican, President Gerald R. Ford, had appointed him. With the assistance of Justices Stephen Breyer, David Souter, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stevens laid out why the Court should never have accepted the case.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>At a dinner on November 29, attended by clerks from several chambers, an O’Connor clerk said that O’Connor was determined to overturn the Florida decision and was merely looking for the grounds. O’Connor was known to decide cases on gut feelings and facts rather than grand theories, then stick doggedly with whatever she decided. In this instance, one clerk recalls, “she thought the Florida court was trying to steal the election and that they had to stop it.” Blithely ignorant of what view she actually held, the Gore campaign acted as if she were up for grabs. In fact, the case would come down to Kennedy.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It was unusual, then, for a conservative clerk to visit the chambers of a justice on the other side. But that is what Kevin Martin, a clerk for Scalia, did on November 30 when he stopped by Stevens’s chambers. Martin had gone to Columbia Law School with a Stevens clerk named Anne Voigts; he thought that connection could help him to bridge the political divide and to explain that the conservative justices had legitimate constitutional concerns about the recount. But to two of Voigts’s co-clerks, Eduardo Penalver and Andrew Siegel, Martin was on a reconnaissance mission, trying to learn which grounds for reversing the Florida court Stevens would consider the most palatable. They felt they were being manipulated, and things quickly turned nasty. “Fuck off!” Martin finally told them before storming out of the room. (O’Connor clerks paid similar exploratory visits to various chambers, but those ended more amicably.)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Sure enough, the Bush campaign asked the Court to stay the decision and halt the recount. In a highly unusual move, Scalia urged his colleagues to grant the stay immediately, even before receiving Gore’s response. Gore had been narrowing Bush’s lead, and his campaign expected that by Monday he would pull ahead. But Scalia was convinced that all the manual recounts were illegitimate. He told his colleagues such recounts would cast “a needless and unjustified cloud” over Bush’s legitimacy. It was essential, he said, to shut down the process immediately. The clerks were amazed at how baldly Scalia was pushing what they considered his own partisan agenda.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>[S]o eager was the majority to stop the recount, one clerk recalls, that Stevens had to plead for more time to complete his dissent. What he wrote—that “counting every legally cast vote cannot constitute irreparable harm”—so provoked Scalia that, as eager as he was to halt the recount, he delayed things by dashing off an angry rejoinder, largely reiterating what he’d told the justices the previous night. “Count first, and rule upon legality afterwards, is not a recipe for producing election results that have the public acceptance democratic stability requires,” he argued, forecasting that a majority of the Court would ultimately rule in Bush’s favor on the merits.<br><br>Even some of the justices voting with Scalia squirmed at how publicly he’d acknowledged the divisions within the Court. To the liberal clerks, what he had written was at least refreshing in its candor. “The Court had worked hard to claim a moral high ground, but at that moment he pissed it away,” one recalls. “And there was a certain amount of glee. He’d made our case for us to the public about how crassly partisan the whole thing was.” Scalia’s opinion held up release of the order for an hour. Finally, shortly before three o’clock, the Court granted the stay. No more votes would be counted. Oral arguments were set for the following Monday, December 11.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But to the liberal clerks it was all over. They placed their dwindling hopes not on anything that would happen in the Court on Monday, but on the press. The brother of a Ginsburg clerk, who covered legal affairs for The Wall Street Journal, had learned that the paper would soon report how, at a party on Election Night, O’Connor was overheard expressing her dismay over Gore’s apparent victory. Once that information became public, the liberal clerks felt, O’Connor would have to step aside. When, on the night before the Court convened, she sent out a sealed memo to each of her colleagues, those clerks hoped this had actually come to pass. In fact, she was merely stating that she, too, felt the Florida Supreme Court had improperly usurped the state legislature’s power. Gore’s lawyers, who also knew about O’Connor’s election-night outburst, toyed briefly with asking her to step aside. But they demurred, hoping instead that she would now lean toward them to prove her fairness. Things were that bleak.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As the drafts began circulating, tempers began to fray. In an unusual sealed memo—an unsuccessful attempt to avoid the clerks’ prying eyes—Scalia complained about the tone of some of the dissents. He was, he confessed, the last person to criticize hard-hitting language, but never had he, as the dissenters were now doing, urged the majority to change its decision based on its impact on the Supreme Court’s credibility. He charged that his opponents in the case were inflicting the very wounds to the Court that they had supposedly decried. As Jeffrey Toobin first reported, he objected in particular to what he called the “Al Sharpton footnote” in Ginsburg’s dissent: her comment on Florida’s disenfranchised black voters. Whether out of timidity, collegiality, or affection—Scalia was her closest friend on the Court—Ginsburg promptly took it out. “It was the most classic example of what kind of bully Scalia is,” says one clerk, who called Scalia’s complaint “an attempt to stifle legitimate discourse worthy of Joe McCarthy.” As for Ginsburg, this clerk says her response “showed a lack of courage.”<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Rehnquist, along with Scalia and Thomas, joined in the decision, but Scalia, for one, was unimpressed. Whether or not one agrees with him, Scalia is a rigorous thinker; while the claim that the Florida Supreme Court overstepped its bounds had some superficial heft to it, the opinion on equal-protection was mediocre and flaccid. “Like we used to say in Brooklyn,” he is said to have told a colleague, “it’s a piece of shit.” (Scalia denies disparaging the majority opinion; the other justices would not comment for this article.)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>snip<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ultimately, only the five justices in the majority know how and why they decided the case as they did and whether they did it in good or bad faith. Perhaps even they don’t know the answer. An insider was asked if the five would pass a lie-detector test on the subject. “I honestly don’t know,” this insider replies. “People are amazing self-kidders.”<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.makethemaccountable.com/articles/The_Path_To_Florida.htm" target="top">www.makethemaccountable.com/articles/The_Path_To_Florida.htm</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Oops, I Did It Again....

Postby Floyd Smoots » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:36 pm

Ono, some of us suspect that Al Gore played his "role" to perfection. BE the "Loyal Opposition", well paid Cousin Al. Huff, Puff, and fighting chicken Fluff, but when we give you your "cue", concede, Concede, CONCEDE. Maybe it didn't happen that way, but their are a lot of us out here who firmly believe that IT DID!<br><br>There have been no real party distinctions "at the top of the pyramid" since longer than I can remember, and I have been watching politics and voting from 1969 thru 2005. I'm over that fake guano now. I have no plans, as a tax-paying, registered voter, to EVER VOTE again, usless it's with my "feet" or my great Big Fragging GUN!!!!!!!!'<br><br>Fed Up Floyd <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START >: --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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For the record -

Postby Seventhsonjr » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:57 am

I do believe that such language (the "fragging gun" comment) invites a dangerous scrutiny and the appearance of the approval of violence instead of democrativ means to bring about the solution to a corrupt administration. I oppose such language and have asked that it be removed from this thread.<br><br>On top of that, I think the implication that Gore intentionally sabotaged himself is total horsecrap. I believe that Kerry, the Skull brother of the Bush family, might well have done that and I do believe that Clinton, the favorite Bush son, sabotaged Al --- but I think that this crapping on Gore is an early attempt to get the memes going for 2008 and I just want the record to reflect it is, imho, bullshyte.<br><br>Gore could not have foreseen what his graciousness in defeat meant for the future. I think he honestly believed that, at that point, it would hurt the country more to support the effort. I also believe that if he knew what would happen, he would have stood up AND he would have gotten others to do so as well.<br><br>In this way I think Gore's biggest faliure was simply his naivete. His fucking NICENESS and faith in humanity and human nature. To be that unaware of the dangers of the Bushes was either wishful thinking or denial. I suspect a bit of both. But NEVER do I think he intentionally gave away the white house. His efforts were honorable and his withdrawal, after the Supremes stole our country, was done with good intentions. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seventhsonjr>Seventhsonjr</A> at: 2/25/06 10:03 pm<br></i>
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Re: For the record -

Postby NewKid » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:20 am

Remember too, that Gore himself need not have been in on anything. There were a lot of people operating under the banner of Gore/Lieberman 2000, and I think not all of them had his best interests at heart. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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A hollywierd Quote for You Last Two Posters....

Postby Floyd Smoots » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:37 am

....from one of my favorite, but not seen lately, Hollywood personas, Julius Carey, in the motion picture, "The Last Dragon", in his role as Sho' Nuff, da Shogun of Harlem, and I quote "Niggah, PLEASE!!''. Do you morons still believe that, at the top of the "pyramid" there is any real difference between the "two ruling parties" here in Amerika??? You have the American-born, God-given right to "hold these truths to be self evident", but, if you "cling" to that, you are sadly misled, and badly misinformed. To quote one of my favorite bumper stickers, "Those of You Who THINK You Know It All are making life Difficult for Those of Us Who Do!!!<br> <p></p><i></i>
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