""Watergate-level event" is about to occur in

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no no no

Postby AnnaLivia » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:25 am

"Ancient wisdom has it that ALL government is evil and corrupt and the individual's best bet is : place a distance between yourself and governement: minimize interaction, don't be flattered when they want your support, AND rely on their power struggles to remove the surplus of tyrrany." <br><br>sad to read this. very bad advice. <br><br>buy this, and they'll shrink government down to the size they can drown it in the bathtub. then gov will be big enough to aid corporations and the wealth-powerful, and small enough to be incapable of helping citizens.<br><br>that's what THEY want.<br><br>government has legitimate purposes! there's no such thing as having no system, and no such thing as the perfect system.<br><br>practice daily democracy! be willing to DO THE WORK. <p></p><i></i>
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just heard

Postby AnnaLivia » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:24 am

MSNBC says the fitz paperwork will be released at noon, eastern time.<br><br>CNN says fitz press conference at 2pm eastern.<br><br>nothing new on fitz's website yet. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: no no no

Postby israelirealities » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:30 am

the government is working for the corporations. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: no no no

Postby AnnaLivia » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:54 am

Yes, of course, IR. But you don’t fix that by distancing yourself from the government, you fix that by diving into government. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT, if we only will be. Their power struggles amongst themselves BRING tyranny, not destroy it. <p></p><i></i>
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media instructions

Postby AnnaLivia » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:12 am

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/index.html">www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/index.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>fitz website just added the official notice of announcements coming <p></p><i></i>
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Re: no no no

Postby chiggerbit » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:16 am

I suspect that the announcement has been deliberately dragged out from Tuesday to Wednesday, to Thrusday, to Friday in order to keep Libby and his crew over the coals. Once all is announced, it will give some closure of sorts to the criminals. But as there has been no closure, they have had time to consider their possible fate, re-consider spilling. Heehee, and now it sounds like Fitz isn't done investigating yet--so sad, no closure. I'm sure Rove's deal is conditional, and if any new incriminating evidence is turned up that shows that Rove knew, even if he was not an actor, the deal will be off. Squirm, piggy, squirm! <p></p><i></i>
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Re: no no no

Postby israelirealities » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:25 am

Well, its a bit of a longer debate, Sustainable living, cooperatives on a loose functional basis (not to deteriorate into little communes god forbid). That's indeed a bit "amish" at the moment. Your situation out there in civilization is very different. In those parts of the world, it might be worthwhile actually trying to do something with the system. here, its not the right time, if you don't want to end up an accomplice to crimes. major crimes that is. Been there...got out, happy to be breathing and smelling flowers. <br>So from my place, Ecclesiastics is a good reading material...<br>it all depends where you are and when. Just mind you, AnnaLyvia, our philosophies should encompass as many situational choices as possible. SO, we might say that my particular political predicament here widened my scope...<br>but then I'd be much happier to have an activist/positive looking/empowered outlook of one who grew up and died in the nicer places on earth right now. So..you are also very right in your advice.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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CIA

Postby eric144 » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:38 am

I just want to state the obvious, namely that the CIA is (in large measure) an extra legal private army of the the fascist cabal that runs the United States. People the world over should celebrate the outing of one of these people even by the political scum in Washington.<br><br>A lecturer at Glasgow University was exposed as CIA, he should have been given twenty five years in jail then deported to North Korea.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: CIA

Postby robertdreed » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:55 pm

I disagree. The CIA I've studied performs a lot more functions than acting as a "legal private army." It's mostly an agency that gathers information and analyzes it, country by country, region by region, subtopic by subtopic. <br><br>Not to minimize the parapolitical skullduggery and paramilitary operations directed by the DCI and/or the leadership of some of the departments and station chiefs, and performed by CIA field agents or assets on a permanent or ad hoc basis, but the CIA c.2005 isn't 100 per cent George Bush Sr.'s CIA, either in terms of values shared in common, fondness for covert ops and political gaming behind the scenes, or a unified commitment to the agenda of noblesse oblige hegemony that's a signature of the Bush dynasty philosophy of American politics and statecraft. <br><br>A college professor overseas exposed as a CIA agent- I'm less concerned about his covered affiliation with the Agency than I am with what he might have been espousing as a teacher, and who he counted as friends and allies in Scotland. CIA membership doesn't in and of itself brand someone with the Devil's Mark. Although I'm much more wary of the leadership, and some of the station chiefs in places where the historic track record of the CIA ranges from dodgy to disgraceful...<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: CIA

Postby eric144 » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:09 pm

"CIA membership doesn't in and of itself brand someone with the Devil's Mark"<br><br>It does to me.<br><br>"It's mostly an agency that gathers information and analyzes it, country by country, region by region, subtopic by subtopic"<br><br>Why can't the USA mind its own damned business and stop spying on, murdering and torturing people round the world ? That's what it really adds up to and has since its inception. I know Americans love analysing things but they don't spend billions of dollars (on echelon for example) just to play with machines.<br><br>It isn't just politics, the whole show is to support and maintain American commercial interests worldwide at the expense of other countries. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: CIA

Postby robertdreed » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:22 pm

Eric, I sympathize with your antipathy toward the CIA. I used to condemn everyone associated with the Agency and everything it involved itself with, as well.<br><br>But over time, I got a more detailed and nuanced view of the breadth of activities carried on by the CIA, and I found that many of them weren't malign in and of themselves. As for the purposes to which the agency has been employed- it's important to note that the CIA was a Cold War baby. There was a bipolar political and geopolitical struggle going on with another large nation whose size and power rivalled the USA, and which had been defined as hostile. That status of rivalry and competition served to justify a lot of bullshit. But even then, there were plenty of people in the analysis branch who were simply trying to assess information in order to do things like briefing the president, to help him make decisions. I think that's a legitimate function for government agencies, even these days. I think a lot of the blame/responsibility for problems associated with CIA activities ought to be laid at the feet of whichever presidential administration ordered them, including the president and multi-agency enclaves like the NSC, who set the policy agenda and give most of the orders. <br><br>I think much of the CIA's original purpose hasn't existed for a while, and the agency should be stripped down to essential functions. But even in the post-Cold War world, the agency has always been directed by leaders and advisors whose political agendas prefer a strong, activist CIA for parapolitical missions and covert operations. Now, more than ever.<br><br> I think that's bullshit. But that's no reason to demonize every last person employed by the CIA. Some of them think it's bullshit, too. And as the CIA is a uniquely powerful institution, I feel better about having some kindred souls on the inside than I would about being shut out completely. Here's an example of that: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/october2005/191005McGovern.htm">www.prisonplanet.com/arti...Govern.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I know that many American dissidents extend there anti-CIA antipathy to the point of considering everyone and anyone with a history of employment there as a probable infiltrator. But I've heard and read Ray McGovern many times over the past few years, and I haven't found him acting like a Trojan Horse to infiltrate the American dissident movement. His critiques are very articulate, and he hasn't sought power. He doesn't grandstand, unlike some of the more well-known figures in the dissident and 9-11 openness movements. And when he's offered his CIA experience as perspective in service of his political insights, I haven't noticed him running down anything particularly phony. I mean, the article I just linked is difficult for me to formulate as a "limited hang-out" or "disinformation": <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Former CIA Analyst: Government May Be Manufacturing Fake Terrorism<br>A Government openly promoting torture, A President acting like a King cannot be trusted, must be impeached<br><br><br><br>Prisonplanet.com | October 19 2005<br><br>Ray McGovern, former CIA Analyst during the Regan and Bush 41 regimes, joined Alex Jones on his daily radio show Monday 17th October as part of a round table discussion of issues surrounding the Iraq war and the "war on terror".<br><br>McGovern launched straight into the War in Iraq and suggested that over the last few months there has been a "sea change" in public opinion, and now over two thirds of Americans, according to major opinion polls, are against the war and can now see through the Neo-con Propaganda that so clouded their judgment in the lead up to the war.<br><br>McGovern went on to comment that there has built up an ignorant attitude amongst more well to do Americans that the troops dying everyday are expendable. There has been a shut down in the minds of people who cannot place themselves in the shoes of the families who's sons and fathers and brothers are being needlessly slaughtered for a corrupt elite agenda.<br><br>Mr McGovern stated that the war <br><br>"has nothing to do with democracy or freedom or defending "our way of life", it is to do with enriching the pockets of those who support this administration."<br><br>Alex then put it to Mr McGovern that Congressman Ron Paul had recently been on the show and said that The Bush Administration was openly trying to set up a martial law police state in America. McGovern responded in the affirmative:<br><br>"Well it does seem that those who have his (Bush's) ear are hell bent on giving away or providing wider responsibilities to our military. Witness what they are talking about now with giving the military primary responsibility for catastrophes, for hurricanes and so forth. Our military has been built up as an instrument of power but has never existed with this kind of potency before, and so we all need to look at this because there are laws against using the military in law enforcement capacities and we need to get to our Congressmen and Senators and say "look enough of this stuff."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>I can't find the payoff for the Bush cabal in anything that McGovern said, there. Bringing up the idea that the Bush administration is capable of manipulating agencies like his old employer, the CIA, in resorting to Lodge P2-type provocateur terrorism is about as far from a cover-up as I can imagine. In fact, while McGovern doesn't say it explicitly, his comments imply the possibility that 9-11 may have been a MIHOP operation. Whoa. If he doesn't go that far, it's because prudent professionals leave surmises like that to the journalist community, and to the listening audience. <br><br>If McGovern had gone off on George Bush and his shadowy allies and outright accused them of complicity and involvement in the 9-11 attacks...well, THEN I'd be suspicious. Because unless they're revealing brand-new, front-page, irrefutable smoking gun evidence on that score in the course of making that accusation, any former CIA agent making such a dramatic statement is bound to split the antiwar movement and the dissident community. But McGovern chooses his words very carefully advisedly and pointedly, not at all like a weasel or someone laying down a smokescreen. And that leads me to consider that there is such a thing as an authentic whistleblower community drawn from present and former CIA employees and other intelligence agency/law enforcement professionals. Therefore, logically speaking, it follows that joining the CIA isn't the equivalent of joining the Black Lodge. <br><br>"...you don’t fix that by distancing yourself from the government, you fix that by diving into government..."<br><br>Sometimes that is a good idea. Under some circumstances, it may even by an imperative. But other times, not. Involving oneself with local government makes the most sense, I think. The Federal government is extremely problematic, in the USA at any rate...the country is too big for a single central government to deal with responsively and effectively, frankly. To say nothing of the hazards of centralized Federal power...central governments of large countries tend to emphasize military and police power- "uniform functions", as it were. Part of the reason is simply structural. <br><br> "WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT, if we only will be."<br><br>I prefer "we are the community." There's so much that can be done on that basis without resorting to government power. And- let's face it- in a lot of locations we ain't the government, and reasserting democratic advise and consent is an onerous process. In the meantime, we can be the community, which is something that a government must negotiate with, even if they're an old boy's club. All social and cultural interaction isn't suffused with politics, although it always partakes of it. More importantly, all politics isn't about the government. <br><br> "Their power struggles amongst themselves BRING tyranny, not destroy it."<br><br>Hmm...actually, I think there are political arenas where I'd just as soon not be around. "The fuckery of the shitstem", Peter Tosh would call it. Touch not the unclean thing, and all that. I think Peter Tosh tried to steer clear of touching it. But he still stayed in the vicinity too long, and one day he got in the line of fire...he should have headed for the hills. Hold those hills. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/28/05 1:08 pm<br></i>
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Re: community

Postby israelirealities » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:53 pm

THanks RobertReed, that's precisely the word I was looking for, in "cooperatives". I dont use community, because it is an american "buzz word" in our part of the world, charged with politics of fundraising. <br>But this is what I mean. A nice little community is something to start with, before moving into bureaucracies of sorts. <br>Also, i think that Europeans, who have had experience with really bad political periods, can understand what it means when you say that really, there's nothing to do, but wait it out. Like NAzism, Facsims and soviet totalitarianism, and tyrannies in general make it impossible to take an active role. One can just "stay out of harm's way" untill the wave dies of its own accord (mainly, inner conflicts among the ruling junta). I think Americans, and even Brittish people, sometimes sound very arrogant in thinking that they would deal with it better or they tend to assign the blame to all the citizens as if they can do something at all against their governments.<br>I remember a personal encounter of this sort, when a smart ass Canadian of Brittish origin was pulling a guilt trip on me as if all the crimes of SHaron are my fault...i would be very happy to see her here for a year or two, dealing with Sharon.<br>And then she said "you know, the problem with fascism is that nobody is accountable, they are never accountable (mimicking my response)". These are the same people who blame women for being raped. Because under the same logic, it is actually all the people of Canada and Brittain and the USA who are in fact accountable to our government's crime; because their governments -<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>which are democratic</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> - actually assist the <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> fascist government here</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> and I don't. I don't sell bombs to the IDF, I just live here, trying to, at least. <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=israelirealities@rigorousintuition>israelirealities</A> at: 10/28/05 11:58 am<br></i>
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Re: community

Postby chiggerbit » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:10 pm

No closure for some:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>COULTER: I think so. I mean, I don’t think indictments are particularly big deal politically. They’re a big deal for whoever gets indicted, but I don’t think it really matters to the White House. I’ve just been thinking, this is going to be lancing the boil. Let’s just get it done one way or the other this Friday. Either they get indicted and they leave, or they’re not indicted and it’s over. To stay under investigation — that is not the best possible outcome.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: community

Postby eric144 » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:35 pm

"I remember a personal encounter of this sort, when a smart ass Canadian of Brittish origin was pulling a guilt trip on me as if all the crimes of SHaron are my fault."<br><br>Yes, the same is true for the citizerns of other countries that don't support their governments like most people here I suppose.<br><br>Israel is unique because most Jews (not all) support the right of the state of Israel to exist wheras most Moslems do not. It's only massive American intereference in the region that keeps Israel intact. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: community

Postby israelirealities » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:56 pm

Eric, Still, even if "most" jEws support, there is still some that don't. So, its better to check out first, cause the worst thing (for me at least) is to be kicked around HERE AND be held accountable outside of Israel as well. that's like being in hell, which actually pushes many people to change their original position (and join the majority here), and I can't blame them. nobody is supposed to be expected to commit a suicide in order to satisfy the righteousness of people who would not do the same in their own country. <br>As for how many Jews are zionists, how many are indifferent and how many anti Zionists and how many are "post zionists' (that's for people who more a less support a two state solution in the 1948 up to 1967 (varies with different people) and favor the right of return with restrictions) - I don't know, it would be interesting to see real and unadulterated data (ha ha, as if such exists). I don't think even half the Jews are in Israel, which means half don't actually support it (except as an investment, and BTW I had the feeling that ISrael actually uses threats and intimidation against Jews abroad as well, to conform with the party line, so one wonders what they'd say behind closed doors and under conditions of anonymity). From this half who are here, about half are refugees who really nobody asked if they want to come here, you know they needed food.:-), you'd be surprised how food can change your political views. And as you know, Israel forced the Jewish communities of IRaq and Morocco, back in the fifties to come here, under a dirty deal with the local rulers (people for property), the Russian immigration from the USSR, really, I mean anyone would leave the USSR to the free world and this entire Sharansky-refuseniks farce, I dont believe it, I think that was CIA and not devout "zionists", perhaps they grew into the role as time moved on. ANd that leaves the original ZIonists, which are not a huge number alltogether. :-)). <br>Having said that - this is very different than the fact that people who are already HERE, will not support their own annihilation for whatever good reason...and that's natural. SO, you have a large scale tragedy. nothing new in our history and the region here. Lots of mistakes, lots of European scams and schemes and the natural tendency of my people to self destruct by getting caught in wheeling and dealing and "outwitting" and avoiding disasters, real or imagined, to the point that nobody really remembers what it was all meant to achieve. <br>Bottom line, there is a community here, not huge, of anti zionist Jews, there is a fairly loud group of radical leftists, there are communists here as well etc. But even they, i mean, if you experienced the level of pressure here, some people "collaborate", they have to survive, right ? <br><br> <br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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