Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:39 pm

More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's "lies" about what happened have made them suspicious, and that they are certain they will never get the full story. ... In separate interviews in their home town of San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death. The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor. <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/22/AR2005052200865.html">Washington Post</a> Immediately, evidence surrounding the killing began to disappear. One day after his death someone burned his body armor. Two days later someone burned his uniform. At some point his journal, which he religiously wrote in, went missing. With that journal disappeared Tillman's voice. ... By all accounts, Tillman was popular and loved by the troops with whom he served - supporting the theory that his death was in fact a tragic accident. One of the Army investigations, however, suggested leveling charges of criminal intent against the killer or killers, prompting Tillman's mother to ask, "I want to know what kind of criminal intent there was." But all she has been able to glean from over 2,000 pages of official reports are contradictions, continuously changing stories, and countless blacked out lines. <a href="http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/Niman.JanFeb06.html">thehumanist</a> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rigorousintuition>Rigorous Intuition</A> at: 3/7/06 11:48 am

by **professorpan** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:51 pm

It's worth noting that several sources have said that Tillman was reading Chomsky, and had even made an appointment to speak to him before he was killed. He had apparently turned against the war and was trying to make sense of the real motives for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. I think it's quite possible that the Army saw him as a serious liability. What if a popular, gung-ho, well-respected soldier turned 180 degrees and started exposing the "war on terror" for what it really was? They wouldn't like that -- nosiree.

by **heath7** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:30 pm

Also worth noting, from <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL">The San Francisco Chronicle</a>: According to testimony, Tillman, who along with others on the hill waved his arms and yelled “cease fire,” set off a smoke grenade to identify his group as fellow soldiers. There was a momentary lull in the firing, and he and the soldier next to him, thinking themselves safe, relaxed, stood up and started talking. But the shooting resumed. Tillman was hit in the wrist with shrapnel and in his body armor with numerous bullets. The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, dammit.” He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.  Also, further in the article: Another disputed detail was whether the soldiers were firing while speeding down the canyon or whether they stopped, got out and continued shooting. In testimony in the third investigation, the soldiers said they did not stop. However, the medical examiner’s report said Tillman was killed by three bullets closely spaced in his forehead — a pattern that would have been unlikely if the shooter were moving fast. Spc. Russell Baer, a soldier pinned down by gunfire on the hillside near Tillman, said in an interview with The Chronicle that at least two soldiers had gotten out of the humvee to fire uphill. One other soldier confirmed this account to a Tillman family member.  Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=heath7>heath7</A> at: 3/7/06 2:08 pm

by **JerkyLeBoeuf** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:28 pm

Professor Pan, if what you're implying is true, then that would make the propaganda campaign they waged after Tillman's death doubly awful... truly sadistic and perverse. It would be like murdering his soul along with his body.

by **Qutb** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:40 pm

Yes, I remember reading that he was going to meet Chomsky. If that is true, I think we've established a motive... I can understand burning his journal, if he had been writing down his doubts about the war. But his uniform? Almost sounds like some kind of perverse ritual. After Tillman, that female soldier who was captured, and the Saddam statue, it's amazing that the media can still report the Pentagon's stories about Zarqawi "narrowly escaping" US soldiers with a straight face.

by **sunny** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:32 pm

Oh yeah, Tillman definitely would have been the chickenhawks worst nightmare had he come home. <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1007-22.htm">www.commondreams.org/views05/1007-22.htm</a> excerpt: The very private Tillmans have revealed a picture of Pat profoundly at odds with the GI Joe image created by Pentagon spinmeisters and their media stenographers. As the Chronicle put it, family and friends are now unveiling "a side of Pat Tillman not widely known--a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books...to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author." Tillman had very unembedded feelings about the Iraq War. His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, "I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town.... We were talking. And Pat said, 'You know, this war is so f***ing illegal.' And we all said, 'Yeah.' That's who he was. He totally was against Bush." With these revelations, Pat Tillman the PR icon joins WMD and Al Qaeda connections on the heap of lies used to sell the Iraq War. Tillman's transition from one-dimensional caricature to critically thinking human being is a long time coming. The fact is that in death he was far more useful to the armchair warriors than he had ever been in life. When the Pro Bowler joined the Army Rangers, the Pentagon brass needed a loofah to wipe their drool: He was white, handsome and played in the NFL. For a chicken-hawk Administration led by a President who loves the affectations of machismo but runs from protesting military moms, this testosterone cocktail was impossible to resist. The problem was that Tillman wouldn't play their game. To the Pentagon's chagrin, he turned down numerous offers to be its recruitment poster child.

by **Iroquois** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:08 pm

Burning the uniform was a good tactic to thwart investigations long after the fact. Without Tillman's body, his uniform, bodyarmor, and other gear was likely the best physical evidence for recreating what happened that day. The smoke would have left residue for instance. And, there would also be an indication of whether or not he fired his weapon. I found the following in this blog: <a href="http://melodee128.blogspot.com/2004/05/i-could-have-been-surgeon.html">melodee128.blogspot.com/2...rgeon.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>During church, I visited with the nursery volunteer, a beautiful woman named Sarah. She is a military wife and mother of two preschool boys. Her husband just returned from two months in Afghanistan. "Did your husband know Pat Tillman?" I asked. Turns out that Pat Tillman was in her husband's platoon and that, in fact, her husband had to examine Pat's body. He told her how difficult it was to transition from holding the brains of a dead comrade to changing the diapers of his babies. We talked about the reports that Tillman's death resulted from "friendly fire." Her husband does not believe that is true. Tillman had a head wound, a bullet shot in the forehead. Sarah's husband said that the U.S. troops have 50 caliber bullets, which do incredible damage. For instance if you were shot in the leg with a 50 caliber bullet, your leg would be gone. If Tillman had been hit with a 50 caliber bullet in the head, his head would have been shot off. Isn't this pleasant? Well, at any rate, the "enemy" in Afghanistan doesn't have the high-caliber bullets, so Sarah's husband believes it was an enemy bullet that killed Tillman. This is contrary to the news reports, but I tend to believe an actual Ranger than the news media or even the Pentagon.<hr></blockquote> .50 caliber rounds are used by the US military in sniper rifles and heavy, as in vehicle mounted or crew served, machine guns. The reference above was certainly about the former for a variety of reasons. So, what I read from this is that the woman is saying her husband believes that Tillman was killed by someone other than one of the members of the unit who were involved in the incident, a sniper who may have been some distance (perhaps several hundred meters) away. *Edited the URL to link to the actual blog instead of google's cache of it. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=iroquois@rigorousintuition>Iroquois</A> at: 3/7/06 7:49 pm

by **resonantmonkey** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:01 pm

It is highly unlikely that everyone in Tillman's unit were sporting 50. cal weapons. Units are usually equipped with a variety of weapons of differing calibers. Also, if the possibility of murder is being bandied about, why not pick up an old Taliban weapon and use it to murder Pat? Remember one of the last scenes in "Platoon"? Charlie Sheen uses an enemy AK-47 to kill Tom Berenger, and of course, it would only look like a Viet Cong troop shot him. This could very easily explain the smaller caliber weapon wounds.

by **StarmanSkye** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:43 pm

Iroquis said: "50 caliber rounds are used by the US military in sniper rifles and heavy, as in vehicle mounted or crew served, machine guns. The reference above was certainly about the former for a variety of reasons. So, what I read from this is that the woman is saying her husband believes that Tillman was killed by someone other than one of the members of the unit who were involved in the incident, a sniper who may have been some distance (perhaps several hundred meters) away." The theory that since Tillman wasn't killed by a .50 sniper round he MUST have been killed by a foreign soldier, is plain distraction disinfo bunkum for the gullible sheeple masses -- since anyone with a modicum of familiarity with how US army and marine platoons are armed would see thru this 'reasoning' in .12 seconds. I dunno why the platoon-member would be promoting this evidently-false 'proof' upholding the original (now disproved) Pentagon myth-fable that Tillman was a hero killed by fierce enemy forces in an ambush (cowardly deceit!) while providing covering fire for the rescue of an injured platoon-member -- unless he's just being the good, loyal team-player, unaware that his claim further discredits a military that thinks nothing of shamelessly lying to the US public whenever the truth is embarrassing or ackward (or 'classified'). The military's credibility is now lower than skunk fart. The venerable M16 and its many variants in classic 5.56X45 mm is the standard-issue personal assault weapon for the US Army and Rangers. Since successive information has revealed more and more about the circumstances of Tillman's death as a friendly-fire incident, in which he was (allegedly) hit in the forehead with three rounds, had shrapnel wounds in his wrist and several rounds in his chest body-armour, it's extremely likely he was killed by this caliber and NOT a special-purpose long-range .50 cal. sniper weapon. Note too: the standard M16-A2 has been modified from older, original versions to provide a maximum rate of fire in auto mode of 3-round bursts -- consistent with Tillman's head wound. I completely concur with resonantmonkey: "It is highly unlikely that everyone in Tillman's unit were sporting 50. cal weapons. Units are usually equipped with a variety of weapons of differing calibers." Consider the Platoon's reported mission doing recon and scouting with afghani irregulars in steep mountain-foothill terrain with broken cover and ravines along a road with light rubber-tired vehicles -- it's not likely that a heavy .50 sniper weapon would be brought-along. Some quick research found that each Rifle Company of 152 men consists of a Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3 Rifle Platoons and a Weapons Platoon -- and only the Weapons Platoon has a sniper section of 3 2-man sniper teams -- 2 teams employing the M24 (7.62 mm) and one team with the .50 cal. Barret Sniper system. *SO: That's only ONE .50 cal. sniper weapon per a 152-man Company. As to whether Tillman was deliberately killed -- the circumstance of such undisciplined fire-control and subsequent cover-up sure suggests it is possible. Perhaps someone in his platoon either disliked or distrusted Tillman and his increasing 'leftist'-leaning 'treasonous', anti-patriotic questioning the morality of the US's war in Afghanistan -- OR someone was quietly ordered to take him 'out' at an opportune moment by an officer in the chain of command, to eliminate the chance of Tillman becoming a potent voice for anti-war conscience and criticism of the Bush-fraud catastrophe -- It's certainly possible given the many pockets of corrupt dishonor that have now poisoned the military, with the War Industry's paranoia and reversion to absolute anything-goes reasoning that sees the 'mission' as the ONLY thing that ultimately matters -- a legacy of decades of insidious neonazi and neocon influences on the military and the likely infiltration of Gladio-style 'super-patriots'. Starman ****** More nitty-gritty detail of possible interest re: US Ranger armaments: From: juni0r.orcon.net.nz/rangerpage.html US Army Rangers are equipped along the same lines as the rest of the Army in the United States but some operational requirements may change this. Typical additional equipment includes; explosive charges for demolition work, signals sets for long range communications and night vision devices. Silenced weapons may be used for sentry elimination. M16A2 The M16A2 comes from a long line of rifles and is currently the standard issue Assault Rifle of the US military. It is a substantial improvement on previous models. One feature which has upset some users is the 3 round burst feature rather than fully automatic fire, intended to conserve ammunition expenditure. A much improved heavier barrel is fitted and strong zetyl furniture allows for harsh soldiering environments. Another elite force using this weapon is the British 5th Airborne Brigade Pathfinders who use the M16 rather than the standard issue SA80, which has some reliability issues. The Colt Delta is a light sniper variant of the M16A2. The M16A3 model departs from the well known and distinguishable sight / handle arrangement and provides a universal mounting platform for more flexible attachments. This also makes it easier to customise the operator's weapon for specific operations. M4 Carbine Shorter and handier than the M16 the M4 has a place in urban combat or jungle environments where the shorter barrel is also no handicap. Today's modern battlefield encounters, perhaps outside of desert engagements, typically do not find the soldier unduly restricted when armed with a carbine weapon of this nature. The M4 is also useful in the hands of vehicle crews or those on support weapons, where the operator is more concerned with positional self-defence. The M4A1 has the added feature of an automatic trigger group. Various sighting devices can be utilised and the M203 Grenade Launcher can also be fitted for additional firepower as required. The Ranger Regiment also uses the Model 733 Colt Commando, which is even shorter than the M4 Carbine. It is shown below. M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) Known in other services' as the Minimi or C9 this Light Machinegun, designed in Belgium is used by many forces around the world. Using the same small round as the M16 makes for good logistic sense and also other than the standard belt (held in a plastic box) of 200 rounds the weapon also excepts M16 magazines. A gunner may carry a few such magazines for an emergency. With a range of 600 metres and capable of sustained fire rates the M249 is a good accurate weapon for the modern battlefield. M203 Grenade Launcher The M203 is a single shot pump action 40mm Grenade Launcher which fits under the barrel of an M16 Assault Rifle or the shorter M4 carbine. It allows the operator to fire a assortment of different ammunition including smoke, high explosive or even buck shot. The new Product Improved (PI) M203 allows the launcher to be operated safely detached from the rifle using a pistol grip. The M203 supplies a small Recon force with substantial firepower when required for tactical application or when under operational compromise. Ranger Anti-armour Weapons System (RAWS) This weapon is a recoilless rifle designed for light anti-armour work and bunker busting. Based of the Swedish Carl Gustav 84mm medium Anti-tank Rocket Launcher, a total of 16 RAWS are issued to a Ranger Company (152 men). This weapon packs substantially more punch than the 66mm single shot Light Anti-armour Weapon (LAW) but is considerably heavier. It gives the Rangers the firepower they require as a Light Infantry unit to deal with most threats they will face. Addendum: New generation mini-50 cal. M16 upgrades now being produced-- From: <a href="http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=m16_50.htm">www.strategypage.com/gall...m16_50.htm</a> While 6.8mm is the hot new rifle round being promoted for next-generation American assault rifles, two companies are quietly promoting a "mini-50" .50 caliber (12.7mm) round as a supplement to currently rifle calibers. The mini-.50 would be used by special forces and law enforcement officers against re-enforced structures, vehicles, and advanced body armor. The U.S. Coast Guard has already bought a quantity of these weapons for use against "Go-fast" boats and some have reportedly appeared in Afghanistan. To create the mini-.50, a .50 caliber bullet is put into a smaller casing (than the standard .50 round used in machine gun and long-range sniper rifles). The smaller casing trades off less propellant for softer recoil, less accuracy over longer distances, but less stress on the barrel and user. The recoil for the mini-.50 is described as being similar to a 12-gauge shotgun. It also makes for a weapon that is easier to carry and faster to employ than the full-sized .50 caliber rifle designs. The Barrett Light .50 M82A1 rifle employed by the U.S. Army and Marines weighs in at 28 lbs unloaded and is 57 inches long while a mini-50 weighs in at around 8-12 lbs loaded and a little over 36 inches long. Like various 6.8mm projects, gun designers built a hybrid rifle using AR-15/M-16 designs to provide some compatibility with existing hardware. For example, a 30 round M-16 magazine will hold 12 of the fat mini-50 rounds. Conversion kits are available, for around $1600. each, to convert an M-16 type rifle into one firing the mini-.50. Portability and round penetration of the mini-50 family are the key traits to this weapons family. Armored glass that resists 7.62mm fire, yields to the mini-.50, as do doors, locks, and cinder blocks, and engine blocks. Since the rifle is only slightly longer and heavier than a 5.56mm design, it can be used in close range combat and other rapid fire encounters. Two Virginia companies are currently making mini-.50s, the Leitner-Wise Rifle Company in Alexandria (a stone's throw away from the Pentagon) and Alexander Arms, on space leased from Radford Arsenal. – Doug Mohney

by **Iroquois** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:04 pm

I'm sort of applying a reverse civilian filter on what the woman said, but I believe that Sarah's husband was trying to tell her that Tillman was killed by a sniper shooting from a relatively long range and that it was not a friendly fire incident in the sense that it was not an unintentional shooting. Sarah's husband was likely only saying that all the snipers in his unit/from his base, even those not in the immediate area, used the .50 caliber round used by most US military long range snipers. Since the round was not a .50 caliber, and I'm inferring the long range part from the above context, then he was only saying that the sniper was neither from his unit/base nor using the caliber most used by US military snipers. When I read it, I never considered the possibility that either the woman or her husband was implying that Tillman was killed by an "enemy" sniper. I suppose that's my filter, but I read it as it was a deliberate hit on Tillman, but not by a member of his unit and possibly not a member of the US military, in other words either a spook or a merc. Sorry, I should have made that clear. One thing though, this story is contradicted by the report that the bullet holes formed a tight three round group in Tillman's forehead. At long range, especially considering his head would snap back and he would begin to fall after the first hit, the second hit and even more so the third would be nearly as impossible as likely unnecessary. I'm curious then what led Sarah's husband to believe that the round came from far away. Did he just not want to believe that any of the people near him, who would have carried smaller caliber rifles like 5.56mm M4's or M16's, would have done it? Maybe, but that doesn't fit the text very well either. Of course, I may be giving way too much thought to a post on a blog from someone who met someone who said she was the wife of someone who was in Tillman's platoon. Starman, very good post. Again, I'm sorry I didn't make my position more clear above. If the intent of the blog blurb was to imply it was a foreign sniper, I agree that it was disinfo. The intended audience of the blog seems to give that theory some credit. But, the technical details were so mangled (mistating that all US troops carry .50 caliber rifles) it came across as sincere to me. Then again, maybe that was the point. Ack, headache.

by **Floyd Smoots** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:46 am

The late, lamented Admiral Jeremy Michael Boorda, one of the Chief's of Naval Operations, under the Clinton administration, committed suicide(?). The official story is that he, a man who had joined the U.S. NAVY as an E-1 enlistee, and worked his way up to Fleet Admiral, on his own merits, then, was appointed C.N.O.; was so Embarrassed by the MSM'S "outing" of a small "V" enhancement on one, and one only, of his awarded medals for his valiant conduct in the late unpleasantness in Vietnam, that, out of Eastern-type shame, and "loss of face", he killed himself in a small area of the Pentagon's inner park space. Strangely, he "came clean" to the Bitch-Goddess, Medea, and admitted that he had probably "mis-worn" the added "V" to his service medal, on his well-earned chestful of "fruit salad", as we Yanks like to call it. He then, publicly removed the offending 3/16" high "V", and never spoke publicly about it again. Suspiciously, within a few weeks, or less, he just couldn't bear the shame he had brought upon his beloved Navy, and self-destructed. The FBI report stated that he had shot himself in the chest, not once, but twice! Weigh in here for me, you "estrogen-challenged" humans, and explain to old Alexander, WHY a man, bent on dying would shoot himself in the chest, not once, but twice!!! Usually, the first time hurts so much, that you have all-but-dissuaded yourself from performing an encore. This is according to most M.D.'s, Psychologists, and Psychiatrists! I, myself, like many humans before me, have considered a suicidal act, whilst lurking in the depths of depression. BUT, as a knowledgeable gun owner since my 14th birthday, Why, Oh WHY wouldn't I just shoot myself in the head, knowing the location of my brain, and, as a semi-educated man, wanting to just get it over with, with as little pain as possible??? You think dear-departed Saint Tillman's death is suspicious? And, I DO agree!!! Check out the death of Jeremy Michael Boorda!! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> Ex Radioman 3rd Class, Alexander F. Mutter, B22-81-04 (originally issued serial #) Former Holder of a TOP SECRET Clearance! Well, Y'know, right there's your proof that Ol' Floyd's a Troll, 'n' a Secret Agent Spy-type!!! He once worked for/was drafted by (GASP!!!) The Untied States Department of De-Fence!!! Wunder whut kinda paint he used on dem dere Fences? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

by **professorpan** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:14 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The FBI report stated that he had shot himself in the chest, not once, but twice! Weigh in here for me, you "estrogen-challenged" humans, and explain to old Alexander, WHY a man, bent on dying would shoot himself in the chest, not once, but twice!!! Usually, the first time hurts so much, that you have all-but-dissuaded yourself from performing an encore. This is according to most M.D.'s, Psychologists, and Psychiatrists! I, myself, like many humans before me, have considered a suicidal act, whilst lurking in the depths of depression. BUT, as a knowledgeable gun owner since my 14th birthday, Why, Oh WHY wouldn't I just shoot myself in the head, knowing the location of my brain, and, as a semi-educated man, wanting to just get it over with, with as little pain as possible???<hr></blockquote> Maybe he didn't want to blow his face off in case his wife or kids had to see the body. Maybe he thought it would be less messy than spraying his brains all over the place. Who knows. We can speculate, but I don't think shooting one's self in the chest -- even twice -- is a clearcut indication that he was suicided.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:58 pm

"I'm Pat fucking Tillman!"...what a horrible way to go. Tillman's death is no doubt a 'burning' topic on the military blogs and boards and will be treated like anything else the military wants diffused. Rumors, exaggerations, 'insider' buzz. I wonder if the idea that Pat was a reader who had turned against the war was partly salvaged by lying to the remaining true-believers who are likely to believe 'it was Chomsky's fault' since Chomsky is iconic in criticising US military policy and used as a whipping boy along with Michael Moore and William Blum who just got his own major discrediting swipe early this year from the animatronic bin Laden. I agree that the idea of Tillman coming home the Angry Deceived Hero would be a disaster for the Pentagon and he'd be martyred for more mileage, a 'fallen hero'-variation on the narrative of 'Let's-Roll-'passengers-who-fought-back-on-9/11-but-died-for-us'-myth which, by the way, James Bamford pushed in his latest book with detailed you-are-there descriptions of everything going on in the four planes complete with those technically-unlikely if not downright impossible phone calls. Sheesh. Does anyone tell the whole truth and nothing but? I appreciate the efforts on this board to try on all the possibilities to see how well they fit. I get an 'aha' almost every week here, especially when I find out I was only partly right about something. Today I finally found a copy of William Blum's 'Rogue Nation' from the new 'Usama bin Laden book club (lol) and I'm going to plow through it to see if the idea of inevitably dangerous blowback is why this book is being riskily recommended by elves in Langley, Virginia. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 3/8/06 9:15 pm

by **Qutb** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:20 pm

I think William Blum is a lightweight. As far as semi-mainstream opposition figures, I prefer Chomsky, or Gore Vidal.

by **Floyd Smoots** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:40 pm

professorpan, why don't you try just "one shot", but not 'til the death, and then report back to the board members, just why you intelligently eschewed the second shot??? I know you are as well-read, if not better-read than I. Therefore, I am forced to conclude that, physiologically & psychologically speaking, you already know the answers to "why" men don't do that. You simply chose to try to obfuscate the incident. The info I posted was, by no means, "all the evidence uncovered", but, just for smart guys like you, I refrained from posting the rest. I could, like robertdreed, tell you to go and do your own search. I will not, because, I believe that you probably have, and, not liking your own Rigorous Conclusions, have, also chosen to keep the rest of the evidence in the case to yourself, the better to make your pathetic point. Cogitus, ergo, bloviatus. (Be careful how you translate, for the readers, the first word there, it is trap, laid just for you!)

Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Re: Tilman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Re: Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Re: Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Re: Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Re: Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Re: Tillman's uniform was burned...

Weapon calibers

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Not to Interrupt, but, a Blast from the Past....

Re: Not to Interrupt, but, a Blast from the Past....

Re: Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

Re: Tillman's uniform was burned, his journal vanished

A Proposed Rigorous Experiment....

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