Crighton: Aliens Cause Global Warming

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Re: The emperor has no clothes.

Postby professorpan » Mon May 01, 2006 6:22 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Have another look at those charts, and then start doing the logic sums. Logic sums which incorporate the profit factor.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Or look at the overwhelming bulk of the real scientific data. Talk to climatologists and geologists who work in the field and take measurements and crunch the data.<br><br>Edit: Or check out photos of glaciers from only a hundred years ago and contrast them with photos of the same areas now.<br><br>If you look at the data it's undeniable. The industrial age put us on course to potentially cataclysmic climate change. It's happening right now. And those who keep denying it are, coincidentally, aligned with the industries and barons that contribute to the assault on the biosphere. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=professorpan>professorpan</A> at: 5/1/06 4:30 pm<br></i>
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Or take a look at the hockey stick.

Postby slimmouse » Mon May 01, 2006 6:28 pm

<br><br> Take a look at that hockey stick. Take a good hard look.<br><br> I saw that hockey stick this year - 2006 - and one thing hit me like a tax on Oil.<br><br> It seems to stop in 2000. No updates for the last 6 years ?<br><br> Strange huh ? <p></p><i></i>
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Ive never said the planet isnt warming up.

Postby slimmouse » Mon May 01, 2006 6:33 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Or check out photos of glaciers from only a hundred years ago and contrast them with photos of the same areas now.<br><br>If you look at the data it's undeniable. The industrial age put us on course to potentially cataclysmic climate change. It's happening right now. And those who keep denying it are, coincidentally, aligned with the industries and barons that contribute to the assault on the biosphere.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Ive never for one moment suggested that the planet isnt warming up. Neither did Daly. Those facts do appear beyond dispute.<br><br> The big question is why. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Ive never said the planet isnt warming up.

Postby professorpan » Mon May 01, 2006 6:36 pm

Understood, Slim, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.<br><br>But my point is that the science is clear and convincing -- a massive, unprecedented alteration of the planet's atmosphere belched out by industry and automobiles is turning up the heat. <p></p><i></i>
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Have you looked at Dalys stuff ?

Postby slimmouse » Mon May 01, 2006 6:42 pm

<br><br> I think we might both agree that the world we inhabit today has little to do with right or wrong. Its all about money ( by and large).<br><br> Have you actually looked at Dalys studies ?<br><br> Can you even get the amount of light being absorbed by the earth from the sun these days. Ive looked long and hard for the figures. Cant seem to find the damn things anywhere.<br><br> And, incidentally - ever remember those wonderful big fluffy clouds that used to fly above the earth ? The only clouds I tend to see these days are the legacy of Jet planes. And yes, Ive been watching closely where I live just lately.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Have you looked at Dalys stuff ?

Postby bvonahsen » Mon May 01, 2006 9:20 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ive never for one moment suggested that the planet isnt warming up. Neither did Daly. Those facts do appear beyond dispute.<br><br>The big question is why.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>And the answer is more complicated than just <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"sunspots".</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> A number of factors have contributed, even plants exhale some CO2, but the overwhelming contributor is us and our machines. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Have you looked at Dalys stuff ?

Postby Dreams End » Mon May 01, 2006 11:04 pm

Anyone else find this odd:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>Saccharine, margarine, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>repressed memory</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, fiber and colon cancer, hormone replacement therap6y…the list of consensus errors goes on and on.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The bulk of science is quite clear, "repressed memories" are as accurate as continual memories in terms of trauma. It's the non-scientific FMSF that claims, without evidence, the contrary. <br><br>Dozens of studies...all pointing in this direction. I'm sure a skilled or "overzealous" therapist can implant false memories...we know this because the founder of the FMSF, Martin Orne, was doing just such things for the CIA...but the vast majority of spontaneously recovered and even therapeutically retrieved memories have as much factual data as continual memory. Not perfect....but real.<br><br>Not sure what the consensus on margarine was or is... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: What a Jackass

Postby steve vegas » Tue May 02, 2006 12:44 am

His main premise is, you can't take anything on faith, his conclusion is, believe in the future i.e.; take it on faith that we'll figure out how to save the planet. Hello? Anybody awake out there? He refutes his own argument. From a practical perspective he offers no evidence that global warming isn't "real" just a bunch of horseshit about other theories that he claims have been discredited. If we haven't had a massive nuclear exchange, I guess we don't really know if nuclear winter is real or not do we. We just have to take it on faith that it isn't, or maybe it is. Go ahead and tell me this guy is working for the man. Is climate change real? Look out the window. 100 years ago we couldn't project 100 years into the future with the degree of accuracy that we can now, as Crichton the hack novelist points out, we didn't have computers then. Is global warming real? Does it matter? We're fucked either way. We better believe it's real and act accordingly and quit entertaining <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>entertaining bullshit </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->from the likes of Michael Crichton. Why does he care anyway? He plainly states that he's in favor of bad public policy if it benefits him, conservation will benefit him, so he should be in favor of policies that mitigate the effects of, or stop environmental destruction. Go back to your lame novels, you dumbass, Jeff Goldblum needs the work. <p></p><i></i>
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guess he's not very popular

Postby chillin » Tue May 02, 2006 9:31 am

Geez, a lot of people really don't like Crichton. I'm not that familiar with him apart from the dinosaur movies. I don't really see anything so offensive in this article and I think his points about how the science community needs to be rigorous and open-minded when it comes to their methodologies and conclusions are valid. <br><br>Apparently the latest historical data shows that radical climate change is pretty much the norm, I found this article very interesting <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.wunderground.com/education/abruptclimate.asp">www.wunderground.com/educ...limate.asp</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> Especially the conclusion regarding greenhouse gas emissions, "the climate system is an angry beast, and we are poking it.".<br><br>To me there's no doubt that as a species it's time to clean up our act or face extinction. Gas emissions, ozone depletion, deforestation, over-reliance on chemicals and abuse for food production, unbridled industrial pollution, massive urban waste production, the list just goes on and on, it's rediculous. If we keep up this shameful pattern I think we're doomed.<br><br>But I don't think we're doing ourselves any favours by distorting or misrepresenting scientific data to back up our arguments either. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The emperor has no clothes.

Postby gotnoscript » Tue May 02, 2006 10:52 am

"Have another look at those charts, and then start doing the logic sums. Logic sums which incorporate the profit factor."<br><br>I've pretty much given up on the global warming denialists who refuse to look at the data objectively and insist on believing psuedo arguments about following the money or the one dimensional "scientific" logic.<br><br>Here's a brief summary of the problem with believing that solar forcing can explain all the global warming:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/03/solar-variability-statistics-vs-physics-2nd-round/">www.realclimate.org/index...2nd-round/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>In a recent paper in Geophysical Research Letters, Scafetta & West (S&W) estimate that as much as 25-35% of the global warming in the 1980-2000 period can be attributed changes in the solar output. They used some crude estimates of 'climate sensitivity' and estimates of Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) to calculate temperature signal (in form of anomalies). They also argue that their estimate, which is based on statistical models only, has a major advantage over physically based considerations (theoretical models), because the latter would require a perfect knowledge about the underlying physical and chemical mechanisms.<br><br>In their paper, they combine Lean et al (1995) proxy data for the TSI with recent satellite TSI composites from either Willson & Mordvinov (2003) [which contains a trend] and of Fröhlich & Lean (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> [data from the same source, but the analysis doesn't contain a trend, henceforth referred to as 'FL98']. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>From 1980 and afterwards, they see a warming associated with solar forcing, even when basing their calculations on the FL98 data. The fact that the FL98 data doesn't contain any trend makes this finding seem a bit odd. Several independent indices on solar activity – which are direct modern measurement rather than estimations - indicate that there has been no trend in the level of solar activity since 1950s.<br><br>But, S&W have assumed a lagged response (which they state is tS4~4.3 years), so that the increase prior to 1980 seems to have a delayed effect on the temperature. The delayed action is a property of the climate system, which also affects greenhouse gases, and is caused by the oceans which act as a flywheel due to their great heat capacity and thermal inertia. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->The oceans thus cause a planetary imbalance. When the forcing levels off, the additional response is expected to taper off as a decaying function of time. In contrast, the global mean temperature, however, has increased at a fairly steady rate (Fig. 1).<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> The big problem is to explain a lag of more than 30 years when direct measurements of quantities (galactic cosmic rays, 10.7 cm solar radio, magnetic index, level of sunspot numbers, solar cycle lengths) do not indicate any trend in the solar activity since the 1950s. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Global mean temperature from NASA GISSFig. 1. Global mean temperature from GISS.<br><br>In order to shed light on these inconsistencies, we need to look more closely at the methods and results in the GRL paper. The S&W temperature signal, when closely scrutinised (their Fig. 3), starts at the 0K anomaly-level in 1900, well above the level of the observed 1900 temperature anomalies, which lie in the range -3K < T < -1K in Fig. 1. In 1940, their temperature [anomaly] reconstruction intercepts the temperature axis near 0.12K, which is slightly higher than the GISS-curve in Fig. 1 suggests. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> The S&W temperature peaks at 0.3K in 1960, and diverge significantly from the observations. By not plotting the curves on the same graph, the reader may easily get the wrong impression that the construction follows the observations fairly closely. The differences between the curves have not been discussed in the paper, nor the time difference for when the curves indicate maxima (global mean temperature peaks in 1945, while the estimated solar temperature signal peaks in 1960). Hence, the decrease in global temperature in the period 1945 - 1960 is inconsistent with the continued rise in the calculated solar temperature signal. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Another more serious weakness is a flawed approach to obtain their 'climate sensitivity', and especially so for 'Zeq' in their Equation 4. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>They assume a linear relationship between the response and the forcing Zeq=288K/1365Wm-2. For one thing, the energy balance between radiative forcing and temperature response gives a non-linear relation between the forcing, F, and temperature to the fourth power, T4 (the Stefan-Boltzmann law). This is standard textbook climate physics as well as well-known physics. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> However, there is an additional shortcoming due to the fact that the equilibrium temperature is also affected by the ratio of the Earth's geometrical cross-section to its surface area as well as how much is reflected, the planetary albedo (A). The textbook formulae for a simple radiative balance model is:<br><br>F (1-A)/4 = s T4, where 's' here is the Boltzmann constant (~5.67 x 10-8 J/s m2K4).<br><br>('=' moved after Scafetta pointed out this error. )<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> S&W's sun-climate sensitivity (Zeq =0.21K/Wm-2), on which the given solar influence estimates predominantly depend, is thus based solely on a very crude calculation that contradicts the knowledge of climate physics. The "equilibrium" sensitivity of the global surface temperature to solar irradiance variations, which is calculated simply by dividing the absolute temperature on the earth's surface (288K) by the solar constant (1365Wm-2), is based on the assumption that the climate response is linear in the whole temperature band starting at the zero point. This assumption is far from being true. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->S&W argue further that this sensitivity does not only represent the direct solar forcing, but includes all the feedback mechanisms. It is well known, that these feedbacks are highly non-linear. Let's just mention the ice-albedo feedback, which is very different at (hypothetically) e.g. 100K surface temperature with probably 'snowball earth' and at 300K with no ice at all. In their formula for the calculation of the sun-related temperature change, the long-term changes are determined by Zeq, while their 'climate transfer sensitivity to slow secular solar variations' (ZS4) is only used to correct for a time-lag. The reason for this remains unclear.<br><br>In order to calculate the terrestrial response to more ephemeral solar variations, S&W introduce another type of 'climate sensitivity' which they calculate separately for each of two components representing frequency ranges 7.3-14.7 and 14.7-29.3 year ranges respectively. They take the ratios of the amplitude of band-passed filtered global temperatures to similarly band-passed filtered solar signal as the estimate for the 'climate sensitivity'. This is a very unusual way of doing it, but S&W argue that similar approach has been used in another study. However, it's not as simple as that calculating the climate senstivity (see here, here, here, and here). Hence, there are serious weaknesses regarding how the 'climate sensitivities' for the 11-year and the 22-year signals were estimated. For linear systems, different frequency bands may be associated with different forcings having different time scales, but chaotic systems and systems with convoluted response are usually characterised with broad power spectra. Furthermore, it's easy to show that band-pass filtering of two unrelated series of random values can produce a range of different values for the ratio of their amplitudes just by chance (Fig. 2). As an aside, it is also easy to get an apparent coherence between two band-pass filtered stochastic series of finite extent which are unrelated by definition - a common weakness in many studies on solar-terrestrial climate connection. There is little doubt that the analysis involved noisy data.<br><br>Histogram of amplitude ratios for two band-pass filtered stochastic seriesFig. 2 showing band-passed random data. A range of 0.5 – 2.0 suggests that there is a risk that one of the amplitudes in two noisy series is twice the value of the other.<br><br>The fact that there is poor correspondence between the individual amplitudes of the band-passed filtered signals (Fig. 4 in Scafetta & West, 2005) is another sign indicating that the fluctuations associated with a frequency band in temperature is not necessarily related to solar variability. In fact, the 7.3-14.7 and 14.7-29.3 frequency bands may contain contributions from El Niño Southern Oscillation (ENSO), although the time scale of ENSO is from 3-8 years. The fact that the amplitude of the events vary from time to time implies slower variations, just like modulations of the sunspot number has led to the proposition of the Gleissberg cycles (80-90 years). There is also volcanic activity, and the last major eruption in 1982 and 1991 are almost 10 years apart, and may contribute to the variance in the 7.3-14.7 year frequency range. S&W argue that their method eliminates influences of ENSO and volcanoes because their calculated sensitivity in the higher frequency band is similar to the one derived by Douglass and Clader (2002) by regression analysis (0.11 K/Wm-2). This conclusion is not valid. Having signals of different frequencies in the 7-15 years band, the amplitude of the signal in the higher band may correspond roughly to the 11-year signal by accident, but that doesn't mean that there are no other influences.<br><br>S&W combined two different types of data, and it is well-known that such combinations in themselves may introduces spurious trends. The paper does not address this question.<br><br>From regression analysis cited by the authors (Douglass and Clader 2002, White et al. 1997), it seems possible that the sensitivity of global surface temperature to variations of total solar irradiance might be about 0.1K/Wm-2. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>S&W do not present any convincing result that would point to noticeably higher sensitivities to long-term variations. Their higher values are based on unrealistic assumptions. If they would use a more realistic climate transfer sensitivity of 0.11K/Wm-2, or even somewhat higher (0.12 or 0.13) for the long-term, and use trends instead of smooth curve points, they would end up with solar contributions of 10% or less for 1950-2000 and near 0% and about 10% in 1980-2000 using the PMOD and ACRIM data, respectively.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>We have alread discussed the connection between solar activity (here , here, here, and here), and this new analysis does not alter our previous conclusions: that there is not much evidence pointing to the sun being responsible for the warming since the 1950s.<br><br>---<br><br><br>For the record, I am one of those wacko climate researchers. I'll even post my real name if you want to check and there's sufficient interest in exposing my true identity.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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The Emperor

Postby LoganSquare » Tue May 02, 2006 11:28 am

<br>I don't think Crichton believes global warming is natural. He's just another one of the "best and brightest" David Halberstam was referring to:<br><br>who "manipulated the public, the Congress and the press from the start, told half truths . . . " <br><br>It would be interesting to know what he was doing at the Salk Institute in 1969. <p></p><i></i>
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