Republicans accused of witch-hunt against climate change sci

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Republicans accused of witch-hunt against climate change sci

Postby emad » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:43 am

Republicans accused of witch-hunt against climate change scientists <br><br>Paul Brown, environment correspondent<br>Tuesday August 30, 2005<br>The Guardian <br><br><br>Some of America's leading scientists have accused Republican politicians of intimidating climate-change experts by placing them under unprecedented scrutiny.<br><br>A far-reaching inquiry into the careers of three of the US's most senior climate specialists has been launched by Joe Barton, the chairman of the House of Representatives committee on energy and commerce. He has demanded details of all their sources of funding, methods and everything they have ever published.<br><br>Mr Barton, a Texan closely associated with the fossil-fuel lobby, has spent his 11 years as chairman opposing every piece of legislation designed to combat climate change.<br><br><br>He is using the wide powers of his committee to force the scientists to produce great quantities of material after alleging flaws and lack of transparency in their research. He is working with Ed Whitfield, the chairman of the sub-committee on oversight and investigations.<br><br>The scientific work they are investigating was important in establishing that man-made carbon emissions were at least partly responsible for global warming, and formed part of the 2001 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which convinced most world leaders - George Bush was a notable exception - that urgent action was needed to curb greenhouse gases.<br><br>The demands in letters sent to the scientists have been compared by some US media commentators to the anti-communist "witch-hunts" pursued by Joe McCarthy in the 1950s.<br><br>The three US climate scientists - Michael Mann, the director of the Earth System Science Centre at Pennsylvania State University; Raymond Bradley, the director of the Climate System Research Centre at the University of Massachusetts; and Malcolm Hughes, the former director of the Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research at the University of Arizona - have been told to send large volumes of material.<br><br>A letter demanding information on the three and their work has also gone to Arden Bement, the director of the US National Science Foundation.<br><br>Mr Barton's inquiry was launched after an article in the Wall Street Journal quoted an economist and a statistician, neither of them from a climate science background, saying there were methodological flaws and data errors in the three scientists' calculations. It accused the trio of refusing to make their original material available to be cross-checked.<br><br>Mr Barton then asked for everything the scientists had ever published and all baseline data. He said the information was necessary because Congress was going to make policy decisions drawing on their work, and his committee needed to check its validity.<br><br>There followed a demand for details of everything they had done since their careers began, funding received and procedures for data disclosure.<br><br>The inquiry has sent shockwaves through the US scientific establishment, already under pressure from the Bush administration, which links funding to policy objectives.<br><br>Eighteen of the country's most influential scientists from Princeton and Harvard have written to Mr Barton and Mr Whitfield expressing "deep concern". Their letter says much of the information requested is unrelated to climate science.<br><br>It says: "Requests to provide all working materials related to hundreds of publications stretching back decades can be seen as intimidation - intentional or not - and thereby risks compromising the independence of scientific opinion that is vital to the pre-eminence of American science as well as to the flow of objective science to the government."<br><br>Alan Leshner protested on behalf of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, expressing "deep concern" about the inquiry, which appeared to be "a search for a basis to discredit the particular scientists rather than a search for understanding".<br><br>Political reaction has been stronger. Henry Waxman, a senior Californian Democrat, wrote complaining that this was a "dubious" inquiry which many viewed as a "transparent effort to bully and harass climate-change experts who have reached conclusions with which you disagree".<br><br>But the strongest language came from another Republican, Sherwood Boehlert, the chairman of the house science committee. He wrote to "express my strenuous objections to what I see as the misguided and illegitimate investigation".<br><br>He said it was pernicious to substitute political review for scientific peer review and the precedent was "truly chilling". He said the inquiry "seeks to erase the line between science and politics" and should be reconsidered.<br><br>A spokeswoman for Mr Barton said yesterday that all the required written evidence had been collected.<br><br>"The committee will review everything we have and decided how best to proceed. No decision has yet been made whether to have public hearings to investigate the validity of the scientists' findings, but that could be the next step for this autumn," she said.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1558884,00.html">www.guardian.co.uk/usa/st...84,00.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Republicans accused of witch-hunt against climate change

Postby Sokolova » Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:44 pm

Again - as with the killer bugs - this seems a little spurious to me. People who are being witch-hunted or intimidated by the government just don't generally get a big feature piece in a national paper about how intimidated and witch-hunted they are. <br><br>As with the doomsday bugs it has the feeling of a fake confrontation and a pretend controversy.<br><br>Ellie <p></p><i></i>
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'Mainstream' News

Postby Starman » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:39 pm

?????<br><br>Sokolova said:<br><br>'As with the doomsday bugs it has the feeling of a fake confrontation and a pretend controversy.'<br><br>What are you saying -- You don't believe what's being reported or questioning why it's being reported?<br><br>The Guardian is a UK paper -- often publishing articles other US papers don't. But that in itself is hardly an reliable indication of whether an article is factual, let alone whether a special-issue agenda is involved.<br>Didn't the Guardian publish Palast's article re: election-coup controversy of the 2000 US Election almost a year before any other 'mainstream' paper would touch it? <br><br>I'd say, the 'facts' reported here should be readily checkable -- and indeed, via a 5-second google search, they are. Just looking at the headlines, the PTB 'spin' seems to be that the request for full careeer-documentation isn't obtrusive and that the reaction is overblown. From what we know, this GOP-dominated administration is hostile to science that contradicts or criticizes their mercenary/economic interests -- esp/ when it comes to issue of Global Warming with its enormous, serious implications. As far as your observation that the MSM doesn't report on controversial issues re: attacks on credibility, that's not true from my observation. This issue is a case in point, as re:<br><br>ES&T Online News: Congressman unmoved by peer review, asks to see ...<br>The article and report synthesize 12 data sets—such as the width of tree rings and<br>... to argue that global warming is real and is caused by human activity, ...<br>pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/ esthag-w/2005/jul/policy/pt_congress.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages <br><br>USATODAY.com - Global warming roils Congress<br>A heated war of words over a global warming research paper has boiled over in<br>Congress. ... Global warming roils Congress. By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY ...<br>www.usatoday.com/tech/science/ 2005-07-18-warming-congress_x.htm - 57k - Aug 28, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages <br><br>USATODAY.com - Global warming has the House hot under the collar ...Boehlert and Waxman, two men who share a passion for global warming. We regret<br>that our little request for data has given them a chill. ...<br>www.usatoday.com/news/washington/ 2005-07-17-hot-congress_x.htm - 53k - Cached - Similar pages <br><br>The Scientist :: Members of Congress probe climate researchers ... researchers who have produced climate data that support global warming, ...<br>made a mistake, it doesn't invalidate the global warming theory," he said. ...<br>www.the-scientist.com/news/20050722/01 - 31k - Aug 28, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages <br><br>[PDF] Global warming roils Congress<br>File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML<br>Global warming roils Congress. By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY. July 18, 2005 ...<br>global warming. We regret that our little request for data has given them a ...<br>www.house.gov/science/hot/ climate%20dispute/7.18.05%20USA%20Today.pdf - Similar pages <br><br>A Bid to Chill Thinking<br>Joe Barton's recent attack on scientists whose views on global warming he ...He added that the precedent set by this effort "to have Congress put its ...<br>www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ content/article/2005/07/21/AR2005072102186.html - <br><br>Treehugger: Global Warming Critics Made Calculation Errors<br>Global Warming Critics Made Calculation Errors ... All of this assumes that 20<br>years' worth of data can be a predictor of complex atmospheric behavioral ...<br>www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/global_warming_2.php <br>[PDF] Fight Breaks Out in Congress Over Climate Investigation ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML. The letters demanded detailed data about all the studies on which the scientists ... emissions of greenhouse gases to combat global warming. ...<br>www.house.gov/science/hot/climate%20dispute/ 7.18.05%20Chronicle%20of%20Higher%20Ed.pdf - <br><br>When Science Meets Politics on Global WarmingWith those corrections made, our detailed review of the satellite data between 1979 and 1997 ... Is this because the surface data support global warming? ...<br>www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=337 - 20k - <br><br>American Prospect Online - ViewWebA Texas congressman isn't just going after global-warming science -- he's got the ... The scientific peer-review process, not a politicized congressional ...<br>www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root& name=ViewWeb&articleId=9932 - 28k -<br><br>Bush Greenwatch<br>... prevent action on global warming, and encourage America’s oil dependence. ...<br>It also required agencies to accept and review challenges to their data. ...<br>www.bushgreenwatch.org/mt_archives/000163.php - <br><br>Bush Greenwatch<br>... prevent action on global warming, and encourage America’s oil dependence. ...<br>It also required agencies to accept and review challenges to their data. ...<br>www.bushgreenwatch.org/mt_archives/000163.php - <br><br>NCPA E-Team Commentary: Climate Studies Cannot Be Free From Oversight... to prod Congress into taking a more aggressive stance to combat global warming<br>... more skeptical scientists the right to review their raw data or the ...<br>eteam.ncpa.org/commentaries/ global_warming/2005/20050802hb.html <br><br>****<br>Just a sample of US reporting on this issue --<br><br>Really, I'm surprised at you Sokolova -- You made I think an excellant criticism of reactionary, non-rigorous fantastical thinking re: Lively Solar System thread -- which I agreed with except for your evident bias in treating Global Warming as an evident farce -- the 'wrinkle' to your thesis being, Global Warming is NOT being promoted by the industrial/military/economic elites, so it doesn't readily fit your model of people being manipulated by the PTB's dissembling of anxiety-provoking disaster-themed fear-and-trembling doom-and-gloom infotainment disinfo -- Sometimes, lack-of-attention or inappropriate response DOES contribute to hazards becoming fact, the train-wreck HAPPENS. <br><br>I don't think the hazard of Global Warming is 'our' biggest problem, but our archaic, non-democratic and unreasoning political, military and economic systems which aren't amenable to essential human/civil rights and social justice/peace values. I see Global Warming, along with all our other potential and actual problems, as a symptom of our dysfunctional society, with our institutions as you said, out of touch with basic cause-and-effect notions of 'consequences', re: well-grounded, critical-thinking, reality-based.<br><br>Starman<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 'Mainstream' News

Postby Dreams End » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:58 pm

Ellie, so far you've offered one rather dubious site as support for your rather strong belief that global warming as manmade phenomenon (or man-exacerbated) is incorrect at best, or hoax at worse. I undestand caution about "doomsday" scenarios, and indeed, I've done much of that cautioning. But the idea that our administration, which is basically an oil company lobby with a White House address, would harrass those supporting global warming science, is so consistent with their ideology that I'd be suspicious of anything else, quite frankly. Their hostility, alone, doesn't make the science "true", but I don't see any indication that these press accounts show us anything other than business as usual. <br><br>Unless you've got more than that one maverick fellow to go on (and, of course, discounting industry front group pseudo-science) I think your position on this is a bit too knee-jerk. What sites or books, besides the one you previously posted have you so certain that global warming is a sham that even the idea that the Bush administration would harrass these scientists as perceived opponents of his agenda strikes you as "phony"? I can see the global warming issue being used as yet another doomsday scenario to keep people hopeless, but the overwhelming consensus seems to support it. Also, unlike these other doomsday scenarios, human action can still make a difference, though that human action is counter to what some large corporations might like. This is a distinction from, say, the extreme version of Peak Oil that says nothing we can do can save us. Things will get bad no matter what, says global warming, but there's still time to stave off the worst. So for me, this doesn't seem to be serving the same agenda.<br><br>One agenda it MIGHT be serving, whether true or not, is to slow the development of developing countries which are emerging as competitors to the US. However, even if global warming is true, it could still be used for such ploys, so that won't tell us anything about the science itself. It would be an area to explore as to motive for such a highly public call of alarm. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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the global warming thing

Postby Sokolova » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:59 pm

Okay guys, I'll try and make a better job of telling you where I am. Bear with me. It's not a soundbite area. <br><br>Firstly, let's agree to call man-made climate change 'ACC' ('anthropogenic climate change', the 'scientific' name) which is the thing under dispute, and to distinguish this from global warming - which isn't. <br><br>No one is seriously disputing the earth is warming; in fact it definitely is, and has been since the end of the 19th C. The question is - why? <br><br>Now to make a few basic points:<br><br>1. I don't <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>believe</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> that man-made global warming is false. I think there is simply not enough data as yet to suggest it is <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>true</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. In science that is an important distinction which I want to make sure is preserved.<br><br>2. I didn't just quote one 'maverick' site that takes a more skeptical view of ACC, I quoted two - and there are many more. I'll put a few of them down the bottom of this.<br><br><br>To start somewhere (this really is a huge subject):<br><br>There are actually at least two and probably three histories to 'ACC', just as there are two or three histories to all modern scientific pursuits.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>First we have the deeply complex one detailed in the scientific studies; this is little known outside scientific circles and not much debated - even by scientists themselves when addressing the popular media.<br><br>Secondly there is the 'lite' version of the above, couched in what attempts (but often fails) to be layman's language and passed on to the media, and sometimes to various potential funding bodies. This version tends - for obvious reason- to present a more simplified and therefore inevitably more dishonest or exaggerated view. <br><br>Thirdly there is the version that eventually makes it into the media. This tends to be different again. Sometimes exceedingly so. Believe me. I've worked (in a very junior capacity) in prestigious research labs, and it was the norm to find our carefully worded statements translated by the media almost beyond recognition into sensational pseudo-science, which would still be getting quoted back and used to form the basis of feature articles years after we'd tried in vain to put the record straight.<br></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>Let me give you one example of how this works.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Back in 1985 when ‘ACC’ was still under debate a journalist phones a climatologist and asks "could 'Hurricane X' be caused by global warming?" <br><br>From the scientist's point of view he knows the planet is warming (that much is obvious) and he has as yet no conclusive data about what this warming might do to weather patterns.<br><br>So he says "yes it might".<br><br>What he means by this is that the present warming of the earth (which as yet has no proven cause and may well be simply natural) may be causing some increase in hurricane activity.<br><br>What the journo hears is that Dr Y thinks that 'global warming' (which in her mind, but of course not in his, is a synonym for 'ACC') is causing more hurricanes. And so the next day, poor Dr Y sees a headline that says:<br><br> <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Leading Climate Scientist believes hurricane X could be caused by climate change. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>This headline is read by millions of people, and they think that ‘scientists’ believe ‘global warming’ (by which the mean ACC’) is ‘proved’. As a result the protagonists on both sides find it even harder and harder to communicate with one another in future. When scientists try to qualify and correct, journos tune out; they tune back in only when they hear more words that seem to them to be telling ‘the story’ as they now perceive it. Worse than this , the popular –media perception can even carry science with it, so that climatologists feel the need to stand behind the exaggerated versions of their words that have appeared in print, and are pressured to 'prove' them in order to save face and keep funding. So, by degrees the paradigm of debate is moved along towards an ever-increasing, but wholly premature climate of certainty.<br></em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br>This can happen in all science, even without any added confusion caused by deliberate manipulation (which I suspect there could be in this case). Scientists get misquoted. They protect next year's funding by talking up their case. They get locked into mindsets and bigotries just like people everywhere. They end up letting the zeitgeist direct them, and lose sight of what they were supposed to be doing. It happens all the time (the HIV/AIDS/ AZT scandal is another good example of this phenomenon), and it's happened in the story of 'climate change', to a quite extreme degree. <br><br>This doesn't mean - as I said at the beginning and need to keep saying - that I don't think ACC could be true. I an fully aware that it could be true. But I’m also aware that no data which eliminates all other equally or more likely possibilities (sun spot activity, simple natural warming after the Mini Ice Age) has yet been shown to exist. There are things which <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>might</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> point to ACC - but might in science is the foundation of an hypothesis which must then be tested, not a reason for belief. When I see scientists forget this, and leap straight from 'might' to certitude with scant attention to the in between, then I know there's something wrong. <br><br>From everything I have seen, the data doesn't adequately support many of the claims being made for it by Mann et al. This doesn't prove them wrong, but it does mean they could easily be overreaching and making unjustified assumptions - just as the proponents of AZT and the HIV/AIDS hypothesis have done.<br><br>I can try and show you all this if you like, but I would need you to come back with me to the basics of this question, and to look at a lot of the data, which isn't always too fascinating.<br><br>Do you want to do this? Shall I start a new thread, or resurrect the old one and bend your ears with all this stuff?<br><br>Meantime, while you're thinking about it, here's some links to some 'skeptical' sites. To my mind some of these are not truly skeptical, but are selling a line just as much as Mann is. They are clearly politically motivated and anti-Green (which makes me inclined to dismiss them). But some data can be found and examined if you are persistent. Unfortunately the most objective (like the first link) are also the most dense and hard to get into, with masses of statistics and analysis – but it’s the only way to do climate science unfortunately and it doesn’t make for good soundbites.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/">www.climateaudit.org/</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>good objective blog, but not that easy to read for the non-climatologist<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.climatechangeissues.com/files/PDF/conf05mckitrick.pdf"> http://www.climatechangeissues.com/file ... itrick.pdf[/link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>This is a good primer for the debate about the ‘Hockey Stick'. You can find Mann’s response on one of the sits below.<br><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg15n2g.html">www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg15n2g.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>(hate the source of this one totally)<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html">www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/trc.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.climate2003.com/mann.responses.htm">www.climate2003.com/mann.responses.htm</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/"> http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.warwickhughes.com/">www.warwickhughes.com/</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <br>(hate this one, and expect you will too) <p></p><i></i>
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ah yes...

Postby proldic » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:22 pm

"They end up letting the zeitgeist direct them" <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ah yes...

Postby Dreams End » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:46 pm

I'll check the sites in a bit, but I've seen statements ISSUED DIRECTLY by groups of scientists about climate change...they come out periodically and are usually MORE dire than what's in public dialogue at the moment. There was one such statement several years ago signed only by Nobel Laureates.<br><br>And some still argue there isn't global warming at all, manmade or no. So can we discount, in your opinion, that perspective? It sounds to me like you accept that the earth is warming, just not that ACC is the correct analyis of that warming. <br><br>I'll check out the links.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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?

Postby proldic » Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:06 pm

Can someone show me many times when "scientific consensus" in the capitalist world <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>hasn't</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> been in lock-step with the goals of the ruling-class?<br><br>Regardless, what is going to be largely responsible for dissolving national sovereignty today -- and bringing on the NWO -- is the global environmental accords, via the trio of popularly-received threats: man-made climate change (vs., say, mutagenation), peak oil (vs, say, "planned shrinkage"), and overpopulation (vs., say, "economic justice")... <br><br>-- all compelling <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>environmental</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> concerns.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: dummies version

Postby ZeroHaven » Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:05 pm

Since Ellie's warning signals make sense to me, I decided to break this article down into really simple terms. If something smells fishy you gotta look for the fish!<br><br><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:maroon;">Story:</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br>Scientists say: stop burning stuff, it's bad.<br>Bush to international community: bugger off.<br>Barton points to scientists: hand over your whole life history!<br>Other scientists say: life history is irrelevant. Asking for it is intimidation.<br>Waxman is outraged: this is harrassment!<br>Barton's secretary says: We've got it all, go read.<br>Committee says: ok, see you soon.<br><br><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:maroon;">Analysis:</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br>If Barton had only asked for climate-related research, there would be no outrage, just another day at the office. <br>No outrage = no media attention = sheeple don't hear it.<br>This greenhouse gas issue is again in the public eye, to be followed up.<br><br>The scientists' data should include the natural warming as well as your "ACC", if they really did decent research. <br>There is a possibility some funding came from environmental groups who support green laws.<br><br><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:maroon;">Probable outcome(s):</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br>Scientists get accused of skewing the data to support their position.<br>Or, It will be said the data is inconclusive. Likely with added slurs to their character.<br>Bush will flip off the international community, again.<br>People watching will feel less guilty driving around in their Hummers and SUVs, and buying all that expensive gas.<br>------<br>Yeah, I get it now. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>
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Earlier this year UK's BBC TV showed a documentary

Postby emad » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:13 am

on satelite-sourced climate analysis over the Atlantic region and atmospheric tests taken on the days immediately following 9/11 when no transatlantic airline traffic was present.<br><br>It showed significant drop in airborne pollutants and the resulting effects on atmospheric pressure, wind currents and tidal behavior.<br><br>This was the only credible study to date of the immediate effects on the weather when CO2 and other pollutant emissions are taken out of the equation.<br><br>The documentary's findings overall said that earth-sourced pollution play a pivotal role in climate. And that other major significant factors such as solar cycles may contribute at least an equal amount to climate change.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Earlier this year UK's BBC TV showed a documentary

Postby Sokolova » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:29 pm

<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:x-small;">on satelite-sourced climate analysis over the Atlantic region <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>and atmospheric tests taken on the days immediately following 9/11 when no transatlantic airline traffic was present.<br><br>It showed significant drop in airborne pollutants and the resulting effects on atmospheric pressure, wind currents and tidal behavior.<br><br>This was the only credible study to date of the immediate effects on the weather when CO2 and other pollutant emissions are taken out of the equation.<br><br>The documentary's findings overall said that earth-sourced pollution play a pivotal role in climate. And that other major significant factors such as solar cycles may contribute at least an equal amount to climate change.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br><br>Without meaning to be at all rude to you personally (I don't hold you responsible for the claims!), this is exactly the kind of absurd 'non-science to impress the masses' that most alarms me. No responsible climatologist could possible endorse the idea that measuring the weather over one day when a few less planes were flying was in any way equivalent to assessing "the immediate effects on the weather when CO2 and other pollutant emissions are taken out of the equation", because quite simply all of the pollutants could not be 'taken out of the equation' by simply grounding a few planes for a few hours. Still less could anyone claim that this would give the slightest insight at all into the longterm relationship between CO2 and climate. Scientifically this statement is largely meaningless and if supposedly reputable 'experts' are backing this then they are putting publicity and message-selling ahead of rigour. <br><br>I'm not going to say more now as I'm thinking New Orleans is more important than anythign else right now. But in a day or so I'll start a thread on the whole science of this - and maybe other similar issues.<br><br>Ellie <p></p><i></i>
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Re: the global warming thing

Postby gotnoscript » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:30 pm

Ellie,<br> I find it real telling that you neglect to mention the RealClimate weblog which features postings by the very scientists doing the research. It's just one more nail in the argument that you're nothing but a troll for the oil-funded disinformation campaign. How much are they paying you?<br>Here, for example, is Michael Mann's response to the disinformation campaign launched against him using the pseudo-science that was intended to discredit him and quoted under in the comments from a recent article in Rigorousintuition:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=111#more-111">www.realclimate.org/index...1#more-111</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"McIntyre and McKitrick (henceforth "MM")...published a paper, in the controversial journal Energy and Environment, claiming to "correct" the proxy-based reconstruction of Northern Hemisphere temperatures published by Mann et al (1998--henceforth "MBH98"). Following the all-too-familiar pattern, this deeply flawed paper was heavily promoted by special interests as somehow challenging the scientific consensus that humans are altering the climate (an excellent account is provided by science journalist Dan Vergano of USA Today here). As detailed already on the pages of RealClimate, this so-called 'correction' was nothing more than a botched application of the MBH98 procedure, where the authors (MM) removed 80% of the proxy data actually used by MBH98 during the 15th century period (failing in the process to produce a reconstruction that passes standard "verification" procedures--an error that is oddly similar to that noted by Benestad (2004) with regard to another recent McKitrick paper). Indeed, the bizarre resulting claim by MM of anomalous 15th century warmth (which falls within the heart of the "Little Ice Age") is at odds with not only the MBH98 reconstruction, but, in fact the roughly dozen other estimates now published that agree with MBH98 within estimated uncertainties.<br>All of their original claims have now been fully discredited (see e.g. this previous post as well as this discussion of a paper 'in press' in the Journal of Climate by Rutherford et al). MM however, continue to promote false and specious claims. "<br><br>I also find this quote about the attacks against the three climate scientists in the BBC pretty much sums up the oil cartel's views:<br>'Myron Ebell, of the Competitiveness Enterprise Institute and a prominent global warming sceptic, told BBC News: "We've always wanted to get the science on trial", and "we would like to figure out a way to get this into a court of law", adding "this could work".'<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4693855.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4693855.stm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>-rjh<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Myth vs. Fact on "Hockey Stick"

Postby gotnoscript » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:51 pm

<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=11">www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=11</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>MYTH #0: Evidence for modern human influence on climate rests entirely upon the "Hockey Stick" Reconstruction of Northern Hemisphere mean temperatures indicating anomalous late 20th century warmth.<br><br>This peculiar suggestion is sometimes found in op-ed pieces and other dubious propaganda, despite its transparant absurdity. Paleoclimate evidence is simply one in a number of independent lines of evidence indicating the strong likelihood that human influences on climate play a dominant role in the observed 20th century warming of the earth's surface. Perhaps the strongest piece of evidence in support of this conclusion is the evidence from so-called "Detection and Attribution Studies". Such studies demonstrate that the pattern of 20th century climate change closely matches that predicted by state-of-the-art models of the climate system in response to 20th century anthropogenic forcing (due to the combined influence of anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations and industrial aerosol increases).<br><br>MYTH #1: The "Hockey Stick" Reconstruction is based solely on two publications by climate scientist Michael Mann and colleagues (Mann et al, 1998;1999).<br><br>This is patently false. Nearly a dozen model-based and proxy-based reconstructions of Northern Hemisphere mean temperature by different groups all suggest that late 20th century warmth is anomalous in a long-term (multi-century to millennial) context (see Figures 1 and 2 in "Temperature Variations in Past Centuries and The So-Called 'Hockey Stick'").<br><br>Some proxy-based reconstructions suggest greater variability than others. This greater variability may be attributable to different emphases in seasonal and spatial emphasis (see Jones and Mann, 2004; Rutherford et al, 2004; Cook et al, 2004). However, even for those reconstructions which suggest a colder "Little Ice Age" and greater variability in general in past centuries, such as that of Esper et al (2002), late 20th century hemispheric warmth is still found to be anomalous in the context of the reconstruction (see Cook et al, 2004).<br><br>MYTH #2: Regional proxy evidence of warm or anomalous (wet or dry) conditions in past centuries contradicts the conclusion that late 20th century hemispheric mean warmth is anomalous in a long-term (multi-century to millennial) context.<br><br>Such claims reflect a lack of awareness of the distinction between regional and large-scale climate change. Similar such claims were recently made in two articles by astronomer Willie Soon and co-authors (Soon and Baliunas, 2003; Soon et al, 2003). These claims were subsequently rebutted by a group of more than a dozen leading climate scientists in an article in the journal "Eos" of the American Geophysical Union (Mann et al, ‘Eos‘, 2003). The rebuttal raised, among other points, the following two key points:<br><br>(1) In drawing conclusions regarding past regional temperature changes from proxy records, it is essential to assess proxy data for actual sensitivity to past temperature variability. In some cases (Soon and Baliunas, 2003, Soon et al, 2003) a global 'warm anomaly' has been defined for any period during which various regions appear to indicate climate anomalies that can be classified as being either 'warm', 'wet', or 'dry' relative to '20th century' conditions. Such a criterion could be used to define any period of climate as 'warm' or 'cold', and thus cannot meaningfully characterize past large-scale surface temperature changes.<br><br>(2) It is essential to distinguish (e.g. by compositing or otherwise assimilating different proxy information in a consistent manner—e.g., Jones et al., 1998; Mann et al., 1998, 1999; Briffa et al., 2001) between regional temperature changes and changes in global or hemispheric mean temperature. Specific periods of cold and warmth differ from region to region over the globe (see Jones and Mann, 2004), as changes in atmospheric circulation over time exhibit a wave-like character, ensuring that certain regions tend to warm (due, for example, to a southerly flow in the Northern Hemisphere winter mid-latitudes) when other regions cool (due to the corresponding northerly flow that must occur elsewhere). Truly representative estimates of global or hemispheric average temperature must therefore average temperature changes over a sufficiently large number of distinct regions to average out such offsetting regional changes. The specification of a warm period, therefore requires that warm anomalies in different regions should be truly synchronous and not merely required to occur within a very broad interval in time, such as AD 800-1300 (as in Soon et al, 2003; Soon and Baliunas, 2003).<br><br>MYTH #3: The "Hockey Stick" studies claim that the 20th century on the whole is the warmest period of the past 1000 years.<br><br>This is a mis-characterization of the actual scientific conclusions. Numerous studies suggest that hemispheric mean warmth for the late 20th century (that is, the past few decades) appears to exceed the warmth of any comparable length period over the past thousand years or longer, taking into account the uncertainties in the estimates (see Figure 1 in "Temperature Variations in Past Centuries and The So-Called 'Hockey Stick'"). On the other hand, in the context of the long-term reconstructions, the early 20th century appears to have been a relatively cold period while the mid 20th century was comparable in warmth, by most estimates, to peak Medieval warmth (i.e., the so-called "Medieval Warm Period"). It is not the average 20th century warmth, but the magnitude of warming during the 20th century, and the level of warmth observed during the past few decades, which appear to be anomalous in a long-term context. Studies such as those of Soon and associates (Soon and Baliunas, 2003; Soon et al, 2003) that consider only ‘20th century’ conditions, or interpret past temperature changes using evidence incapable of resolving trends in recent decades , cannot meaningfully address the question of whether late 20th century warmth is anomalous in a long-term and large-scale context.<br><br>MYTH #4: Errors in the "Hockey Stick" undermine the conclusion that late 20th century hemispheric warmth is anomalous.<br><br>This statement embraces at least two distinct falsehoods. The first falsehood holds that the "Hockey Stick" is the result of one analysis or the analysis of one group of researchers (i.e., that of Mann et al, 1998 and Mann et al, 1999). However, as discussed in the response to Myth #1 above, the basic conclusions of Mann et al (1998,1999) are affirmed in multiple independent studies. Thus, even if there were errors in the Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> reconstruction, numerous other studies independently support the conclusion of anomalous late 20th century hemispheric-scale warmth.<br><br>The second falsehood holds that there are errors in the Mann et al (1998, 1999) analyses, and that these putative errors compromise the "hockey stick" shape of hemispheric surface temperature reconstructions. Such claims seem to be based in part on the misunderstanding or misrepresentation by some individuals of a corrigendum that was published by Mann and colleagues in Nature. This corrigendum simply corrected the descriptions of supplementary information that accompanied the Mann et al article detailing precisely what data were used. As clearly stated in the corrigendum, these corrections have no influence at all on the actual analysis or any of the results shown in Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> . Claims that the corrigendum reflects any errors at all in the Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> reconstruction are entirely false.<br><br>False claims of the existence of errors in the Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> reconstruction can also be traced to spurious allegations made by two individuals, McIntyre and McKitrick (McIntyre works in the mining industry, while McKitrick is an economist). The false claims were first made in an article (McIntyre and McKitrick, 2003) published in a non-scientific (social science) journal "Energy and Environment" and later, in a separate "Communications Arising" comment that was rejected by Nature based on negative appraisals by reviewers and editor [as a side note, we find it peculiar that the authors have argued elsewhere that their submission was rejected due to 'lack of space'. Nature makes their policy on such submissions quite clear: "The Brief Communications editor will decide how to proceed on the basis of whether the central conclusion of the earlier paper is brought into question; of the length of time since the original publication; and of whether a comment or exchange of views is likely to seem of interest to nonspecialist readers. Because Nature receives so many comments, those that do not meet these criteria are referred to the specialist literature." Since Nature chose to send the comment out for review in the first place, the "time since the original publication" was clearly not deemed a problematic factor. One is logically left to conclude that the grounds for rejection were the deficiencies in the authors' arguments explicitly noted by the reviewers]. The rejected criticism has nonetheless been posted on the internet by the authors, and promoted in certain other non-peer-reviewed venues (see this nice discussion by science journalist David Appell of a scurrilous parroting of their claims by Richard Muller in an on-line opinion piece).<br><br>The claims of McIntyre and McKitrick, which hold that the "Hockey-Stick" shape of the MBH98 reconstruction is an artifact of the use of series with infilled data and the convention by which certain networks of proxy data were represented in a Principal Components Analysis ("PCA"), are readily seen to be false , as detailed in a response by Mann and colleagues to their rejected Nature criticism demonstrating that (1) the Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> reconstruction is robust with respect to the elimination of any data that were infilled in the original analysis, (2) the main features of the Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> reconstruction are entirely insensitive to whether or not proxy data networks are represented by PCA, (3) the putative ‘correction’ by McIntyre and McKitrick, which argues for anomalous 15th century warmth (in contradiction to all other known reconstructions), is an artifact of the censoring by the authors of key proxy data in the original Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> dataset, and finally, (4) Unlike the original Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> reconstruction, the so-called ‘correction’ by McIntyre and McKitrick fails statistical verification exercises, rendering it statistically meaningless and unworthy of discussion in the legitimate scientific literature.<br><br>The claims of McIntyre and McKitrick have now been further discredited in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, in a paper to appear in the American Meteorological Society journal, "Journal of Climate" by Rutherford and colleagues (2004) [and by yet another paper by an independent set of authors that is currently "under review" and thus cannot yet be cited--more on this soon!]. Rutherford et al (2004) demonstrate nearly identical results to those of MBH98, using the same proxy dataset as Mann et al (199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> but addressing the issues of infilled/missing data raised by Mcintyre and McKitrick, and using an alternative climate field reconstruction (CFR) methodology that does not represent any proxy data networks by PCA at all. <p></p><i></i>
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just thinking out loud

Postby AnnaLivia » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:38 am

Er…um…this is decidedly un-scientific analysis, but I’ll venture that what Ellie ISN’T trying to say is that we should move along now because there’s nothing to see here…and what she IS trying to say is that if we’re not extra careful about just what science we buy into, we risk being manipulated. And we all (here) know the exhorbitant cost of being messuaged. (a Joycean term for the message being a massage)<br><br>Climate change. “Peak Oil”. Population.<br><br>These three “topics” are especially subject to especially dangerous manipulation, IMO. IMO, we have yet to imagine the magnitude of the consequences to humanity and this planet, should we allow ourselves to be mislead and our leaders to misstep as we address these three “topics”. Makes perfect sense they’d be prime tools the wealthpowerful would pick up and use, if only given the opportunity. Buy the wrong science and the Malthusians will see to it you become a dog ready to eat a dog. Buy the wrong science and the undeveloped world stays undeveloped. Buy the wrong science and they’ll take every dime you have in oil profits when it was direly needed to find you and your descendents new energy.<br><br>I think Ellie is saying that only through exacting science can we best guarantee we’ll make the right choices.<br><br>Am I gettin’ close yet, E?<br><br>The trouble is, we’re up against the clock, plus the truth might turn out to be that we could only ever identify the point of no return by looking in the rearview mirror. So we’re caught in this struggle between ‘do the right thing’ and ‘act NOW’. It feels like we’re on a tightrope.<br><br>I think I understand the questions. What I don’t understand is why the smart thing to do isn’t completely obvious: When the stakes are this high, err on the side of caution.<br><br>To me that means get damn busy conserving what’s left while we get damn busy figuring out how to proceed. There are babies being born every minute. Are we going to leave them nothing but plenty of reasons to despise us?<br><br>If people were educated and paid fairly…if their opportunities were not withheld from them…then population would self-stabilize. <br><br>Gas SHOULD be expensive…..but the profits must be used to find it’s replacement, or the future is sentenced to hardship and hard manual labor.<br><br>And as far as I’m concerned on climate change, if science can’t catch up with risk, then risk has to be scaled back. (O’course me, personally, I’d rather deconstruct the billionaires and use the money to fund the sciences, but everyone’s in love with the idea of having billionaires so I guess that’s out.)<br><br>You can let the manipulators have your hope. Hope will kill ya anyway. But guard with your life your willingness to keep bothering. Guard your self against those who want you to believe nothing can be done. Guard against those who say we’re screwed so wait for heaven. Guard against those who seek to justify draconian measures used against some. You will recognize them by their insistence that there are no other choices.<br><br>I think Ellie has seen that attitude as a possible result of wrong science…not to mention the danger of being discredited by having a thing wrong. I think she’s going on the premise that a friend is one who warns you.<br><br>To me, it’s about balance. It’s about having both mouse eyes and eagle eyes. Mouse eyes to scrutinize the details, and eagle eyes to see the vast vista. <br><br>As for the politicos in congress, their demands are more of the pure pick-and-choose self-serving horseshit I expect from them. The House of daily outrage is filled with fools.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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BBC documentary: Ellie you just shot yourself in the foot

Postby emad » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:48 am

Ellie you don't READ the posts and then paraphrase to suit whatever personal rant you want to put across. And you make arrogant assumptions without even ever having seen the documentary in question. And don't say you don't mean to be rude personally because that clearly is your intention.<br><br>QUOTE:<br>"this is exactly the kind of absurd 'non-science to impress the masses' that most alarms me."<br><br>You didn't SEE the BBC documentary but you straight away assumed it must be some sort of quack show.<br><br>For the record the BBC has won umpteen international awards for the quality of its documentaries, especially its investigative scientifical broadcasting. As a UK publicly-funded body backed by a renowned professional ethics charter it is not in the back pocket of any commercial interests and remains stoically neutral in the commissioning, production and broadcasting of its material.<br><br>So the only 'absurd non-science' programmes must be the ones you watch in the US.<br><br>The BBC TV documentary survery was conducted over the period immediately following 9/11 when no airline traffic flew over the Atlantic. From memory this was at least 3 - 4 days, maybe even a whole week. IE unprecedented in the last 40 years or so.<br><br>The studies were carried out by UK and US scientists: from Natural Environment Research Council, the UK Meteorological Office, The US's National Environmental Satellite, Data, Information Services, the National Institute for Global Environmental Change and the World Meteorological Organisation.<br><br>The authoritative and extensive data gathered by these organisations was analysed and compared to extensive WMO data banks.<br><br>The documentary also focused on archaeological and botanical evidence of carbon pollution of the atmosphere by examining oceanic data and ancient tree-ring information that related to disasters such as volcanic eruptions - Krakatoa, Pompeii etc.<br><br>There is a follow-up documentary in the pipeline, to be shown at the end of this year. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=emad@rigorousintuition>emad</A> at: 9/1/05 9:05 am<br></i>
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