Vegetarianism

by **professorpan** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:39 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When we live in a society that can't decide whether eggs, fat, carbs, cholesterol, etc etc etc ad nauseam is good or bad, I think it's pretty hard to trust anyone's judgement is correct.<hr></blockquote> There is a lot of confusion, but the science is pretty clear -- excessive consumption of trans fats, animal products, and limited fruits and vegetables will cause health problems. The diet that holds up the best under scrutiny is the "Meditteranean" diet -- fresh vegetables and fruits, fish, meat in limited quantities if at all, olive oil and other healthy fats, and whole grains. It's pretty simple, and it's not radical. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>'ll stick to the diet that humans have had for hundreds of thousands of years. Grain, fruit, vegetables, meat where you can get it, and delicious animal byproducts<hr></blockquote> Part of the problem is that the modern diet of heavily processed foods, copious amounts of pesticide and hormone-laden meat, and few fruits and vegetables is taking its toll on the health of societies. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Of course I'll try to get it from a local, sustainable and humane farm.<hr></blockquote> And that is precisely the answer, regardless of your dietary preferences. I shop at a local farmer's market, which supports small farmers, many of whom sell organic products. Supporting local farmer's markets, community supported agriculture co-ops, and the like is a trend worth supporting. *edited to add "olive oil and other healthy fats" Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=professorpan>professorpan</A> at: 3/9/06 12:42 pm

by **FourthBase** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:55 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Beware of doctrinair and cultish beliefs.<hr></blockquote> Hitler farted, too. Beware of farting! Do people bring up "Hitler was a vegetarian" because they subconsciously realize the horrific magnitude of meat-eating? Beware of such a doctrinaire belief as...abolition! Don't believe in anything too strongly! Nature intended us to have slaves! Some abolitionists were horrible people! I've never encountered a weirder, more reflexive set of responses on this board. It's like corresponding with Meatloaf: "I would do anything for truth...but I won't do that." <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You don't think plants have feelings?<hr></blockquote> Hilarious. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|"> Cut a plant, then cut a pig. Then get back to me. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yes, humans evolved as omnivorous creatures, as our physiology attests. We also evolved as murderous slave-owners and warmakers. I'm glad our evolution has produced a growing number of people who reject violence and oppression. We can, and do, make choices that have ethical consequences. I have always found the animosity of meat eaters against vegetarians strange.<hr></blockquote> Yes. Exactly. Thank you Pan, and Slim. I guess I figured this subject would be rife with RI-related implications. Instead, it seems I found a subject that even most Rigorous Intuitors won't abandon their mundane assumptions and attachments to discuss. I'm still holding out hope for a more thoughtful discussion. To clarify: I do not consider dairy products to be "meat", because an animal is not killed and dismembered to produce milk, and eggs are not living feeling creatures.

by **slimmouse** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:03 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Hilarious. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|"> Cut a plant, then cut a pig. Then get back to me. <hr></blockquote> Go easy on connut, 4th base. I mean, just because we cant hear it, doesnt really mean shit to be fair <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> Ive posted this link a couple of times before, but theres no harm whatsoever giving it another spin within the context of this discussion; Sometimes it happens that a person can name the exact moment when his or her life changed irrevocably. For Cleve Backster, it was early morning on February 2, 1966, at thirteen minutes, fifty-five seconds of chart time for a polygraph he was administering. One of the world's experts on polygraphs, and the creator of the Backster Zone Comparison Test, the standard used by lie detection examiners worldwide, Backster had threatened the subject's well-being in hopes of triggering a response. The subject had responded electrochemically to this threat. The subject was a plant.......... I was on an airplane once, and had with me a little battery-powered galvanic response meter that I could hook to electrodes. I had the aisle seat, and I can still remember the poor guy strapped in next to the window. Just as the attendants started serving lunch, I pulled out this meter and said to him, "You want to see something interesting?" I put a piece of lettuce between the electrodes, and when people started to eat their salads we got some reactivity, which stopped as the leaves went into shock. Then I said, "Wait until they pick up the trays, and see what happens." When attendants removed our meals, the lettuce got back its reactivity. The point is that the lettuce was going into a protective state so it would not suffer. When the danger left the reactivity came back. This ceasing of electrical energy at the cellular level ties in, I believe, to the state of shock that people, too, enter in extreme trauma  full article ; <a href="http://www.derrickjensen.org/backster.html">www.derrickjensen.org/backster.html</a>

by **chillin** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:05 pm

Hey Slim, I found the link earlier this week, although I remember there being some tabloid intrest in someone who claimed to have given up food in the recent past. Not sure if it's the same guy. One of the things I find intriguing about it is that Casteneda wrote about sungazing exercises in The Power of Silence. Don Juan said that the quality of the light was only suitable at the same times the guy from the link specifies. Guess that would be common sense though, the sun is distinctly unpleasant to look at once it gets up to full power.

by **slimmouse** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:12 pm

an hour after sunrise, and an hour before sunset, and only for about 10 seconds to begin with. Im interested in this whole energy sphere actually. I mean, food is of course energy ( and vitamins), but according to the link, light is obviously a source of energy, but also apparently some vitamins ( not quite sure exactly how many ) But hey, If I go blind, Im filing <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

by **FourthBase** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 pm

Yikes, I'll have to remember that the next time I look a plant in the eye...oh wait, plants don't have eyes, or brains, or a nervous system remotely like ours. I don't doubt that plants can react to stimuli, and maybe they have some form of feelings. But we know that animals feel, and suffer. In the exact same way that we feel, and suffer.

by **professorpan** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:06 pm

Backster's research caught my attention when I first read of it in the 70s. It was also a big part of the book "The Secret Life of Plants," and inspired people to talk to their plants, give love to them, etc. Backster's work is intriguing, but hasn't been successfully duplicated enough for me to completely buy into it. However, research into plants over the past couple of decades has shown them to be much more complex than has been commonly accepted. They communicate via chemicals, for instance, alerting nearby plants to changing conditions or predators. Again, even if you buy into the idea that plants are conscious or sentient or feel pain, eating meat results in many more dead plants than just eating plants. And we do need to eat, regardless of what kooky "breatharian" cults say. Life consumes life. Things must die so we can live. We can either go through life unaware of the consequences of our consumption, or make an intelligent, informed, ethical decision to pay attention.

by **mother** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:15 pm

Please allow me to repeat that for me vegetarianism has nothing to do with morals, except for cloning which I am firmly against.

by **nomo** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:27 pm

<a href="http://www.last.fm/music/Reverend+Horton+Heat/_/Eat+Steak">www.last.fm/music/Reveren.../Eat+Steak</a> <a href="http://www.lyricsdir.com/reverend-horton-heat-eat-steak-lyrics.html">www.lyricsdir.com/reveren...yrics.html</a> Eat steak, eat steak eat a big ol' steer Eat steak, eat steak do we have one dear? Eat beef, eat beef it's a mighty good food It's a grade A meal when I'm in the mood. Cowpokes'll come from a near and far When you throw a few rib-eyes on the fire Roberto Duran ate two before a fight 'Cause it gave a lot of mighty men a lot of mighty might Eat steak, eat steak eat a big ol' steer Eat steak, eat steak do we have one dear? Eat beef, eat beef it's a mighty good food It's a grade A meal when I'm in the mood. Eat meat, eat meat, filet mignon Eat meat, eat meat, ear it all day long Eat a few T-bones till you get your fill Eat a new york cut, hot off the grill Eat steak, eat steak eat a big ol' steer Eat steak, eat steak do we have one dear? Eat beef, eat beef it's a mighty good food It's a grade A meal when I'm in the mood. Eat a cow, eat a cow 'cuase it's good for you Eat a cow, eat a cow it's the thing that goes "Mooooo" Look at all the cows in the slaughterhouse yeard Gotta hit'em in the head, gotta hit'em real hard First you gotta clean'em then the butcher cuts'em up Throws it on a scale throws an eyeball in a cup Saw a big Brangus Steer standing right over there So I rustled up a fire cooked him medium rare Bar-B-Q'ed his brisket, a roasted his rump Fed my dog that ol' Brangus Steer's hump Eat steak, eat steak eat a big ol' steer Eat steak, eat steak do we have one dear? Eat beef, eat beef it's a mighty good food It's a grade A meal when I'm in the mood.

by **john doe** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:28 pm

When talking about plants and pain, a quote from Edgar Cayce comes to mind about the "the cabbages screaming at harvest time..." This thread segways into the current "DNA glow" post nicely: Marcel Joseph Vogel's... areas of expertise were phosphor technology, liquid crystal systems, luminescence, and magnetics. In the 1970’s Marcel did pioneering work in man-plant communication experiments. This led him to the study of quartz crystals and the creation of a faceted crystal that is now known as the Vogel-cut® crystal. The Vogel-cut® crystal is an instrument that serves to store, amplify, convert, and cohere subtle energies. Marcel’s research into the therapeutic application of quartz crystals led him to the investigation of the relationship between crystals and water. He discovered that he could ...convert it into an information storage system. <a href="http://www.vogelcrystals.net/legacy_of_marcel_vogel.htm" target="top">Article here.</a>  ...He learned that when he released his breath slowly there was virtually no response from the plant. When he pulsed his breath through the nostrils, as he held a thought in mind, the plant would respond dramatically. It was also found that these fields, linked to the action of breath and thought, do not have a significant time domain to them. The responsiveness of the plants to thought was also the same whether eight inches away, eight feet, or eight thousand miles! Based on the results of the experiments the inverse square law does not apply to thought. This was the beginning of Marcel’s transformation from being a purely rational scientist to becoming a spiritual or mystical scientist. Basically it was found that plants respond more to the thought of being cut, burned, or torn than to the actual act. He discovered that if he tore a leaf from one plant a second plant would respond, but only if he was paying attention to it. The plants seemed to be mirroring his own mental responses. He concluded that the plants were acting like batteries, storing the energy of his thoughts and intentions. He said of these experiments: “I learned that there is energy connected with thought. Thought can be pulsed and the energy connected with it becomes coherent and has a laser-like power.” Marcel discovered that the greatest cohering agent is love...

by **FourthBase** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:32 pm

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|">

by **mother** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:35 pm

Wow, if a cabbage screams at the thought of being cut, I wonder what an unborn baby does during an abortion?

by **FourthBase** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:37 pm

Funny, john doe, I was inspired to post this thread after thinking about Jeff's recent DNA post. I still insist that plant feelings, if they improbably exist, are a miniscule concern compared to the sentience of animals.

by **havanagilla** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:55 pm

I was "ethical vegetarian" from age 14 till 21 or so, and it harmed my health, as I was suffering from b12 defficiency. I also associate it with sexual guilt, and other issue related to that age. however, although now I eat meat consciously when i feel the b12 level dropping, I still support the idea of ethical vegetarianism, where possible and appropriate. I do resent, though, the political bourgeois "green" politics that sometimes accompany the issue, in the public sphere. the reason people mention Hitler, is to recalibrate perspectives. First, take care of human suffering, not because humans are superior but because "charity begins at home". -- As for plants having consciousness. who knows, maybe stones and sand have them too, i mean we are star dust after all. Jewish mysticism tells about sinners who incarnated in Rocks, or sand, just to feel the constant pain of people stepping on them. and being unable to move, talk or stretch their backs. So, mind your steps, you might be walking on people. Personally, I found that Ayervedic diet and rules (and Indian foods) are good for me. Israeli food, is too heavy for me. It is basically vegetarian, but I don't keep that part, because of health issue. PLus the ayurveda has some grudge against GARLIC, which I don't follow, i think garlic is very healthy in cleaning parasites from the intestines. The first Chief Rabbi In Israel, R. Cook was a devout vegetarian who ruled that in a short while Kosher will mean vegetarian, namely, that it is time to issue a binding ruling against eating meat/animals altogether. Kosher rules are designed to prevent over eating of meat. namely, the kosher rules are an interpretation of the original biblical prohibition to eat a lamb cooked in his mother's milk. Namely, do not be greedy and cruel so as to cook the Kid (cub) in the milk of his mother. Later, it evolved into not eating any meat with dairy. Also, I think that all those complicated slaughter rules made it harder to eat a lot of meat, one cannot just kill the animal and cook it, but has to kill it only in a certain way, and then drain it in a certain way, and pull out stuff or what not, which makes it a drag, hell, i'll give up and eat a carrot instead. Plus, meat has to be well done, namely, no drop of blood to be on it, which really makes meat very bland and unappealing. no "rare" steaks just laundered chicken with lots of salt. The moslems also have Hallal rules, which are along the same lines of certain ways of dealing with meat (both Moslems and Jews do not eat pork), so they also consume much less meat. Bottom line, as usual, it is the western eurocentric christian culture that needs the restrains and goes into excess (either pigging out or going on a total "prohibition").

by **FourthBase** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I was "ethical vegetarian" from age 14 till 21 or so, and it harmed my health, as I was suffering from b12 defficiency. I also associate it with sexual guilt, and other issue related to that age. however, although now I eat meat consciously when i feel the b12 level dropping, I still support the idea of ethical vegetarianism, where possible and appropriate.<hr></blockquote> Did you not have access to B12 supplements? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I do resent, though, the political bourgeois "green" politics that sometimes accompany the issue, in the public sphere. the reason people mention Hitler, is to recalibrate perspectives. First, take care of human suffering, not because humans are superior but because "charity begins at home".<hr></blockquote> If charity begins at home, then surely benevolence begins with animals. You've seen reports of murderers who begin by abusing animals? Murdering animals unnecessarily for their flavor <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/sick.gif ALT=":x"> has built a foundation of psychic violence. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>As for plants having consciousness. who knows, maybe stones and sand have them too, i mean we are star dust after all. Jewish mysticism tells about sinners who incarnated in Rocks, or sand, just to feel the constant pain of people stepping on them. and being unable to move, talk or stretch their backs. So, mind your steps, you might be walking on people.<hr></blockquote> Cute, but absurd when compared to the palpable, visible, recognizable fear and agony of a dying animal. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Personally, I found that Ayervedic diet and rules (and Indian foods) are good for me. Israeli food, is too heavy for me. It is basically vegetarian, but I don't keep that part, because of health issue. PLus the ayurveda has some grudge against GARLIC, which I don't follow, i think garlic is very healthy in cleaning parasites from the intestines.<hr></blockquote> Again, isn't there a store where you live that sells B12 supplements? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The first Chief Rabbi In Israel, R. Cook was a devout vegetarian who ruled that in a short while Kosher will mean vegetarian, namely, that it is time to issue a binding ruling against eating meat/animals altogether.<hr></blockquote> Really? I'll have to look him up, he sounds great. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Kosher rules are designed to prevent over eating of meat. namely, the kosher rules are an interpretation of the original biblical prohibition to eat a lamb cooked in his mother's milk. Namely, do not be greedy and cruel so as to cook the Kid (cub) in the milk of his mother. Later, it evolved into not eating any meat with dairy. Also, I think that all those complicated slaughter rules made it harder to eat a lot of meat, one cannot just kill the animal and cook it, but has to kill it only in a certain way, and then drain it in a certain way, and pull out stuff or what not, which makes it a drag, hell, i'll give up and eat a carrot instead. Plus, meat has to be well done, namely, no drop of blood to be on it, which really makes meat very bland and unappealing. no "rare" steaks just laundered chicken with lots of salt.<hr></blockquote> I love Judaism, I truly do. A religion that thinks. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The moslems also have Hallal rules, which are along the same lines of certain ways of dealing with meat (both Moslems and Jews do not eat pork), so they also consume much less meat. Bottom line, as usual, it is the western eurocentric christian culture that needs the restrains and goes into excess (either pigging out or going on a total "prohibition"<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> .<hr></blockquote> Hindu = western eurocentric christian culture?

Vegetarianism

Re: Wake Up!

Re: Wake Up!

Feelings or consciousness ?

sungazers

specific times are quoted.

Re: specific times are quoted.

Re: specific times are quoted.

moral superiority

Eat Steak

Re: plants and pain

Re: Eat Steak

plants and pain

Re: plants and pain

Re:meat

Re: Re:meat

Who is online