Vegetarianism

by **Connut** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:02 pm

I had the distinct pleasure of working with Marcel Vogel when he healed a friend of mine by using a crystal. She had burst a bursa in her spine and couldn't move a muscle without pain. She had been lying in bed for a week, suffering a lot of pain. All of this was documented on her xrays from the hospital. When Marcel heard about it, he brought his crystal to her room, offered up a prayer, and directed his breath and energy through the crystal, using my husband as a step down transformer, and restored my girlfriend to health. She sat up, then stood - a bit wobbly from lying prone all week - then walked out of the room. I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes! Yeah for crystal power and plant energy!! Cheers, Connut

by **professorpan** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:39 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I love Judaism, I truly do. A religion that thinks.<hr></blockquote> One problem with kosher slaughter is that, ironically, it can result in more suffering for cattle at the slaughterhouse. Because cattle, by kosher law, cannot fall in their own blood, many slaughterhouses hoist them up by their legs before killing them. This breaks the leg of the animal and causes extra suffering. Of course, this is because of the mechanized nature of animal agriculture, not the original kosher law. On another note, B-12 supplements are certainly an option, and vegans should definitely take it. The sublingual B-12 is much more bioavailable. And though it's not clear from Hava's post, you can get B-12 from various plant sources, supplements, and non-meat animal products (cheese, eggs, etc.).

by **FourthBase** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:43 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>One problem with kosher slaughter is that, ironically, it can result in more suffering for cattle at the slaughterhouse. Because cattle, by kosher law, cannot fall in their own blood, many slaughterhouses hoist them up by their legs before killing them. This breaks the leg of the animal and causes extra suffering.<hr></blockquote> Fuck.

by **john doe** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:20 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>...many slaughterhouses hoist them up by their legs before killing them. This breaks the leg of the animal and causes extra suffering.<hr></blockquote> I've heard that animals killed ("harvested", slaughtered, whatever) while undergoing stress taste different because of chemicals released into their system due to the fear. Consequently, major meat packers such as IBP attempt to isolate the slaughter floor from incoming cattle so they don't hear the screams... ---------- This conversation reminds me of the movie "The Last of the Mohicans", where Daniel Day Lewis's character prays over the deer he has just killed, thanking him for the sustenance, and promises to nourish the earth the deer walked on with the remains of his own body when he dies...

by **mother** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:31 pm

The slaughtering industry is so gross it's a wonder the employees don't have PTSD. Does anyone remember the noteworthy woman with Asperger's Syndrome who developed a system to decrease terror for the cows? I'm thinking it was she who devised the more humane method described above. Wish I had an avocado tree...

by **Quentin Quire** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:36 pm

I'm an omnivore myself but I have great respect for vegetarians and vegans. My own personal view is that there are millions of men, women and children dying around the world and that our efforts should be focused upon alleviating human suffering first. Once we've sorted this out we should focus our attention upon the - very real - suffering humanity inflicts upon the animal kingdom. Just my own opinion, of course ...

by **Asta** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:49 pm

Temple Grandin, an autistic woman who understands animal mentality. She designs slaughter houses to reduce the fear of animals when they go to die. She's written a few books. I have ordered one...because she was interviewed on the Lynne Cullen show on 1360 am radio in Pittsburgh (you can stream this radio show -- liberal talk show, rare stuff these days). Temple was a very strange, interesting person to hear in her descriptions of her life and works. After listening to her, I researched her on the net and saw many of her "blue prints" for a slaughter house. It was both humane and sad at the same time. I believe she really understands animals' minds. I was quite taken by her words. I think she really cares. Even her name is interesting. Temple Grandin. Grand in Temple. In Grand Temple. (some of you anagram geniuses should have at it.)

by **john doe** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:54 pm

Connut- neat story about the crystal healing. Side Topic: About objects storing thoughts- you all might be interested in the theories of Masaru Emoto, and how the crystaline structure of water is affected by emotion. And although some doubt the validity of his work (Wikipedia lift their leg pretty high over him), I think it's worth a ponder. "The energy or vibrations of the environment will change the molecular shape of water..." <a href="http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm" target="top">How water reflects our consciousness</a>

by **marykmusic** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:00 am

The utter terror of any animal transported to a strange place, smelling the fear (and bodily fluids) of those that have gone before, releases adrenaline ("fight-or-flight") into the bloodstream and thus into every cell. The indigenous hunting methods included, as mentioned from the Mohicans movie, thanking the animal and if possible gazing into its' eyes in a prayerfull attitude with its last breath. Deer and elk that are shot at long range, taken down cleanly and well, without ever seeing the hunter and going into panic, taste better. This was proven to me many years ago. My choice is for my own reasons, which doesn't have to be foisted on anyone else. BUT everyone should be informed so as to take responsibility for whatever choice they make. --MaryK

by **FourthBase** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:34 am

Regarding choice: If killing an animal to eat it is wrong, then it's wrong and there is no choice allowed. Is any other murder a matter of personal choice? Is rape? Theft? The question is simply: Is it wrong? It's wonderful that a stranded hunter who needs to kill an animal to survive in the wilderness will say a prayer and share a moment with its victim. Reminds me of that crash in the Andes. That's an extreme moral example, however. If you're cooking burgers in your backyard, you are not stranded and starving in the wilderness. Next time you're in the supermarket, just imagine that the meat aisle is full of retarded human flesh. Because that's basically what a pig or a cow is. A dumb and disfigured human being in a four-legged body. Now...tell me how that's not true. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|">

by **smithtalk** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:15 am

survival is the primary force that governs life and if you need to cut a sheeps throat and eat it to live you will and it is not wrong in any moral sense, but factory farming is so abhorant that no words do it justice, it is a stain on all who directly or indirectly participate in it, animals deserve to live before they die, as do we, in my experience meat eaters give far more shit to vegetarians than the other way round, they have a real sense that they need to justify it to themselves, always asking "so why are you a vegie" and following with repeated attacks, personally i was destroying my own health with total vegetarianism, so i eat a bit of red meat (not much) and i get it from my local butcher who knows which farm it comes from, and i eat a lot of fish from the best fish shop in fremantle, fresh off the boats

by **FourthBase** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:36 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>if you need to cut a sheeps throat and eat it to live you will<hr></blockquote> ...And unless you're stranded in the wilderness, you don't need to. And even then, if you have a Boy's Scout guidebook it's probably possible to survive without killing an animal. Anyway, starving in the wilderness is an extreme scenario, and does not in any way justify the concept of meat-eating. If some psycho tries to stab you, you might need to break his neck in self-defense. Does that mean that breaking someone's neck is inherently morally OK? I don't understand why your health deteriorated. Did you forswear diary and eggs, too? Like I asked someone else, did you not have access to B12 supplements and other vitamins? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>in my experience meat eaters give far more shit to vegetarians than the other way round, they have a real sense that they need to justify it to themselves, always asking "so why are you a vegie" and following with repeated attacks<hr></blockquote> This is ABSOLUTELY true. Meat-eaters get very defensive about their right to eat meat. Like slaveowners must have felt about their right to own slaves. p.s. If imagining meat aisles as being stocked with dismembered human retards is too gruesome...how about meat aisles full of butchered family pets? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 3/9/06 10:38 pm

by **havanagilla** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:43 am

At the time I was growing up here there was no B12 supplements and NO awareness. Basically, what happened was that my hair started falling fast, and the doctor just said, you have to eat meat. that's it. Now, it is very different. But also, I found out that no pill or supplement is as efficient as eating red meat occasionally. In general, supplements should be default and the best way is to increase vitamins via food. -- AS for slaughtering and Kosher, of course, PPan, I don't think that the ritual slaughetring applies NOWADAYS, as many other precepts. BUt, I respect the novelty and wisdom of those precepts in the context of THEIR TIME. Therefore, perhaps an equivalent today would be to call for vegetarianism as replacement to the Kosher rules, in view of the present day proboems and challenges in ecosystems and personal health. that's why i brought that guy Cook, who said so. -- Food intake is based on HABITS, and the rules are creating habits. Kosher rules at that time created habits of restraint, mindfulness and some compassion to animals (compared to what has been around then). The problem with the mass, factory producing meat (and other foods) is that it has been cut off from personal habits, or accountability. I see food preparation as holy, certainly the intake should be, and our culture now prevents the natural connection between a person and her food. -- As for the somewhat jestful/derogatory comment on euro-western christians - I stand by it, namely, there is lack of moderation in the treatment of life. Its like I was travelling in Austria once, Salzburg, nice place, I mean it is pictoresque, tranquil, really nothing like the middle east. Everyone is SOOOOO polite, soooo quiet, orderly, I mean...unfucking believable. And then I thought, well, only 50 years ago these people behaved like a murderous pack of wolves. So, maybe being TOO inhibited in daily external conduct creates a storage of violence/aggression that has to be released now and then in a very extreme way. Whereas out Semite cultures are more on balance with the human nature preventing excesses. But forgive me if I spoke heresy re the superiority of the western white culture... -- Politically-, 4thbase and others, nobody CARES who is eating veggie at home. But if you make a "case" of it, on the public agenda, it has to be scrutinized in the context of social movements, etc. The "veggie" movement can sometimes associate itself with the too green eco fascists. I think this is what bIAo said, and I totally agree.

by **FourthBase** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:35 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Politically-, 4thbase and others, nobody CARES who is eating veggie at home. But if you make a "case" of it, on the public agenda, it has to be scrutinized in the context of social movements, etc. The "veggie" movement can sometimes associate itself with the too green eco fascists. I think this is what bIAo said, and I totally agree.<hr></blockquote> I could NOT CARE LESS what "movements" are advocating vegetarianism. If there's an evil organization that's against slavery or rape, does that nullify or diminish the argument against slavery or rape? The question is simply this: Is killing an animal to eat it morally wrong? If it is morally wrong then it should be stopped. Period. Just like slavery. Or should I keep my abolitionist opinions to myself, too? Think about ending slavery in my own home, but don't dare make a "case" of it? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Whereas out Semite cultures are more on balance with the human nature preventing excesses.<hr></blockquote> Are you serious? Semite = Middle East, right? You again neglected to address Hindus, BTW. You might also want to address Buddhists, while you're at it. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Now, it is very different. But also, I found out that no pill or supplement is as efficient as eating red meat occasionally. In general, supplements should be default and the best way is to increase vitamins via food.<hr></blockquote> Link, source? Also, "efficiency" = convenience. So again, flavor and convenience... That justifies murdering a sentient animal? Some food for thought: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights</a>

by **havanagilla** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:19 am

4thbase, I wasn't trying to make a comprehensive argument about vegetarianism, and I can sense you are very attached to the issue. I am against unnecessary killing of animals, and people and both are still happening full scale everywhere. Don't confuse me with those who actually DO that. I am tring to form an opinion. there are intellectual analyses and attempts to get to a unified coherent political agenda that encompasses the variety of challenges in our times. Animal rights are among those issues. Then there are political considerations on priorities and agenda. --- I didn't include hinduism or buddhism simply because I don't know enough of those cultures to say anything credible or substantiated. --- Semite I meant Middle eastern, yes. And this is to offset the Amygdala disparaging comments on our region. As for intake of B12 naturally via food, this is the common advice I get from both medical doctors and naturopathic doctors, namely, that balancing vitamins or other chemicals is better done through the food rather than taking pills. A lot of the supplements contain other stuff, some do not actually get digested at all, etc. Not to mention the taste. Actually, B12 is primarily given in shots because it does not melt in the stomach at all, or you can put those pills under the toungue hoping it will work. Since I have a phobia from shots, this is not an option for me. BTW, B12 defficiency can cause severe mental problems especially in adolecents. It is hardly distinguishable from mental illness (psychosis too), but it isn't ofcourse. I wonder how many people are misdiagnosed, I think a lot are. Same goes for other imbalances (lack of B2 will simply cause death at a certain point; heavy metal imbalances are likewise causing semblence of severe psychosis. But this is off topic). 4th, I think you slavery example is great, and thanks for bringing it in. The abolition is good, and I read a brilliant article, wish I found it again, comparing abolition to "animal rights" in a way that leaves you COMPELLED to agree. It is relatively new, I'll dig up the reference. Was slavery abolished ? it was legally changed and that's good, but on balance, I really don't know if slavery rates are up or down, globally since then. Extreme revolutions are important in raising awareness but they have their own life span, in terms of regulating human and social conduct. Slavery is all over, and now it doesnt even have a name and a code and an institution. Economic corporate capitalist slavery, actual sex slavery and women in general etc. Universal military draft, wherever it still exists IS slavery. If I take Jewish law, again, as indicative, it contains a statement AGAINST slavery, but also imposes a code of rules in case one does have or own slave. Namely, not to sexually exploit female slaves, not to be cruel or starve slaves, the rules for release and a slave being able to buy its freedom etc. What I mean about moderate treatment of life, sometimes lacking in western culture, is the understanding that by saying "We abolished slavery" you don't necessarily kill the problem, because it is a human trait to exploit another who is weaker. The USA while abolishing slavery within its confines (and thus affecting the world as well) has created much more slavery by simply ripping off the third world and other such subjugated places. So, on balance we have say a few million black folks released from bondage and a few dozen million blacks in Africa, put in slavery for the corporate AMericans. But then slavery you don't have to SEE is easier to maintain. Changes are gradual, and one has to repeat habits again and over, to make them change. same with eating meat, it has to be a gradual social change to which I agree, not by prohibition but by providing alternatives and educating.

Vegetarianism

Re: Marcel Vogel

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Mother, you're talking about

stored thought forms

Fear= Adrenaline

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veg

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