Religion and conspiracy theories

by **Attack Ships on Fire** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:18 pm

While they didn't contain any comments about religion, this past week there were two editorials in my local newspaper attacking counter-9/11 theorists as crackpots. Neither author of the two pieces attacked the counter 9/11 evidence but instead made snide comments about how these "conspiracy theorists" seek order in a chaotic world and how all tragedies must be the result of a higher power orchestrating them. Silly me. I thought the job of the journalist should be to seek out the truth and report on it and not preach dogma. The really absurb part of one of these editorials was where the author made a comparison to Watergate and how a conspiracy cannot be kept a secret because people like to talk. Where was the 9/11 Deep Throat, the author asked? Wait a minute: is this author now admitting that Watergate *was* a conspiracy? How many people in Nixon's administration and the FBI knew of what happened at the Watergate Hotel? A couple of dozen, minimum. And just *one* person stepped forward to give insider information to the media? Gee, that sounds like proof that a huge government conspiracy *can* maintain an order of silence, doesn't it? This past week I've seen a number of reports attacking the counter 9/11 message. Personally I am keeping an open mind about what happened on 9/11, preferring to err on the side that it was all the work of terrorists, but the solid, thoughtful and constructive scientific-based questions that have arisen from counter 9/11 theorists deserve to be addressed and not dismissed. If one side in a debate chooses to attack the messenger instead of addressing the points of the debate, chances are good that they have some agenda that they're hiding.

by **NewKid** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:25 pm

Yeah, it's the same guy, Iroquois. Here are some of his other entries: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Michelle Malkin has a hilarious take on Hot Air on the Cindy Sheehan diet plan that I have been talking about. Yumm, I feel like a smoothie...<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/07/jamba-juice.html" target="top">thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/07/jamba-juice.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I noticed this excellent exchange between "progressive" economist Jason Fuhrman and far-left whiny anti-capitalist writer Barbara Ehrenreich on Slate. It isn't a fair fight.<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/07/more-on-walmart.html" target="top">thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/07/more-on-walmart.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Geez, I have met Serbian war criminals who were more pro-American than this guy. American presence in Iraq is more dangerous to world peace than nuclear threats from North Korea or Iran, U.S. Rep. John P. Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat, said yesterday to a crowd of more than 200 in North Miami. <hr></blockquote> <a href="http://thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/06/can-we-question-your-patriotism-yet.html" target="top">thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/06/can-we-question-your-patriotism-yet.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>This is really starting to piss me off. I guess every time we want to run some covert program to catch terrorists, we have to get the permission of the NY Times first. The National Review has a good roundup: For the second time in seven months, the Times has exposed classified information about a program aimed at protecting the American people against a repeat of the September 11 attacks. On this occasion, it has company in the effort: The Los Angeles Times runs a similar, sensational story. Together, the newspapers disclose the fact that the United States has covertly developed a capability to monitor the nerve center of the international financial network in order to track the movement of funds between terrorists and their facilitators. <hr></blockquote> <a href="http://thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/06/ny-times-war-against-america.html" target="top">thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/2006/06/ny-times-war-against-america.html</a> Ann Coulter couldn't have said it any better.

by **chiggerbit** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:32 pm

I don't know about you, Attack, but sudden flush of anti-CT editorials and articles reminds me very much of the flush of articles that suddenly appeared when the media outlets realized that they were facing stiff competition from the bloggers. Whenever you see a flush like that, it's a sign that it's just dawned on somebody that THE PEOPLE aren't viewing the bloggers or the CT'ers as weirdos. I think they're scrambling and very worried.

by **isachar** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:34 pm

Iroquois, Way to out the little prick. Well done. Figures qutb, apparently a full fledged member of the little prick society himself, would post his garbage and represent it be be authentic.p. Advantage - Iroquois. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=isachar>isachar</A> at: 9/17/06 4:36 pm

by **bvonahsen** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:03 pm

MPR's mid-morning had a show on conspiracy theories, only they had a couple of professors who wrote a book. At the beginning of the show the host make it absolutely clear they were not discussing the substance of any particular theory. Just the phenomenon itself. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> <a href="http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/09/05/midmorning2">Conspiracy theories as populist power</a> September 5, 2006 With recent polls showing a growing acceptance of alternative theories about what happened on September 11, Midmorning looks at conspiracy theories, how they develop, and what they tell us about American culture. Guests Mark Fenster: Professor of law at the University of Florida and author of "Conspiracy Theories: Secrecy and Power in American Culture." Jeff Pasley: Associate professor of history at University of Missouri-Columbia and a contributor to "Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia."<hr></blockquote> I found it highly offensive and have stopped listening to MPR. On the other hand, they made some valid points and others are made in this thread. Conspiracy theorists tend to subsitute their theories for religious belief. Almost like an article of faith, a particular theory seems to often have deep emotional ties with a believer. This is especially true with new age beliefs. Conspiracy theories also seem to thrive in the absence of good information. For good reasons, people do not trust the government, not since Watergate. Add to that the rumor and gossip prevalent on the internet, and the extreme secracy of this current administration and you have a volatile mix there. There is entirely too much quoting of highly dubious material. Take the UFO publications on or off line. They all feed off one another. But none of that makes a single word they print true. Just repeating what someone thought they saw or experienced is useless. And so many of them are just.. so bad, so poorly reasoned, it's incredible. Bat boy is more believable than most of the dreck that passes for "UFO research". Finally, standards are low, here at RI they are better but in most conspiracy minded forums they are quite low to non existant. Real argument, you know, reasoned argument, is virtually absent in conspiracy land. Coincidence is not argument. Quoting bad information is not scholarship. What little argument there is out there is done by third rate philosophy professors like Feltzer or bad actors who want to promote their own personal delusions. Facts are what we need and yet are nowhere to be found these days. In a vacuum of facts, hucksters like Icke abound. There are problems with places like Bad astronomy or PysOrg too. They have a very elitist attitude when it comes to these issues. The science I like very much, the attitude I could do without. Nobody seems to argue in good faith anymore. By that I mean debating with a goal to discovering the truth, not scoring points. And they don't seem to treat this topic much better. They get just as emotional and put forward badly reasoned posts on this or that aspect. They are good at picking the low hanging fruit though. We really did go to the moon and the various conspiracy theories about that are pretty easy to debunk. In the end, Jeffs latest post illustrated where I sit in all this. Yeah, those chinese astronomers feed their emperor something he could understand and yet, I can't get rid of that image of lights in the sky doing acrobatic manoeuvers. They shouldn't have been there at all and yet, there they are. The real problem is that is about as far as we can reasonably go. Something mysterious happened, what? No one knows and we'll probably never know. Anecdotal evidence can't prove anything, but it can point to something else. That's what I like and it is what keeps me interested.

by **Attack Ships on Fire** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:19 pm

bvonahsen said... "There is entirely too much quoting of highly dubious material. Take the UFO publications on or off line. They all feed off one another. But none of that makes a single word they print true. Just repeating what someone thought they saw or experienced is useless. And so many of them are just.. so bad, so poorly reasoned, it's incredible. Bat boy is more believable than most of the dreck that passes for "UFO research"." There are good, solid, scientifically investigators out there who have years of backed research into the UFO mystery and they are ignored by the mainstream. Vallee, Keel, Hynek, Friedman, and to a lesser extent Hopkins and Mack's work. There are the military records showing vehicles making fantastic acceleration and moves and they are dismissed in the same basket as reports from the National Enquirer. The problem is that all of this hard work and solid cocumentation can be washed away because the entire phenomena is ridiculed by the mainstream. I know for a fact that these things exist because I've seen them with my own eyes, but of course I know that I can't prove it to anyone else. However, the radar logs, the work of peer-scrutinized researchers and video documentation should be enough to convince even the staunchest skeptic that something is flying in our skies that appears to be beyond present day technology and that the government has withheld knowledge of it from the public. There is one thing that I suspect is behind the ultimate answer to the UFO mystery, and I base this assumptions on the avoidance of investigation and the attempts by organizations to keep the UFO phenomena in the realm of the absurd. -- whatever the true answer is behind the UFO mystery is one that would make enough of a change to the planet's way of living that it is in the best interests of those that oversee this planet, and those that operate the UFOs (if they indeed are two separate entities) that a public acknowledgement of the phenomena is not in either group's best interest Knowledge is power, and power is control over another. Once you realize this, it's hard to imagine that we're living in a world where it's too simple an answer to believe that no one in power cares about UFOs. They may know more than the researchers, or they may not, or the ones in power may own the UFO technology (but I have my doubts about that), but it's certainly not due to them not caring about UFOs. Your parents told you to look at something else just before they pulled the bandaid from off of your knee, didn't they? Misdirection, ignore the problem, pretend it doesn't exist and 95% of the population (and for those remaining 5%, 95% of their time they're too busy to think about it) won't care about what's right in front of their noses.

by **bvonahsen** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:10 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The problem is that all of this hard work and solid cocumentation can be washed away because the entire phenomena is ridiculed by the mainstream.<hr></blockquote> You are right about this. I had in mind publications that publish out and out foolishness. Like one I saw long ago that published a photo of some one's dog and claimed that it had been kidnaped by aliens. You could tell by the glowing eyes. I'm talking about that level of nonsense, that kind of mindless drivel is pretty common. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I know for a fact that these things exist because I've seen them with my own eyes<hr></blockquote> You've seen lights in the sky. Was it a UAV? A skunk works X plane prototype? Even if you saw a silvery object in daylight you still don't really know what it was. Some of them can do some amazing acrobatic moves. And here we are talking about objects or supposed real 3D objects. In the political world the evidence is even harder to come by. The MJ-12 document was a hoax. Other documents surrounding Kennedy or other political conspiracies are just as suspect. Even more so because there is more at stake than an X-plane. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>the work of peer-scrutinized researchers and video documentation<hr></blockquote> You can "peer-scrutinize" all you want but if the information is bad going in all you will ever get is garbage. And there are plenty out there who have an interest in muddying the water, our government trying to hide is stupidity, Pro racists, pro nazis, pro conspiracy theorists and con men making a quick and easy buck. All of them reduce the level of good reliable infomation, facts, to a rare commodity. BTW, where are the good uncontestable documents> The UFO or alien or 9-11 picture or video or report that nails the case shut? There are none. Oh sure, there are lots of claims, any moron with a web address can make a claim. I have looked into them and they don't impress me. Some did at first, but the more you look into these cases, UFO's 9-11, it doesn't matter, the less fact there is. It's all a web of conjecture and outright fabrication. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Knowledge is power, and power is control over another.<hr></blockquote> Oh I totally agree with you on this. Basically that is what I am bitching about. That and a dearth of facts. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Your parents told you to look at something else just before they pulled the bandaid from off of your knee, didn't they?<hr></blockquote> Yes and it was good advice. My parents had my best interest at heart. Others most likely do not. But if these things have truely been going on since.. 1235. If they've had advanced flight abilities since then, what hope do we have? If, on the other had, the political and other conspiracies are the work of men and women of our time. That they are covering up for their stupid and criminial behavior and that of their bosses, then there is a little more hope in my mind. I can imagine fighting "the military industrial complex" gone rogue. I can't even dream of fighting a force that had flight thousands of years ago like the legend of the nine (or other legends) would have us believe. We are really not that far apart. I am bitching because I can find no good facts. And I'm bitching because few... few people seem to take it seriously. Games get played by the debunkers and the believers. All people think it is about scoring debating points. I want the truth, even if I can't handle it. Especially so. It is frustrating. Chemtrails? Yup, something's up there. What it is I don't know, no one does. Maybe it's just radar chaff? UFO's? Same thing, maybe they are just military experiments? Conspiracy theory flavor of the week? Again, most are lies, the rest is, at best, inconclusive. Now... to bring this back on to the topic of this thread. James Bennett, he says: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>one of the first things you notice while following them is a fervent, almost religious level of belief. Through this zeal, and through a selective use of evidence, they are convinced as to the truth of their claims, no matter the evidence to the contrary.<hr></blockquote> Regardless of what other may think of him he gets it right here. That's a pretty good description of most conspiracy theorists, Feltzer in particular. The fact that James may be a card carrying member of the GOP doesn't change a thing.

by **chiggerbit** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:20 pm

one of the first things you notice while following them is a fervent, almost religious level of belief. Through this zeal, and through a selective use of evidence, they are convinced as to the truth of their claims, no matter the evidence to the contrary. Come on, bvon, the very same thing can be said of the conspiracy deniers and their religious fervor. Six of one, half dozen of the other. I don't care which side it is, it gets damned annoying to be told by either extreme that you have to believe what they believe or you're a nut or a villain. And frankly, it looks to me like the deniers are less likely to use any evidence at all, be it credible or not, and more likely to use "pack psychology" in order to influence listeners. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/17/06 8:27 pm

by **bvonahsen** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:13 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't care which side it is, it gets damned annoying to be told by either extreme that you have to believe what they believe or you're a nut or a villain. And frankly, it looks to me like the deniers are less likely to use any evidence at all, be it credible or not, and more likely to use "pack psychology" in order to influence listeners.<hr></blockquote> We are in total agreement here. But who is sticking up for the truth? Who follows the evidence no matter where it leads? It seems to me that everyone is busy picking the splinter out of everyone else's eyes and ignoring the log in their own. This Bennet has a point, conspiracies do tend to function like a religous belief for many. And you are right too. Right wingers of a certain ilk do tend to use retorical tactics just to win the argument. That's what Bennet is doing in the article quoted at the top. I only argee with one paragraph. And I've met guys like him, they don't know nearly as much as their egos would have us believe. Frankly, in my opinion, they're not that bright. On the other hand, we tend to be a little gulible, at least I know I am. I struggle with it all the time. Somewhere in all that dross is the truth.

by **Attack Ships on Fire** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:19 pm

I said, "I know for a fact that these things exist because I've seen them with my own eyes." bvonahsen replied, "You've seen lights in the sky. Was it a UAV? A skunk works X plane prototype? Even if you saw a silvery object in daylight you still don't really know what it was." I'm sorry...did I say somewhere in my original post that I knew for a fact precisely what any of the UFOs that I've seen were? Or did you just assume that because I say the word "UFO", you think I mean an alien spacecraft? And you're warning us about making assumptions... Look, let's suppose that some UFOs are some kind of extraterrestrial presence. Whether you think it's aliens, interdimensional aliens, angels, it doesn't matter for the purpose of this thought experiment, just that the owners of the UFOs are way ahead of humanity. You said: "I can't even dream of fighting a force that had flight thousands of years ago like the legend of the nine (or other legends) would have us believe." If we are to theorize that the UFO owners are beyond our technlological abilities and scientific understanding, or beyond our spiritual/metaphysical understanding of the universe, then yes, they would have absolute power over us. The very fact that they hide their presence from the mainstream means just one thing: they do not want to interfere with our society to the point that revealing their presence would alter its natual progression. If they didn't care, alien abductions (if they're legit) would happen when thousands of people congregated together, like a sports game or rock concert, where there's a better selection of subjects in closer proximity. If they didn't care about being photographed, they would be seen and photographed a lot more frequently than they already are; instead they zip by over our cities rapidly. If they didn't care about being spotted there would be events like the ones above Mexico City or what happened above Phoenix back in 1996 repeated every week across the globe above cities. You can figure out part of the UFO mystery if you stop waiting for the hard evidence to appear, such as who they are, who owns them, where they're from and so on. Instead, examine what *hasn't* happened: there hasn't been any alien invasions like ID4, Nazi stormtroopers haven't stepped outside of a flying saucer, people aren't being abducted in the middle of the workday or at sporting events, the governments of the world refuse to acknowledge the reality of these objects even though there is enough hard evidence to sway any doubt that something. Conversely, the world hasn't seen any sort of technology which allows for extremely rapid, completely silent aerial flight. So we're left with an abcense of evidence...but even with a good mystery novel the detective can deduce some of the mystery by what hasn't happened as of yet. If UFOs are real, and I am absolutely convinced that they are, then whomever or whatever is behind them doesn't want us to know about them or use them either. That in itself tells you something about the owners of these objects. The abduction part of it could be disinfo or bullshit. So could beamships from Zeta Reticuli, or Nazi Reich advanced craft, or US government black ops experiments, or interdimensional beings from Middle earth for that matter. What matters is that the actual UFO phenomena -- unidentified flying objects that appear to be well beyond our current level of sophistication and scientific understanding -- exists. That leaves 2 motives that I can imagine for the UFO owners: 1. They don't want Joe Sixpack to know that they're real for the time being. 2. They don't want Joe Sixpack to know that they're real forever, or for as long as they can continue the deception. I hope it's the first possibility, because if it's number two, and the world wakes up to the real existence of these things, what would the owners of the UFO do the day after? What happens when people around the world wake up -- either to the growing body of evidence, or a new encounter/event happens that cannot be easily debunked or ignored, or enough people like me have a sighting of something that they know isn't an airplane or a meteor or a sundog or the planet Venus? What happens when enough of the planet stop asking the phase 1 hard questions like "Are they aliens?" to the next level, such as "What do they want?", "Why are they watching us?", "How long have they been watching us?" What happens when those answers don't come but the sightings continue? I can't see this charade going on for more than another 100 years. Eventually technology is going to catch up -- we'll have internet access to non-military or government satellites that will record more weird events in space like the ones photographed by the NASA shuttle in orbit, or people that are claiming to be abductees will be able to have biosensors that can record their vitals and current GPS position 24/7, or enough CCTV camers will be in operation in major cities around the globe that daily sightings of these things crisscrossing the skies for 3 or 4 seconds each day will begin to pile up. We're already seeing the wave of this march of technology right now with iPods, cellphones that can surf the net, personal implant chips and so on. When technology catches up so that the common man can start to see how much nonsense some parts of everyday life make, the crush of the old facade will escalate further. Already you are seeing the panic screams of traditional media (newspapers, TV) as blogs, websites and personal video upload sites become more dominant. It's only going to get more intense as the years pass us by. So what happens when technology catches up to establishing the validity of UFOs? That's a good question, and I don't think we've begun to think about it. Maybe they have.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:22 am

I posted this in a previous UFO thread and incurred lots of hostility but in light of the previous posts in this thread I'm going to risk it again. UFOs seem to me to be just like the 'drama' of landing men on the moon...so what? And I don't mean that flippantly. Deadly seriously. "So What?" We are up to our asses in fascism with very mundane terrestrial problems because Nazi-like assholes are murdering, torturing, poisoning, starving, and looting us. And THAT is what we must address. UFOs aren't changing this in any way at all as far as I can see and are thus a distraction whether they are real or not. Again, quite simply- Whether they are real or not, we have to deal with Nazis. The Powers That Be would never tell us the truth about what they know due to their concerns about psychic destabilization or a sense of We Are All In This Together breaking out as peace. So they are glad to have us eat up bandwith and sowing confusion and division discussing something with literally no consequences in the ongoing Nazi onslaught against us.

by **Attack Ships on Fire** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:25 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote: "So they are glad to have us eat up bandwith and sowing confusion and division discussing something with literally no consequences in the ongoing Nazi onslaught against us." I agree that there seems to be some agency, or agencies, that profit from humanity keeping its focus on distractions. So might it also be possible that there exists an agency too that is at least partially responsible for some of the UFO activity witnessed by people, and that organization's purpose is to try and give pause to those of us that aren't thinking about issues outside of eat/sleep/watch TV/work, that there may be something else protruding into what human beings call our reality? One possibility that I imagine is that some UFOs are indeed operated by beings from another place outside of Earth. If they manifest themselves and reveal that there are larger issues going on outside of Earth, the social upheaval could hurt more than help us. Who stands to profit the most if advanced beings from another world introduced themselves to us? Would you and I profit from it? Would our lives be richer, deeper, more meaningful after the honeymoon of not being alone in the universe wore off? How many of us give pause each day and consider what it must be like to live as the average citizen in Sao Paolo, or Vladivostok, or a small village in Peru, or a rural farm in Mongolia? Now imagine that on a macro scale, with a hundred million different countries spread out across a million different planets, each with their own idology, currency, way of looking at life, death, religion, peace, war, famine, culture, sex, politics... Do you imagine the average citizen in what is arguably the richest country in the world (America) would benefit from that kind of culture shock? How long do you think it would be before the first lawsuit arose against an alien being, or the first sexual assault took place? Do you think people working in the oil business -- from the companies that deliver crude to refineries to the corporations that supply bags of chip, bottles of pop and donuts to the average convienience store -- would stop and wait how many years while the economics of a new energy replaced coal, gas and nuclear power? Do you think companies would wait before sending off their own faster than light vessels to the countless stars, oblivious to the possible alien viruses, organisms and bacteria that could wind their way back here? And what happens if humanity's own history record gets rewritten by the arrival of the aliens? What happens if they know for sure that we come from apes, which came from other apes, all the way back to bacteria? What happens if they tell us we're the product of God's handwriting? The true arrival of extraterrestrials would decimate -- and I mean that, *decimate* -- humanity and reshape it into something else entirely. You might think you're ready for it, but you're not. You're too dependant upon all of the things you've come to rely upon that make up the world and how it functions, even if you don't rely upon them directly. Try logging on to RigInt a couple of months after the aliens arrive to talk about them when you'll probably be more worried about finding food or gas for yourself since the stock market is now in freefall because free energy devices are coming but no one working in any energy related job knows if they will be earning a paycheck in a year from now. You try imagining the young people heading off to university or a skilled trades when that position may be as relevant as making tools from stones in five years time. What happens to the pharmalogical industries when advanced medical technology becomes available? Are you going to be shelling out $70 a prescription when the reverse engineered alien tech might solve your health issues if you wait around for a while? Nobody has really given this the thought that it deserves. All the UFOlogists get hung up on what's behind the mystery instead of examining the ramifications to us *if* the mystery is indeed a reality. And that might be the very solution as to why it *must* remain a mystery. If some of the UFOs are the vessels of ETs, then the way that they have been acting makes perfect sense with a planned, thought out campaign to build a growing presence in a world where the majority of its population doesn't care about the big picture. But if it's really happening like that, it will take generations for it to fully unveil. I can't see society changing too greatly unless it happens over centuries, like 5 or closer to 10. If UFOs have been here for thousands of years, what's another 1,000 years to them? Face it people: there may have been humans like us that sat and wondered about what is over the horizon 200, 500, or a thousand years ago -- but they died never knowing what the moon truly was, or that there are seven continents, or that tiny organisms that you can't even see can kill you. Step back and the big picture is easy to see when you live in the future, but when you're a part of the flow of history unveiling you can't see the forest from the trees. So, in a long answer way Hugh, understanding the UFO mystery may indeed be a key component to understanding *why* governments don't care about understanding what these things are, at least publically. And if you stand to believe that there are secret cabals that control the world, you better believe that controlling the UFO knowledge base would a key part of their agenda. So, in a very fucked up way, maintaining a conspiracy of silence may be the only way that the world you enjoy today remains the same kind of world tomorrow. Enough of the evidence is there, sure it's circumstantial and as such you just never know, but *it is there* and it's *growing* -- so maybe that's enough that the powers that be give us to let those of us wondering about the mystery know of its reality. However, that's all we will ever have. You will never get to see a space alien or find out if they believe in God and one day cancer may kill you when the aliens' advanced technology could save you but you get to buy gas and own a vehicle and make mortgage payments and raise children and hate other cultures if you wish to do so. Take a time machine and pluck a caveman from out of the year 15,000 BC and stick him in the modern day. Now, pluck the entire caveman race from 15,000 BC and stick them in modern day. I'm betting that there's a big difference in what happens between the two examples. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=attackshipsonfire>Attack Ships on Fire</A> at: 9/18/06 1:38 am

by **bvonahsen** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:01 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Whether they are real or not, we have to deal with Nazis.<hr></blockquote> Dead on Hugh, I can't believe you caught any flack for that. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>if you stand to believe that there are secret cabals that control the world, you better believe that controlling the UFO knowledge base would a key part of their agenda.<hr></blockquote> Of course, we now know that there have always been sociopaths, It seems to me a lot of history is wrapped up in the doings of that bunch. That is, I think one can understand history as the battlefield of sociopaths. There was a show by Gene Roddenberry some time ago, I'm forgetting the name but it did feature typical grey-like aliens and their impact on society. I don't think it would fall apart quite like you think, maybe some but as long as they didn't hand out advanced weapons to everyone things would remain pretty stable. I do agree though that economically this world couldn't handle it. We still have way too many living hand to mouth and dying of diseases we could prevent. I think there ought to be one world government someday, I just wish it didn't have to go down the way it seems to be. Given the history of mankind I kind of doubt there's any other way. That is, I'd lay odds that we will be as bloody and as vicious as we have always been. BTW, is there such a thing as "best evidence"? Is there a compendium or web site or a wiki or..... something like that?

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