THELEMA

by **Homeless Halo** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:48 am

I am "formally" trained. But not officially trained. I've been self teaching since childhood, but only in somewhat more recent times has my networking allowed me to find anyone worth learning from. I am currently being taught, teaching, and exchanging information with a number of Thelemites and/or Thelemic groups in the greater Detroit area. Paranormal powers may includer farsight, telekinesis, telepathy, "magic", channelling, and the "super human" feats that come with both drug abuse and certain psycho conditioning that comes with assassin's training(like esoteric Ninpo, which I also like) I'm also not strictly a Thelemite, although I contain the entire Thelemic doctrine as taught/believed by my peers and collaborators. There are other things here, as it leaves lots of room. (Thelema boils down to you believing you are in charge of you and that it would be best for you to do your own will and not that of others, and that this is true for everyone else as well) The Black Brotherhood always forgets the "everyone else as well" part and so easily attaches Thelema to things like "esoteric" Straussian neo-conservatism (Paul Wolfowitz) or "Illuminized" philosophies. The difference between Thelema and the Philosophical Luciferians and other mostly harmless Illuminists is that they believe they must enlighten the masses, and Thelemites believe that the masses must enlighten themselves.

by **jenz** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:05 am

biao - so sorry to hear this. hope you can get locks changed and security upgraded, and that your friend is ok. HH. I don't know how to say this, it is clear that you are sincere, and thoughtful about this, but there is just so much which connects the 2 things discussed here, so anyone non abusive involved in this system of belief I would want to say, at least be careful, and 2ndly that surely, opportunities exist to get involved in a concrete way with combatting r.a.

by **biaothanatoi** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:32 am

> Children are ritually abused based on misinterpretations and/or misrepresentations of most faiths/worldviews if not all of them. I'm not sure you realise how much succor RA perps have found in Crowley. The impact of his writings can be seen through a variety of ritually abusive cults, regardless of their nominal 'religious' framework. Have you ever considered that you don't know the whole story here? That you don't have a privileged vantage point simply by being a member of the 'initiated'? That there are voices outside Thelema that you might do well to listen to? > My grievance is that it seems that any/all occultists are instantly equated with all sorts of vile activities By whom, Daniel? Ignorant Christian fundamentalists with their own agenda? Then please go grind your ax in their backyard. Lumping together everyone that disagrees with you into one big mass is a convenient but transparent way of innoculating yourself against criticism (or, for that matter, self-reflection). > What I'm saying is that in effect, RA is the opposite of Thelema goals, in its own definitions No, just your branch of the OTO, and there are several groups that lay claim to that name, and even more that practice their interpretation of Thelema. There is a very real argument to be made that Alistair Crowley was involved in child abuse and human sacrifice, based on primary documents from his lifetime, including his diaries. He was charged with as much in Sicily. You might see that as evidence of 'religious persecution', but I am involved in a situation in which children are being killed in the context of Thelemic rituals, and I don't have the luxury of dismissing that kind of historical evidence outright. Have you ever considered that the mainstream OTO *is* the corruption of Crowley's doctrines? That you may be the unwitting camouflage for something else? Don't you think that might be the sort of joke that Crowley might have played?

by **Dreams End** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:42 am

I am not going to post much here right now. I did encourage HH to start this thread, primarily because it had taken over a thread I started and was not really on topic. Also, no one can accuse HH of having a HIDDEN agenda here. He is being pretty forthright. The only thing I'm going to say is that this elitist worldview itself is anathema to me. I mean exactly the way HH defines it. "virtue of selfishness" etc. By the way HH, do you know who originated that phrase? Ayn Rand's objectivism is nothing if not the worship of capitalism. And many simply are not strong. Children are not strong. Sick people are not strong. The poor, trapped in the struggle for daily survival are not strong (in the sense of having a chance at competing for this elite status...we know the poor can be strong collectively and the fact that we enjoy a 40 hour workweek, for example, is proof of that.) And this emphasis on "will". It just has to many echoes of Nietsche and Hitler for my taste. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Yep...no matter the official power structure's relationship to "true" Crowley or "false" Crowley...I am pretty sure they agree with that phrase. Let the ignorant masses fend for themselves. We are the enlightened ones. We deserve our power and wealth because our will is strong. Bah. Twaddle.

by **prunesquallori** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:05 pm

Can any Thelemites explain why they are drawn to Crowley rather than any of the traditional spiritual studies? <a href="http://www.religioperennis.org/">www.religioperennis.org/</a> I cannot see the advantage of pursuing Crowley's syncretic efforts over studying the original source texts of alchemists and mystics?

by **Homeless Halo** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:33 pm

The advantages in studying Crow's systems as opposed to the traditional western esoteric elements is more a matter of historical perspective and offers less benefits in that sense today, than it did yesterday. This is to say, that Crow's systems interprets western occultism through the lens of Sumer. This is primarily important because knowledge of Sumer did not exist to objectively validate Crow's belief system until many years after he died. The point is, either he had actual information, or he somehow managed to *recreate* a belief system out of thin air. These belief systems would now be possible to cut out of whole cloth, but in 1904, they were not. I agree that there were indeed allegations of all sorts of wrongdoing in Sicily, however, even the MSM at the time avoided this. All the accusations were made by tabloid press agents, and there were other allegations besides. You may choose to rely on outlets like the weekly world news for information, I do not. Secondly, I'm of the opinion that in Cefalu, where Crow was widely harrassed by the PTB, that had any evidence existed of his criminal activities, they would have removed him. If the tabloid press had said anything more than that there "were rumors of a child missing", perhaps, if they knew for sure that a child had been missing, I'd more inclined to assume it wasn't just another smear directed at old crow. ------- Have you ever considered that you don't know the whole story here? That you don't have a privileged vantage point simply by being a member of the 'initiated'? That there are voices outside Thelema that you might do well to listen to? ------- Yes. Have you? I find it remarkable that we've longed to attach Crow to all sorts of the practices considered distasteful by the powerful modern members representing his religion. This would be like blaming Jesus because Catholic priests are statistically three times as likely to abuse children as non priests. Everyone knows this, but never have I been warned of the dangers of catholic practices. Where in Crow's diaries does it say he abused children? (As an owner of copies of them, I'm very interested in your answer) You'll have to back up your assertion there, but I'm pretty sure you can't, as it seems that all of your information is secondhand here. _________ Have you ever considered that the mainstream OTO *is* the corruption of Crowley's doctrines? That you may be the unwitting camouflage for something else? Don't you think that might be the sort of joke that Crowley might have played? _________ Indeed I have, and after rigorous examination of the evidence I've concluded that there is nothing there worth discrediting crowley with, although there are a large number of his followers who are rather unsavory. I find it telling that He himself warned against these practices and that his writings could be abused in such ways. Why should he do that? Why should he have attempted to extract the elements that current rule his religion (as a matter of public record) if he had some secret agenda to empower those same people? Why didn't he get rich from his associations with the PTB as his "fallen" followers have since his death? (he died in near poverty, one of the hallmarks of a successful magician, by traditional standards) Insofar as the elitist worldview goes, I think I've explained it as best I can. I can tell you, that since adopting it, I've become a nicer person than I was as a Christian youth. I agree that not everyone is strong. Thelema is about creating strength in people. As a "perrenial philosophy" its elitism cannot be compared to either Nazism, though Crow considered it, but eventually fought against the Nazis and their occultists, even being placed on the SS watch list before WW2, nor Neitzsche, although Nietzshce ALMOST created an amoralist worldview. The primary difference is that as a PP, Thelema agrees with various interpretations of Eastern Mysticisms, that is, that all things are ONE. We have one soul, one body. Elitism has a different context with this understanding. If you can grasp it. "every man and every woman is a star" (You don't really pay attention to me, anyway, as I've stated that I'm not in the OTO, not any branch of it, as even during Crow's lifetime it represents only a small portion of his teachings, mostly sexual alchemy)

by **banned** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:42 pm

...we've talked alot about THELEMA, but what about LOUIESE?

by **Homeless Halo** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:57 pm

Louise is one of our prophets. But then again, so is Theodore Geisel. Like RAW or Terrence McKenna. (Or Joshua Norton, for our crossover Discordians)

by **banned** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:21 pm

...from the Discordian Society. Hail Eris! Fnord. And don't forget Bob--you can never have enough slack.

by **Homeless Halo** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:26 pm

Probably half the Thelemites I know are former/current Discordians. Probably 3/4 are future Discordians... About 1/3 of them are former Wiccans. Which is the one thing I find really funny in all of this previous discussion on the evils of Crow. Wicca is an invented Thelemic religion, but no one ever accuses them of eating babies as doctine. Well, except really inane fundamentalists. So, how come Wicca gets a free pass when a cavity search is standard for any of Crow's other projects?

by **Dreams End** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:34 pm

maybe it's the "an ye harm none" at the beginning of the creed.

by **Homeless Halo** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:09 pm

But the "an ye harm none" is implied in the REST of Thelema's creed. Overlooked by both the LHP and the accussers of Crowley. "Love is the Law, Love under Will" (or using QBL could turn it Will is the Law, Will under Love, THELEMA = AGAPE, which means you can switch them). So Do as you Love shall be the whole of the Law. A good QBL analysis by a "former" Thelemite who had a personall falling out with old Crow is included in Regardie's "Eye in the Pyramid". He's certainly not an apologist, especially as regards Crow's personal flaws, which were many, but he is able to clearly explain how Crow's words would be interpreted by any normal occult student, therefore how they should, theoretically, be practiced by Thelema itself. the "an ye harm none" is Gardner's interpretation of Crow's teachings, in the simplest form he could explain them. Keep this is mind. Rememer, after WW2's occult wars were over, following Crow's death, and some other anomalous activities in New Mexico at the time, that many of the same German occultists denounced by Crow during his lifetime ended up in positions that directly and/or indirectly controlled A.C's organizations. That is, his stated enemies now own the official fountains of his teachings. You should always remember this, since it is part of history as well, when attempting to discern Crow's occult teachings from the many pretenders. Unfortunately, these same people also have legal rights (because of US courts' being in their pockets) to all of his writings, and are careful to only disseminate "certain" of his teachings. Fortunately, most of his works were existant in hard copy long before his death, and so can still be accessed by those who wish to dig deeper. The internet has been an invaluable tool for this, in modern times. My point was that Wicca is Thelema, there is no distinction besides the language used to express these terms, and Gardenian witchcraft also teachings everything neccessary to decode the old style more "esoteric" mainstream elements of Thelema. That is, a basic understanding of Judaic mysticism and prophetic cycles coupled with basic numerology and a method of interpretting Tarot. Essentially its a more involved method of Freemasonry that attempts to fulfill FM's promise while making it both difficult to be corrupt and easy to spot corruption. I have personally met just under a thousand Thelemites of good repute who are not sanctioned by the existing "institutions" maintained by the US gvt. I am aware that most of these individuals are also engaged in group activities such that the number of non-sanctioned Thelemites is far larger than the "official" members of these organizations. This should lead to the conclusion that the "Caliphate" its satraps and the various LHP reactionary organizations DO NOT represent the mainline teaching regardless of what they would like to pretend. You empower these monsters by discouraging these "underground" Thelemites from speaking out with what information they have. This allows many constructive dialogues to be lost, and lets the criminals go free. Child abuse is a symptom of mental illness, not occult knowledge. This should not be tolerated by either occultists nor members of traditional religions. In the end it does not matter if you believe that Thelemites as a whole are not evil, and that our worldview is philosophically sound (although I do). What matters it that you are the enemy of my enemy, and therefore me and my friends consider you OUR friend. We will aid you in whatever method we can, as you will. Know your enemy, and know his enemies. As the Prophet spoke: "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Matt 10:16 Sh_t! Love = Law Daniel

by **jenz** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:55 am

HH you stated in your post dated 10/12/05/1.22am that you would like to intelligently communicate with persons who are interested in uncovering those who abuse your stated world view (in order ) to abuse children .. and further that this is a commandment. To leave aside the doctrinal questions, what practical measures have been taken by the group or groups you associate with to achieve this aim? and if it is too problematic to answer this, can you say what it is that you would want to discuss with those of us who are trying in whatever small ways to frustrate perpetrators, irrespective of the belief system (if any) which they have colonised as a prop for abuse? Incidentally, you later say that child abuse is a symptom of mental illness - in broad terms maybe, but the organised gangs have a very high level of functioning and integrating with the rest of the world which is not a usual corollary of mental illness. Evil is the term I prefer, so as not to confuse what they do with behaviour of those deranged by, for example, chemical imbalances in the brain - most of whom harm no-one. (I differentiate between the deliberate choice to harm the helpless and unwitting harm of unsocial "madness", knowing that its a rule of thumb differentiation, subject to modification in individual cases.) Or is the aim of this thread not to find practical measures of progress to show up the activities of criminals, but to say "don't blame us, we're clean" . If this is the aim - ignore the forgoing. No point in discussing the obvious fact that not all of any given group, organisation or bunch of believers are likely to be involved in criminal activities - if they were, such groups would lose their usefulness as cover. And no intelligent way of ignoring the evidence of the association with Crowley writings and abusers. You have quoted words which have been re-iterated to me by survivors who have absolutely no idea where they originate from. (As indeed they sometimes quote or more usually misquote, biblical writings )

by **Homeless Halo** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:21 pm

I will attempt to be as forthcoming and concise as is possible to be at once in my replies to your enquires. Note, that the nature of compartmentalization in organizations such as those I've referred to above, make some of your questions unanswerable, at least in specific terms. _______ To leave aside the doctrinal questions, what practical measures have been taken by the group or groups you associate with to achieve this aim? and if it is too problematic to answer this, can you say what it is that you would want to discuss with those of us who are trying in whatever small ways to frustrate perpetrators, irrespective of the belief system (if any) which they have colonised as a prop for abuse? _______ Of course the most obvious practical measure that could be taken by any comparmentalized group would be steps to ensure that one's own groups should be as constrained as possible from committing and assisting in the coverup of such activities. In this vein, we have been striving for greater communications between the various non-official (read: underground) covens and cabals in our area (metro Detroit) and extending this sphere of communication to contacts with groups in various other places. We have formulated links with groups in, for example, San Fransisco, Manhattan, Columbus OH, Windsor Ontario, New Mexico, Texas, Florida, and with a variety of smaller cabals ("cells") in places as distant from us as Austrailia and Japan. We see the primary obstacle to all of our goals (including the removal of neerdowells) is our inability to communicate directly outside of the "official" channels. The focus of the past several years, and probably the next several years has been towards opening lines of communication. This allows us to watch each other, and to trade information on the "other" occult groups in our areas. In the longer term, after we are sufficiently, implanted, we have ever intention of "acquiring" several of the non-evil groups, for our own purposes, when we emerge from underground, perhaps ten years from now. Secondly, as some of us are more open to the ideas of RA (some having firsthand experience in these matters), we have begun infiltration of a large number of organizations that we know, or suspect of involvement in such activities. This is all I am willing to say on this particular subject as of yet, except that the end goals are the gathering of intelligence and movements towards eventual prosecutions. As a secondary goal, and one likely not as easily acceptable to non-occultists in the investigation and "removal" of the energies that the black lodges are formulating with their activities. Precise knowledge of their activities in an esoteric sense, gives one the tools required to "fight fire with fire", so to speak. Our research is spread uniformly, as much as we are able to share it, however our practices are not. There are many methods for investigation and action in the occult world and the majority of us practice our art as "double blind", like military RV exercises, as we have found them to be more successful this way. As such, it is not possible (literally) for me to discuss the contents of the various "magickal" counteroffensives underway. Suffice it for me to say, that we are somewhat confident that our process has already begun to achieve the desired effects. In the context of open dialogue, it is the wish of myself, at least, and of some of those with whom I am in contact, to derive, as closely as possible, the exact practices and influences of these groups(beyond their locations and memberships), in order that we may be more efficient in our efforts to counteract their activities and their goals. As to the rest of your statements: I will agree on the ability, apparent, of these "individuals" to integrate their practices with a "normal" appearances and with normal politicial and financial goals. However, I would be loathe to retreat from my assessment of their mental state, as a Psychologist in training (a few more years). There are many cases of "serial" killers and rapists, besides child abusers, who appear completely "normal" to the untrained eye, but upon close inspection will be found to be absolutely filled with madness, usually unrestrained egoism, to the point of megalomaniacal activities. It should also be noted that it is often the case that the "public" face, the known members of such organizations have been carefully programmed themselves to interact with the public, and we should be careful to distinguish between a programmed "normalcy" and actual healty mentalities. This is not to say that there are not those who are entirely capable of making logical choices, and who choose the illogical on purpose, just that these individuals are statistically rare, and are the exception to the rule. (the rule being that it is physiologically "abnormal" to obtain pleasure from the harming of others or to be sexually attracted to parties that do not exhibit secondary sex characteristics, i.e. children) I admit that one of my goals in disclosing my beliefs in this place and time is for the benefit of myself and my peers who, obviously one would assume, should not like our own activities to be equated with such derrangement and illogic. However, this in itself, is consider a precondition of meaningful dialogue, as it would be difficult to establish an alliance with those who would view myself and my kind as their natural enemies. I have no issue with the connections supposed between "Crowley's writing and abusers", moreso with the token acceptance of this as an accurrate assessment of Crow's attitudes towards reality. (I find it hard to imagine Crow being involved in child sacrafice when he once called an abortion attempt by his wife a "crime against the Holy Spirit"--words that shock coming from Crow's pen) Indeed, anyone who has studied Satanism in general, even apart from RA will find a lot of clinging to (parts) of Crowley's writings, along with lyrics from Swedish Metal Bands and quotations from the Carny leader of the (atheist) COS. Along with, as you say, often a misunderstanding of biblical scriptures besides(LA county alone has had over 200 Catholic priests accused of sexual abuse since 1979). Further investigations along these lines should hopefully contribute to many goals, that is, our personal goal, the revivification of the occult mainsteam and its removal from under the "Illuminist" umbrella, along with goals we share with many, including the targetting and removal of a number of unsavory creatures who have used all of our religions as covers for their attrocities and agendas for FAR too long. My own interest in the removal of debased abusers from the mainline occult groups is perhaps of a stronger primacy than it is for other members of our "organizations", that is, not all of them are affected as strongly by such things, nor do all of them accept the evidence for these practices at face value. (This is one of my own goals, inside our organizations, is to make people more aware of how their own doctrines can be misapplied to the detriment of others) For me, this conflict is extremely personal. I do not wish to elaborate further on this. Love is the Law, SHCR, 8* OAO

by **jenz** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:15 pm

don't think I can comment on the practical steps you outline for determining if any of the groups you know of or associate with are involved at all in ra, because. obviously, the detail is what counts and the detail is also what cannot be stated but the second part of my enquiry - what you were hoping to get from discussion, seems to be info on their practices? or did I misunderstand that part?

THELEMA

heyjt

crowley

Maybe not

Re: Maybe not

Crowley vs. Tradition

Crow

I have to say this...

Banned:

I have my Pope card....

hm

Re: hm

indeed.

removing perpetrators

Re: Perps

dialogue

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