Billy Graham--Evangelist/Satanist? (the Oxnam connection)

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Re: Billy Graham, etc.

Postby NewKid » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:19 am

Page 8 on that thread has the Robertson/Time pic, but here's the Michael W. Smith thread.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:_PtjHBnyo1wJ:p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage%3FtopicID%3D4414.topic+%22rigorous+intuition%22+%22michael+w.+smith%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3" target="top">72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:_PtjHBnyo1wJ:p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage%3FtopicID%3D4414.topic+%22rigorous+intuition%22+%22michael+w.+smith%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>I don't recall the other one. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Billy Graham, etc.

Postby Dreams End » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:58 am

That's a cached page and so I can't get the other pages to come up. but I think that's the one...and he mentioned the Robertson pic but I think this is the one where we got into detail on it. I can't figure out where on earth it is...I looked through several categories.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Billy Graham, etc.

Postby NewKid » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:35 am

Yeah, I don't know. The Michael Smith thread came up 'error deleted' altogether on a main google search, and so all I could get was cached page 1. I didn't see anything on a Robertson search. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Billy Graham, etc.

Postby rothbardian » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:06 am

DE--<br><br>I quoted Springmeier somewhat at length, simply to give a little context. I wanted the readers to think along with me a little bit. In other words, since Springmeier seems to have gotten his information right about Oxnam, what might that indicate about some of the other mindboggling things he is claiming right there in the same context? I wanted the reader to consider along with me as to what this might indicate about the covert identities of other religious VIP's that he mentions. <br><br>It's really quite simple. I don't see how an intelligent guy like you needed me to explain that just now. I'm just providing some context to the quote in question. <br><br>Your quote: <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"...you do bring that up when things aren't going your way." </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Man, that's unfair...and you've got it backwards. I have complained when I was in the middle of trying to have a substantive discussion and somebody interjects with FreeRepublic-style sophomoric stuff. I have no need to create, as you are describing it, some sort of complaint tangent. I'm eager to get down to business. Don't understand that kind of potshot. <br><br>Another quote: <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Being black, last I checked, is not a belief system ..."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> Any person, whether it regards their ethnicity or religious beliefs... is still subject to having possibly an unfounded paranoia or persecution complex. But stereotypical liberalism being the way it is, ONLY the Christian would get slapped with this <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"get your finger off the button"</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> remark. Like I said, I'll be waiting for you to try that on the black guy. <br><br>Quote: <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Fitz. And why his information is fairly suspect to me." </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> I don't know if there is a misunderstanding here but my impression is you have accused me nine ways from Sunday...of trying to stealthily slip in my "Illuminati" agenda. <br><br>So when I illustrate the craziness of approaching discussions in that way, you say you're not talking about me? Here's your own quote again from your other post: <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"...stop playing that game. You have pushed the Illuminati theme before..</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->." (?)<br><br>Anyway, as I said..I'm not sure what the fuss is about here. There has been plenty of evidence of evil sinister goings-on within the Masons. What is the argument about here? I don't even know. There's a lot of stuff going on at this board that is best described as <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>'eternal paralysis by analysis'</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. <br><br>Again, I'm not sure why you and others have such an allergic reaction to the idea that there are evil schemes to take over the world. It's weird because I can find any number of people here who recognize that Bush and Gang are trying to take over. But if somebody simply points out the possible mechanics ("<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I think they have these secretive ways, secretive schemes and secret groups</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->")...oh the wailing and gnashing of teeth. I don't get it. <br><br>There is a time and a place for 'working conclusions' even in the absence of absolute scientific proof, complete with DNA tests, blood samples and documented, videotaped evidence. In a huge array of 'real world' scenarios you don't have the luxury of holding out for such things. The enemy is moving in. At some point it's time to form some kind of hypothesis, it seems to me.<br><br><br>I'm going to re-post a few thoughts about Springmeier's 'bank robbery' problems that I had posted elsewhere previously.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Springmeier railroaded?

Postby rothbardian » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:51 am

To my mind, Cisco Wheeler has made a strong case in showing how the media deliberately distorted the facts regarding Springmeier's bankrobbery case.<br><br>When I got through reading the details about these distortions in the media, the obvious question is: Why would they be distorting facts other than to cover up...and what are they covering up...<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>other than the fact that he didn't rob a bank?</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>I'm not saying I know exactly who the good guys and bad guys are, all the time. But this 'bank robbery' thing and the list of charges that were brought against Springmeier, and the media smear, all went a long way to convincing me he is being done in by the PTB.<br><br><br>THE ARMY OF GOD<br><br>One of the more glaring indications of smear was the media's associating him with this clunky "Army of God" outfit.<br><br>Springmeier is so utterly non-left/non-right...the idea that he would join this backwoods, teeth-missing, ultra right-wing group, is laughable. <br><br>Springmeier, for example, is completely aware of the centuries-old PTB scams in creating huge wars and 'false flag' atrocities. In fact, he has been one of the leaders in exposing that kind of thing and many of the details behind these PTB maneuvers.<br><br>If you go over to the "Army of God" website, their big celebrity, Eric Rudolph (the guy who bombed the Atlanta Olympics and a couple of abortion clinics), displays a completely uninformed and utterly clunky "6th grade history class" grasp of world history...an unadulterated "FoxNews" worldview. A couple of quotes from Rudolph: <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"And as the planes crashing into the building on 9/11 showed clearly, the Western world will once again be called to the barricades."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"The Koran's teachings were never able to change this practice, and the failure of Westerners to understand this is why we are perplexed by the widespread support in the Arab world for such actions as 9/11 or suicide bombers that blow themselves up in crowded discos"</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"It takes an incident like 9/11 to breach this cocoon of safety surrounding people's existence, confronting them with a reality their ancestors had to deal with on a daily basis."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br><br>But because Springmeier has associated with 'known' Christians and is alleged to own a Bible (the horror!) there is a tendency on the part of some to view him negatively, and to quickly sign on to a PTB media smear job. That irks me. I don't care if somebody is Christian, Hebrew, Buddhist or Dolphin...I just want the truth and the facts.<br><br><br><br>I don't buy everything Springmeier says but MUCH of his stuff has been corroborated or is corroborative in nature.<br><br>So...whether he left a wife, and/or remarried another woman (Wheeler), I find it rather curious to observe (as I have) left-leaning individuals eagerly signing on to this "Biblical morality"-oriented denunciation of Spingmeier's personal problems, on the part of this fundamentalist pastor. <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.eaec.org/expose/FritzSpringmeier1.htm">www.eaec.org/expose/Fritz...meier1.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Since when would secular liberals discredit someone over whether they were married two times, six times, or twelve times? There's a bit of political motive peeking out, I believe.<br><br>Springmeier may in fact, even be MPD/DID himself, for all I know...but we know there are people just like that who, in the middle of their chaotic DID-overshadowed lives, are trying heroically to strike a blow.<br><br>I just don't want to see a premature dismissal of the guy. I'm very haunted by the fact that he appears to have been 'put away', thrown in prison by the higher powers, for speaking out. <br><br>Anyway, here is an excerpt from Wheeler's article detailing the pretty strong indications of fudging from the media:<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>TONY HUNTINGTON--The Missing Link</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Conspicuously absent from the report is any mention of Tony Huntington, on whose mother's property all of the "evidence" used in KATU's report was found. Huntington and Bateman (Bateman rented a room in an out-building on the property) had been friends since childhood and lived on Huntington's mother's property. For five months after the Feds raided his place, Huntington lived with the knowledge that the illegal arsenal and 50 plant pot grow (complete with power diversion) would net him an approximately 120 year sentence.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.parapolitics.info/KATUrebutt/huntington.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Thus, five months after authorities raided his house, Huntington decided to finger Fritz for the Damascus Key Bank robbery in 1997 in exchange for leniency. Although KATU's report on Fritz mentions Bateman as one of the Key Bank robbers, missing is the fact that as prosecution's principal witness against Fritz--Huntington perjured himself on the stand by admitting to having taken an active role in the robbery on the day of the robbery. Huntington received a paltry 3 ½ years for his testimony against Fritz. <br><br>Another of Huntington's lies which was not revealed in the courtroom, but was contained within the discovery paperwork for the case, is that Fritz used the robbery funds to finance a trip to Japan to promote his "Bloodlines of the Illuminati" book. When Reverend Izumi Koishi heard of this allegation he made two unsuccessful attempts to fly to Portland from Japan at his own expense, in order to appear in court to refute Huntington's assertion with cold, hard evidence. Sadly, the trial date kept moving around, so that Reverend Koishi lost money on two sets of non-refundable flight tickets. Fritz' former attorneys kept waffling on the decision of whether to let Koishi testify. However, before the third attempt was made by Koishi to appear, Fritz' attorneys decided not to let Koishi testify. <br><br>After the guilty verdict was handed down, Reverend Koishi then flew in to offer support. He also brought the evidence that he would have shown in court--a receipt for a Citibank draft in the amount of $2,000 USD <br><br>made out to Fritz so that he could give a talk about "Bloodlines of the Illuminati", which consequently got published in Japanese. Fritz' Japanese supporter's paid full perdiem on Fritz' visit. Not only did Fritz not have to spend one penny of his own from the moment he boarded the plane to go over there, he received a $2,000 fee for speaking. <br><br>OTHER ALLEGATIONS AGAINST SPRINGMEIER: <br><br>"Springmeier, a white separatist known for his anti-government writings..." <br><br>FACT: Fritz has never been a white separatist and, in fact, has a "rainbow coalition" of friends and supporters. His writings can be characterised as exposing the illuminati and anti-corrupt government. <br><br><br>"ultra right wing extremist Fritz Springmeier." <br><br>FACT: Fritz is neither left wing or right wing. "Ultra right wing extremist", "white separatist", these are smear labels used by lazy journalists. <br><br><br><br>From Video-"Fritz Springmeier considered himself a member of a loose-knit group known as the Army of God. Experts on US hate groups say the Army of God is a loose-knit group with no formal membership rolls."<br><br><br>FACT: First of all, notice that the above statement contains built in deniability--"loose-knit group" and "no formal membership rolls". These two qualifiers mean that they have absolutely no proof that Fritz belongs to the Army of God. Moreover, Fritz has never considered himself a member of the Army of God and every longterm friend of Fritz' that I have asked about this, not only denied it, but laughed at the thought of it. <br><br><br>In summation, the entire piece was done to smear Fritz and to ruin his chances for a fair retrial. Finally, while KATU is correct in stating that Fritz has been critical of mainstream media, he would never plot to bomb their studio. The mainstream media should look to themselves as the possible source of their own destruction. <br><br>Fritz and I will continue to seek justice and to vindicate his innocence. We look forward to the appeals.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>http://www.parapolitics.info/KATUrebutt/rebuttal.htm <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rothbardian>rothbardian</A> at: 9/1/06 3:13 am<br></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby Dreams End » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:36 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So...whether he left a wife, and/or remarried another woman (Wheeler)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Roth, I will concede that a setup is certainly possible. But this:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So...whether he left a wife, and/or remarried another woman (Wheeler)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>is not the issue. the issue is one of "rescuers" who end up banging their rescuees. Now "liberals" (whatever you mean when you say that) do take a little delight when those who call THEM degenerate for sex outside of marriage or whatever, get caught with their hand in that particular cookie jar. But for me, the Fritz/Wheeler phenomenon is very similar to the Phillips/O'Brien phenomenon, though in the latter case, Phillips overtly claims some kind of intelligence program which just happened to include how to "deprogram" mc victims. (The logical conclusion is, if he's not just full of b.s., that he must have worked in some program involving the programming of mc victims....I can believe he was a spook because he just looks too much like Robert Culp, but I guess that isn't really evidence.)<br><br>Given what programming does to these women, getting involved in a sexual relationship...especially one under false pretenses seems a little ethically suspect, doesn't it?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby rothbardian » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:03 pm

DE--<br><br>I don't know where you're getting information that Springmeier is using Wheeler for unethical purposes. Maybe you have indications? (You don't make a distinction between "married" and "banging"?)<br><br>Of far greater interest to me is the stampede of people away from Springmeier and his voluminous writings. There's lots of interesting stuff there. Also of interest is the rush to sign on to the media's and the judicial system's apparent hatchet job on Springmeier.<br><br>As I said-- my opinion is the media's portrayal of Springmeier being a part of "Army of God" is laughable. And that just the tip of the 'railroading' iceberg, IMO.<br><br>And if there IS a PTB smear job going on, why wouldn't that significantly add to the interest in what Springmeier has to say...especially when one recalls this amazing Oxnam 'confirmation'.<br><br>But alas...there is studious disinterest in Springmeier. His alleged 'research information' and resulting "apocalyptic" worldview parallels too closely with the Bible 'endtime' scenarios, and there is huge reluctance on the part of some folks to view that as credible (IMO). <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:12 pm

I got it from Fritz's wife. Posted on a website of a ministry that used to support him.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.eaec.org/expose/FritzSpringmeier1.htm">www.eaec.org/expose/FritzSpringmeier1.htm</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>I really don't make this stuff up, Roth. Always happy to provide validation..and always legitimate to ask for it.<br><br>Read the whole thing (his wife's letter toward the bottom) and see what you think. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby rothbardian » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:43 am

DE--<br><br>I have read that all long ago. I see absolutely nothing in there other than a divorce-type controversy. (?)<br><br>Meanwhile, this "Army of God" baloney from the media should be viewed as a significant and ominous indicator (especially in conjunction with the kind of corroboration Springmeier keeps producing). <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby Dreams End » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:05 am

In case others have interest:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>THE LETTER FROM MRS. GAIL SPRINGMEIER<br><br>Written to Texe Marrs, Director<br>Power of Prophecy Ministry<br>1708 Patterson Road, Austin, Texas 78733<br><br>Dear Texe and Secretaries,<br><br>This last month has been a confusing time in the life of this family. I’ve acted in a way that seemed expedient for the safety of my children and myself. Texe, you and your staff members have always been very kind, patient, and polite during my interactions with you, and I want to give all of you a personal explanation as to why our phone suddenly was changed to an unlisted number, that you could no longer reach us. I also want to give you my personal apology for not informing you long ago about my husband’s moral failings, his abandonment of his family, and the major problem he has with authority.<br><br>For the past 16 months Fritz has lived outside our family. I can count on two hands the number of times that he has spent the night in our home during that time. He has basically been using his home as an office. He has been "de-programming and protecting" this Satanically-ritually abused woman, who has Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). Perhaps you have seen a copy of the book they co-authored "An Illustrated Guide to Monarch Mind Control," by Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler. Cisco is the name of an alter ego within the MPD system, of a woman whose name is actually Linda Johnson.<br><br>In March 1995, Fritz and Cisco traveled to a symposium in Texas using the names Fritz and Cisco Springmeier. The shared the same motel room and were generally known to be husband and wife. It was several weeks later that I discovered this when someone called for Fritz and assumed that I must be Cisco when I answered the phone. I also know for a fact that Fritz and Cisco share the same bedroom at her house (supposedly always in different beds), so that he can protect her from being triggered by "astral-projections," and access in general. Although Linda's husband lives in his own apartment behind the garage on the same property, I have no understanding of how he tolerates his wife's sleeping arrangements.<br><br>I have been prayerfully trying to break Fritz away from this situation. Every Christian friend that knows about this situation has told him that he needs to put his family before "ministry" and his personal needs, and that he needs to realize that he is abandoning his family. I have tried to be loving toward him, and be as supportive of his ministry as I can. I have tried to show him that there is room for his ministry at home. Finally, however, I have come to realize that I can't draw him away from Cisco, and that I'm now very little more than a Christian front for a "ministry" and the writings of a man badly deceived and outside of the protective cover of any Godly authority structure.<br><br>I love my husband, but for the sake of our children and Fritz's soul itself, I will no longer support his "ministry," nor will I hide his sin. Our children have suffered greatly by Fritz's abandonment. Our 14 year old, Michael, is actually my child from my first marriage and his father is deceased, however, Fritz has been his step dad for half his life. Michael no longer respects Fritz, because he is old enough to see what is going on and how badly his mother is hurt by Fritz's lack of attention. Sadly, the fact that Fritz lives with Linda has become common knowledge with our 4-year-old, Erick, and he acts out his anger with aggressive attitudes and hitting.<br><br>Also, Fritz's "ministry" is not supporting itself. Just a couple of weeks ago Fritz was suggesting that we borrow $17,000.00 on the equity of our home to pay the printing of 3000 "Top 13 Illuminati" books (so he could sell 1000 of them to you).<br><br>My teaching job is the mainstay of this family, and besides our great provider, our Heavenly Father, our home is our only security. We have no savings, investments, etc., only our home and hundreds of unsold "Watchtower and Mason" books. By the way, Fritz still owes $2,500 to the publisher who printed those. The money from your last order was supposed to go directly to the publishers. It is unknown how it was spent, but it didn't get to the publishers.<br><br>The reason I changed our phone number is so that I would no longer need to explain that I had no idea when Fritz would be home, nor did I know when he gets up in the morning. I have simply refused to be a Christian front any longer. On Friday, August 25, 1995, Fritz was served with divorce papers. I need to see a repentant heart and behavioral change over a long period of time, before I'll even consider living with him again. So far, he is very angry with me, and acts out the appearance of being very unjustly treated. He states that I still don't "support his ministry and never have." I believe he sees "support" in dollars and cents, because a friend and I together saved him from several lawsuits for mail fraud last Summer and Fall, essentially saving his "ministry." You may remember getting calls from people wondering who this Fritz Springmeier was, and whether he should be trusted when he would cash checks, and not process an order for six months, or so.<br><br>I believe our friend and I did you a great disservice by saving Fritz from the consequences of his own action last year. Fritz wasn't every appreciative of our help, however, yet he shouldn't be able to look me in the face and say "you never have supported my ministry." It simply is not true.<br><br>In the first paragraph of this letter I referred to the safety of this family. I married Fritz, because I was in love and I felt he was a devoted Christian and a victim of his first wife. The fact remains, however, that Fritz is a convicted felon, and he spent time in prison. His crime was interfering with custodial rights and kidnapping his son. He was on the run with his son by his first marriage, James, for almost four years. During this time he used false identification under 6 or 7 names. A couple of weeks ago, I found this ID carefully filed away in a file box, with his current driver's license blown up, as if for examination for duplication. Fritz is trained as a grapho-analyst, and is a talented graphic artist. He has made his own driver's licenses before and a trusted friend says he has created more false ID. He saw Fritz with a current Canadian passport and credit cards under the name of "Amos Eicher," one of the aliases he used on the run. Why? I'm not sure, but I feel that he must be getting ready to run again. Until I can be sure of why he needs this ID, I'm seeking supervised visitation for Erick.<br><br>I don't even know who this man is any more. In recent months I have told Fritz that the only reason that I stuck with him were because I loved him and, although I didn't always agree that what he was doing was right, that I firmly believed that he thought he had God's approval for what he was doing. Well, I no longer believe in him, and I thought it only right to tell you openly and honestly that his life style is no longer Christian, and now you can determine how you want to deal with his "ministry."<br><br>I will say it again, I love Fritz and find no pleasure in discrediting him. In fact, last winter I wrote a long letter to the publishers of "The Little Cloud Report," Camille Blumstrum, defending my husband against their anti-Semitic accusations (I remember that you also wrote in his defense – thank you). I’m much more used to defending rather than discrediting, but I can no longer defend Fritz.<br><br>Again, I apologize for the "front" I maintained through July and the first weeks of August. I was trying to keep the appearance of a normal life, while finding out as much as I could about what Fritz was involved with. I realize that you have quoted Fritz in your books, and marketed his books, and I really hated to be a party to this and to put you in this position. God bless your ministry, and direct you in His way.<br><br>Gail Springmeier<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>It's import is that it seems to be part of a pattern of rescuers, a la Phillips and gunderson, as well. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby rothbardian » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:32 am

So how do you distinguish between the good rescuers and the bad rescuers? <br><br>Again, this is just a divorce controversy...a very awkward thing for sophisticated humanists to make hay out of, don't you think? There simply isn't anything in this report about Springmeier that compares to what has been theorized about Mark Phillips.<br><br>For my money, there just seems to be just a rush to get an embarrassingly 'politically incorrect' figure out of the scene and tucked safely in prison by the PTB. Justice? Schmustice. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby Dreams End » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:00 pm

Ummm...liberals in general dismiss ALL of this, whether the rescuer is politically correct or not.<br><br>Believe what you want...it may "just" be a part of a divorce procedure, but here she is explaining why she wants the divorce. Why does that automatically mean it's a lie? She was a big part of his work.<br><br>If the eyewitness testimony of his formerly loyal wife isn't of concern to you, and the experiences of Texxe Marr (whom I normally would not quote, but they were on the same side ) then really nothing will be of concern to you.<br><br>I guess I'm trying to get across that there are a lot of games being played as the current Gosch stuff clearly indicates. A story breaks and immediately people swoop in to expose the "truth." Often, it turns out that such truthtellers are part of the disinfo. So I can be suspicious of Fritz without disbelieving all about MC. Kathleen Sullivan has a four part interview with Jeff...maybe you should read those links where she talks about this very phenomenon. Rescuers who turn out to be handlers themselves, etc. (She lives in Chatanooga and I'd like to meet her.) <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby LilyPatToo » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:35 pm

I'm still mulling this over myself, but the one insight that I keep coming back to is based upon my personal experience, so I think I should mention it even though I'm by no means certain that it applies to all (or even most) cases. <br><br>When the damsel in distress happens to be a mind control program survivor, she's likely to have sex slave programming and to have had a personal history rife with sexual exploitation. She probably has been trained since infancy to relate to men primarily via sex, so even if she has little conscious knowledge about her own past, her unconscious response to being helped by a man may be to seduce him.<br><br>The fact that that behavior may in the long run discredit both of them (AND the legitimacy of mind control research in general) probably isn't apparent to the woman, though one would hope that the rescuer would be aware enough to see it, if he's truly a rescuer and not just her new disinfo specialist handler. Yet, as Kathleen Sullivan points out, it keeps happening, doesn't it?<br><br>In Springmeier's writings, I've found amazing corroboration with my own experiences/memories, even down to minute details that I've not told anyone else about or seen mentioned anywhere else. This tells me that Wheeler is the Real Thing, but it doesn't prove that her memories are uncontaminated or that he's correct about all the conclusions he's drawn, based upon them.<br><br>As a Liberal, I'm dismayed by the number of my peers (close to 100%, in my own sphere) who have totally bought into the snicker factor and are dismissive of mind control altogether. The very people who work tirelessly for human rights also <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>dismiss out of hand</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> any suggestion that officially sanctioned mind control programs are sexually abusing/exploiting children and adults and systematically messing with their minds. That maddens me. And people like Springmeier are part of the reason why that level of denial continues to operate in the Liberal community. He's starting to look like a parody of the stereotypical hypocritical holier-than-thou Religious Right Bible thumping conspiracy nut. If Wheeler's material wasn't so accurate, I'd wonder if she wasn't simply used to set him up and knock him down.<br><br>Springmeier's insight about Oxnam IS fascinating, at least to me. And since this stuff tends to be intergenerational, that the guy's grandson is now admitting to being DID is logical and to be expected. Fritz nailed that one all right.....<br><br>LilyPat <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby Dreams End » Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:09 pm

I think you are right about Wheeler...especially if you find details that match up.<br><br>But the "bloodlines" business...she may have been told that stuff, but it just doesn't hang together. <br><br>In any event, I think people should be open to the idea that bad guys can pose as good guys. Also, the idea that good guys can put their faith in and be influenced by bad guys. As a "leftist" I battle the lack of understanding in the concept all the time. Oh, if they have "communist" or "socialist" in their name, they are "leftists" and if they say anti-Bush things, they are progressive, etc. <br><br>the reason Gosch is important to the world, and the Finders, and Franklin (though tainted with disinfo) is that it's easy to see that these things happened. Nobody disputes that...what is disputed is what it means and how high it goes. <br><br>If it turns out I'm wrong and there is a literal "illuminati" running things from a castle in Hamburg...eventually maybe I'll see the light. But others should consider that an effective means of disinfo is to take legit info and put it in the hands of someone who will mix it up with all kinds of discrediting stuff. For example, I sort of assume that Cathy O'Brien didn't see any elites literally change into reptiles. But isn't it convenient how that distracts from the rest of her story. (I would put my blame on Phillips here...if nothing else the Cheney pic gave me reason to think she's got something to her story.)<br><br>So, I think we must allow ourselves, in a forum like this, to question parts of someone's story without suggesting that we are therefore accepting of the official story or somehow official "debunkers." In fact, it's essential. Otherwise, there is no credibility to it at all.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Springmeier railroaded?

Postby LilyPatToo » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:21 pm

Actually, the O'Brien/reptiles incident neatly illustrates our point--she's said multiple times, very publically, that the GHW Bu$h/reptilian scene involved a test-run of a holographic projection device. Period. She knew that it was Poppy and not a huge reptile reading from the book. <br><br>BUT David Icke misunderstood her and publicized his misunderstanding so widely that she'll be denying it for the rest of her days. I've both read her original story and her published explanation and denial AND seen her refute it on video, yet it is still the story most often cited when her name comes up. And that must be really maddening. And it wasn't, as near as I know, Phillips' fault, either.<br><br>That's what happens if the only people who will *listen* to you happen to be unbalanced in some way and use your story to embellish their own delusions. The Icke incident was so outrageous that at first I was convinced that he had to be a conscious disinfo agent, but after learning more about him, I realized that he was most likely just being used. I hate this whole field some days.....<br><br>LilyPat <p></p><i></i>
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