Are you a good witch or a bad witch?

by **Avalon** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:09 am

... as will this member of the Wiccan clergy. But I'm just not going to be able to keep up in this conversation terribly well as I'm pretty strapped for time these days. So if there are any direct questions you might like to address to an actual live Wiccan, rather than brandishing us as cudgels to beat arguments into submission, keep 'em short and sweet. And courteous -- did I remember to say please keep it courteous, even if you don't like us? Dreams End is holding the fort just fine, though (psst! Robert! It's Dreams End's wife who is Pagan, not Dreams End).

by **Dreams End** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:21 am

I love the fantastic discussions here...deep. This one has gotten too deep in that it gets really hard to keep up with it all in this bulletin board format. I also feel like some of my points are misunderstood. I'll start here: I'm not a pagan. My wife is. For what it's worth, I went through Atheist, to Christian...spent time in an intentional community which serves the homeless in the Catholic Worker model. When I was younger I was, for a time, a member of the communist workers party. I was young...I wouldn't join them now but not for reasons having to do with wanting to "red bait" my own past, and that's another story (and they no longer exist). Now I'm back to searching. While I've defended, to some extent, the "mix and match" eclecticism of "neo-pagans", it is not to my taste. The amount of time I've spent in pagan ceremonies, if you don't count visits to Catholic monasteries, is probably a total of 4 or 5 hours. My "defense" of paganism was taken to mean I am pagan. I'd probably make the same assumption (though I explain it in my last post.) I simply want us to be careful in our defining terms and the political landscape. And though I do not assume anti-pagan means anti-Christian, anti-pagan is certainly used by certain Christians to advance a political agenda. We, or at least I, don't want any part of that. As for "unseen forces" I was specifically referring to the supernatural variety. That's not the focus of our discussion, so I'll leave that issue unexplored...Jeff messes with our head enough about these things as it is! And I'm sorry I'm not working class enough for you. Do I "blame the working class"? Certainly not. My points were that Christianity is, by and large, statist and conformist or, worse, reactionary. It is manipulated. "Behind the scenes" is all kinds of nastiness...I think I was clear that the unmasking of that nastiness would leave many Christians very distraught. Just watch CBN for awhile. I do this not just to criticize Christianity nor to condemn the totality of Christians...only to make the point that your concerns apply to segments (I maintain large segments) of our dominant religion. And I never said only working class Christians were the problem. It's not just working class people who are fundamentalists. It's all over the economic spectrum and, in fact, is manipulated in order to mask the very real injustices engendered by the economic system. Does this necessarily contradict the idea that at their core, our elites aren't really Christian...of course not. As for TV and mass media...well, yes, I don't BLAME the working class for watching too much...please. My point is that we have a very powerful system of propaganda, both corporate and government. And guess what, the working class don't have as much access to the internet, so their information sources are more limited. So please stop with the "more working class than thou, stuff". (more on that below) (Oh, by the way, if you are new to this board...there is a quote function but it's kinda hidden. If you hit the "EZ Codes" button, even though it looks to already be selected, you'll find various options for handling highlighted text. Might make the discussion easier to follow.) A few comments on your points. I'm picking and choosing for brevity, not to mislead in any way, so pardon if I do so inadvertently. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why do you think progressive liberation theology was so popular all over the “3rd world”? <hr></blockquote> Because it helped the poor (very short answer). And why do you think Catholicism was so popular with the ruling elites? Because it supported the state. See, one religion does not mean a monolithic set of beliefs. Catholicism is the very finest example as Catholic generals were offing Catholic Bishops who got out of line. Now, can we accept that such might be the case with "paganism" which we still haven't defined very well? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>As to your constant return to the evils of the “three giant trees”, I say – “get over it”. The resurgent neo-paganistic ideologies leave nothing for us to work with, especially when trying to win the battle for the “hearts and minds” of the vast masses of people with the fundamentalist elements of the three major religions.<hr></blockquote> "Get over it?" Okay, let's forget the last 2000 years of history and start from today. My argument had nothing to do with whether neo-paganism had anything to "work with" when winning over people. And that sounds suspiciously like how the elites use Christianity in my view, promoting religious ideals to support a political agenda. Marx is correct, religion is, by and large, the opiate of the masses. But not ALWAYS and we agree on that. (Hooray for agreements). My point was not that Christianity is ALWAYS bad...I was clear about that. I use Christianity to illustrate that any religious system can be used for ill, especialy when combined with state power, which Christianity enjoys right now. Check the prayer meetings in the White House. And, once again, let's be clear...I'm not blaming Christianity for Bush...I'm blaming Bush and the elites for the modern state of Christianity (to oversimplify to make my point.) <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Talk about “western ideology” – what is more “western” than reducing everything to a self-admittedly disconnected stance, a hyper-individualist, highly personal take (“regional differences”), leading us away from the macro-analysis of our current world that is so necessary now?<hr></blockquote> My comments on regional differences was my polite way of saying your views on the role of Christianity in this country are silly. It sounded nicer the first way. I rejected Christianity, in part, because I felt it was almost completely compromised in its relationship to the power structure in this country. You fully accept that people can be manipulated away from political activity by religion, but only neo-paganism is guilty enough of this to receive your ire. I suggest that not only is this possible in Christianity, but, in fact is far more predominant, if for no other reason than there are lots more Christians. And, to keep making the point, this does not condemn all Christians or even working class Christians, it condemns the power structure and all the machinations behind that structure which manipulates Christianity (though it's done so since Constantine). <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Not on the part of us influential white people. What typical snotty leftist elitism. So your new-age friends are so much smarter than those beer-swilling, SUV-driving christian rednecks watching Jerry Springer?<hr></blockquote> Careful there, friend. I'll play nice if you will. Interesting that you assumed I was attacking the working class when pointing out the role TV plays in pacifying the masses. That was YOUR take. The middle class watches tons of tv...that's one thing that keeps them so frenetic in trying to maintain their middle class status. YOU said Christian rednecks. YOU said beer-swilling. I say, sure Jerry Springer, but also CNN. Must see TV AND "won't let you see" TV. TV sets a pro-state, consumerist agenda that reaches well above the working class. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Maybe you can see it like the idea of building a 3rd-party in the US. As indistinct from republicans, as horrible, as bad, as corrupt, as the democratic party is, within our petrified 2-party system many (including myself) have learned it was foolishness.<hr></blockquote> Tell me I didn't just wade through being called, basically, elitist and politically naive by someone who defends working within the Democratic party as somehow a route to political change. I'm out of touch with political reality in the US? Buddy, when Kerry said "I won't fight the election results" and when the Dem convention tossed Medea Benjamin (whom I don't even like) out in handcuffs for unfurling an anti-war sign, it was game over (probably game over long before then.) I can't believe I passed over this paragraph when responding to the stuff below. I thought you were some kind of fairly sophisticated leftist. You are suggesting the electoral politics has ANY relevance anymore? They'll just buy the elections and what they can't buy they'll steal or worse (RIP Paul Wellstone). You don't even have to get into the Kerry and Bush/Skull and Bones business to see that the electoral door has been closed. Unbelievable. And then later you have the nerve to say: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Fuckin’ STARHAWK is what you think of as an “activist”? And the western “environmental movement” is what you think of as “activism”? This is really not meant to be construed as offensive, but at this point I can see that you are seriously under-informed about the reality of political affairs in the US.<hr></blockquote> First off, my bad, homey. I thought your point was that pagans weren't politically active. I didn't realize you meant that they weren't politically active IN A WAY THAT MET WITH YOUR APPROVAL. That's going to be a harder standard for me to meet. But Starhawk has been with anti-globalists who've been getting their skulls beaten in for years. She's reported military atrocities in Palestine....give her some credit. Sheesh, man. And these guys aren't Sierra club types...those activists are the ones in the Democratic party you think holds out our only hope. At least Starhawk walks the fucking walk man. Talk about elitist. Now that this is out of my system. I just read the Parenti article. I found it amusing that he defines the "new age community" he is concerned promotes political quietism as: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>an amalgam of Eastern mysticism, Western occultism, self-help psychology, and alternative health practices.<hr></blockquote> If you don't get the joke...he never mentions paganism. The "new age movement" he describes I detest as much as you. But THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. I was the one who brought up westerners appropriation of eastern mysticism in the first place, in fact. And all that Parenti mentions here is, in fact, part of the "profit through enlightenment" philosophy that is so American. What I was suggesting is that everything Parenti finds in New Age thought (and we've shifted our ground again...he doesn't even mention pagans) is true within elements of Christianity. Geez, man...it's obvious. Go to your local Christian bookstore and you'll see a huge variety of "self-help" books and various Christian prayers and techniques for aquiring wealth. It's a pretty long tradition. Jesus was the "Greatest Salesman who ever lived." And all the rapture stuff gets thrown in for Christians (you understand now that I mean of the fundamentalist variety, though I could cast a different set of criticisms on "liberal" Christianity but that is another issue.) Hey the world is ending...don't worry about the material world. Remember James Watt? (And a side note: alternative health practices? You think our medical system and it's pharmo/insurance monopoly doesn't affect the working class? ) Oh, and how about his line: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yet many New Agers place great value on a self-contained individuality.<hr></blockquote> My friend, that is a summary of AMERICAN ideology. That is the dominant ideology that is being promoted on TV, in our textbooks, in our movies, on our cereal boxes, by our dominant political parties and within our most predominant religion: Calvinist based Protestant Christianity. I can't believe someone as sophisticated as Parenti is trying to place this ideological virus solely at the feet of "New Agers." In fact, I argue that this ideology is so ingrained in our culture that it has, in fact, shaped the New Age movement...not the reverse. Now, unfortunately, your main point was the one that you did not have time to finish arguing...and that is that there is some coherent pagan ideology that is intentionally being promoted by the elites. Here's a snippet of our exchange: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>”Me: Again, our first task, though, in this debate, is to define who we are talking about.” You go first. What exactly do you think are the main widely-held beliefs of the western new-age neo-pagans?<hr></blockquote> I CAN'T, man...that's the whole point. You are the one who has suggested that there is a coherent and destructive ideology being promoted via paganism by the elites (or else paganism is the destructive ideology being promoted by devices such as Harry Potter.) And you've thrown, rather confusingly, all New Age thought into the mix now with the Parenti article. Well, I never started out to defend ALL the New Agers. I simply suggested that there are some nice pagans. I suggested some of them are activists and concerned about other people and their world. You've stereotyped them and classified them harshly while warning me of doing the same to "my neighbor".

by **proldic** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:23 pm

"Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos" “…the world is pretty much the same world it was 3,000 years ago. It's a violent world, one where the strong survive and the weak are crushed…the same basic forces at play today were the same issues faced by societies millennia ago…the modern notion of a moral conquest is a far-off dream. Real leadership requires putting aside the Christian ethic of sacrifice and taking on a more pagan ethos" I’m not a “supporter” of christianity, and I’m not a Christian. A big part of my life, however, has been spent in/among the modern euro-american left-wing, “counter-culture”, and new-age movement You want everything to be equal. But all is not the same. There are value judgments to be made, and a hierarchy of values to be determined. Here’s one: At this point in time, it is more important for conscious people to work towards getting those that identify as “counter-culture” (such as yourself) to reach out to those who identify as “mainstream” (such as your neighbors) than it is for us to work towards getting the “mainstream” (your neighbors) to reach out to the “counter-culture” (you). I should be able to criticize the new age movement, and the Left as a whole without being constantly reminded that Christians, or other mainstreamers are fucked up too. Granting that fundamentalists are fucked up, let’s remember that we’re supposed to expect more from leftists, from those who claim to be enlightened, and those that say they want to fight for a better world. We are in urgent times. It would seem to me that the real “new age” will come when smart people such as yourself become less eclectic, less concerned with defending fringe culture, more pragmatic, and more oriented towards effective – mass -- organizing. Modern paganism and these kind of elitist-inspired distractions should be cast aside once and for all by those who should know better. Look, now you seem to be primed and ready to buy into a whole new mythology, when it comes to the modern american left. If you can’t even conceive of that being possible, I would highly recommend you get a hold of the book that Jeff quoted in his last post, “History Will Not Absolve Us” by E. Martin Schotz, for some background on how this might happen today. It’s actually quite a phenomenon. Starhawk is very influential, almost untouchable. No doubt, she’s a great example of the new-age mentality. She is also happens to be unintentionally pushing some bad memes covert propaganda to the counter-cultural left. I mean - think about it - what’s really important in this day and age? Sticking to your pagan beliefs and calling yourself “Starhawk”? What about compromising a little, and getting a real name? Like “Mary Jones”. It’s about individual selfishness, “making their own choices”. Politically immature, childish, and out-of-touch with the masses, the new-age, counter-cultural leftist simply refuses to “play by the rules of the game” (as they see it). They profess to want to make a change for better in the world – just as long as they get to keep their precious (pagan) “self-identity”. Or as long as they don’t have to question any of their sacred cows like Democracy Now, or do anything distasteful that is not completely of their own choosing, like working to find common ground with “red-staters”, or compromising their anarchist principals by voting. I hardly think Starhawk “…walks the fucking walk man.” From what I hear, Starhawk lives up in the mountains in an enclave of self-satisfied white hippiedom. She writes books about “good witches” separating off the San Francisco area from the rest of the country (sound familiar?) into some pagan ecosexual utopia. She does pretty-sounding bullshit like pagan ceremonies, “consensus-building”, “permaculture”, and “direct action teach-ins”, showing anarchist kids how to get arrested in big protests. This is not credible “activism”, this is what has been substituted for “activism” in the minds of your average modern north american leftist. Sure, Starhawk will come down from her perch to lend her support once in a while, and sure she takes some risks by going to protests, but you don’t see her putting her massive influence and relative wealth into any credible effort to support, say, pragmatic, grass-roots, working-class politics, not to even mention coming down to help out a bit to stop some of the atrocities going on in Oakland. In this political stage we are in, simply getting their head bashed or getting gassed does not qualify somebody to be a “political activist”, nor does it necessarily give them any validity as a spokesperson. Thanks in large part to the system capitalizing on the proudly-held ideological alienation from the masses that you are perpetuating, the larger mass protests have become somewhat of a sick joke. “Are you ready to take your room in your waterfront hotel, miss? Don’t mind the ointment...” Sure, protests these days are getting more dangerous. Pro racing is also pretty dangerous. That doesn’t make it the only - or necessarily the most effective - tool in the fight against capitalism at this time. It should be obvious to anybody with any claim to “deep” political awareness (and I would have thought especially fans of RI), that the political efficacy of the new-age, the “counter-culture”, and the modern “protest culture” is limited, at best. The real question ought to be: are they actually playing out a role custom-designed for them by the elites a large part of the time? Ya know – are they doing more harm than good? Unfortunately, for much of the modern “protest crowd”, getting their heads bashed by the cops will be the height of their political career. Bet you’d be hard-pressed to find 5 out of 50 of them who would be able to muster any credibility when speaking at a town meeting, or in front of a “mainstream” church group. And just like their hippy parents before them, most will return to the fold at the end of the day. The brief moment of labor-green unity in Seattle - like the other points of hope for significant mass populist appeal by the self-identified left from the ‘60’s until today - largely fizzled away. This was due to a number of factors, including some serious unresolved internal contradictions within the environmental and cultural wings of the progressive movement, contradictions that have been, and will continue to be, exploited to the max by the ptb. The point is, as much as modern north american leftists yearn to make common cause with struggles in other parts of the world, they will – if they persist on the same cultural and ideological paths – continue to play a marginal role in political change at any level here at home - where it counts. Eventually, even at the protest level. The modern north american counter-cultural left-wing is almost completely co-opted at this point. At the leadership level, most obviously by the subtle and insidious influence of foundation funding, and at the grass-roots level, at the less-obvious level of ideas. There really are lies that are fed to the left, as well as to the “mainstream”. When it comes to propaganda in America, you truly can “have it your way”. I’m not saying that Starhawk doesn’t care, it’s how she cares. And what influenced her “choice”. Ex.: Instead of flying over to the middle east “reporting military atrocities in Palestinian”, a limited, highly-divisive and tactically-questionable cause to say the least, maybe the great “Starhawk” should concentrate more of her efforts (and money) on working to build working-class power in the US…which might go a long way to stopping the atrocities occurring both around the world, and the ones occurring here at home, no? These (you) are our people I’m crying out to. If your implication is correct - and most modern Christians are out to lunch – then we need to begin looking more critically at ourselves and our friends and our heroes, and figure out why we are having so much trouble reaching “the masses” in this seemingly desperate hour. Where’s all the new-age “look within” when it counts? We don’t have to go back centuries in time to find widespread unity and effective resistance by the exploited classes. Pick a point. How about the turn of the century? Or the 1930’s? And please don’t try to tell me it was the ‘60’s. Maybe we should start looking back to the lessons learned from a time - not so long ago - when inclusive, pragmatic, populist-oriented, class-based organizing was successful. It’s time for all of us to go even deeper, and be more self-critical, and then start applying what we learn to the socio-political reality around us. It’s actually about building up people’s self-esteem, helping people realize how much amazing power they could wield if they could just get rid of those fucking cobwebs - these long-dead bones of skeletons from the dustbins of history, their new life blown into them by spooks like Blavatsky and Brzezinski. Release these mental chains, and stop getting suckered into a new set of mystical bullshit every thirty years. There is huge significance in the fact that we are not in concentration camps at this point, in the gains against indiscriminate murder and lynching by the upper classes, for justice, civil rights, and black political power, for ethnic & racial unity, in the elevation of working-class women to positions of political power, in the right to keep a home, and not be frozen out, or tossed out for signing a union card, in the right to speak out politically, to print and distribute leaflets, organize across class lines, or demonstrate, or in the the concept of a minimum living wage, or in the fact that kids can’t be used as cheap labor, or that we have collective bargaining, the 40-hour week, anti-trust and banking regulations, public libraries and transportation systems, concepts of workplace and consumer safety, the right for working-class people to get a higher education, in the fact that there is even something called “social security”, even in the very fact that – if you are working-class – you had a chance to be born. The significance is that all the positive things we have attained in this modern society - and tend to take for granted - come from the “sacrifice” by working-class peoples of the mainstream religions - united in struggle together, while, until very recently (and I would argue largely still), new-agers, occultists, neo-pagans, mystics, bohemians, esoterics, etc. did absolutely nothing. In fact, in the west, their ranks seem to draw primarily from the sons and daughters of the more privileged classes, and those seeking to ascend to those classes – most often from the more liberal bourgeoisie and intellectual elements, and those of us who could afford to go to liberal arts colleges, etc. “You are suggesting the electoral politics has ANY relevance anymore? They'll just buy the elections and what they can't buy they'll steal or worse (RIP Paul Wellstone). You don't even have to get into the Kerry and Bush/Skull and Bones business to see that the electoral door has been closed.” This is supposed to be the sophisticated view? Listen, if electoral politics didn’t matter, the right-wing wouldn’t be fighting so hard to control it. And a bunch of leftists have abandoned the fight altogether. The CIA would like nothing more than for more people to think like you do. Shit, they wouldn’t have to actually stick their necks out as much, that’s for sure. Are you so deluded to think that, at this particular point in time, it’s completely “sewn up”, enough so that electoral politics has absolutely – zero-- relevance anymore? Ex: our Constitution has from day 1 been a compromise wrought of the struggle between supporters of the general concept of liberty and justice for all, and supporters of hereditary government. A compromise forced by the threat of working-class power, but a compromise – which is going to mean partially flawed – none the same. Does that mean we should just abandon our support for the Bill of Rights? I’m not naively advocating that just by campaigning for whatever Democrat they put on the ticket we’ll miraculously change things for the better. What I am saying is: we need to fight just as hard as the opposition is fighting to make it possible to change the system through voting. The fact that the democratic party has been so thoroughly corrupted is due in large part to the lack of attention to power structure research on the part of the counter-cultural left in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s. Think about it, the fact is that they did steal the last two presidential elections, and you’re willing to throw your hands up and walk away from electoral politics. There are people on the left who are fighting to get the word out about vote fraud, and encouraging people to vote, especially on a local and state level where it is still more possible to make a difference, and working for the right to referendum and initiative, and all sorts of electoral-based political activism. On the flip side are the anarchists, and the counter-culturists who smugly wash their hands of electoral politics altogether. That’s a core problem with so many counter-culture types, they are so loathe to deal with anything they see as tainted by the establishment, that they throw the baby out with the bath water time and time again. We know that counter-culture types have walked away from organized religion, conventional mores, electoral politics, western medicine, etc., etc. But what are they walking toward, besides smug self-satisfaction and a panoply of ill-defined beliefs? But god forbid I should judge the pagan future-primitivists. Sure, people are free to self-identify - as long as they reject all that is corrupted and un-pure. These kind of folks would rather sit by and watch the electoral system fall farther toward the goals of the fascist new world order, then get their hands dirty trying to work to energize every element of the game, including the grass-roots Democratic Party. Let’s acknowledge once and for all the tactical reality made necessary by the fact that we have a two-party system, and - despite the fact that -- gasp -- the leadership of the two parties are the same - that’s where the struggle lies. Not in accepting the corrupt Democrats for a lack of a better option, but in working to reclaim and retain the remaining d/Democratic structures that exist. For strong anti-n.w.o. trade unionism, for African Americans, for all working citizens. Isn’t it funny contrasting your view of the electoral process with the fact that most African Americans still come out in force to vote. I’d hate to hear you claim that they are any more naïve then the average modern north american leftist? Listen, no one knows better in this country then poor African Americans that the cards are stacked against them. Who has the Democratic party sold out most of all? Who has been subject to more voting discrimination and fraud? Who has had true “conspiracy consciousness” longer -longer than black people? But they also know that giving up – even if it means voting in a rigged system - is the worst option at all. And these same people are organized in their communities, fighting for their communities, going to school board meetings, fighting toxic classism. Just as much as - and better than - any of the new-agers I’ve ever met. Quite an accomplishment, considering most of these people lack the privilege of a college education and the seemingly abundant free time that most of the new-age types seem to have to. You don’t seem to have a very detailed understanding of how political fraud is actually working, and at what actual technical level of roll-out computer vote-fraud is at today. I wish you could see that, despite the fraud, and assassinations, and the control of the secret societies, there is still a major battle looming to preserve our democratic systems, and you are simply walking away in the hottest part of the battle. By the way, this seems to be an example of the same kind of simplistic either/or dualism you are infected with when you are talking about religion. The next stage ought to be understanding synthesis. Elections are corrupted = walk away = give up. They won’t go away overnight, despite the best efforts of folks to get everyone to jump ship at the last minute. Starhawk’s suggestion we do nothing besides abandon civil government, and fight the ptb with permaculture, grease cars, localization, and pagan ritual, and get our heads before the next 9/11. You should be seeking unity and common-ground with Christians, not exacerbating the “red-blue” divide and conquer. It’s about “keeping it real”, being truly “down-to-earth”, and learning how to triage…

by **Avalon** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:55 pm

"I mean - think about it - what’s really important in this day and age? Sticking to your pagan beliefs and calling yourself “Starhawk”? What about compromising a little, and getting a real name? Like “Mary Jones" Why didn't he stick to a perfectly good name like "Ratzinger"? Why don't they refer to him as "Mr. Berrigan" rather than "Father Berrigan"? And isn't "Mr" good enough for rabbis too? And shouldn't we keep calling Marilyn Monroe "Norma Jeane Dougherty"? Why don't you make a fuss about Catholic "Fathers" never having children? "Starhawk" is both her religious name and the name she has used professionally for writing for over 20 years. Why is this an issue, while other religious names and titles are accepted?

by **proldic** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:12 pm

"You people" just don't get it, do you?

by **hmm** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:14 pm

look,you started of pretty good,it was a fascinating discussion with interesting viewpoints. I probably share some of your concerns and views,but this is not a place to fight,or a place where personalising an argument or agression towards the person go down well

by **Dreams End** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I should be able to criticize the new age movement, and the Left as a whole without being constantly reminded that Christians, or other mainstreamers are fucked up too.<hr></blockquote> Not if you single them out as somehow unique in this regard. If it's ALL types of people who are "fucked up" in the ways we've been talking about, then the Pagan/Christian/Other conversation is not relevant. You want to argue that Pagans have some special obligation to be more political than Christians because we should "expect more of leftists" but that is rather circular reasoning. By the way, do you want to discuss Pagans or "the New Age Movement"? because you keep flipping back and forth. The New Age Movement includes a lot of people who practice, or think they are practicing, religions that are rather mainstream in other countries, such as Buddhism. I've given my own criticism of the general New Age movement...and I don't want to be cast in the role of defending them. Remember, I said the New Age Movement was infected with the "profit through enlightenment" virus. I think you interpreted that to mean that the purveyors of these movements were after profit. I'm sure they are, but that's not what I meant. I mean that the "theology" of these movements is that, if you practice a particular form of spirituality, you, as an individual, will get stuff. I also suggested that this same virus infects Christianity. In fact, it is at the heart of Calvinist Protestant thought, which is why Christianity, in SOME of its guises has been such a cheerleader for capitalism. Further, I argued that it is this ideology that helped shape the new age movements, which electically borrow from all over to shape the same message: Spiritual practice is about getting stuff for yourself. That said, some New Agers look deeply into the traditions from which they borrow (even when it's rather bastardized) and see other messages, some of which inspire them to activism. I say this, because, unlike you, despite my problems with "New Agers" I don't want to stereotype. In addition, I was quite clear that I'm not condemning all Christians by the points I'm making. I'm simply trying to suggest that your focus on pagans as the source of all political ills (I know I'm exaggerating...but just to make the point) is misguided. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I mean - think about it - what’s really important in this day and age? Sticking to your pagan beliefs and calling yourself “Starhawk”? What about compromising a little, and getting a real name? Like “Mary Jones”.<hr></blockquote> That WAS a joke, right. You really don't think someone's decision to change his or her name has any bearing on this? Not a big Malcolm X fan, I take it? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>From what I hear, Starhawk lives up in the mountains in an enclave of self-satisfied white hippiedom. She writes books about “good witches” separating off the San Francisco area from the rest of the country (sound familiar?) into some pagan ecosexual utopia. She does pretty-sounding bullshit like pagan ceremonies, “consensus-building”, “permaculture”, and “direct action teach-ins”, showing anarchist kids how to get arrested in big protests. This is not credible “activism”, this is what has been substituted for “activism” in the minds of your average modern north american leftist. <hr></blockquote> I don't even know where to start, here. How about with this review of one of Starhawk's books about the anti-globalization movement. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>From a review in Cincinnati Magazine: "For those like myself, who all too often find themselves supporting from the sidelines, Webs of Power is a persuasive account of why we should increase our level of involvement. For those like the author, who are drawn to the frontlines of the actions, it is a powerful affirmation, a reminder that change comes only with effort. And for those in power who continue to hide behind police barricades, Webs of Power is a wake-up call, a reminder that not everyone is content to live in a world ruled by corporate interests." <hr></blockquote> By the way, I don't know much about Starhawk at all. I just knew her name so I knew it would be an easy example to offer. You know the saying: It just takes one white crow to prove that all crows aren't black. She was just the first white crow I could think of. And this "activism" you don't like, is not North American...it's quite international in scope. Evidently, someone forgot to tell you that corporate power now transcends national boundaries, which is why an international movement is so important. (It's also why America has been so deindustrialized) I'm sorry their brand of activism doesn't suit you. But since the Democratic party is not an international party, I don't think there's much that can be done about it for those who come from other countries. And I notice, in the above quote, you've gone from criticizing the pagans to the "average modern north american leftist". In fact, your criticism really moves almost completely in that direction by the end. We'll start here, as you suggest the anti-globalization protests are ineffective and perhaps worse: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The real question ought to be: are they actually playing out a role custom-designed for them by the elites a large part of the time?<hr></blockquote> Well, there is ALWAYS that danger. There are so many wheels within wheels. But COME ON...surely you can say the same of the Democratic party and with far greater evidence. In addition, as you point out later on, this can be said for just about ALL of the left. To wit: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The modern north american counter-cultural left-wing is almost completely co-opted at this point. At the leadership level, most obviously by the subtle and insidious influence of foundation funding, and at the grass-roots level, at the less-obvious level of ideas. There really are lies that are fed to the left, as well as to the “mainstream”.<hr></blockquote> We are getting dangerously close to agreement here, so maybe we should stop before we get boring. However, notice what you are doing here. You are now saying that pretty much all the left is compromised, so we see that it's not just the Pagans. It's also all of the "counter-cultural" left wing. And even though I'm not sure where the line is between "counter-cultural" left wing and left in general (probably simply wherever you say it is), your allusion to "foundation funding" and Amy Goodman suggests it's a pretty widespread phenomenon in the left. Well, I agree. But you sure are starting to narrow down the viable options for our wannabe activists out there. By the way, you will acknowledge, with me, again that this applies to the Democratic party? No, it doesn't, actually. They are not compromised by the elites, they are run by the elites, to it's a tougher nut to crack. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I’m not saying that Starhawk doesn’t care, it’s how she cares.<hr></blockquote> Well, no, you were...as your rather colorful description of her above makes quite clear. However, it is also clear that only certain types of activism count for you. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> In fact, in the west, their (meaning new agers) ranks seem to draw primarily from the sons and daughters of the more privileged classes, and those seeking to ascend to those classes – most often from the more liberal bourgeoisie and intellectual elements, and those of us who could afford to go to liberal arts colleges, etc.<hr></blockquote> Guess what, you've just described most of the American left leadership and that of the Democratic party. And since you don't like them, maybe it's a good thing the New Agers opted out to give a little room for genuine working class leadership. The movements you are part of do have genuine working class leadership, I assume. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Isn’t it funny contrasting your view of the electoral process with the fact that most African Americans still come out in force to vote. I’d hate to hear you claim that they are any more naïve then the average modern north american leftist?<hr></blockquote> I don't know what percentage of "modern north american leftists" vote, so I can't make the comparison. Besides, that wasn't really your point was it? Your point is to suggest I'm an elitist racist. Nice. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You don’t seem to have a very detailed understanding of how political fraud is actually working, and at what actual technical level of roll-out computer vote-fraud is at today. I wish you could see that, despite the fraud, and assassinations, and the control of the secret societies, there is still a major battle looming to preserve our democratic systems, and you are simply walking away in the hottest part of the battle. By the way, this seems to be an example of the same kind of simplistic either/or dualism you are infected with when you are talking about religion. The next stage ought to be understanding synthesis. Elections are corrupted = walk away = give up.<hr></blockquote> Actually, I have no problem with efforts at electoral reform, if they start with the premise that as it stands now, they are broken to the point of irrelevance..no, worse than irrelevance, as they serve to legitimize the illegitmate. IN other words, I don't believe we'll have much luck fixing the electoral system BY USING THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM. Now pay attention. The dualism is yours. YOU are the one who has said that not trusting in electoral politics means walking away. You seem to know the history of the left...tell me, were there not OTHER means of working for social change besides elections? Direct Action, strikes, civil disobedience, etc. Did the civil rights movement get African Americans the right to vote by voting? Come ON. And it's not just the election fixing...remember, buying elections is also an issue...as well as the fact that, when it comes to the important stuff, most of the Dems are just as bad. No, worse, because they are SUPPOSED to be watching after the working class interests as they continually sell them out , as eloquently pointed out by you. In fact, I can't top how you wrote bout it. And can we make up our minds about this? According to you, it is up to the political activist classes or at least those within that class not tainted by all the things leftists get tainted by to "reach the masses" and engage in introspection as to why they can't. Well, how 'bout dem pagans? Are they a "fringe movement"? As such, surely they really aren't affecting things much with their lack of activism, or, at least engaging in activism that does not meet your approval. On the other hand, if they are a larger movement, then they are part of the masses the political activist classes are charged with "reaching". (Keep in mind that there are left philosophies that suggest that the working class does not need to be led by a vanguard of bourgois activists, but that when the internal contradictions get bad enough, they are quite capable of looking after their own interests.) I've suggested that Christians suffer from some of the same malaise you attribute to pagans. I'll stipulate that for this paragraph, and say, why is it okay to criticize pagan rituals as "silly" because they aren't active the way you think they should be while you don't do the same to Christians. Why don't we hear: "Those Christians, rather than building a working class movement are busy saying silly prayers, singing insipid hymns and filling up the collection plates with money that should be going to support organizing efforts."? You know, what pagan activists do is two fold. One, use their spiritual practices "silly rituals" to support their activist efforts (let's ignore, just for the moment, that their activism is not of the correct type in your view) and two, actually see that their religious practice, particularly as it relates to nature and the interconnectedness of all life, actually requires activism. Now, next time you sing "We shall overcome" at a rally of some sort, or bow your head when a preacher calls on God for help in the struggle for justice or quotes scripture which calls on God's faithful to care for the poor...how is this different? I mean, besides the fact that you don't approve of the pagan rituals. I will agree that the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions have a far stronger inherent message concerning social justice issues. In fact, if this were a solid majority view among Christians, maybe I'd still be one. But people can come to activism from all varieties of experience. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Bet you’d be hard-pressed to find 5 out of 50 of them (I think you meant anti-globalization protesters here, not pagans) who would be able to muster any credibility when speaking at a town meeting, or in front of a “mainstream” church group<hr></blockquote> Yep, acceptance by mainstream churches and "town halls" has always been the mark of legitimate political views. Our "town halls" around here are clamoring for speakers who are opposed to the war in Iraq, but only if they are authentic leftists and not counter-cultural leftists. Yep...mainstream churches and town halls love their non-counter-cultural leftist speakers. So, if the new agers are fringe...then who cares what they do? If there are lots of them, then you'll need to consider that they are part of the "masses" and ridiculing their religious practices is not really an effective outreach tool. So now, let me ask you this. After you post your list of approved activist approaches and the second list of left organizations that are not tainted by foundation funding and "counter culturalism" which receive your seal of approval (and one last aside, can you PLEASE define counter-cultural leftists...if a union organizer eats tofu...are they okay in your book?) and then you meet a self-described pagan who participates in some of your approved activities...will you talk about her spirituality the way you've done here? Will you tell her her rituals are silly? That her spirtuality is invalid and that you don't approve of her name? Way to build those bridges.

by **proldic** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:47 pm

you must be real smart... I'll read your reply, and then determine if I'm capable of going any further. I see you mention Buddhism: <a href="http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm">www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm</a>

by **Dreams End** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:11 pm

Yeah...A LOT more there than I knew about, but I've been pretty disappointed to find out about some of those items I knew...mainly that the DL had CIA ties. I know more about Mahayana, to be honest...but no expert on any of it. I mentioned Sokko Gakai...which allegedly stems from Nicheren Buddhism. Nicheren himself, as I mentioned, was rather xenophobic. On the other hand, a buddhist named Fuji went and lived with Gandhi a few years and founded Nipponzan Myohoji...centered on creating world peace. Sokko Gakai...from the same roots, has alleged links to fascism and the Yokuza. You know, I was going to add to my post that I'm "compromised" in everything I do. The corporate/intelligence/"elite" hand is in everything I touch. Maybe, just MAYBE I'll be so enlightened one day that I can act in a way that is pure from that influence. But OTHERS won't be...and I'll need to work with them, too.

by **proldic** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:23 pm

I - and most other people - have no problem lumping you all together. So, I’m sorry that you can’t seem to get over it and move on to a higher level of discussion – the level of actually doing something to help your fellow man. Uncross your arms and start digging. You sound like an immature stubborn priviledged white boy who isn’t being allowed to play with his toys. You want to argue that Pagans have some special obligation to be more political than Christians because we should "expect more of leftists" but that is rather circular reasoning. It’s just that they you talk so much shit about wanting a better world, and then proceed to do nothing real about it – oh except for supporting the protest scene with ritual. Circular reasoning? You’re using pretzel logic to ignore the rather obvious nature of my claims (to anybody with their heads not up in the clouds). Why don't we hear: "Those Christians, rather than building a working class movement are busy saying silly prayers, singing insipid hymns and filling up the collection plates with money that should be going to support organizing efforts."? It’s almost as if you didn’t really read what I wrote. Because they did build a working class movement in this country, and they do support genuine working-class organizing, unlike the pagans. Evidently, someone forgot to tell you that corporate power now transcends national boundaries, which is why an international movement is so important. An old Trotskeyite canard that I shall sidestep due to your lack of background. Suffice to say, of course international solidarity working-class people is important. But the modern north american left isn’t working-class. Judging from what I’m hearing, I’m fairly certain you haven’t read “Trilateralism” edited by Holly Sklar. When you get done with “Webs of Power“ (It's also why America has been so deindustrialized) Wrong again. Gee, how many myths and false prophets will you repeat before you start questioning your own self? The reason NAFTA/GATT passed was entirely due to the fact that the left had abandoned trade unionism, and democratic politics en masse, due to the influence of the new age in the ‘60’s, and fought against trade protectionism. So you are wrong on that. But will it make a difference? You need something more, I can see. Listen, the failure was not to craft an international union, it was exactly the distraction of that cause that led people such as yourselves away from building domestic unions when we were looking for your help, and you are always alienating yourselves from the rank and file. Again: “…even after all the attention to the growth of populist economic desperation, all the Farm Aids, all the ”Places In the Hearts” and “The Rivers”, in the midst of a forced downsizing of America’s heartland, the left (I’m not even thinking about flaky Wiccans and what not now) stood down and sold out the plight of middle america --- big time. And then they applauded and made apologies for Waco, and PBS and Noam Chomsky and Michael Albert savged the militia movement. “Nothing here to see, folks, just a bunch of ignorant racists, move on..” That said, some New Agers look deeply into the traditions from which they borrow (even when it's rather bastardized) And then proceed to whitewash the eco-fascism, the racism, the amoralism, and then put it out on the lot with a bright, shiny tag saying “new & improved”. And anyway, who are you trying to fool here- There is no actual tradition in today’s pagan. All it is is just pouty-mouthed christian heresy. Oh yeah, they’re the new theologians, all right. And that explains why half of them work for the World Bank. I say this, because, unlike you, despite my problems with "New Agers" I don't want to stereotype. Puh-lease. No stereotyping, except everyone in the mainstream religions, who incidentally happen to be MUCH more diverse, ambivalent, and ready to question their leaders than any pagans I know, and I knoiw my share. In addition, I was quite clear that I'm not condemning all Christians by the points I'm making. Not that clear to most folks, I’d guess. Anyway, you may not condemn them, you just assume they are all right-wing – (except for Doris Day and MLK, the last good christians ever). Again, I have made this point before – you are seriously out of touch with what is happening on the ground in the movement for social change in this country. The reality is that the christians are mainly humanistic, and most of the pagans that I know are (although they have trouble coming right out and admitting it at first) naturalistic, and hence, in that particular perspective - anti-humanist. Ya know, the old human baby vs animal baby argument. Gee, who’s more caught up in the concept of original sin, christians or pagans? In today’s America, it’s your pagans. That WAS a joke, right. You really don't think someone's decision to change his or her name has any bearing on this? Not a big Malcolm X fan, I take it? The joke’s on you, swami. I stand by what I said - What is more important? Here’s something radical for you post-modern freaks to chew on: different time, different place, different race. Maybe a different judgement? Hmm… Yeah, that Starhawk, she really suffered under her slave name. She is an ineffective sham for suckers like the people you are defending. The system promotes her. Her name alienates her from most normal people. Maybe I should change my name to “Fuck You” – why? - because it’s my decision, who cares what everyone thinks? Malcolm X was murdered by the FBI because he was moving away from superstitious belief, and into an alliance with the -- Christian -- MLK, and they were both talking pragmatic struggle and secular socialism in the months before they were murdered. My guess is he probably wouldn’t have even named himself that had he known then what he said he was finding out later. However, it is also clear that only certain types of activism count for you. Yup. So does distinguishing between poisonous and non-poisonous varieties of mushrooms. Guess what, you've just described most of the American left leadership and that of the Democratic party. And since you don't like them, maybe it's a good thing the New Agers opted out to give a little room for genuine working class leadership. The movements you are part of do have genuine working class leadership, I assume. I see that our mutual reference points for this discussion are drifting further and further away from each other. I wish I could get through to you, really. Maybe I should try to be more meta-physical? Listen, I know I’m frustrated, but it never ceases to amaze me how a person who is so tellingly from a western college-educated background can be so ignorant of the most important historical truths in their own lives. FACT: The left in this country up until the ‘60’s was working class. It wasn’t until after the purges that the CIA began it’s magick.The modern counter-culture and left-wing activist opposition in the United States is guilty of the same criminal pathologies that affect the rest of the major institutions in capitalist societies. Obviously, I argue that they are more guilty. For they − the anointed opposition − are pretenders. They put up a front of egalitarianism, while actually personally benefiting from ruthless class privilege as much as the rest of privileged society. They claim to speak for all peoples, while refusing to seriously confront elitism, insularity, and tokenism among themselves. You youself are infected with a virulent strain of “anything goes” anarcho-libertarian amoralism that prevents you from organizing the masses of people. Excuse their failings with "good intentions", but I think most modern pagans in this country are unconsciously guided by the worst instincts, whereas most modern progressive Christians and Jews and Muslims are unconscioulsy guided by the best instincts of justice, brotherhood, and human rights. Too harsh? I don’t know where you live or how much of an opportunity you have to explore things, but try taking a deeper look at the organizational politics. What do the people who make up the majority of today’s north American activist set have in common? By and large, they’re college-educated, middle- to upper-class, new-age, and white. Who leads “The Movement” in this country today? Who has the most opportunities to “get ahead” in the movement”? Almost exclusively, it’s privileged whites. Especially those from the upper middle-class and above, where horizons are virtually unlimited, one has the freedom to choose "esoteric" studies, “unrealistic” paths, the opportunity to go to expensive schools − the privilege of not having to constantly worry about want or illness. A privilege that is undeserved − gained not by the hardest work or equal exchange, but by a historical and continuing state of slavery, looting, and murder. By ruthless and unfair competition, putting others down, back-stabbing, ass-kissing, stepping on toes, levereging privilege, “playing the game”. Privilege that was gained not by merit or competence, but largely by birth − race and class. Passed on from one generation to the next − accepted and largely unchallenged − through hereditary inheritance and beneficial tax structures. Many people see this privilege as due mainly to the imperialist subjugation of the third world, while missing how much of it actually subsists upon the backs of our neighbors in this country. The class system in the U.S. depends on the maintenance of a surplus pool of labor here at home, and the conscious and purposeful “downsizing” and marginalizing of entire swaths of our own population. The privileged background only exists in it’s current form due to an aggressive war against certain segments of our own society. Better neighborhoods and towns are carved out at the cost of the poor and lower-middle class, in city after city, town after town. Today, this means unequal political representation on the state and federal level, regressive taxation, unfair property valuations, land grabbing and eminent domain, “planned shrinkage” and “containment” of entire communities, disparity of services, vote fraud and voter suppression, redistricting and gerrymandering of voting blocs, pirating of funds for schools and community health care, monopolizing higher education and training resources, forced mandates of free-market economic destabilization, bank redlining, denial of credit, predatory lending, anti-small entrepreneur zoning, biased hiring, purposeful under-employment, “nimby”-based environmental racism and bought-off “toxic towns”, drug flooding and drug wars, withholding of pro-bono legal representation, sentencing disparities, endorsement of law enforcement solutions and support for the probation and prison complex, pushing iatrogenic medicine, medical experimentation, and mass-sterilization, etc.. That’s how nice homes and good neighborhoods exist. From Rand Corporation study, to legislation, to brutal destruction of entire communities, the path of privilege is cleared with the blood of the working-class in this country. From this background the modern activist clique is formed. It’s painfully obvious that the real revolutionaries – working-class people – are largely excluded from involvement in the movement by “circumstance”. Unconscious guilt about this uncomfortable fact combined with a barely-veiled elitism causes the privileged activists to lie to themselves and to bullshit others. To justify their positions, they spend a lot of time trumpeting their supposed revolutionary effectiveness, and convincing themselves of their superior revolutionary consciousnesses. Opportunities to effect serious change within the leftist political movement are not based on genuine effectiveness, merit or any particular great knowledge. They’re based on how well a person can self-promote: how well they schmooze, if they can talk up a big game, if they’re good at telling people what they want to hear, if they’re from similar backgrounds, etc.. Real substance matters little, and track record doesn’t matter at all. It doesn’t matter if they can’t relate to everyday life, if they’re ignorant of history, or if they’re totally separated from any working-class consciousness. Even a string of counter-revolutionary failures won’t hinder them − as long as they know how to “play the game”. Is it some unalterable systemic fate that relegates to the sidelines those that should be leaders, while promoting the less effective? Or is it a giant incestuous network, a nepotism of friends cloaked in a cultural exclusivity (if you are not “pagan-positive”, if you are christian, if you don’t speak the “language” of the movement culture, if you challenge orthodoxy, if you didn’t go to college, if you work full-time, if you choose monogamy, if you eat meat, if you’re not comfortable operating by consensus, if you seem like a “straight”, etc.)? Undeniably, it is working-class people who have always had the most common sense, and who are the most resourceful and realistic when engaged in struggle. But privileged activists see themselves as the vanguard, unconsciously believing that working peoples can’t be trusted yet, that working folks just aren’t “radical”. Because of their privilege, the activist gains instant “revolutionary cred”. It becomes: how long have you been in the movement, who do you know, how many organizations have you been involved with, how much press have you got, how many protests have you been to, how many times have you been arrested? Another question might be: how long have you been away from the shop floor? The majority of the counter-culture seems to be on a permanent vacation from the real world − at least the world that everyday people share. Some young folks think they are revolutionary because they temporarily forsake the superficial trappings of their backgrounds – giving up possessions, sleeping on couches, not showering, eating “dumpstered” food, etc.. No sane person strives for that existence. For the poor, simplicity is the everyday struggle to maintain some decent standard of comfort, cleanliness, and health, while tending to the needs of children, sick, and the elders. It is focused on maximizing every penny, every scrap. But it is also about living a bountiful and joyful life, and taking pride in their possessions and homes. For the vast majority of young north American counter-culutal types it’s all just a grand ride on the backs of privilege. Sure, they suffer from alienation. Sure, they feel like they’re “on the right side”. But deep in their hearts they know where their bread is buttered. And, as I said before, just like most of the old hippies before them, they will eventually end up returning to the fold. So what are the modern north American counter-culturalists doing with the positions they have attained through their privilege? Too many times they squander precious resources and energy. They project thoughtless messages and transmit bad memes into the population. They maintain a stubborn myopia, repeatedly engaging in hasty, misdirected, and ineffective action. They know they can afford to fail. They generally end up doing more harm than good, often driving the masses of people further away from them, and permanently burning certain ideological bridges to future mass-organizing. So perhaps we should be thankful that they tend to stay strictly within their “comfort zone”. The majority of modern activists in this country hesitate to push the envelope beyond their own personal worlds, always self-determining the moments or conditions of their own sacrifice. How many of them actually organize worker-to-worker on a daily basis? How many are really prepared to roll up their sleeves and do that difficult work on a regular basis? How many of them really value the importance of being in the streets and the barrios, and engaging everyday working-class people face-to-face − on the level? Not many. Most of them don’t even know how to relate to regular people. Hey, it’s not easy − if you don’t respect their values, if you don’t speak their language, if you don’t really understand their positions in the world as working peoples and the lives they have been handed, if you look down on them because they won’t “break out of the mold” and embrace the “counter”-culture, if you don’t have a real understanding of how completely the system relegates people to their fates, if you can’t see how your privilege has allowed you to think differently, if you don’t see how your own co-option is evident to them, if you can’t value their wisdom and daily resistances, if you don’t have empathy. We should see working people as potential allies in a war that has yet to be fought. Not many activists are spending the time to create a progressive reality that the masses of people can relate to. Instead they settle for an insular existence in a modern lefty family of privileged children, banding together in rituals, protests and closed-door meetings, essentially in isolation from the masses. Sure, some leftists despair about not being able to organize the working-class, “minorities” − “middle America”. But most project a sanctimonious elitism. They can’t understand why the “miseducated” are fooled so easy, and why the working class won’t “see the light” and follow them. They have a real hard time understanding how it is their image, outlook, orthodoxies, and lifestyle choices which limit their social intercourse to the choir. What this all means is that the modern north American left – most especially the new age wing – and that is mainly y’all pagans - is made up of those who are LEAST effective, while the real potential pool of great revolutionaries are ignored. So in the most important sense, the new spiritual pagan movement proves to be no more enlightened than any of the other institutions of western society. Oh yeah, no doubt it’s a custom-designed product of that very same system. And so much fresher and relevant then those old tired horses. Those are going out to pasture as we argue over this. What a joke! The average modern north American leftist is, at heart, far more like other north Americans of privilege then they are like any leftist from the “third world”. They’re not even like most of the leftists from the third-world in this country. They suffer from the same sense of entitlement, ignorance of history, knee-jerk rejection of Marxist analysis, ingrained racism, arrogance, and lack of respect for tradition as most other white north americans. This is what separates them from the world movement they profess to be one with. Of course, as in the rest of our society, a façade has been created, and token efforts are made. The leftist thinks facing up to their privilege is easy as turning on a light switch. They think they can be cleansed of their guilt simply by being more “spiritual”. They want to banish hierarchy right now, not accept a new one. “Diversity” is the goal, not repentance. Under the banner of multi-culturalism, awkward attempts are made to “reach out”. Some take peyote and give themselves henna tattoos. Others become “revolutionary tourists”. Occasionally they listen to world music, but they don’t usually understand the meaning of the songs. What you need to face is the fact that you are a certified product of the society you are rebelling against. you examine the structure of the system you're fighting. It is not necessarily about being a member of “The Movement”. What it is about is bringing a higher consciousness to everyday life. Internalizing the suffering of billions of human beings. Accepting responsibility for feeding off that suffering. Honoring knowledge by actually learning it. And this is where the real struggle is. It begins with a great sense of patience and humility. The movement did not begin with Seattle, nor the Sixties, nor even with Marx himself. The war against “capitalism” is an ancient struggle. We need to feel the depth of that revolutionary history, and not just for the sake of pride. Instead, we must be humble and realize that we are mere children in this struggle - and no better than any of the millions who have died fighting oppression before us. We are just cogs in a wheel that pre-dates us, and will out last us. Once we free ourselves from the privileged fantasy of being the ones to “tear down the wall”, we will be embraced by the beauty of something ancient and true. Sounds new-age enough for ya? Even Marx himself only partially grasped the real significance of what he was writing − how through the science of dialectical materialism he had revealed the nature of human history − channeling the voice of an ancient struggle over the existence of the systems of survival that had sustained life for the vast majority of the world’s population. Your very existence was made possible by the genocide of more than 80 million resisting peoples in Mexico, the U.S., and Canada between the years 1500-1600. The foundation of your modern industrial life rests upon the murder of an additional 30-60 million in India, Brazil, and China alone, between 1876-1902. I’m not suggesting more repressed guilt, I’m suggesting more open guilt. Guilt that leads to real-life changes in behavior, that leads us to recognize that what we are doing thoughtlessly now − with all our “good intentions” − is the same as acting as half-human monsters. These pathologies are having deep and long-term negative effects on our journey to a revolutionary future. They are preventing the organization of the masses of working-class people in this country now, and they are making it impossible for us to ever truly unite, on a basis of equality, with the vast majority of people on this planet in the future. Don’t let this simply touch a nerve every once in a while, then drift back into the confusion and distraction - the intellectual fraud of feeling that “at least Starhawk’s doing something”. What lies ahead is a personal revolution against our cultural upbringings. It's about making peace with the inevitable repercussions that go along with confronting and overcoming privilege. For many of us, it means we must separate ourselves from our pasts, and reject the “counter-culture” we came up in − and have grown accustomed to. To really change we must consciously move beyond what we have previously seen as our culture − our social scene, our art, our music, our circles. We must move on to something truly fresh and new, not by acquisition and mimicry dressed up as spiritual self-righteousness. It’s not about just paying lip service. It is about finally accepting judgment: ignorance of history, malformed actions, partial understandings, rushed jobs, un-critical acceptances, and cut-off reasoning do serious and irreparable harm to the struggle. So let’s not just reflexively throw ourselves out there at every turn. We need to stop playing gambler with the results of our actions. Nothing will be easy, so we shouldn’t necessarily choose what seems to be the “easiest” path at the time. All of the paths we will face will entail equal negatives, high prices, and hidden sacrifices. Nothing good comes without cost. We can’t have it all ways. Period. This is not some frustrating non-conclusion to be dismissed as meaningless. Choice entails loss. If we choose to immerse ourselves in the current movement, we miss working with the masses. If we choose to make our self-identity with the trappings of the counter-culture, then we loose the chance to meet with working-class people on equal terms. If we want liberty for certain peoples, we must regulate the freedom of others. If we choose to lead a feckless life now, we must pay in hardship when we are older. If we choose resistance to the system, eventually we must relinquish the luxury of pacifism. And so on. What is to be embraced? What is to be left behind? Let’s face it, and learn to say “good-bye” to things. We must understand that truly "spiritual" knowledge is not a commodity, to be instantly acquired and used for immediate benefit and gain. As you say, that's not just a Christian thing by any means.When we contemplate belief and action, we must be ruthlessly self-reflective, and really desire constructive criticism. I don’t see that with the pagans one iota, nor with you personally. Have you really thought about the negative effects of the new-age as much as you’ve dwelled on the evils of christianity? I don’t think so. Or not at least until I came along. I can tell by your reaction that you hadn’t even dreamed there could be another side to the coin beyond your teddy-boogy–bear of “christian fundamentalism”. Keep clutching tight, and put your heads back under the sheets. If you have to look them straight in the eye, --THEY’VE GOT YOU. I mean, c’mon, this “new-age” should mean facing our deficits, and admitting what we can’t − and shouldn’t − be doing. From now on we must make peace with giving every decision the time it needs to process, following it “all the way out”. The end result will be less quantity, but more quality. “Artisan” activism, if you will. It’s about not settling for “good enough”. Even if this means sometimes not “seizing the time” − even when it seems so crucial to act right now. That is where the biggest traps are laid, and where the gravest errors are made. We should work to remove ourselves from the mindset the system wants us to be stuck in: weak, hyper-mediated, in fast-forward, without foundation, ill-informed, and reactionary. You lay fertile soil for the bad meme-makers and gatekeepers. The system is quickly mastering the modern cultural-psychological realm, and the battle to shape the north American mindset has practically been fought and won. So this obviously isn’t the time to be ineffective or apathetic. Our every movement carries great significance. It is in the heat of the battle where it is most crucial to remain calm. The battlefield today is in our own minds. It's our duty to remove what is unreal, take off the veil, and operate as truly grass-roots people, each of us naturally and un-selfconsciously transmitting the voices of the ancestral history of struggle to the next generation. We desperately need to lessen our dependence on superstition. I don’t have a problem if you want to be a pagan, just keep it to yourself, and sit down over here with the rest of us. Free yourself from the constant search for novelty in your life. You must remove yourself from all traces of a falsely passionate and morally meaningless life. Watch how your associations are effecting your credibility among the masses of working-class people. You must recognize the fact that everyone adjusts to society, in big and in subtle ways, intentionally and unconsciously. Everyone chooses what to say, and how to say it. Everyone temporizes their appearances, modifies their interactions, stakes their ground of identity − sometimes the way they want, but most of the time the way they don’t intend. Hence, I say “get over it”. We should recognize that fact, and consciously choose the most long-term tactically effective place to “be”, not letting the winds of “the movement” guide us. We need to make peace with the isolation from our backgrounds and seeming allies. Confronting the orthodoxy that holds back revolution is the hardest of all the battles. As this discussion shows, if we really begin to challenge the power of The Gatekeepers in an effective way, we will have to face becoming a lonesome voice on the modern north American scene for a while. We should resolve to help each other live free from the confining fetters of mystic ideology, not lead people straight into a new web by so desperately fleeing from the old. If we build upon a solid MORAL foundation, display tenacity, and work hard, a positive future will come faster than we think. Not by resting on our spiritual laurels, but by transforming into something greater than even Starhawk could ever imagine. I'm out.

by **Avalon** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:07 pm

Out of breath? "You want everything to be equal. But all is not the same. There are value judgments to be made, and a hierarchy of values to be determined." And you're the one to make those judgements, and you're going to scold and shake your finger angrily at those who aren't doing things the way you think they should, as you've been doing here? Does your handle indicate that you're the prole who's to be the dictator? I'm puzzled that with all there is to do out there to get a just and equitable society, you are so eager to micromanage the way someone else approaches the problem. If you think Starhawk is not actually having any effect on anything, why don't you go pick on someone else you think might have a chance of turning Oakland into some combination of the Garden of Eden and the Peaceable Kingdom? And by the way, I think you forgot to tell us what it is you do that is changing the world better than the rest of us are doing. "Maybe I should change my name to “Fuck You” – why? - because it’s my decision, who cares what everyone thinks?" Sounds appropriate, with all the condescending hectoring you've been doing, and the ludicrous and disrespectful assumptions about other people you've been expressing. For those who are watching some of these conversations from the sidelines, you may have noticed that there are a couple of people here who have been spending a disturbing amount of time trash-talking about Paganism in general and Wicca in specific. They've made a lot of generalized statements which they don't back up with specifics, and seem to be operating on the principle that if you throw a lot of mud some of it is bound to stick. I've been publicly involved with Wicca for the past 18 years, and before that was privately Pagan since my childhood. It's my religion, and is the only religion I've ever been involved with, other than a couple of years in high school when I was a member of the Unitarian youth group. My being Pagan is no secret in my community, and I choose to have any public involvement I have as a witch under my full name. I tend to have more close contacts with coven-trained Pagans rather than those who brought themselves up by their own bootstraps. But I can say without hesitation that most of the witches I know are fully involved in the political, educational and cultural spheres of their communities, even if they don't have signs on them saying "look at me I'm a witch." All religious movements -- and any other organized groups or long-term activities -- have their strengths and weaknesses. It's no big deal, it's part of the territory. People choose to get involved if it seems to meet their needs, and leave if it doesn't. Paganism is a demographic blip compared to all the mainstream religious infrastructure out there. Chill out. If we're that inherently ineffectual, don't bother wasting such a lot of energy on ranting about us. Surely there are more constructive things to do with your time, and bigger enemies to take down. In the interests of disclosure, I should probably add here that while I have taken about 7 days worth of workshop with Starhawk over the past 18 years and we are friendly with some of the same people, we're not personal friends.

by **Dreams End** » Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:12 pm

Really first rate stuff, there proldic. Most of what you wrote, as I've tried to point out and as you are clear about, is a critique of the "American left" in general. Because the new agers, in your view, don't participate in politics at all, really, that criticism really sort of sidesteps them as they have yet to even make it to "left" status. I just want to say a few things as we wrap this up. First, I'm not a pagan. I've repeated that several times. My wife is. My original political involvement was with the CWP back in the eighties. They were Maoists, comrade....though they transformed into I don't even know what the hell before they sort of disappeared. As a side note, to inject a bit of humor, I was working in a youth group with these guys well before I knew they were communists. However, a rather devout friend of mine in high school kept asking me questions about communism and even gave me a book on Marx (of whom I was ignorant at the time.) Later, he began spreading rumors about me. After high school, when I actually joined the CWP, but without ever having spoken to him, he called up my Mom to say he was worried about me because I'd joined the communist party. Yep, he had to have been a nice young informant...probably just for our local police department. Did you catch the irony? My first book of Marx came from a police informant. Your critique of the left is a valid one. And just really well written and thought out., other than the occasional ad hominems. The confusion in our discussion has come because you shifted the ground of the debate quite a bit. Well, that's okay...it, too, is fertile ground. The original position you brought up was that the elites were attempting to inject paganism (and I learned you meant New Age thought in general, at least some of the time) into our society in order to undermine potentially more effective efforts at social change. There were two parts to your claim. 1. That this was a plan by the elites...and you never got around to supporting that claim at all, really. Well, it became a long and complicated discussion. Claim 2. is that pagans and all you lump with them are, as a rule and as a group, not only too self-involved to be truly relevant or effective in political struggle. this was the heart of our discussion. You don't seem to see them as "victims" of this elite manipulation you suggest in claim one, but we'll let that pass. My response to all this is that our culture of hypercapitalism has infected many forms of spirituality. To be honest, I can't stand most "new agers". They are often just as self involved as you say. The only caveat to that is that they are not the only ones and not all of them are. In fact, you continued to misunderstand, despite several direct explanations, my views on Christianity. To say I call ALL Christians right wing is ridiculous as a simple scan of my posts will indicate. You are just being silly there. I have repeatedly explained...well, I'll just pull the quote: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In addition, I was quite clear that I'm not condemning all Christians by the points I'm making. I'm simply trying to suggest that your focus on pagans as the source of all political ills (I know I'm exaggerating...but just to make the point) is misguided.<hr></blockquote> Can you see that? I'm simply suggesting that your concerns about ALL pagans applies to MANY (not all...don't even need to say most, since there are so many) Christians. I think Christianity has been manipulated in ways you suggest Pagans are being. This does nothing to disparage the real struggles of progressive christians. I've even got an article about my own spiritual/political struggles in an old edition of "The Other Side" a Christian progressive activist magazine. I worked at, essentially, a Dorothy Day Catholic worker (only it's not Catholic...Open Door in Atlanta). Ack..enough of that. I don't know how I got into the idea that I have to justify my life to you. Good God, man, I went on pilgrimage to Thomas Merton's monastery in Louisville. I could never be Catholic for a variety of reasons but there are the elements there that are closest to what I longed for in an organized religion...a deep sense of mystery and respect for mysticism AND a history of not only progressive struggle but actually, at times, revolutionary. (notwithstanding the other side of the coin...embrace of authoritarian rulers, collaboration with nazi's, etc.) (oh, for those of you wondering why I continue to post at length about this...I'm finding this an excellent way to work out some ideas, so if anyone is bothering to follow this...well...sorry!) Now, I want to respond to a few jibes thrown in among your otherwise quite sterling marxist (not a put down in my lexicon) critique of the American left. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>An old Trotskeyite canard that I shall sidestep due to your lack of background. <hr></blockquote> Well, you aren't having a real "leftist" debate unless someone calls you a trot. As an interesting aside, I think that an actual Trotskyite party, the SWP, was one of THE most infiltrated parties via Cointelpro. They are also illustrative of some issues among the Marxist left (or what's LEFT of that left) and I may get to that in a bit, as you seem to be demonstrating it here. One of the things that put me off from what you might consider the more genuine left is the sectarianism...How many left parties have split over political disagreements and then split again? I constantly ran into parties and members who simply spent their time critiquing that others were not "pure" enough. I realize that many of those splits got some help from the FBI, but, to paraphrase Che, if the American Left formed a firing squad, it would be a circle. And the far left is extremely compromised, my friend. I've seen entire "revolutionary" parties which seem to have no other purpose than to disrupt other leftists, ostensibly because they were too "liberal". I've seen other such parties rise to suspicious heights, achieving national recognition and consistently getting their demos on Cspan. All of them, I would say, use pretty much the same rhetoric you've shared with us today. I'll bet you that many of their members use that rhetoric quite sincerely, but I"m suspicious nonetheless. (Another humorous aside: I was at a conference one time when I was in college. The RCP was behind a national call for a "No Business as Usual Day." One of the RCP leaders was there...I can't remember who. He calmly explained his strategy: everyone get a gun and when the time is right, start shooting. I asked him how we'd know the time was right...he said, "I'll tell you." Okley, dokley there, comrade.) I actually got rather disillusioned with the leftists who talk like you. I found them to be incredibly insular. Also, of course, is that inherent contradiction: the working class can lead the revolution, they just need our party to come and "reach" the masses . I really can't say I ever met a Marxist oriented party which was not somehow planning to be the vanguard of the working class. Otherwise, why do we need to "reach" the masses? Meanwhile, they'd sit around pissing everyone else off in various coalitions or whatever as they'd pull this "more working class than thou" stuff. I found it divisive and not really uniting at all. I also found a lot of them were not working class either, despite the rhetoric. Whether they engaged in the deeper introspection about this that you have, I don't know, but my impression from their words and actions is that they did not. I love this sentence from you: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You youself are infected with a virulent strain of “anything goes” anarcho-libertarian amoralism that prevents you from organizing the masses of people.<hr></blockquote> LOL. I didn't know it was my job to organize the masses. That's kind of a big job. Plus, I'm the liberal elite, remember? I SHOULDN'T be LEADING, I should be following, eh? And anyway, sarcasm aside you DON'T want me leading the masses. I assure you. The masses will side with me on this one! So anyway, I found the secular far left to be insular and also rather "elitist" in their own way. I am really hopeful that's not what's going on where you were. I also found them really heavily infiltrated and that was a pain in the ass. So I've picked and chosen my places of involvement. I'm sure I'm not "pure" enough for you, but then again, I suppose I ought not to let a stranger on a bulletin board dictate how I live. It's funny, you accused me of being disparaging of others...particularly Christians and "red staters" (or is it blue...anyway the states where the election was fixed for Bush...I get the colors confused.) And yet, I've patiently explained that my critique of christians was just to demonstrate that the factors you were laying solely at the feet of new agers existed elsewhere...in this case, within strains of the dominant religion. I took pains to explain this did not mean that ALL Christians were this way. I've provided some additional examples and even some snippets of my own journey among Christian activists, to help illustrate my point. You, on the other hand, condemn in broad, sweeping strokes. ALL "new agers" (without even defining the term) all pagans (without defining the term) and all "counter-cultural leftists" (without defining the term.) I suggested that a union leader who's vegetarian might not pass muster under this classification. How dare he condemn the meat eating masses. He needs to BE like them to be accepted BY them. Some view of the working class you have there. You know, I walked half way across the country with a Buddhist monk on a "peace walk" (don't even bother with your opinion of that...we already know it.) We walked throughout the Southeast, in some of the most heavily militarized and poverty afflicted areas of the country. He was QUITE different from the "mainstream" there. He wore an orange robe and marched while beating a prayer drum and chanting. And although one guy shot at us (over our heads) most people were quite open...we even got donations from people calling themselves "conservative" who respected our convictions. So I gues s my experience says you don't not have to be of the mainstream religion to be accepted by the "masses". We spoke at churches in tiny towns all over the South. We were invited to lodge and share supper with all kinds of different people. I think you can be outside the "mainstream" and still find community and solidarity there. I'm going to give one more aside...and it's the kind of thing that happened to me often enough, during this walk and after, that I really began to form ideas that whatever is going on here is beyond just the materialistic. As we were on our walk we'd gotten as far as Kansas. It was f*&^ing hot, like 110 and we were out of water. We were IN the HEARTLAND baby..nothing but farms, with maybe a mile between houses at times. We were also out of water (I can't explain that bit of stupidity...I think we just figured there'd be more places to fill the canteens.) We finally saw someone watering in their front yard. We approached and asked to fill our canteen. he said fine. Then if we could eat lunch under his tree. Sure. He was very friendly and eventually invited us in to eat lunch with his family. Now there were only two of us for the majority of our trip. But there was to have been a third, a man named Norbert who went by "No Nukes Norb." (we know how you feel about name changes...so you can skip that comment too.) He got invited to some peace conference in Russia or something and couldn't come on this trip. We had, as we always did, a fine conversation with these folks. Sure, a Japanese Buddhist monk with robes and tennis shoes was a little odd, but the family were warm and gracious. In fact, they even had a crazy cousin who was a peace activist. Maybe we'd heard of him, they hoped, because a family member had died and they needed to tell him and didn't know where he was. His name was Norbert, but he went by "No Nuke Norb." Through us, they were able to get the message through. So my growing sense of "something moreness" grew, while my particular loyalty to institutionalized religions dimmed. ( I did not attempt to join nor was I encouraged to join this Buddhist order. They simply don't operate like that.) At the same time, I began to read and find that this game is fixed in ways far deeper than I had imagined. As you suggest, the "opposition", both Democratic and "leftist" was not always what they seemed (knowingly or not...I'm sure not for most involved). The levels and methods of control of both individuals and "the masses" was incredibly sophisticated, and it in no way disparages those masses to suggest that these sophisticated methods often work. So I applaud your analysis, though I have less idealistic hopes that I'll be able to help "organize the masses" as you say...but if the masses are getting organized here...I'll certainly offer my assistance to the more worthy leaders. But I have come to think that there is a deeper level at work here as well...and ANYONE...ANYONE who claims to have the answers about that level...I certainly am wary of. I am not a pagan. I like the idea of "Goddess" instead of "God" and the connection to the natural cycles for ritual...but I don't practice those rituals. In fact, they make me feel a bit awkward. But then again, so does hugging strangers during the "kiss of peace" after a Christian service. Or singing hymns, for that matter. I guess I'm a little shy in that way. So I have no spiritual practice. I have no answers. I have no dogma. I have a wife I love who has been injured by sexual abuse from her father and I would NEVER EVER question her need for the feminine divine in her life. It has kept her alive. And she's a good person, despite your stereotypes. She hasn't been much of an organizer of the working class because she was often busy, doing such things as going without food so her daughter could eat after she divorced her alcoholic and emotionally abusive husband. Yep...real liberal elite, my wife. She's also been a tad busy recovering from a complete mental collapse and the discovery that the sexual abuse led her to have Dissociative Identity Disorder (former multiple personality disorder). Kinda hard to organize the masses when you have masses of people in your own head. Would you like to write to her directly and tell her how wrong her religion is? She doesn't have much recall of what all led to DID in her. But there are women on this very site who suggest that this is sometimes done deliberately by very dark and cynical forces by way of painful physical and sexual abuse. Some of THESE women become pagans to find some healing. And these women, too, do not pass muster with you. You mock them. You shun them. You condemn them. Your commitment to social change is wonderful. Your recruiting tactics leave a little to be desired.

Are you a good witch or a bad witch?

same time, same station

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Religious names and titles

Why is this an issue, while other religious names and titles

Re: Why is this an issue, while other religious names and ti

A maze of contradictions

wow that was fast

buddhism

Sermon on the mount

Duct-tape the proletariat

Peace

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