Are you a good witch or a bad witch?

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Re: wicca

Postby biaothanatoi » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:18 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Hinduism definitely has goddesses, but some religions such as Hinduism are so culturally specific</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>All religions are culturally specific. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Still, all the priests are men, no?</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Nope. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I'm not aware that Buddhism has an emphasis on the feminine, as Buddha was male (the human one), or on nature.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>There are a variety of Buddhist traditions, many with a polytheistic belief system. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Confucianism is right out altogether when it comes to goddess worship</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Confucianism has been long integrated into indigenous polytheistic traditions. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I can't say anything about Taoism because it is the path that cannot be named.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Same above for Taoism.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Remember, it was that these alternatives were not "accessible" that was my point.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>So now something is "inaccessible" because it comes from overseas?<br><br>All those religions are practiced in America.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Never heard of Kemeticism or Asatru and the only 12 God system I can think of is those on Olympus, and I didn't think that was followed much anymore.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Kemeticism is the religion of ancient Egypt, Asatru is the religion of the Norse, and Dodekatheism is the worship of the Greek Gods - all three religions are alive and kicking. <br><br>> It's also typical of cults to have a strong central authority...and Wicca has none. <br><br>Some Wiccan groups do, and traditionally, all Wiccan groups did. Wicca as a whole does not, but they do have an established history of lying to converts, and lying to themselves, which is why I referred to a cultic milieu.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Just because some of those folks were themselves Pagan doesn't really say anything one way or the other about others who choose to call themselves pagan.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Now I've lost your point. Wicca has no relationship with historical 'witchcraft', or historical 'paganism', although Wiccans call themselves both 'witches' and 'pagans' and believe that their religion is descended from those practices ... Calling yourself something that you aren't isn't relevant? Lying about history isn't relevant?<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Who, exactly, were they burning? You'll have to educate me some on that point.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>You've lost me.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>So please don't use the bible against us.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Who is "us"? I though it was your wife who was the Wiccan. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>However, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is pretty strong stuff</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>I'm not debating the ethics of it. I'm pointing out that the "pagans" did it a lot too. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>What wiccans and many actually complain about is intolerance from fundamentalists.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Generally at every opportunity. I love the fact that you managed to work the witch hunts into this discussion.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>You can go on criticizing wicca in those harsh terms if you want.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Harsh terms? Sheesh. I'm just pointing out the gap between what they say and what they do. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I think our recent case in Louisiana shows that it's the Christian churches that may have more to worry about from your explorations than wicca.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>They had a pentagram on the floor, not a cross. <p></p><i></i>
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People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Postby Avalon » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:54 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>You didn't name your religion, though you said it was non-Christian</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Well I know what his religion is, since he has very publicly stated it in a place which would give his views maximum exposure. <br><br>So when biaothanatoi is ranting about Wicca here, think of it as the equivalent of being on a forum where religion sometimes comes up in the discussion, and a Baptist starts ranting about Catholicism and calling it a cult, or vice versa. <br><br>However, Wiccan readers should not take it personally that he doesn't think they worship the right way. Biaothanatoi harangues people who practice his own religion when they don't worship the way he thinks they should either. <br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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bio's religion

Postby Dreams End » Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:55 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well I know what his religion is, since he has very publicly stated it in a place which would give his views maximum exposure. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I don't really plan to rip it to shreds...just that it shouldn't be too hard. Using purely rational thought processes to critique spiritual practices can make any religion look bad. <br><br>As for a few comments from Bio...well, I think it will get tedious if we keep going back and forth but a few thoughts<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>All religions are culturally specific. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Sure, but some have become widespread and accomodate the cultures into which they have spread. I hate to say it but Christianity is the best example. That's why there ARE saints who used to be gods...why Christmas is in December, etc. The Romans did the same thing quite effectively. <br><br>Culturally specific doesn't mean bad, of course. <br><br>Now, there are no Taoist, Confucianist, ancient Egyptian or Greek pantheon worship services anywhere around here. Maybe they are more prevalent in Australia, I don't know. So someone could go on the net, I suppose, and dig around and come up with one's own version of these religions to practice...but isn't that dangerously close to what the Wiccans are up to, in your view? Accessible here means...what sorts of religious practices is someone in my neck of the woods likely to come across or be able to participate in and find a community of likeminded practitioners? As an added bonus, it would be nice if the religion used a language the seeker speaks. <br><br>And Asatru looks interesting, but can they support the claim that their form of worship is truly directly descended from the worship practices of the early northern Europeans, or do you imagine they had to fill in a lot of gaps due to incontinuity of practice and lack of historical records? Certainly, that's exactly what the modern "druids" are up to. That's not really so important to me, but it seems quite important to you. <br><br>Kemeticism has a much better historical record to go on (thank you, Rosetta stone) but bills itself as a "reconstructionist" religion at this site, which looks rather authoritative: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.ecauldron.com/reconegypt.php.">www.ecauldron.com/reconegypt.php.</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br><br>They look as if they do, however, go to great scholarly pains to get it accurate. I wonder if the ancient Egyptians, though, would actually recognize their practice? I'm sure the early Christians would have no idea what was going on in a modern Christian service of just about any denomination, and they have definite continuity of practice.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Still, all the priests are men, no?<br><br>Nope. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I was happy to hear that...until I looked it up. It is changing, slowly but women priests are meeting pretty stiff resistance. Here's a typical sentence from what I saw:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Within the Hindu religious order, and in common social practice, women priests have been largely disallowed from performing Hindu rituals and rites.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I note, however, that the article from the India Post, goes on to talk about how this is starting to change. It sounds like they are ahead of the Catholics in this regard. In fact, Hinduism is suffering a shortage of male priests which has helped gain acceptance for women priests, just as is Catholicism, so the Catholics would do well to pay attention.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.indiapost.com/members/story.php?story_id=1308">www.indiapost.com/members...ry_id=1308</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br><br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Wiccans call themselves both 'witches' and 'pagans' and believe that their religion is descended from those practices ... <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I guess this is where we simply have different experiences. The Wiccans..and I should really say pagans who incorporate some wiccan stuff...whom I know are FULLY AWARE that they are borrowing from different traditions and dealing with a very incomplete understanding of what the original practices from which they borrow actually consisted of. The idea is that the "goddess" has gotten represented in many ways, as have the natural cycles of the earth and practitioners tend to borrow those myths and images that feel right to them. I've noticed my own wife referring to Greek god and goddesses as well as celtic and even Egyptian. She's fully aware that this is not a single coherent system. Personally, I don't really like the mix and match style, but that's a far different criticism from what you are putting out. <br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>What wiccans and many actually complain about is intolerance from fundamentalists.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Generally at every opportunity. I love the fact that you managed to work the witch hunts into this discussion.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You brought up the biblical prohibition against witchcraft. And I'm pretty sure that was the basis on which the witch hunters burned, hanged and pressed people. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>So please don't use the bible against us.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Who is "us"? I though it was your wife who was the Wiccan. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I was speaking in the voice of what a typical Wiccan would say in my opinion, my paranoid little friend.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Harsh terms? Sheesh. I'm just pointing out the gap between what they say and what they do. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I refer to:<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>they do have an established history of lying to converts, and lying to themselves, which is why I referred to a cultic milieu.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Yeah, that's a warm and fuzzy statement. <br><br>Here's another:<br><br> <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>...self-righteous gothic teenagers and balding middle-aged occultists with a fabricated persecution complex.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I'd say harsh was an accurate portrayal of your words. If not, I guess I don't want to see harsh.<br><br>I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Wicca. And your original point that it's origins are pretty shaky is valid. But I think you win no one over to your point of view with this sort of namecalling. <p></p><i></i>
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religion

Postby jenz » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:00 pm

isn't the problem with censorship of criticism of a particular faith (here wicca), whether that censorship manifests itself as a woolly, multi culti political correctness or as specific legislation banning incitement to religious hatred, that there is no definition of faith or religion which does not permit organisations with financial, political or merely sadistic agendas equal shelter from criticism? This comment is not intended to imply that any one organisation with a genuinely spiritual mission is possessed of immunity from contamination by adherents who wish to use it for their own ends. Also, religion is not the only power base which has been assumed by men, and the reasons may run deeper than the wise witches of yore persecuted by mean johnny come lately Christians argument. <p></p><i></i>
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why leadership demands a pagan ethos

Postby proldic » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:01 pm

<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2002/01/20020107_b_main.asp">www.onpointradio.org/show...b_main.asp</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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First things first

Postby Avalon » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:43 pm

<i>isn't the problem with censorship of criticism of a particular faith (here wicca), </i><br><br>Wicca is a religion, and thus should be capitalized as you would Buddhist or Christian.<br><br>First thing to consider before philosophizing about why a particular group might censor criticism, is to find out whether that actually happened as has been claimed here by biaothanatoi.<br><br>I asked biaothanatoi some very specific questions about <br>how Wiccans are allegedly keeping members from talking about abuse within Wicca, given that anybody can hide behind a pseudonym, go on the Internet, and say whatever they please with no accountability whatsoever. <br><br>He didn't answer the first time I asked (other with an evasive and irrelevant "The same way that the Christian community prevented paedophile victims from speaking out for centuries, by harbouring a culture of willful denial"), and he didn't answer the second time I asked. <br><br>So you can imagine my surprise when I did a little elementary fact-checking about whether refusal to discuss ritual abuse is thought to be a problem in the Wiccan community, and found that biaothanatoi had actually been given carte blanche to talk about ritual abuse in the Pagan community on the website many consider to be one of the premier Pagan showcases on the Net.<br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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The NWO demands a pagan ethos...

Postby proldic » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:17 pm

tk<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2002/01/20020107_b_main.asp">www.onpointradio.org/show...b_main.asp</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>The reason I posted this was to illustrate the point that<br>it is the societal implications of adopting "Pagan/Wiccan" ethos, not the individual new-age hippy, that counts in the bigger picture. <br><br>The elites seem to have their take on what it is to be a "Pagan", and, in my mind, it's not sooo soooo far away from the beliefs I hear enunciated by my new-age mystic pagan Wiccan (and usually not so politically sophisticated) friends. The elites have no problem with all the "white witch" defenders of paganism pushing their game for them, because it's not going to matter when the "pagan ethos" takes hold over a world being driven mad. As an atheist, the grounding of the Islam-Judeo-Christian ethos is as bad as it gets, but it's also our global reality in the here-and-now. Lets work on a liberation theology, eh?<br>What about Bush trying to kill the Pope, an evil guy himself? <p></p><i></i>
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Harry Potter Matters

Postby proldic » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:27 am

Does anyone here see the significance in the fact that the establishment is pushing Harry Potter big time? Everyone (all the kids and many adults) is reading the latest in the series. The immense PR campaign promoting these books clearly reveals the top-down approach to mainstreaming the occcult. Why would anyone want to play handmaiden to that game by supporting it with anachronistic defenses of neo-paganism? <p></p><i></i>
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huh?

Postby Dreams End » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:28 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why would anyone want to play handmaiden to that game by supporting it with anachronistic defenses of neo-paganism?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I have no idea what this means. I heard of a religion in which a man was sacrificed after being tortured and that this sacrifice and torture was a part of the plan of his father, who happens to be the sole deity in this religious system. In the earlier version of the system, before the sacrifice, general human sacrifice was actually reported in their own sacred texts. In one instance this same deity asks a father to sacrifice his son on a stone altar, but after the father agrees, allows him to substitute a goat instead (or was it a sheep?)<br><br>My point is that all or our current mainline religions have dodgy beginnings. In fact, as has been pointed out, so much of Christianity has borrowed from "the pagans" that for Christians to criticize paganism from a Christian perspective is a little silly. <br><br>and "paganism" is not one system...it really stands for all the various religions which have more than one God. Some have pointed out that the roots of the word suggest rural, folk religion but we do know that there've been state pagan religions as well.<br><br>Well, guess what, criticizing some pagan religions from the past really says nothing about other pagan practices. For example, just about ANY religion that becomes the official religion of state leads to no good. Wanna criticize Roman paganism? Fine, but you must apply the same logic to Christianity after Constantine. Do the crusades invalidate ALL of Christianity...and by extension..ALL monotheistic religions (as our most basic division here is paganism=polytheistic and Judaism, Christianity, Islam are monotheistic). <br><br>Or do you find that, despite thousands of years of killing at the command of their GOD there are actually good Christians (and Jews and Muslims) and further, there are even entire currents and strains and denominations within these systems which we might acknowledge have led to good in the world. Do the crusades invalidate the civil rights movement and MLK because they come from the same religious roots, for example?<br><br>With "neo-paganism" you have the same situation, only more so. You can't break paganism down into 3 main divisions (I don't know...do the Mormons get their own division?) as we can do with monotheism...whether ancient or modern so blanket condemnations are even harder.<br><br><br>Plus, there is no religious talk in Harry Potter at all. No gods, nothing. It might be somewhat more realistic to suggest it pushes the idea of "magick", but there are folks, such as Dion Fortune, who practiced "magick" from a Christian perspective. So does the inclusion of magick alone make it pagan? Demonic? <br><br> In fact, they celebrate Christmas in the Potter books.<br><br>I think there's just some sloppy thinking here. I think that much of the concern about Satanism, etc, regardless of the factual truth of the claims, comes from Christians who see all of the various plots as primarily a move to destroy Christianity first and foremost. In that way, there's is too much conflation of "evil" and "demonic" with non-Christian. I'm sure this isn't your perspective, but it's a strong strain out there and I think that confuses the issue.<br><br>And let's also note that Satanism, in its formal sense, (as opposed to labelling anything of the "left hand path as Satanism) is actually dependent on Christianity. It is an inversion of Christianity and the worship of a figure created by Christianity...i.e. Satan. If you want to conflate Satan with pre-Christian deities of the near east...feel free..but one could easily argue that the reason Christians "converted" those gods into Satan had more to do with wanting to be the dominant relion in the area and less to do with whether the original conception of these pre-Christian gods was anything resembling "Satan." <br><br>Now, you want to argue that modern pagans have no historical continuity with the pre-Christian ones? Well, you're on firmer ground there...sometimes. Native Americans certainly don't fit this mold, and I learned recently of people practicing the ancient Egyptian religion who feel they have a very good scholarly basis to feel their practice is quite close to the original. Others have picked and chosen in ways that felt right to them...and some got hooked into systems created by eccentrics like Gardner (i.e. Wicca). Now, as admitted in this thread earlier, the roots of Wicca are more problematic..and hooked into Crowley, etc. But guess what...Crowley goes back to Golden Dawn...and you know what...Fortune and others also go back to Golden Dawn..but from a Christian perspective...so, again, we have trouble making blanket characterizations of same as either "pagan" or "demonic".<br><br>so really, these criticisms are not of "paganism" but of magickal systems...which clearly is what Potter is about. But Potter books and a huge percentage of fantasy books in general, present worlds in which there is magick...and people choose whether to use that power for good or ill. And Dion Fortune, again, demonstrates one author who suggests that in the "real world" magick can be a source of good...in fact, for her, it's part of her Christianity.<br><br>So let us be clear when we condemn Neo-paganism. What, exactly, are you condemning? More than one God? How does this equate with evil? Magickal systems? So are ALL magickal systems evil? Are all magickal systems pagan? Neo-pagan?<br><br>Here's my view. Reality, ultimate reality, if fucking weird. We do not, and quite likely, cannot, really conceive of how it all works. More to heavan and earth than dreamt of....etc. Religions are attempts to conceptualize this reality...and I'll bet all of them have botched it pretty badly, as our little brains just aren't up to the task.<br><br>All religions...or most, I guess, suggest there are unseen forces in the universe which can be brought to bear on human affairs in various ways: prayer, magick, sacrifice, ritual. Some of the ways people have chosen to bring this power into manifestation we reject as evil. I think that's a legitimate line to draw. Interestingly, the more I read this site, the more I think that the fundamental error humans make is to think that they can draw these forces into our plane to serve OUR interests...when in fact it may simply be the opposite...these forces act in their own interests or in no one's interest (analogous to the forces of nature). <br><br>And we can't even make the distinction that "evil" systems are systems which try to call on these forces for selfish reasons, often at the expense of others. After all, Christians pray for victory in war all the time...which, by definition, is calling the unseen forces into our plane in order to destroy other humans.<br><br>So we need to be clear here. We haven't a clue, really, how the universe works. Either atheistic materialism is correct, and then none of these systems matter (in terms of the "unseen forces," anyway), or we must simply judge each person by the effect they intend to bring about in the world through their religious practice. And, as we've seen, even within ONE religion, such as Christianity, the motivations of their practitioners can be very different indeed.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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So what is the effect of adapting a (neo-) pagan ethos

Postby proldic » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:20 pm

<br>”So we need to be clear here. We haven't a clue, really, how the universe works. Either atheistic materialism is correct, and then none of these systems matter (in terms of the "unseen forces," anyway), or we must simply judge each person by the effect they intend to bring about in the world through their religious practice. And, as we've seen, even within ONE religion, such as Christianity, the motivations of their practitioners can be very different indeed.”<br><br>For a lark, how about trying to discern “unseen forces” through an atheist historical-materialist vantage? <br><br>“Well, guess what, criticizing some pagan religions from the past really says nothing about other pagan practices….”<br><br>Nor does idealizing them today, or assuming that they have a positive effect in today’s world. <br><br>My beef is not with naturalistic belief systems, or with indigenous religions, but with the classic white westerner who is fed an adaptation of these belief systems as ”neo-paganism”, ignorant of the overall implications the adaptation of that belief system has in today’s society.<br><br>And it is typical of the grass-roots of “neo-pagan” movements to be quite out of touch with the societal implications of their belief systems. The working-class Germans disn’t understand the reality of the Nazi party, instead they believed the (hijacked) socialist rhetoric, and were influenced by the wielding of occult/religious symbolism, and naturalism, mystical volkishness and all that. <br><br>For example, just because I see as primary the concept of how fundamentalist Islam has been ressurected by the powerful elite forces as a counter-balance to the virulency of humanistic socialism in the middle east, Asia, and Africa, doesn’t mean that I’m unaware <br>of the progressive tenets of the Muslim faith (Zakat, brotherhood of man, no interest). Or Buddhism, or Christianity, or Judaism.<br><br>I am aware that Roman Christianity destroyed much of the great knowledge of the pagan world. But I find the more urgent truth right now to be that the elites are pushing new-age, occult, and “neo-paganist” philosophies on white westerners, as evidenced by Harry Potter, or “why leadership demands a pagan ethos”, and so much more. <br><br>What matters most to folks in the real world?<br><br>Maybe you don’t believe that Christianity, and specifically Catholicism, has waned as a means of mass-control?<br> <br>Simply put, the elites see “neo-paganism” as the ideal belief system for middle-and- upper-class white westerners as we come into the NWO-era. <br><br>Despite the eternal crimes of the big three, I don’t see any moral codes in “neo-paganism”, in fact it has a strongly post-modernist underpinning. <br><br>I happen to live in one of the major areas of new-age neo-pagan activity in north America, so I think I have a good understanding of how the neo-pagan belief systems play out in the parapolitical world.<br> <br>We are in an area surrounded by great injustice and poverty. The simple addition of a few more bodies to any number of specific battles would make a serious tipping point as far as regional politics, and bettering the lives of thousands of people, goes. As populist political activists organizing around the needs of working-class people, we are constantly making pragmatic alliances with progressive Christians, Jews, and Muslims. <br><br>And where are most all of your glorious new-agers, neo-pagans, wiccans, and the like? <br>Detached, apolitical, obsessed with esoteric ritual and “magick”, sitting around in elitist insular circles playing folk music and planning for the coming “new age”.<br> <br>You talk about the civil rights movement: as stifling as they have been at times, I’ve seen 100x more common sense inside a black christian church than I have in any gathering of hippy new-agers and neo-pagans. And they don’t have any use for talk of “neo-paganism” and the like. <br><br>It’s quite like the “left gatekeeper” argument, where the grass-roots are incapable of seeing the fact/internalizing the truth of the fact that their leadership is actually working quite openly in counter to what they perceive as “leftism”.<br><br>You are spiritually starving, unfulfilled, so you are being fed a new potion.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Wicca

Postby jenz » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:42 pm

Avalon - read no malice into my typos, as you read none into Dreams. I read the first 3 clauses in the last para. you wrote 5x and still don't know what you meant. Would you elucidate? <p></p><i></i>
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Good points

Postby Dreams End » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:02 pm

I'll respond to a few.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>For a lark, how about trying to discern “unseen forces” through an atheist historical-materialist vantage? <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, if they are right...there are no unseen forces and then the only importance of these belief systems is the effect they have socially and politically. If you are of that bent already, then the discussions on this site about the possibility that there really are some forces at work here is not relevant.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My beef is not with naturalistic belief systems, or with indigenous religions, but with the classic white westerner who is fed an adaptation of these belief systems as ”neo-paganism”, ignorant of the overall implications the adaptation of that belief system has in today’s society.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, elsewhere, I've criticized cultural or spiritual "imperialism" and vowed to slap the next blonde, blue-eyed "medicine man" I met. I don't know, I think we have some regional differences here. There's simply no one in these parts "feeding" doctrine of any kind to the pagans I know. That's why around here they are so ecclectic as to really barely hold together as a class. <br><br>Now if you want a religion that feeds doctrine, enforces doctrine and has unseen or unacknowledged societal implications, I invite you to look again at Christianity, especially the evangelical and fundamentalist varieties. Do we agree that these systems have implications that are disturbing? Role of women, role of government, relation to environment, etc. This variety of Christianity sees Bush as doing God's work. Talk about implications.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And it is typical of the grass-roots of “neo-pagan” movements to be quite out of touch with the societal implications of their belief systems. The working-class Germans disn’t understand the reality of the Nazi party, instead they believed the (hijacked) socialist rhetoric, and were influenced by the wielding of occult/religious symbolism, and naturalism, mystical volkishness and all that.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, I guess you might want to specify what the implications for the modern American neo pagans are. Are you suggesting they are akin to Nazism? You also acknowledge that the socialist rhetoric was hijacked. Could we not argue the same for the pagan (and is pagan what you mean by occult? Once again, the two get used interchangeably.) In addition, let's please acknowledge an AWFUL lot of Christian rhetoric from Hitler, whatever his occult underpinnings. You don't condemn Christianity or socialism for the way they were used by the Nazis, yet their use of the religious symbols appropriated from paganism suggests, to you, that we condemn paganism. What, by the way, exactly is the paganism you are condemning? I don't think it's simply polytheism, I think you see a collection of more or less coherent beliefs and ideologies that is having a big impact on the country...so I guess if you can show me what that ideology is and that this ideology is not simply one set of a whole host of pagan ideologies floating around, we can have a better discussion.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But I find the more urgent truth right now to be that the elites are pushing new-age, occult, and “neo-paganist” philosophies on white westerners, as evidenced by Harry Potter, or “why leadership demands a pagan ethos”, and so much more.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br>Well, your evidence cited is rather thin that the elites are pushing these philosophies. Harry Potter (why does no one ever worry about Lord of the Rings?) and one web article. Again, we may have a regional difference keeping us from communicating effectively. Where I am, the ideology being pushed is fundamentalist Christianity....and it's gaining ground every day. I would argue that this serves an elite agenda even if the elites themselves only pretend Christianity. Believe me, Darwin and Rowling are MUCH closer to being banned in libraries around here than is the Bible! <br><br>Now, on this site we get hints that underneath this Christian veneer is some dark religion. Somehow, you'll have to show that there is prevailing ideology gaining ground that is "pagan", and that this ideology is the same as whatever pagan/Satanic practices our fine elites are practicing in order to prove your point. Otherwise, I'm afraid I have to stick with my own experience and say that the fundies are powerful and continue to gain power. <br><br>You also argue that paganism is somehow sapping the front lines of bodies in the fight for justice. Well, first off, I'd say the same of Christianity, though we need a new name for the specifically rightwing variety, as I'm well aware that elements of the Christian church have been powerful advocates for change. Merton, Dorthy Day, MLK, these should be in most people's pantheon of heroes.<br><br>But there is NO force, and I say this categorically, that is serving the state more effectively than Christianity. None. Whether justifying wars, diverting attention from social justice issues to worry about "moral" issues such as banning gay marriage or somehow in ways I can't even figure out, being used to build up grass roots support for economic and tax policies that CLEARLY and OVERWHELMINGLY favor the wealthy, Christianity is the guilty party. This is, primarily, because it is the state religion (or as close as can be had until they finally erase that little church/state wall.)<br><br>As for new age navel gazing...well, I wish I could disagree, though I still say even television is more responsible for apathy and inaction. The problem here, aside from the role of sinister elites (and I'll get to that in the end) is the Americanization of spirituality of all types. It's what I call the "profit through enlightenment" brand of spirituality and really, despite the wide variety of spiritual traditions that have been victimized by it, comes right down to good old Calvinist theology. If you have the correct practice or belief, you will have riches and health. If you are suffering, it is suffering that shows you are "out of God's favor" (Christian) or that you have "brought on yourself" either through wrong thinking or as a "lesson" you need to learn (New Age.) But within this category of New Age, we don't just find the pagans, we get so-called Taoists, alleged Buddhists (check out Soko Gakkai...started in Japan, but follows this line of thought to the letter and is popular in America. And, in my view, is pretty far afield from actual Buddhism. Chant and you get stuff. yay.) We find so-called Shivaites, we find provocative books on Tantric sex..we have Deep Pockets Chopra, all packaged and marketed to a growing audience. And, of course, this line of "pray and grow rich" ideology is absolutely rampant among Christians. Profit through enlightenment..coming to just about any religion near you.<br><br>So please, do not lay this burden at the feet of neo-pagans. This is a broader (and I agree, frustrating and maddening) social trend...and I'll warrant that it is manipulated, both within and without Christianity to keep the populace passive. <br><br>By the way, I think you are wrong in one area. The environmental movement (or what's left of it) has a pretty fair number of pagans at its base, I think. And there are certainly pagans in the G8/anti-globalization actions. Check out Starhawk's page to see a fine example of neo-pagan political activism. And you might want to cut back a tad on your generalizations. <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.starhawk.org/">www.starhawk.org/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>A quote from her:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Because I believe the earth is a living being, because we are all part of that life, because every human being embodies the Goddess, because I have a fierce, passionate love for redwoods and ravens, because clear running water is sacred, I'm an activist. And because the two hundred richest people in the world own as much wealth as the poorest forty percent, because every ecosystem, traditional culture, old growth forest and life support system on the planet is under assault, and because the institutions perpetuating this unjust system are global, I'm kept very busy!<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>She's a pagan, dude. You go grrrl.<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It’s quite like the “left gatekeeper” argument, where the grass-roots are incapable of seeing the fact/internalizing the truth of the fact that their leadership is actually working quite openly in counter to what they perceive as “leftism”<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, please point me to who the "leadership" is. Again, if it's Starhawk, the most visible pagan I know about, your point is simply wrong. If it's others, point me to them, please. And, AGAIN, you can say the same thing about Christianity. Many MANY Christians are devout and believe with all their hearts that Jesus is their savior. How sad (well, ultimately wonderful) if they ever find out that so much of their leadership has been absolutely co-opted or flat out bought by the corporate elites to push an anti-progressive agenda. How sad for them if they find out how so many of their leaders are in bed with self-proclaimed Messiah Sun Myung Moon. And, again, we have regional differences I guess, because I absolutely see Christianity exerting effective social control.<br><br>Now, you may find contradictions in my arguments because I'm conflicted as well. I understand how much of the occult ideology (which is really what I think you have in mind some of the time when you are worried about pagans) is tied up in white supremacy, Naziism and overlaps with the military and intelligence communities. This should be recognized. I do take issue with you that the elites are pushing this...to me the seem to HIDE this and push Christianity...so we do disagree there. <br><br>But I find statist conformist churches and rightwing churches, an emphasis on "profit through enlightenment" spirituality, rampant consumerism (clearly manipulated by the elites) and a non-meaningful political process replete with sophisticated propaganda and a compliant media to be behind the pacification of the masses. Paganism really doesn't enter the picture at all.<br><br>Again, our first task, though, in this debate, is to define who we are talking about. I don't see anything close to a monolithic pagan ideology that is somehow shaping our culture and I invited you to show me where that's happening. Your use of Harry Potter suggests you equate magickal practices with neo-paganism, and this really confuses the issue, but even if we accept that, I still suggest one can be a "good witch" just as Harry is supposed to be a force for good (as is Gandalf in LOTR...which, again, always gets by under the Christian radar).<br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End
 

not proselytyzing...really

Postby Dreams End » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:16 pm

I swear I JUST found the site this article is on...I'm really not trying to convert anyone (I don't identify as pagan anyway.) However, I thought it was a good summary from someone within paganism:<br><br>Why I Call Myself Pagan<br>by Sam Webster<br><br>For Macha, because she asked...<br><br>I call myself Pagan. Pagans are people of a new religion that got started in about 1850, though we could assign a date as early as the Florentine Renaissance.<br><br>What has historically been called "pagan" are the non-Christian religions of the world. Originally pagan referred to those folk of the Italian part of Rome who did not participate in the Roman State Cult worshipping variations of the Greek Olympian gods. Essentially it meant the same as calling one unsophisticated, or less politely, a "hick."<br><br>Later, when Christianity became the Roman State religion, this term was transferred to anyone not participating in it.<br><br>Yet this term was not used by the people to whom it was applied. Thus it is not a valid term. They were Norse, Celt, Briton, German, Greek, Egyptian and so forth and their religions varied widely. They can not functionally be lumped under a single term. They self-identified as members of those cultures, not as pagans.<br><br>My theoretical preference here is to let people self-identify, and honor their names for themselves. Also, I prefer to deal with the actual phenomenon, rather than indirectly through ideas about it in order to let it self-define. Thus when I turn to what is happening today, certain characteristics come to the foreground:<br><br>1) What we do today draws on a variety of cultures and does not match any single culture of the past. Thus we cannot claim to be the inheritors of any single culturally bound religious tradition. We are not Greek, Roman, Celt or whatever.<br><br>2) We participate in the post classical world-view begun in the Renaissance, and today most of us are steeped in the Modern world-view. Some of us actually participate in the Post-Modern world-view, which has still to fully define itself, but the principal characteristic of which is disenchantment with the rationalistic and mechanistic Modernist world-view's claims to adequacy. For instance, who believes the Earth is the center of the Universe? Or that the Sun orbits around the Earth? Or that any material can be composed by combining proportions of Earth, Air, Fire and Water?<br><br>3) We arose not out of the original culture of some place, out of some tribal heritage. Rather we arose in reaction to a culture we either rejected or sought to reform. In the Renaissance, our forebears reclaimed the Platonic, Hermetic and Orphic traditions in an effort to reform a corrupt Christianity, whose hegemony would fall one hundred years later to Martin Luther's hammer blow. In the French occult revival of the 1850s, stifled bureaucrats sought something satisfying beyond the horizon of the Industrial Revolution by turning to occult practices. And when, during this time Eastern holy texts were first being translated into Western tongues, it awoke two contrary impulses; appropriation, which in literature is seen as the Transcendentalist and German Romantic movements and in religion as the forming of the Theosophical society; and rejection, in which the participants essentially declared that the West possessed the same depth of material and so turned to native resources and began to recompose the Western esoteric tradition. Eliphas Levi, the Golden Dawn, and Dion Fortune are examples of this across three generations. We Pagans are the inheritors of the work of both the appropriators and the rejecters. The material we use is a new synthesis of what they acquired, discovered and created. But what we have today never existed before this process of reclamation began.<br><br>And so what is this new thing to be called? I would not use Neo-Pagan, because it has no predecessor. And to speak of us, who gather in living rooms and backyards, at festivals and workshops - this odd collection of people practicing this wildly polyphonic way - I would call them by the name of disgrace with which they were labeled. And I would now insist that it be capitalized, since it is a proper noun and a name. We have become what our detractors feared us to become. We, the inheritors of the traditional cultures of the past, have become a single, though not united, heterogeneous religion. We are Pagan. <br><br>Taken from: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.reclaimingquarterly.org/web/spiraldance/spiral13.html">www.reclaimingquarterly.o...ral13.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End
 

Neo-Pagans

Postby proldic » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:24 pm

“Well, if they are right...there are no unseen forces and then the only importance of these belief systems is the effect they have socially and politically. If you are of that bent already, then the discussions on this site about the possibility that there really are some forces at work here is not relevant.”<br> <br>I don’t see it as irrelevant, or mutually exclusive, at all. To me, it is obvious the “unseen forces” of the world of deep politics reach into every realm of existence of mankind, including the “religious/mystical/occult/meta-physical”. In fact, somewhere out there at the edge is an analysis of the concept of “unseen forces” or “political witchraft” that combines both a rigorous historical and material intuition with the overall understanding that much of the knowledge of “science” is hidden from our view, and sharpens both so to speak. Personally, I tend to think the result lies more in the realm of lessening popular superstitions of all kinds, and generating immense liberatory potential/hope. Wizard of Oz style. So, to me, it is the social and political angle that is the “unseen force” itself. And I would like to think that there might be a little room for this “pedestrian” take at RI. <br><br>”…There's simply no one in these parts "feeding" doctrine of any kind to the pagans I know.”<br><br>Hah. Just because it’s less obviously fed from the elites than the fundamentalist christian mysticism shouldn’t lead us to ignore it. It comes down to influencing those populations with influence. <br><br>“That's why around here they are so ecclectic as to really barely hold together as a class.” <br><br>That says something right there as to why they might push a plethora of “new religions”.<br><br>”… I invite you to look again at Christianity, especially the evangelical and fundamentalist varieties. Do we agree that these systems have implications that are disturbing? Role of women, role of government, relation to environment, etc. This variety of Christianity sees Bush as doing God's work. Talk about implications…..Where I am, the ideology being pushed is fundamentalist Christianity....and it's gaining ground every day. ..”<br><br>For me, this says it in a nutshell, proving that the real battle is down here on earth, and in the minds of the (for lack of a better word) “counter-culture”. <br><br>I fear the implications of your thinking more than those of the average right-wing fundamentalist christian. The fundamentalists are capitalizing on essential contradictions inherent in your message regarding the “Role women, role of government, relation to environment, etc.” <br><br>You are actually proving my larger (political) point for me here, by illustrating how counter-cultural new-agers are being influenced to perpetuate the red-blue divide and conquer meme. You are stuck in an artificial mental/spiritual divide from most of your neighbors. It’s the divide exploited by chip berlet and the modern cointelpro.<br><br>Maybe you should try thinking dynamically about talking to your neighbors on different terms for awhile. What are the motivations of the working-class poor people being duped by fundamentalism? Why do those ideals hold sway? A big part of the answer is your inability to articulate a credible alternative. If we are really interested in deep, lasting, revolutionary, ---yeah, spiritual--- change we need to learn to start dealing with our fellow working-class (assuming you are one) where they are at. You can choose to meet people half-way, or you can create unrealistic expectations of spiritual change. <br><br>Because of your background (assuming liberal, white, college-educated, westerner), you can’t see this resurgance in neo-paganism for what it is: an attempt to distract and stupefy certain segments of the sub-elites, (and you can’t see how you are part of those sub-elites). You have this dualistic view of “anti-pagan=pro-christian”. It’s a knee-jerk, almost reactionary response to the old religions that prevents you from seeing the “players” on the stage as they are today. And by a large degree, the people have always taken back those elements of their faith that will lead to a betterment of their lives. Why do you think progressive liberation theology was so popular all over the “3rd world”? <br><br>As to your constant return to the evils of the “three giant trees”, I say – “get over it”. The resurgent neo-paganistic ideologies leave nothing for us to work with, especially when trying to win the battle for the “hearts and minds” of the vast masses of people with the fundamentalist elements of the three major religions. <br><br>On a social level, I believe more of us – especially those who claim to be more “conscious” - need to be much more self-critical, not just in terms of our individual behaviour, but in terms of where we decide to put the (psychic) weight of our place in a historical struggle of, yes, gasp! - good vs evil. If you want long-lasting change, we need to start dealing with the hand we were dealt, and not walk away from the table. And there’s a whole history of why you were dealt that hand, and it’s largely your own (inter-generational) fault. <br><br>Maybe you can see it like the idea of building a 3rd-party in the US. As indistinct from republicans, as horrible, as bad, as corrupt, as the democratic party is, within our petrified 2-party system many (including myself) have learned it was foolishness. So you got your Naderites, your Greens, your Reform party, and all of them sap the strength of working-class unity, and at the tired, bitter, end of the day --- if we want to have any chance of sense of unity with our fellow citizens --- we have to plug our noses and drag ourselves back and get back into the pile of shit. <br><br> Talk about “western ideology” – what is more “western” than reducing everything to a self-admittedly disconnected stance, a hyper-individualist, highly personal take (“regional differences”), leading us away from the macro-analysis of our current world that is so necessary now? <br><br>Actually, I see the reluctance to politically self-educate, assess the available evidence, and then make accurate --- generalizations --, as a big part of the problem. <br><br> ”Well, I guess you might want to specify what the implications for the modern American neo pagans are. Are you suggesting they are akin to Nazism?” <br><br>On the level of how they influence the thinkings of potentially-activist people, and the ramifications of the widesrpread adoption of the tenets of “neo-paganism” in any movement for social change, yes.<br><br>“You also acknowledge that the socialist rhetoric was hijacked. Could we not argue the same for the pagan (and is pagan what you mean by occult? Once again, the two get used interchangeably.) In addition, let's please acknowledge an AWFUL lot of Christian rhetoric from Hitler, whatever his occult underpinnings.”<br><br>I believe its pretty clear that the Nazis, and many of the real leaders of the NWO, had and have what (if we could agree on exactly what it actually was) could be legitimately called a “pagan” ethos. <br>Despite the Nazis attempts to use the mainstream churches, and those churches varying degrees of collaboration, my reading shows that, just like today, at it’s barely-concealed roots lay a non-christian, “evil-validating” (yes, “worshipping”) foundation that heavily expropriated from/based itself upon neo-pagan beliefs, incorporating them alongside and superior to christianity in their propaganda and ideology. <br><br>“You don't condemn Christianity or socialism for the way they were used by the Nazis,”<br>Yes I do. There are huge lessons to be learned there And if I was talking to my neighbor who is a conservative christian, or to my social-democratic friends in the Green Party, I would be talking differently, but it would be simply a different angle of the same picture. And, more importantly for the point of this discussion, aren’t you and I both fully aware of that record? The difference is they purged any truly good church people into the death camps as things got worse (check Pastor Niemuller quote), and they had a “Night of the Long Knives” that revealed the falsity of their socialist rhetoric. There was no concurrent wholesale persecution of pagans and occultists of significance, when they were “good germans”. The Nazis were infatuated with paganism and the occult (separately or differently), and they were far more interested in developing a new “religion” and a new “man”, than they were in defending christianity. And they certainly weren’t defending Judaism. Of course the masses of german people of the “lower classes” were not exposed to this as much, but the bourgeoisie was, and the artists were, and all the sub-elites. It was the semi-covert existence of “esoteric fascism” that played a role in ensuring unity and control among the ruling classes themselves.<br><br>“...so I guess if you can show me what that ideology is and that this ideology is not simply one set of a whole host of pagan ideologies floating around, we can have a better discussion.”<br><br>That is what I believe 100%. I just don’t have much time left today. As soon as I posted about Potter I realized I had stepped into a rathole and a half. It was just that it’s sooo incredibly popular and well-marketed (and I’ve seen a number of children’s fads come and go in my day) that it got me to thinking: this is being used to indoctrinate white, western kids into a new religious mentality, just as the (lack of) credibility of the old religions is revealed. And I did get upset about LOR. When it was a book. Just like Pokemon, D&D, black metal, or fundamentalist zionist or muslim or white power music.<br><br>You also argue that paganism is somehow sapping the front lines of bodies in the fight for justice. Well, first off, I'd say the same of Christianity,<br><br>I just made the point that in my activist circles, we get more support from those perceived as conservative christians than we ever do from new-agers, who ---REALITY CHECK – are largely apolitical. <br><br> But there is NO force, and I say this categorically, that is serving the state more effectively than Christianity. None. <br><br>I would say that the fundamentalist Islam is a greater threat, purely numerically. <br><br>Whether justifying wars, diverting attention from social justice issues to worry about "moral" issues such as banning gay marriage or somehow in ways I can't even figure out, <br><br>But this is what the liberal elites and foundation-funded left-wing think tanks are pushing as well - IDENTITY POLITICS. <br>Todays pagans are “CLEARLY and OVERWHELMINGLY” from the wealthier, more “educated” classes<br><br> Christianity is the guilty party. <br><br>Not the only one, by a long shot.<br><br>This is, primarily, because it is the state religion (or as close as can be had until they finally erase that little church/state wall.)<br><br>This is very distorted view of deep political reality. Christianity is the “overt” face of one part of the system, but I see a greater threat within the “ranks” of well-intentioned westerners to offer another, and this is what’s most important – in context with who they are –better opiate. <br><br>”As for new age navel gazing...well, I wish I could disagree, though I still say even television is more responsible for apathy and inaction.” <br><br>Not on the part of us influential white people. What typical snotty leftist elitism. So your new-age friends are so much smarter than those beer-swilling, SUV-driving christian rednecks watching Jerry Springer? The scary part is, even after all the attention to the growth of populist economic desperation, all the Farm Aids, all the ”Places In the Hearts” and “The Rivers”, in the midst of a forced downsizing of America’s heartland, the left (I’m not even thinking about flaky Wiccans and what not now) stood down and sold out the plight of middle america --- big time. And then they applauded and made apologies for Waco, and PBS and Noam Chomsky and Michael Albert savged the militia movement. “Nothing here to see, folks, just a bunch of ignorant racists, move on..” <br>I’ve been in your “neo-pagan” crowd for years, and I’d say, despite the expensive educations and all the priveledge of your backgorunds, you folks have LESS common-sense and WORSE political intuition than most any one of those red-state working poor. The new-agers I know don’t watch TV much at all, although they do partake in the popular culture in their own unique way. <br><br>“…Profit through enlightenment..coming to just about any religion near you.”<br><br>The profit angle, just like the corporate angle, misses so much of the real boat when it comes to the damage the “new-age” movement has wrought.<br><br>”By the way, I think you are wrong in one area. The environmental movement (or what's left of it) has a pretty fair number of pagans at its base, I think. And there are certainly pagans in the G8/anti-globalization actions. Check out Starhawk's page to see a fine example of neo-pagan political activism. And you might want to cut back a tad on your generalizations. www.starhawk.org/…She's a pagan, dude. You go grrrl.”<br><br> This finishes it for me for today. I see we are worlds apart. Fuckin’ STARHAWK is what you think of as an “activist”? And the western “environmental movement” is what you think of as “activism”? This is really not meant to be construed as offensive, but at this point I can see that you are seriously under-informed about the reality of political affairs in the US. We may need to break this out into a separate discussion. This focus on “blame middle america”, the the “end of suburbia”, “rampant consumerism” is wrapped up in the same ball of wax as the eco-catastrophism and environmental fascism of your neo-pagan crowd. What exactly do you think will bring us to accept the new world order, anyway? In addition to Islamic terrorism, in today’s world, it’s the Kyoto Accords, Codex Alimentarius, and other high-minded treaties that dissolve national sovereignty and weaken/ attack resistant economies. <br><br> <br>”:Again, our first task, though, in this debate, is to define who we are talking about.” <br>You go first. What exactly do you think are the main widely-held beliefs of the western new-age neo-pagans?<br><br>[OK - I just saw your last post says something about this, so I will read and respond later....]<br><br>Here’s some reading:<br>Although his somewhat reductive and unsophisticated style leaves some holes, this essay still says something important:<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/newagemp.html">www.autodidactproject.org...agemp.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>
proldic
 
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religious debate

Postby robertdreed » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:48 pm

Hmm, hard-hitting critiques of "Christian theocratic" history by a self-identified pagan; a hard-hitting critque of "neo-paganism" by a self-identified atheist. Valid points all over the place. <br><br>This self-identified Christian will be staying tuned... <p></p><i></i>
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