Did Jesus Christ really exist?

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Re: you make it sound so simple

Postby Dreams End » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:18 am

The fact (and I think it is fact) that christianity has incorporated many pagan symbols and holidays does not, in and of itself "disprove" the existence of Jesus. Naturally, you can't disprove a negative anyway.<br><br>However, it was common practice in such times to tell "history" as a story, where the point of the story was more important than factual accuracy.<br><br>The fact that Jesus was "born of a virgin" shows that, to the teller, he had special status...and since they thought he was the Messiah, they told his story to conform with various "predictions" and prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures. His descending from the House of David is another example. First off, it never made any sense, since Joseph wasn't actually his father, so tracing his ancestry was silly. Secondly, there are two passages that list his ancestry, and they differ wildly in their account. But the point was, the meaning of Jesus came first and the "facts" were added to support that meaning.<br><br>While, on the surface, it would be hard to differentiate this from simply "making Jesus up" I believe that there was a Jesus, whether Essene Rabbi or rebellious magician...whatever. His message, however, most likely does not conform to what modern day Christians suggest...in fact, among Protestants, so much of the message has been drawn from Paul, who never even met Jesus, that the "social gospel" has just about been forgotten altogether. This emphasis on Jesus as the son of god and all that business was carefully worked out as theology by committee, primarily to fulfill certain political goals and to discredit rival Christian sects. The Nicene creed comes from the first such meeting.<br><br>So, there are so many filters, it's really hard to see what truth there is. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: you make it sound so simple

Postby dbeach » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:52 am

My truths don't agree wtih yours..JC is my Savior and anyone else who accepts Him..<br>BUT Jesus did jam with the Beatles and wrote songs for the Stones..tried to get divorced from his ole lady but the Catholic Church don't allow it unless you are Teddy kennedy.<br><br>Paraphrase form John Prine 'Jesus the missing Years'<br><br>Cosmic soup or cosmic debris<br><br>I think Jesus was born in April and yes catholics have incorporated much pagan ritual in the church..but hey its good marketing stragedy..<br><br>BUT I am a "well washed" Catholic..who just completely disagrees with the Vatican on most things and recognize their collusion with the satnic elites who have all kinds of lil schemes runnin down to keep folks divided and conditioned<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Probably existed...

Postby FourthBase » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:10 am

...Probably a benign Charlie Manson. <p></p><i></i>
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From the Gospel according to Bob:

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:19 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Sister, lemme tell you about a vision I saw.<br>You were drawing water for your husband, you were suffering under the law.<br>You were telling him about Buddha, you were telling him about Mohammed in the same breath.<br>You never mentioned one time the Man who came and died a criminal's death.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://images.windowsmedia.com/img/prov_s/300_80/00000000000001224672-800x800_72dpi_RGB.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?

Postby ZeroHaven » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:54 am

This is kind of the same as asking if Zeus existed. There's lots of biographical and other stories that seem to support the idea. It may have been an embellished legend like Zorro.. or a composite story about many people.<br><br>When you ask if it was "cruel hoax to enslave the masses" I have to point out a few things. <br>The cruel hoax is the current forms of the christian religion, which does not follow the teachings of Jesus as written in the bible. Jesus' teachings basically tell us NOT to worship in churches gilded with gold, NOT to kill people who have opposing ideas, and so on. <br><br>The tenth commandment of "love thy neighbor" came from real stories. Jesus says it TWICE in the bible text, but it's been omitted from the official list of commandments from the mount.<br><br>This means that somewhere along the way somebody writing this stuff down intentionally altered the original old testament story from well known accounts. This commandment directly contradicts the crappy nasty things done to further Christianity. In his day, Jesus still had the complete list of 10 in his stories. Whoever made the edits to god's list didn't bother to edit the new testament Jesus quotes.<br><br>That's it. Jesus, whoever he was, was truly good and pure and some nice people wrote about it. Then some scum sucking perverts altered the bible in order to promote their agenda of one major religion that demands tithing and the telling of your sordid deeds to some dude in a dress so he can live them vicariously.<br>----<br><br>i still think all the so-called gods were from another planet.. and apparently so do a lot of 'backward' african tribes who've never seen a toaster.<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>
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just a nit

Postby glubglubglub » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:58 am

Don't be too sure that tibetan life was all that and a can of peaches prior to the secularists' arrival: amongst other things, the lamas could claim the right of seignorage when it suited them, and at any particular time most of the country's material wealth was (voluntarily, in the same way that tithing was 'voluntary' at one point) handed over to the lamas et al. for the use of making statues. <p></p><i></i>
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Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth...sponsored by the CIA

Postby proldic » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:09 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html">www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: just a nit

Postby dbeach » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:07 pm

just thinking of the movie with Bill murray'Razors edge' which was remake of old Tyronne Power movie of same name..<br><br>In the end he ill mMrrayleft the conforts of the ashram to return to society and to walk the razors edge<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?

Postby john darmy » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:20 pm

Has anybody actually READ this book? And if so, what do you think of it and why? There are lots of interesting articles on her web site, not just about Christianity. Personally, I think the book is brilliant, and I think it's extremely important for man to break free of the chains imposed on him by organized religion. Christianity has been used as a tool to keep people at war with each other for centuries. Again, the web site is www.truthbeknown.com. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?

Postby heath7 » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:37 pm

For having never existed, the example led by Jesus, as a human made of love and compassion, remains unrivaled in history, fact or fiction. His message is so pure, and humanist, and anti-materialist its a miracle we still recieve its crux today, thousands of money-grubbing years later.<br><br>Not to mention he taught us so accurately what to expect from this world when you uncompromisingly live for a better world. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: you make it sound so simple

Postby slimmouse » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:59 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If consciousness can be created it can be destroyed. Anything created is a sum of it's parts/process and thus can be dissassembled. And if you're in training to create your own universe, what the heck are you wasting time on internet boards for?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Indeed it can Fogy, I guess thats where the Leap of faith is as far as Im concerned, which is why I said IMO. <br><br> It just makes more sense than standing in front of a guy with a beard thats all - and much of the "unofficial science" (that which dont get you grants and approval from religious foundations and energy cartels and the like ) tends to support that theory. <br><br> After 4 years of seeing much of the official version of almost anything for the complete and utter lie that it usually is ( unless it involves a dollar sign and a whole host of Zeros for the sponsors), I hope you will forgive me for concluding that this is my preferred kind of science.<br><br> As for being here on the internet, well I'm here amongst one of the most intellectual bunch of people I can find, in order to learn.<br><br> Cant be creatin universes without knowledge<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START >D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/grin.gif ALT=" >D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br> I suppose at the end of the day, its up to all to make our own minds up. Dont need no priest or "official scientist" telling me what to think, thanks very much. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?

Postby Fogyreef » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:16 pm

The stigma of Atheism is lifting. Indeed it is becoming a popular subject. Documentaries are out and more are in the works, as is a movie or two:<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.thegodmovie.com" target="top">www.thegodmovie.com</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.thebeastmovie.com/index.html" target="top">www.thebeastmovie.com/index.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><br>Moral fairytales and lessons of virtue abound in all cultures. That isn't an endorsement of Jesus' "teachings". It merely supports the fact that the most popular and effective myth and lore filters down through the generations until it becomes a religion.<br><br>The story of Jesus is not unique, it's a repeat. <p></p><i></i>
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re: Friendly Feudalism

Postby Starman » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:37 pm

Great post, Proldic -- It really opened my eyes to a much more balanced, accurate overview of the context for Tibet's subordination under Chinese political, economic and social reform. It seems incredible, another aspect of how complex the world actually is and how pervasive special-interest propaganda manages public perceptions, that one can be pretty well-read and yet remarkably misinformed (and even uninformed) about many geopolitical events. <br><br>I understand now how woefully ignorant I was about the true condition of systemic abuses, sufferings, punishments and serfdom enslavements imposed on the vast majority of Tibet's public under feudal Theocracy practiced by Tibet's ruling-class. It's eye-opening to see how the assumptions and premises of karmic 'debt' were used to perpuate a kind of elitist 'good ol' boy' status-quo, in which privelege, indulgence, luxury, comfort and security of the social elites were considered the 'rewards' of one's past spiritual attainments, and a validation of the existing social order -- reinforced by brutal punishment and enforcement methods that supplemented Buddhist doctrine, manipulated as social conditioning of the peasants to unquestionably submit to their own servitude.<br><br>This really begs the question -- Do the precepts of Buddhism encourage, or perhaps just lend themselves to such widespread imposition of a rigidly stratified social order in which civil and human rights are routinely violated, and horrible sufferings and torture are readily accomodated. The kind of terrible injustices that occurred and which were sanctioned by a literalist interpretation of the Buddha's teachings, from cross-generational slavery, to the economic exploitation by way of taxing individual initiative and free will and ruinous usury rates and fines, to brutal (and disfiguring) 'punishments' for infractions (ie., fleeing indenture), to selective access to justice in favor of higher-classes, to the chronic witholding of basic social services, ie. education and medical care -- does this reveal a fundamental flaw or void in Buddhism, that basic compassion and concern for the greater social well-being could be so completely overlooked? To what extent does (or did) Buddhism discourage progressive activism and active social reform for changing exploitive, brutal, abusive social/political/economic systems?<br><br>The example of Tibet reveals, perhaps, that some of the more reprehensible attributes of human nature aren't adequately addressed by Buddhism, or that it doesn't readily accomodate itself to providing guidelines for government insuring social justice and the meeting of basic public needs -- it's far less comprehensive, for instance, than Sharia Law in Islam, or Judaic Law.<br><br>I guess my question (I'm trying to shape it, to find the general shapeof it, anyway -- which is key to realistically exploring the/a possible answer) is:<br>Were basic Buddhst principles being ignored or trivialized that allowed such chronic, intergenerational abuses and injustices to occur -- or is there an inherant weakness or flaw in Buddhism that allows or encourages the failure of social institutions to meet public needs and provide a measure of justice guaranteeing basic human rights. Are human rights as we understand them (in the west) even acknowledged as desireable in Buddhist thought?<br><br>One would think (at least, I do/did) that Buddhism recognizes and values such attributes as personal freedom and autonomy, self-awareness and education leading to greater self-empowerment and opportunities for universal access to social equity-participation, acheiving a modest degree of personal career or self-development or creative-expression success, enjoying the basic human-needs benefits of a well-developed standard of living and the security (and convenience) of a productive (and satisfying) job, participating in as a member-in-good-standing of a diverse, cohesive social community where there aren't any gross inequalities and disasterous poverty is eliminated, a society with equal access to fair laws that prohibit/discourage exploitive and violent practices, etc.<br><br>One can see that the rulers, the mercantile classes, the highborn-landowning priveleged families, and Monastery elites (and perhaps even the civil servents, or at least the bosses) had vested interests (as all elites do) in perpetuating the status-quo, and so perhaps they were given to overlooking Buddhist precepts about having compassion and giving mercy to the poor and suffering, and those more disadvantaged than oneself -- but there wasn't really any incentive under Buddhist principles to organize and work towards identifying and 'correcting' social wrongs -- the teaching of acceptance and non-confrontational accomodation to given circumstances hardly orients one, or a society, to struggle or fight for principles of freedom and justice -- In many ways, it seems Buddhism would be a perfect philosophy for maintaining order in a concentration camp.<br><br>Any thoughts or critiques on this to help show that Buddhism has much to offer the peace and justice and progressive reform movements? Perhaps a core tenet that was ignored in Tibet and that allowed and actually encouraged the ossification of social institutions -- which became an easy object for China to exploit and undermine. If the leadership and ruling class of Tibet under Buddhist guidance had actively encouraged and worked to improve and better people's lives, increasing the quality of life and giving hope for each generation to see improvements in their opportunities to participate in the benefits of society and for their families, it's unlikely the Chinese invasion would have suceeded to the extent it has in changing Tibet culture and social institutions. While far from a failed state, Tibet surely was severely crippled in many ways, with perhaps more than 3/4 of its citizens living in very mean, exploited circumstances.<br><br>Starman<br><br>--excerpt--<br><br>The theocracy's religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve upon being reborn. The rich and powerful of course treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.<br>. . .<br>We are told that when the Dalai Lama ruled Tibet, the people lived in contented and tranquil symbiosis with their monastic and secular lords, in a social order sustained by a deeply spiritual, nonviolent culture, inspired by humane and pacific religious teachings. The Tibetan religious culture was the social glue and comforting balm that kept rich lama and poor peasant spiritually bonded together, to maintain those proselytes who embrace Old Tibet as a cultural purity, a Shangri-La.<br><br>One is reminded of the idealized imagery of feudal Europe presented by latter-day conservative Catholics such as G. K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. For them, medieval Christendom was a world of contented peasants living in a deep spiritual bond with their Church, under the protection of their lords.41 Again we are invited to accept a particular culture on its own terms, which means accepting it as presented by its favored class, by those at the top who profited most from it. The Shangri-La image of Tibet bears no more resemblance to historic reality than does the romanticized image of medieval Europe. <br><br>When seen in all its grim realities, Old Tibet confirms the view expressed earlier in this book that culture is anything but neutral. Culture can operate as a legitimating cover for a host of grave injustices, benefiting some portion of a society's population at great cost to other segments. In theocratic Tibet, ruling interests manipulated the traditional culture to fortify their wealth and power. The theocracy equated rebellious thought and action with satanic influence. It propagated the general presumption of landlord superiority and peasant unworthiness. The rich were represented as deserving their good life, and the poor as deserving their mean lowly existence, all codified in teachings about the karmic residues of virtues and vices accumulated from past lives, all presented as part of God's will. <br><br>It might be said that we denizens of the modern secular world cannot grasp the equations of happiness and pain, contentment and custom, that characterize more traditionally spiritual societies. This is probably true, and it may explain why some of us idealize such societies. But still, a gouged eye is a gouged eye; a flogging is a flogging; and the grinding exploitation of serfs and slaves is a brutal class injustice whatever its cultural wrapping. There is a difference between a spiritual bond and human bondage, even when both exist side by side<br><br>Many ordinary Tibetans want the Dalai Lama back in their country, but it appears that relatively few want a return to the social order he represented. A 1999 story in the Washington Post notes that he continues to be revered in Tibet, but<br><br>. . . few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of his advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in surrendering the land they gained during China's land reform to the clans. Tibet's former slaves say they, too, don't want their former masters to return to power.<br>"I've already lived that life once before," said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the Dalai Lama, but added, "I may not be free under Chinese communism, but I am better off than when I was a slave."42<br><br>Kim Lewis, who studied healing methods with a Buddhist monk in Berkeley, California, had occasion to talk at length with more than a dozen Tibetan women who lived in the monk's building. When she asked how they felt about returning to their homeland, the sentiment was unanimously negative. At first, Lewis thought their reluctance had to do with the Chinese occupation, but they quickly informed her otherwise. They said they were extremely grateful "not to have to marry 4 or 5 men, be pregnant almost all the time," or deal with sexually transmitted diseases contacted from a straying husband. The younger women "were delighted to be getting an education, wanted absolutely nothing to do with any religion, and wondered why Americans were so naive." They recounted stories of their grandmothers' ordeals with monks who used them as "wisdom consorts," telling them "how much merit they were gaining by providing the 'means to enlightenment'-- after all, the Buddha had to be with a woman to reach enlightenment." <br><br>The women interviewed by Lewis spoke bitterly about the monastery's confiscation of their young boys in Tibet. When a boy cried for his mother, he would be told "Why do you cry for her, she gave you up - she's just a woman." Among the other issues was "the rampant homosexuality in the Gelugpa sect. All was not well in Shangri-la," Lewis opines."43<br>. . .<br>To support the Chinese overthrow of the old feudal theocracy is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in Tibet. This point is seldom understood by today's Shangri-La adherents in the West. <br><br>The converse is also true. To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime. One common complaint among Buddhist followers in the West is that Tibet's religious culture is being undermined by the occupation. Indeed this seems to be the case. Many of the monasteries are closed, and the theocracy has passed into history. What I am questioning here is the supposedly admirable and pristinely spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. In short, we can advocate religious freedom and independence for Tibet without having to embrace the mythology of a Paradise Lost. <br><br>Finally, it should be noted that the criticism posed herein is not intended as a personal attack on the Dalai Lama. Whatever his past associations with the CIA and various reactionaries, he speaks often of peace, love, and nonviolence. And he himself really cannot be blamed for the abuses of the ancien régime, having been but 15 years old when he fled into exile. In 1994, in an interview with Melvyn Goldstein, he went on record as favoring since his youth the building of schools, "machines," and roads in his country. He claims that he thought the corvée (forced unpaid serf labor for the lord's benefit) and certain taxes imposed on the peasants were "extremely bad." And he disliked the way people were saddled with old debts sometimes passed down from generation to generation.45 Furthermore, he now proposes democracy for Tibet, featuring a written constitution, a representative assembly, and other democratic essentials.46<br><br>In 1996, the Dalai Lama issued a statement that must have had an unsettling effect on the exile community. It reads in part as follows:<br><br>"Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis and the equitable utilization of the means of production. It is also concerned with the fate of the working classes-that is the majority---as well as with the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and Marxism cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and it seems fair. . . I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist.47"<br><br>And more recently in 2001, while visiting California, he remarked that "Tibet, materially, is very, very backward. Spiritually it is quite rich. But spirituality can't fill our stomachs."48 Here is a message that should be heeded by the well-fed Buddhist proselytes in the West who wax nostalgic for Old Tibet. <br><br>What I have tried to challenge is the Tibet myth, the Paradise Lost image of a social order that actually was a retrograde theocracy of serfdom and poverty, where a favored few lived high and mighty off the blood, sweat, and tears of the many. It was a long way from Shangri-La.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Did Jesus Christ really exist?

Postby heath7 » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:38 pm

I can understand being agnostic, but what exactly does atheism offer? You don't <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>know</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> what comes after mortal life, so why convince yourself that this purgatory is all there is? And then propagate it? With all the wonder in the world, how can thinking persons convince themselves nothing's going on? <p></p><i></i>
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Tibetan Buddhism: Euro-US religion for global government

Postby proldic » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:44 pm

here's another one, I know to many it's going to seem sketchy just because it's so damn comprehensively indicting, but read it with that in mind, it seems they are on to something about globalized spiritual systems and stealth-theocracy... <br><br>I'm sure you won't say, as some do,<br> "I refuse to read it because [insert particular religious system] it's helped <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>me</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> so much"<br><br>"The Shadow of the Dalai Lama"<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Index.htm">www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Index.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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