Question on the power underlying the occult.

by **banned** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:11 am

This was semi sorta suggested by Jeff's post on RI today, but I've thought about it for a long time without coming to any conclusion. So I thought I'd throw it out there for this crowd to commentate on. Do you believe that there is ONE suprahuman form of power which is itself value neutral, neither good nor evil, but can be called up by people who are good or people who are evil--in other words, the power itself is like electricity, you can use it to run the refrigerator at the Food Bank to feed people in need, or you can run it into a secret chamber at Gitmo and use it to torture human beings. The effect is dependent on the intent to the person using the 'juice.' OR Do you believe that there is EVIL power and GOOD power, and that one responds to bad people with nefarious, malicious aims, and the other to good people trying to help others and heal the effects of the bad people? If the latter, do you believe the evil power and the good power are equally matched, or do you think evil is ultimately subordinate to good (good manages to use evil for good ends), or is evil stronger and good constantly playing catch up ball? In the interests of full disclosure while I haven't made up my mind, I am leaning toward believint the final choice, that there are 2 kinds of powers and evil is the more powerful and good can rarely catch a break, and even when it does, it doesn't last long without huge effort and vigilance. I think this is an important thing in a person's world view, because if they're wrong...their lives are kind of fucked, pardon my French. I mean, if you're floating along thinking there's an all good God who is somehow monitoring all the crap that's happening so eventually it comes out right in heaven....and that's baloney...you're in deep dookie. Likewise, if you believe in good and evil powers being separate (regardless of their relation to each other) but actually it's all just raw power then sitting around waiting for the good, as angels or whatever, to step in and save your bacon is a waste of time--you make your own 'good vibrations' or you don't get any. Discuss among yourselves <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> .

by **anotherdrew** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:07 am

Personally I prefer amongst to among but that subject line pun could get me hung. . anyway, what makes you so sure there is a good or an evil? those are subjective judgments, always limited by available information and almost always strictly from a human perspective. Something that may seem evil may be the only thing to do to prevent a far worse evil, but then, who can be SURE of that? One man's good and great leader is another's dictator. My feeling is we are semi-stuck here in a very nasty, incorrectly created universe ruled by a jealous insane wannabe-god-child who has a number of helpers sometimes called archons. The least of the archons talks with the highest men of "the conspiracy" and perhaps helps them keep us "chattel" spirits in line, cut off from truth, ignorant. Thankfully, a representative of the real transcendent reality/the All/God came into this false creation and made sure that we had a spark of the real divine fire in all of us, right from the start (when we stood upright for the first time and learned to speak in language), such that we can never be cut off totally from the true god, deus absconditus. Now mix that with some serious buddist dhama, shake well and poor over ice. That's my drink. As for "power"... really it's just fiddling with the invisible machine of reality. The bad guys have it made here, the good folks can only hope to spread as much salvific gnosis around as possible so that people will have a chance of escaping from coming right back into this shit-hole in their next life. This is the kind of world where we don't get the luxury of only doing good acts. All that being said, there's no reason why things here on earth couldn't be much more pleasant than they are, it's just going to take some work, but what else is there to do? watch tv? As for getting there... Maybe that's where good's power comes in, since we can't really have a visible leader, without them getting killed real quick, the power of good reveals itself in self-organsing processes and gradual evolution. A non-human centric definition of good is: any anti-entropic process, like life.

by **Seventhsonjr** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:13 am

Damn, Banned, you ask fine questions here. To me neither one of your proposals is entirely satisfactory, altho each have some truth and are not necessarily exactly mutually exclusive. The way I see it is, as I recently read in Meher Baba who seems to use the Tibetan Buddhist perspective combined with Islamic and Zoroastrian thought (and some Christ or Jesus perpsectives), the Divine Creative power(s), with masculine and feminine attributes (mother/father god) as well as we humans, as reflections of that original divine and creative intelligence, contain the creative, sustaining and destructive elements which are pervasive throughout the universe. Via karma and reincarnation we experience the development of our souls towards our ultimate goal - the reunification with our own divine or cosmic consciousness, where we no longer are attached to the suffering delusions of material existence (as all material is temporary, suffering comes from attachment to it). In order for this development and consciousness raising and enlightenment to take place, we must experience all of the range of experiences in order for our soul to develop and mature and evolve. Suffering is also illusion as is evil and even good, to some extent (in the utlimate reality it is all part of the cosmic whole and utlimately "good" in the sense that it is what WE, our souls, want and need to realize ouselves, our own consciousnesses, as ultimatley divine. From this perspective there really is no "good" or "bad" in the ultimate scheme of things - but there is certainly evil and joy in the "mirage", the Maya of the cosmic dreamer who gives us consciousness in this illusion of the material world. From this perspective the lessons of humanity are necessary teaching experiences for the soul. Like in the old testamenet and new and elsewhere in sacred texts, the original creative power is behind all of what happens, which is "guided" to the purpose of enlightenment AND joy in the present environment where our souls reside (Earth 2005). Even the truly wicked and evil stuff (which is not necessarily so bad if it is for the benefit of our souls in eternity - just a meager trifle --as Lion Feuchtwanger called his complaints about life in a concentration camp because, ultimately, it was not that significantly negative to his spirituality and , as awful as it was, it helped him grow) - is "meant" to be for the growth of the soul. Princes and Kings and dictators and fascist all have their roles to play for better or worse in the development of the soul of humanity on the Earth - and are said to be governed by the divine. Free will makes this messy, though, and is too difficult to address at this moment in this post... I guess what I am saying is that I believe that evil and good exist in this material plane of illusion - of Maya. But in the ultimate scheme of things even the devil is said to have been Created by "God" and will be overcome by same. I also tend to believe that the souls of human beings (and animals I presume, but to a lesser extent) have this issue of "free will" to work out. In Tibetan philosophy, or variations of it, WE choose our lives, the suffering etc BECAUSE we are actually a part of "God" - we are one with God - but we just don't realize it because of our attachment to the material and impermanent. Only the creative force in the universe is infinite and eternal --- but WE are a part of that, living out this "whim" to live and experience all the possibilities of creation. We, on this plane, can be good or evil and it effects the entire cosmos becuase we are connected to it. But in the final analysis, if you believe in a divine creator (as I do simply based on the fact that since intelligence exists, it must come from SOMEWHERE and must be pervasive throughout the universe and I got a piece of it, but it ain't really mine, it belongs to my creator) - then there is a "purpose" to all this evil as well as the good. One is for our souls to grow. And suffering and destruction actually can help with that (believe me). I think the negative energy idea is not accurate. I do not believe in occult evil powers (I choose not to give such things credence) but I do believe in evil which is pervasive and natural - like love, in a universe of infinite possibility. I just do not believe there are dark necrophilic (nonhuman) spiritual powers which Want evil on the planet. I think stupid people want this evil though, and it is a fabric of our existences - the BFEE as a prime example. But There is no real devil, in my opinion, only a spiritual "reaper" who fulfills a divine mandate. The rest of the BFEE etc ARE evil, though, but still created by the divine for all of our growth. I realizethis is confusing. It is a deep question, but that was a partial stab at it. Maybe I will try to explain more later.

by **monster** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:16 am

IMO, not subjectively, but actually, if you've ever really felt evil then you'll know. It's a moot point whether good and evil are two things or one thing, they're kinda both, it's like you can't have mountains without valleys - two sides of the same coin. Good always wins in the end, but just barely. Why? Because if evil won, the game would be over, since evil intends to destroy. Only if good wins does the game go on. (I've got to cite Alan Watts on that one, it came straight from him). Anyway, I could say more weird things, but I'll keep it short for now and see how this discussion goes. Great prompt, BTW <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

by **anotherdrew** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:27 am

I thought I recognised that watts-ism monster, a good choice of quotes. But he's describing life (within the black iron prison)/mara. The lying false god fancies himself good and won't let it end by a total win for evil. But he may not be so bad either... another way to look at the same system might be that this is sort of a birthing pool for new conscious spirits and the archons and such are just keeping us kids from wondering into the deep water and getting lost, eventually we graduate from this pool into the wider sea of existence. Anyway yes, I'm not saying that the terms good and evil are meaningless. Just that they are not universal. Anything that wants to eat you is going to seem totally evil I think right? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/alien.gif ALT="0]"> If there is one true 'occult evil power' it is misleading/manipulating/lying you into doing the wrong thing with your free will. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anotherdrew>anotherdrew</A> at: 11/3/05 1:47 am

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:39 am

from What Is Occultism, which I've found helpful while struggling with the same questions: "Occult science [which elsewhere in the book she describes as the "link between psychology and religion; it gives the means of a spiritual approach to science, and a scientific approach to the spiritual life"], rightly understood, teaches us to regard all things as states of consciousness, and then shows us how to gain control of consciousness subjectively; which control, once acquired, is soon reflected objectively. By means of this conscious control we are able to manipulate the plane of the human mind. It is a power that is neither good nor evil in itself but only as it is used. The initiate of the Right-hand Path, dedicated to the service of God, conceives that it should be used solely for the purpose of bringing human consciousness to an awareness of God in all that that implies when understood in its fullest significance. He uses his knowledge of the mind to make it the instrument of the Spirit, in contradistinction to the initiate of the Left-hand Path, who uses his knowledge of the mind to make it the servant of his passions. Occultism can never be an end in itself nor a mere satisfaction of intellectual curiosity, but the most potent weapon in the hands of the intellect. Is it worth while for men of goodwill to learn to handle this terrible two-edged sword? It is not only worth while, but essential for the safety of the race, for so many men of ill-will have learnt to handle it."

by **jenz** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:33 am

tend to believe that good-evil arises as explanation of the polarities of individual v collective survival. hence it is dynamic, not absolute, and each position is open to be hi-jacked by either lone individuals (in personal sphere) or, more usually, individuals who rapidly collect a group round themselves. so war is intrinsically evil to you when it does not serve the ends of the group you believe you belong to, or threatens your individual survival. dulce et decorum est (while you have a force to fight for you, on a battleground away from you, for the good of the group you adhere to.) horrible and evil when it comes as helicopter gunships or anti-personnel shells or agent orange or du contamination. rules of engagement, to limit collateral damage in slogging it out, derived from this need to limit "evil" - ie try to ensure your respective groups survive, at least the figurehead or overlord does. I think religion arose from the necessity to assimilate and formalise understandings derived from the stress of living between these two sometimes opposing needs, survival as individual, and survival of the group on whom we depend for our survival. At the period of our history when this formalisation was beginning, there was also a necessity to come up with 'explanation' of factors outside human control which impinge on survival, we still search for these explanations. To be honest, when my brain is in, I don't believe that there is one or many God(s), but rather various expressions of remarkably similar rules for survival. The jury is out on what powers of the mind we have - sixth sense, collective mind, power of prayer. I take an opposite view to banned though, on the relative strengths of what for convenience we call good and evil. deriving from my definitions of these terms as being related to survival, and in the knowledge that as individuals, without groups, we are powerless, behaviour we generally characterise as evil, has within itself the seeds of its own destruction. It can only operate on a practical level by developing a shell of pseudo-good to hide in, when that shell is broken, so is its power. so, by pretending to work for good, (lets say Aryan values is the theme song) the destructive power we call evil, can draw a group of quite nice people around itself, - most being at the same time self deluded about their own motives, and deluded about how much they are going to be helped by the individual evil power centre. It helps no end if an exterior groupl can be scapegoated. Later, when it becomes apparent to that group members that the procedure is not risk free for them as individuals, that they have suffered too, and were led into acts which brought violent retribution, which probably they never envisaged, they will usually change viewpoint. "Occult" power is what? whatever you want it to mean, as is Christianity, say. means one thing in the hands of the grand inquisitor, another to Francis of Assissi. Evil is essentially grabbing the means for survival off your neighbour. or rather, grabbing as much as you can so you and your progeny will have, you suppose, a better chance of survival. grabbing as opposed to freely trading (not to be confused with the political free trade position!) There's rampant large scale evil stalking the world at the mo. because, we are all getting paranoid about survival. to an ra perpetrator it no doubt makes perfect sense that children should be used as a cost free source of wealth creation, and disposed of when not useful. but they know that this can only be pulled off if its hidden. pseudo religion helps to hide it. Doing what you want while harming no-one sounds fine, but how does that work in practice? I can't even make a cup of tea without depleting resources and exploiting people worse off than me. We are having problems adjusting our first tribal, then national allegiances to the reality of no boundaries. Those who feel the insecurities more keenly, are more prone to rush for cover in groupthink. is this too simplistic?

by **Trifecta** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:38 am

Occultism and all the miss directs your encounter on the way are in effect fear barriers, break the barriers down and you transcend to the next part of the mysteries of life. Understanding fully what it is to "manifest your own reality" is a very powerful tool, for good or evil and everything in between. Its focus, exploratory and leads up and down the rabbit hole ... maya. The mistake is the theory of "free will" you are the seed, you manifest your potential given your environments, one has "freedom of will" to change the environment, but not imho free will to do anything other than the essence contained in the seed. FWIW?

by **Homeless Halo** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:09 am

Tend to gravitate towards an amoralist standpoint on this particular issue. I do not believe in good or evil. I think they make wonderful "talking points", that is, they work well as vague descriptive terms but tend to make the issues less clear, as opposed to more. Occult power? I do not believe in a "thing", a force, or energy that would qualify in the strict sense. I don't believe in "immaterial" things, "spiritual" things, for that matter, either. Don't believe that any of this is so simple. I think that most of this is in our head. (singular) I have a tendency to attempt to regard these things in reductionist terminology. I find this is easier than speculations about things that cannot be shown to exist, ie aether, noumena, akasa, etc. I have spoken to many gods and demons, and none of them have convinced me of their objective validity. I do not think that one can find "truth" in the study of occultism. I think that "thing" we'd call "maya" or the veil, occludes whatever insight could be derived by our inherently dualist mindset. That is, I do not believe we are properly equipped, at present, to be able to describe this paradigm inside of our language barriers. Even practical "experience" with the occult reality cannot lead, in itself, to gnosis, as the ultimate reality always remains just out of the grasp of our logical framework. Such is the nature of reductionism. I could say, that I believe there is a "something" that has the ability to manifest as "Real" in our world, and holds the key to manipulate the perceptions and/or physical norms of this world. I do not think you could call it "good" or "evil". I think either term would be inadequate.

by **monster** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:33 am

Quite so, point taken. Evil for me, but good for whatever's having me as a snack. Tim Boucher posted in his forum about integrating the dark side instead of denying it. That makes more sense to me, because these casseiopeians who are all peace and love all the time make me absolutely sick. If heaven is all syrupy like that, give me hell, please, and quick. You can be a good person and still keep it real <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> Jeff, as always, concise and pertinent. "Regard all things as a state of consciousness." It's just like that, isn't it? Of course it doesn't feel that way 24/7, consensus reality, so forth, but I'll be damned if I don't know it to be true in my very core, my intuition that never lies to me. [feels a rant coming on] Someone famous said you could move a mountain if you had the faith of a mustard seed. Just recently I realized I can't run the fastest, I'm not the best businessman in the world, my house is messy, but what I can do, better than anyone else, if I try, is I can believe more than anyone else. These things I ponder, at the end of the day, do I believe them? Do I dare cross that rubicon where disembodied entities exist, even at 4 A.M., alone on a sleepless night, when I'd give anything for the comfort of consensus reality? Well I crossed it about six weeks ago. I determined that when the aether was as real to me as the wind on my face, and my luminous body was as real to me as my physical body, magic would happen. And I just can't go back. Consensus reality feels like somebody pissing on me and telling me it's raining. It's lukewarm, it's tepid, it's cowardly. I remember Jesus saying something like at least be cold or hot, but the lukewarm person sucks more than anyone. Maybe the casseiopeans have it right (on second thought, no.) and we're moving into fourth density because I feel, more than anything else, an irreversible change coming. It might be my personal transformation, or it might be planet earth, I don't know. [end of rant] Osculum Inflame, Very well said, I agree with all of it. I Forget where I read this quote: "I play the tune to which you must dance. You may improvise the steps. This is what you call free will."

by **anotherdrew** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Homeless Halo said: "I do not believe we are properly equipped, at present, to be able to describe this paradigm inside of our language barriers. Even practical "experience" with the occult reality cannot lead, in itself, to gnosis, as the ultimate reality always remains just out of the grasp of our logical framework. Such is the nature of reductionism."<hr></blockquote> yes, I agree with this. all we can get about what is beyond is a somewhat distorted image, like trying to describe in words a color to a person blind from birth. Words can't explain it and true gnosis while alive is elusive at best. However, being aware of these possibilities, even tho imperfectly understood, can be usefull while alive and may increase the chance of making a successful escape when the chance comes. It is a basicly religious position I'm taking here, and that kind of surprises me but I wouldn't call it a "Religion" in the formal sense.

by **Homeless Halo** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:42 am

Jeff: (Dion Fortune?) The reality of the occult world, as explained to me was very simple: "All of this is in your head". Sometimes it is frightening to realize that I am a current of electricity flowing across a pile of meat. I agree with monster (?) in the sense, that "Something" is/has happened(ing). Maybe on a personal level, maybe on a planetary scale. I think it has been happening for a long time. I think it is finally becoming aware of itself. I think of "us", mankind, as this huge entity, crawling across the gravity well, sliding ever forward, chained by our linear logic faculties. Someday, we will turn and see ourselves, stretched out across time, and realize that all those monsters we feared were only us. Perhaps then, we will have the strength to lift ourselves up. This is not to say that I don't believe in "outside" interests who would interfere in our development for their own ends. I would merely caution against interpreting these actions along the "good" and "evil" axis of thought. They, whatever they are, are probably just making sure that they come out of this as well as they can. We should expect so much, as this is how we behave. One day, the body of christ will rear his many ugly heads, and lift iself down from its cross. God help those who would hamper this development.

by **Connut** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:32 pm

My opinion? Like orifices, we've all got lots. I think there is a universal power/force, like electricity, that is not benign or evil but simply is. It doesn't care about us or not care. It Is. We can tap into this force and use it in any way we wish. It takes a lot of work to tap into it and most of us are too lazy to take responsibility for the effort. However, to tap into using the force for good means being good, responsible, caring, loving, compassionate, self-effacing (all that jolly boring stuff). To tap into using the force for the evil starts out as fun, excitement, seduction, (all that wonderful adrenaline-raising stuff) and once in deep enough, it unexpectedly turns into really icky shit that you have an even harder time detaching from. It's all the universal game of creativity. Anyhoo, that's what I think.

by **slimmouse** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:42 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think there is a universal power/force, like electricity, that is not benign or evil but simply is. It doesn't care about us or not care. It Is.<hr></blockquote> All of which is explained in somewhat stupefying simplicity in the book I mentioned in this thread; <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=1787.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...1787.topic</a> It is explained as the force of creation wishing to experience itself. It is also explained that the ultimate outcome is never in doubt. It is explained that knowing everything is one thing, but experiencing it through creation is quite something else. And for anyone who believes that this is more religious hokus pokus, then fair enough. But it seems incredibly accurate with regard to the "organised religion" deal as far as I can see. All That Is gets 10/10 for me on that one <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

by **thrulookingglass** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:37 pm

Good/Evil as tangible forces…definitely a subject worthy of the best scholars. IMHO, I believe in the physical, nuts & bolts, action/reaction universe of physical (if permeable) laws of science and manifestations there of. I feel we as humans lend power to positive/negative forces by “believing in them” and/or taking actions to manifest deeds which bear out negative or positive circumstance. I’ve used this simple analogy of the positive energy (or good, if you will) snowball and the negative snowball. When you do something “good/bad”, you pack a little snow onto the “good/bad” snowball; you can guess which one is currently bigger. I also believe that there are alien forces/beings that have posed as gods or demons or messengers of god(s) to corrupt/interrupt/distract/guide human development on earth. I’m not sure how this factors into this “occult” belief. I do not believe in the worship of false gods, and believe we lend them credence/power by believing/worshipping them, whether misguided or not. Most beings we describe as Gods are too human a construct for me to accept. I do not believe that good always triumphs over evil; I believe we are responsible for our fate. And if we want things to turn out rosy, we better get our shit together real soon.

Question on the power underlying the occult.

Question on the power underlying the occult.

"Discuss among yourselves" any one of us could :)

Re: Question on the power underlying the occult.

There IS good and evil

"I do not believe in occult evil powers"

Here's another quote from Dion Fortune,

dichotomy

That about sums it up

good v evil

Being eaten

Re: good v evil

snacks

For What it's Worth

Re: For What it's Worth

Re: less than useful

Who is online