'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

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Re: dangerous?

Postby jingofever » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:41 pm

If the Gospel according to Judas is going to be dangerous it is because it is coming out during this DaVinci code furor. The old time Catholic Church tried real hard to suppress a lot of teachings and those teachings have a way of springing up. This particularly incendiary one has been allowed to pop up during a money making opportunity. Previous unreleased gospels do not seem to have led a mass exodus to gnosticism but maybe now the time is right. Maybe God was sleeping in Hicksville, NY? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The Gospel of Judas "surfaces"

Postby isachar » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:49 pm

Rothbard, how many copies of each of the Dead Sea Scrolls were there?<br><br>sheesh.<br><br>Authentication is important, don't get me wrong. but your 'only one copy' argument is utterly specious. <p></p><i></i>
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Postby thoughtographer » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:47 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There are two known things in the universe, energy and matter. One could reasonably expect an oral tradition to explain this could be elaborate, symbolic, or told with characters through songs, poems, epics, written stories, to be passed down through generations. If one is evil, and the other good, than which is which, or are they equal opposites, it becomes easy to see how matter and energy can become light and darkness, good and evil, the heavenly world and the underworld.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>The HBO Series: Carnivale was a decent and compelling continuation of this tradition, if you ask me. Sadly, we'll never see the complete story as it was meant to be. They even threw people like Wilfred Talbot Smith into the mix. I figured I throw this out as an aside. If any other fans of the series would like to discuss this, start another thread. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=thoughtographer>thoughtographer</A> at: 4/7/06 2:23 pm<br></i>
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Re: The Gospel of Judas "surfaces"

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:24 pm

Dreams End wrote-<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I'm not sure why this is such a "threat".<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>When the New York Times prints it, one should wonder where it fits in the culture war's agit prop market place of divisive ideas.<br><br>"Must be a sign from above."<br><br>This information is already in a 2006 book that is on the shelf of my local bookstore so I think it is interesting that the 'news' story is running the day after the evolution science story about discovering the 'missing link.'<br><br>Holding up the morale of the Christian Soldier mentality is in play, I think.<br><br>The 'War on Terra' is being sold to TV Nation as a religious war, with support from 'The Davinci Code' and Pat Robertson's fatwa on Hugo Chavez.<br><br>Consider that Republican dominionist Lindsay Graham mentioned recently that we should be worrying about "fifth columnists" here at home who "sympathize with our enemies."<br><br>And Bill O'Reilly is routinely urging angry Americans to go get the traitors among us denying us glorious victories like so many Doubting Thomases or, even worse, Judases.<br><br>And the movie 'V for Vendetta,' etc. etc.<br><br>All harvesting hostility to be channelled against Muslims and other infidels.<br><br>So it is time for Jesus-loving war-supporting Americans to go get the traitors opposing the Gitmo Inquisition and use of Our Lord's Heavenly Depleted Uranium Bombs. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 4/7/06 7:23 pm<br></i>
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Re: 'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Postby Dreams End » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:37 pm

More radical gospels that have been around for years. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>Gospel of Phillip<br><br>Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.<br><br>-----------snip-------------<br><br>Those who say that the Lord died first and (then) rose up are in error, for he rose up first and (then) died. If one does not first attain the resurrection, he will not die. As God lives, he would [...].<br><br>Gospel of Thomas<br><br>12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?<br><br>Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." (note, James is the brother of Jesus, something denied by conservative Catholic theology that insists Mary must have REMAINED a virgin to be considered sinless, even after the birth of Jesus. )<br><br>------------------snip-------------------------<br><br>37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"<br><br>Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid." <br><br>(note that Thomas is interesting for how many sayings of Jesus accepted by the church in the canonical gospels are in this gospel. Thomas, allegedly, is the "disciple whom Jesus loved." It is also thought by biblical scholars that Thomas may in fact be OLDER than any of the currently accepted gospels. However, like Phillip, this document has been around since 1945 and is part of the Nag Hammadi find. Plenty more <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html">here.</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->)<br><br>Here's the "Sophia (female personification of Wisdom) of Jesus Christ:<br><br>"The Lord of the Universe is not called 'Father', but 'Forefather', the beginning of those that will appear, but he (the Lord) is the beginningless Forefather. Seeing himself within himself in a mirror, he appeared resembling himself, but his likeness appeared as Divine Self-Father, and <as> Confronter over the Confronted ones, First Existent Unbegotten Father. He is indeed of equal age <with> the Light that is before him, but he is not equal to him in power.<br><br>"And afterward was revealed a whole multitude of confronting, self-begotten ones, equal in age and power, being in glory (and) without number, whose race is called 'The Generation over Whom There Is No Kingdom' from the one in whom you yourselves have appeared from these men. And that whole multitude over which there is no kingdom is called 'Sons of Unbegotten Father, God, Savior, Son of God,' whose likeness is with you. Now he is the unknowable, who is full of ever-imperishable glory and ineffable joy. They all are at rest in him, ever rejoicing in ineffable joy in his unchanging glory and measureless jubilation; this was never heard or known among all the aeons and their worlds until now." <br><br>Matthew said to him: "Lord, Savior, how was Man revealed?"<br>The perfect Savior said: "I want you to know that he who appeared before the universe in infinity, Self-grown, Self-constructed Father, being full of shining light and ineffable, in the beginning, when he decided to have his likeness become a great power, immediately the principle (or beginning) of that Light appeared as Immortal Androgynous Man, that through that Immortal Androgynous Man they might attain their salvation and awake from forgetfulness through the interpreter who was sent, who is with you until the end of the poverty of the robbers.<br><br>"And his consort is the Great Sophia, who from the first was destined in him for union by Self-begotten Father, from Immortal Man, who appeared as First and divinity and kingdom, for the Father, who is called 'Man, Self-Father', revealed this. And he created a great aeon, whose name is 'Ogdoad', for his own majesty.<br><br>"He was given great authority, and he ruled over the creation of poverty. He created gods and angels, <and> archangels, myriads without number for retinue, from that Light and the tri-male Spirit, which is that of Sophia, his consort. For from this, God originated divinity and kingdom. Therefore he was called 'God of gods' and 'King of kings'.<br><br>"First Man has his unique mind, within, and thought - just as he is it (thought) - (and) considering, reflecting, rationality, power. All the attributes that exist are perfect and immortal. In respect to imperishableness, they are indeed equal. (But) in respect to power, they are different, like the difference between father and son <, and son> and thought, and the thought and the remainder. As I said earlier, among the things that were created, the monad is first.<br><br>"And after everything, all that was revealed appeared from his power. And from what was created, all that was fashioned appeared; from what was fashioned appeared what was formed; from what was formed, what was named. Thus came the difference among the unbegotten ones from beginning to end."<br><br>Then Bartholomew said to him: "How (is it that) <he> was designated in the Gospel 'Man' and 'Son of Man'? To which of them, then, is this Son related?"<br>The Holy One said to him: "I want you to know that First Man is called 'Begetter, Self-perfected Mind'. He reflected with Great Sophia, his consort, and revealed his first-begotten, androgynous son. His male name is designated 'First Begetter, Son of God', his female name, 'First Begettress Sophia, Mother of the Universe'. Some call her 'Love'. Now First-begotten is called 'Christ'. Since he has authority from his father, he created a multitude of angels without number for retinue from Spirit and Light."<br><br>His disciples said to him: "Lord, reveal to us about the one called 'Man', that we also may know his glory exactly."<br>The perfect Savior said: "Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear. First Begetter Father is called 'Adam, Eye of Light,' because he came from shining Light, and his holy angels, who are ineffable (and) shadowless, ever rejoice with joy in their reflecting, which they received from their Father. The whole Kingdom of Son of Man, who is called 'Son of God,' is full of ineffable and shadowless joy, and unchanging jubilation, (they) rejoicing over his imperishable glory, which has never been heard until now, nor has it been revealed in the aeons that came afterward, and their worlds. I came from Self-begotten and First Infinite Light, that I might reveal everything to you."<br><br>Again, his disciples said: "Tell us clearly how they came down from the invisibilities, from the immortal to the world that dies?"<br>The perfect Savior said: "Son of Man consented with Sophia, his consort, and revealed a great androgynous light. His male name is designated 'Savior, Begetter of All Things'. His female name is designated 'All-Begettress Sophia'. Some call her 'Pistis'.<br><br><br><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>On and on it goes. Gnosticism was, indeed, anathema to the church. I just grabbed these to show very different perpspectives on God, Jesus and Christianity from lost Gospels that have been known since 1945. <br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Postby rothbardian » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:37 am

Issachar--<br><br>You were saying there is only 'one copy' of the various Dead Sea Scrolls. But there were as many as 20-30 copies of some of the individual Old Testament books found WITHIN the Scrolls. <br><br>And since each of the Old Testament books were represented (except a couple), there are, in fact, many thousands of ancient copies of O.T. writings, all over the world.<br><br>I have no 'absolute' rule against there being a solitary copy of something...I'm just saying this is VERY dubious. The fact that no one made copies indicates, at best, that it was rejected as 'phony baloney' by the contemporary community. At worst, this is the latest sophistication in forgery.<br><br>---------------------------------<br>It is utterly arbitrary, by the way, to simply declare that there must have been a Catholic conspiracy to destroy all those copies. There were hundreds of thousands of Christ-followers who had nothing to do with the official state church, and paid absolutely no heed to it <br><br>If there had been something credible about the Judas document, these folks would have done the same thing they always did for hundreds of years even BEFORE the state-sanctioned church---they would have risked life and limb, defying all authority, to get their hands on the information.<br><br>And I certainly don't perceive this document to be a 'threat' or a challenge. As poster CharlesWatkins said, in so many words...the content of Judas is prima facie absurdity in terms of Biblical morality and values. The illogic that Judas did good by betraying Jesus, is pretty scary stuff.<br><br>I find the reasoning to be very similar to that of Jacob Frank, a particularly obnoxious Satanist from the 18th century who promoted the idea of inverting the Ten Commandments. He told his followers that by living an immoral life, it would cause those around them to long for improved morality, and thus they would make the world a better place. Horrific nonsense.<br><br>(He also taught them to undergo false conversions to other religions...which he later did himself, and ended up working for Austrian royals, as a 'Christian' apologist. FYI)<br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Postby isachar » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:23 pm

roth, you seem to equate the Dead Sea Scrolls with the Pentatuch. <br><br>Some are related, some are not. Some are entirely unique.<br><br>As best I can recall, without going back to check my original source materials, the unique Dead Sea scrolls (not part of the Pentatuch such as the War Scroll, the Copper Scroll), are indeed unique and are the only known single copies in existence.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Postby isachar » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:59 pm

Roth, my point was there are several Dead Sea Scrolls that exist as single distinct individual scrolls. They are the only copies yet known to have been found or exist. It's been too many years since I read them all (translated versions) to cite each of their names.<br><br>What are known as the Dead Sea Scrolls ARE NOT the Pentatuch (five books, or "Old Testament" as it is more popularly known). This seems to be your point of confusion.<br><br>The unique Dead Sea Scrolls to which I refer were found at Qum'ran near the Dead Sea. They were part of a library of scrolls held by the Essenes (or deposited with them for safekeeping). Books of the Pentatuch were also held in their library at Qum'ran as well.<br><br>BUT, each of what are commonly known as the Dead Sea Scrolls (I am referring specifically to the non-Pentatuch scrolls) are unique. No other copies are known to exist.<br><br>Two of these unique scrolls whose names I remember are the "War Scroll" (the sons of light against the sons of darkness scroll) and the Copper Scroll (this might also be referred to by some as the "Treasure Scroll"). There are others whose names I cannot recall at the moment. Yet, virtually all biblical scholars believe these two unique unduplicated scrolls and the other non-Pentatuch scrolls to be authentic.<br><br>The existence of these single unique scrolls would invalidate your point - that the existence of a single copy of a document argues for that documents' inauthenticity.<br><br>Nuff' said unless you have something more authoritative to offer on the subject. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Postby Col Quisp » Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:03 pm

DE quoted:]<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Matthew said to him: "Lord, Savior, how was Man revealed?"<br>The perfect Savior said: "I want you to know that he who appeared before the universe in infinity, Self-grown, Self-constructed Father, being full of shining light and ineffable, in the beginning, when he decided to have his likeness become a great power, immediately the principle (or beginning) of that Light appeared as Immortal Androgynous Man, that through that Immortal Androgynous Man they might attain their salvation and awake from forgetfulness through the interpreter who was sent, who is with you until the end of the poverty of the robbers.<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This sounds like New Age claptrap. Not that I'm doubting its authenticity. I'm just saying, it's rather like the Law of One or others of that ilk. "Immortal Androgynous Man??" What a whacko.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Postby Dreams End » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:10 am

standard gnostic fare. The "New Age" isn't that new. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Postby James Redford » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:48 am

"Jesus says: 'Whoever has come to know the world has found a corpse. And whoever has found this corpse, of him the world is not worthy.' "--the Gospel of Thomas, No. 56, translated by Stephen J. Patterson and James M. Robinson: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm">www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I've read the Gospel of Judas that is on the New York Times website ( <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/judastxt.pdf">www.nytimes.com/packages/...dastxt.pdf</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> ). As a whole it's not very coherent, as a lot of the text of it is missing.<br><br>Far more interesting is the below ancient text:<br><br>The Hypostasis of the Archons (i.e., The Reality of the Rulers):<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html">www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>The above ancient Christian scripture is from the Nag Hammadi texts. As Elaine Pagels wrote in her book The Gnostic Gospels ( <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html">www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr...agels.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> ) concerning the Nag Hammadi texts:<br><br>""<br>What Muhammad 'Alí [al-Sammán] discovered at Nag Hammadi, it soon became clear, were Coptic translations, made about 1,500 years ago, of still more ancient manuscripts. The originals themselves had been written in Greek, the language of the New Testament: as Doresse, Puech, and Quispel had recognized, part of one of them had been discovered by archeologists about fifty years earlier, when they found a few fragments of the original Greek version of the Gospel of Thomas.<br>""<br><br>The above text of The Hypostasis of the Archons starts off with a reference to Paul writing in Ephesians 6:12 (for more on this, see below).<br><br>It should be noted that in Genesis, the word which is usually translated as "God" is in the Hebrew *gods* (i.e., *elohim*), which is plural. This is the reason that the English translations have "God" referring to "himself" (rather, themselves) in the plural (e.g., "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ..." [Gen. 1:26]).<br><br>Jesus and the New Testament teach that Satan (a.k.a. Samael*) is the god of this world and that Satan is the ultimate ruler over all of the earthly governments, and that Jesus in His Second Coming is to utterly abolish all forms of mortal government and destory all of the mortal rulers of the earth, making the truth-seekers in this world absolute self-rulers and kings of their own domain upon the earth.<br><br>It's interesting to note that the Satanists also recognize Satan as being the god of this world--to quote Madame Blavatsky (i.e., the Mother of the New Age movement), 32° of the Ancient and Accepted Primitive Rite Grand Orient of France and founder of the Theosophical Society, on this, "It is 'Satan who is the god of our planet and the only god,' and this without any allusive metaphor to its wickedness and depravity." That quote is opposite a page entitled "HOLY SATAN" in her book The Secret Doctrine (1888), Vol. II, pg. 234. For many more such quotes from highly regarded, high-level Masonic authors, see further below.<br><br>Indeed, the Yezidis, most of whom are in Iraq, and who quite literally worship Lucifer, likewise recognize Lucifer as the god and ruler of the Earth. Their religion has existed since at least the 12th century. For more on that, see "Sympathy for the devil in a land where Lucifer reigns," Lynne O'Donnell, Irish Times, April 21, 2003 ( <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2003/0421/4209123277FR21LUCIFER.html">www.ireland.com/newspaper...CIFER.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> ).<br><br>Directly below is the New Testament doctrine on this matter:<br><br>1 Corinthians 2:6-8: However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [NKJV, as below.]<br><br>1 Corinthians 15:23,24: But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.<br><br>2 Corinthians 4:3,4: But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.<br><br>Ephesians 6:12: For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.<br><br>Luke 4:5-8: Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."<br><br>And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'" [See also Matt. 4:8-10.]<br><br>Revelation 13:2: Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon [Satan] gave him his power, his throne, and great authority [i.e., over all the governments of the earth].<br><br>John 12:31: [Jesus:] "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."<br><br>John 14:30: [Jesus:] "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me."<br><br>John 16:8-11: [Jesus:] "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."<br><br>Revelation 19:19-21: And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest [i.e., all the kings of the earth and their armies] were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.<br><br>To properly understand the context of all of what is presented within this post, see my below article, first published at Anti-State.com:<br><br>"Jesus Is an Anarchist," James Redford, revised and expanded edition, November 9, 2005 (originally published on December 19, 2001):<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/anarchist-jesus.pdf">www.geocities.com/vonchlo...-jesus.pdf</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>####################<br><br>* <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.satan2000.com/images/LEVI-BAPHOMET.gif">www.satan2000.com/images/...PHOMET.gif</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>Freemason writer Eliphas Levi's head of Baphomet, i.e., the Devil, or Satan. Here's an interesting quote from Eliphas Levi:<br><br>"What is more absurd and more impious than to attribute the name of Lucifer to the devil, that is, to personified evil. The intellectual Lucifer is the spirit of intelligence and love; it is the paraclete, it is the Holy Spirit, while the physical Lucifer is the great agent of universal magnetism."--Eliphas Levi, Freemason of the Grand Orient of France, The Mysteries of Magic, pg. 428<br><br>Albert Pike's magnum opus, Morals and Dogma, is still pased out to members of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry in the U.S., and he has been termed by a number of well known Masonic authors as the Plato of Freemasonry, and even the Masonic Pope. Here is some interesting quotes of Albert Pike from his book Morals and Dogma:<br><br>"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"--Albert Pike, 33° Freemason and Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33° (Southern Jurisidiction, U.S.A.), Morals and Dogma (1871), "19°—Grand Pontiff," pg. 321: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/apikefr.html">www.freemasons-freemasonr...ikefr.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> , <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm">www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>What's particularly interesting about Albert Pike's above quote, beyond his praising Lucifer, is that in said quote Pike is asserting that Freemasonry at the highest levels is Luciferianism, since Pike identifies Lucifer as the bearer of the "Light" which is the goal of Freemasonry. As Albert Pike says of this "Light" below: <br><br>"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled, to conceal the truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it."--Albert Pike, 33° Freemason and Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33° (Southern Jurisidiction, U.S.A.), Morals and Dogma (1871), pg. 104: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/apikefr.html">www.freemasons-freemasonr...ikefr.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> , <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm">www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>As Albert Pike further states:<br><br>"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry ... It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain."--Albert Pike, 33° Freemason and Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33° (Southern Jurisidiction, U.S.A.), Morals and Dogma (1871): <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/apikefr.html">www.freemasons-freemasonr...ikefr.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> , <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm">www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion."--Albert Pike, 33° Freemason and Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33° (Southern Jurisidiction, U.S.A.), Morals and Dogma (1871), pg. 213: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/apikefr.html">www.freemasons-freemasonr...ikefr.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> , <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm">www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"If your wife, child, or friend should ask you anything about your invitation--as for instance, if your clothes were taken off, if you were blind folded, if you had a rope tied around you neck, etc., you must conceal ... hence of course you must deliberately lie about it. It is part of your obligation ..."--Albert Pike, 33° Freemason and Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33° (Southern Jurisidiction, U.S.A.), Morals and Dogma (1871), pg. 74: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/apikefr.html">www.freemasons-freemasonr...ikefr.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> , <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm">www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>""<br>There is in nature one most potent force, by means whereof single man, who could possess himself of it, and should know how to direct it, could revolutionize and change the face of the world.<br><br>This force was known to the ancients. It is a universal age whose supreme law is equilibrium; and whereby, if science can but learn how to control it, it will be possible to change the order of the Seasons, to produce in night the phenomena of day, to send a thought in an instant round the world, to heal or slay at a distance, to give our words universal success, a make them reverberate everywhere.<br><br>This agent, partially revealed by the blind guesses of the disciples of Mesmer, is precisely what the Adepts of the middle ages called the elementary matter of the great work. The Gnostics held that it composed the igneous body of the Holy Spirit; it was adored in the secret rites of the Sabbat or the Temple, under the hieroglyphic figure of Baphomet or the hermaphrodic goat of Mendes.<br>""<br>--Albert Pike, 33° Freemason and Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33° (Southern Jurisidiction, U.S.A.), Morals and Dogma (1871): <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/apikefr.html">www.freemasons-freemasonr...ikefr.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> , <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm">www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Below are quotes from other high-level, highly influential, and highly regarded Masonic authors:<br><br>""<br>There exists in the world today, and has existed for thousands of years, a body of enlightened humans united in what might be termed, an Order of the Quest. It is composed of those whose intellectual and spiritual perceptions have revealed to them that civilization has secret destiny ...<br><br>The outcome of this "secret destiny" is a World Order ruled by a King with supernatural powers.<br><br>This King was descended of a divine race; that is, he belonged to the Order of the Illumined, for those who come to a state of wisdom then belong to a family of heroes--perfected human beings.<br>""<br>--Manly Palmer Hall, 33° Freemason, The Secret Destiny of America (1958)<br><br>"Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity. ... an outer organization concealing an inner Brotherhood of the elect ... it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum."--Manley Palmer Hall, 33° Freemason, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy, pg. 433<br><br>"When The Mason learns that the Key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the Mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy."--Manly Palmer Hall, 33° Freemason, The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry, pg. 48<br><br>"I hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a human soul to do with as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the treasures of the earth and fulfil my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed ....... {Invocant signs pact with his own blood}"--Manly Palmer Hall, 33° Freemason, The Secret Teachings of All Ages (1928), pg. CIV: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/19981203083524/http://www.brotherblue.org/libers/manly.htm">web.archive.org/web/19981.../manly.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> , <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/Text/Magick/Misc/manly.txt">www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/.../manly.txt</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"Manly Hall's great work is a classic in the world's literature. It will guide historians, philosophers, and lay seekers of esoteric wisdom for centuries."--Edgar Mitchell, Sc.D., Apollo 14 Astronaut, on Manly Palmer Hall's The Secret Teachings of All Ages, published by The Philosophical Research Society (P.R.S.): <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.prs.org/secret.htm">www.prs.org/secret.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>""<br>Illustrious Manly Palmer Hall, often called "Masonry's Greatest Philosopher" ...<br><br>Like Grand Commander Albert Pike before him, [Illustrious] Hall did not teach a new doctrine but was an ambassador of an ageless tradition of wisdom that enriches us to this day. ... The world is a far better place because of Manly Palmer Hall, and we are better persons for having known him and his work.<br>""<br>--Scottish Rite Journal, September 1990<br><br>"Lucifer comes to give us the final gift of wholeness. If we accept it, then he is free and we are free. That is the Luciferic initiation. It is one that many people now, and in the days ahead, will be facing, for it is an initiation into the New Age."--David Spangler, Director of United Nations Planetary Initiative, Reflections on the Christ (1978), pg. 45<br><br>The influence that these high-level occultist writers have had on recent history cannot be underestimated. For example, Hitler's obsession with the concept of the Aryan Race is very much an occultic doctrine which can be traced back to, in part, Madame Blavatsky's writings.<br><br>""<br>The true esoteric view about "Satan," the opinion held on this subject by the whole philosophic antiquity, is admirably brought out in an appendix, entitled "The Secret of Satan," to the second edition of Dr. A. Kingsford's "Perfect Way." No better and clearer indication of the truth could be offered to the intelligent reader, and it is therefore quoted here at some length: --<br><br>...<br><br>It is "Satan who is the god of our planet and the only god," and this without any allusive metaphor to its wickedness and depravity. For he is one with the Logos, "the first son, eldest of the gods," in the order of microcosmic (divine) evolution; Saturn (Satan), astronomically, "is the seventh and last in the order of macrocosmic emanation, being the circumference of the kingdom of which Phoebus (the light of wisdom, also the Sun) is the centre." The Gnostics were right, then, in calling the Jewish god "an angel of matter," or he who breathed (conscious) life into Adam, and he whose planet was Saturn.<br><br>34. "And God hath put a girdle about his loins (the rings of Saturn), and the name of the girdle is Death."<br><br>In anthropogony this "girdle" is the human body with its two lower principles, which three die, while the innermost man is immortal.<br>""<br>--Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, founder of the Theosophical Society, the "mother of the New Age movement," and 32° Freemason of the Ancient and Accepted Primitive Rite Grand Orient of France, The Secret Doctrine (1888), Vol. II, pp. 233-235 (starting on a page entitled "HOLY SATAN"): <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm">www.theosociety.org/pasad.../sd-hp.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"Lucifer is divine and terrestrial light, the 'Holy Ghost' and 'Satan,' at one and the same time, visible Space being truly filled with the differentiated Breath invisibly; and the Astral Light, the manifested effects of the two who are one, guided and attracted by ourselves, is the Karma of humanity, both a personal and impersonal entity: personal, because it is the mystic name given by St. Martin to the Host of divine Creators, guides and rulers of this planet; impersonal, as the Cause and effect of universal Life and Death."--Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, founder of the Theosophical Society, the "mother of the New Age movement," and 32° Freemason of the Ancient and Accepted Primitive Rite Grand Orient of France, The Secret Doctrine (1888), Vol. II, pg. 513: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm">www.theosociety.org/pasad.../sd-hp.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"First Conjuration Addressed to Emperor Lucifer. Emperor Lucifer, Master and Prince of Rebellious Spirits, I adjure thee to leave thine abode, in what-ever quarter of the world it may be situated and come hither to communicate with me."--Arthur Edward Waite, 33° Freemason, The Book of Black Magic, pg. 244<br><br>"For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim."--Aleister Crowley, "The Beast 666," 33° Freemason, Magick in Theory and Practice (Castle Books, 1929), pg. 95<br><br>"Those magicians who object to the use of blood have endeavoured to replace it with incense ... But the bloody sacrifice, though more dangerous, is more efficacious; and for nearly all purposes human sacrifice is best."--Aleister Crowley, "The Beast 666," 33° Freemason, Magick in Theory and Practice (Castle Books, 1929)<br><br>""<br>I bind my blood in Satan's hands,<br>All this that lieth betwixt my hands.<br>To thee, the Beast, and thy control,<br>I pledge me; body, mind, and soul.<br>""<br>--Aleister Crowley, "The Beast 666," 33° Freemason, Satanic Extracts (Black Lodge Publishing, 1991), pg. 3<br><br>""<br>I swear to work my Work abhorred,<br>Careless of all but one reward,<br>The pleasure of the Devil our Lord.<br>""<br>--Aleister Crowley "The Beast 666," 33° Freemason, Satanic Extracts (Black Lodge Publishing, 1991), pg. 4 <p>-------<br><br>"Documentation on Government-Staged Terrorism," September 30, 2005:<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.armleg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2&mforum=libertyandtruth">www.armleg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2&mforum=libertyandtruth</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>"Jesus Is an Anarchist," James Redford, revised and expanded edition, November 9, 2005 (originally published on December 19, 2001):<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/anarchist-jesus.pdf">www.geocities.com/vonchloride/anarchist-jesus.pdf</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></p><i></i>
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Gospel of Judas

Postby rothbardian » Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:43 am

Isachar et al---<br><br>Let me just restate and stand by my initial comments...<br> "each of the Old Testament books were represented (except a couple)" among the Dead Sea Scrolls. <br><br>AND...<br> "...there were as many as 20-30 copies of some of the individual Old Testament books found WITHIN the Scrolls." <br><br>Here is a little documentation to back this up-- From "25 Dead Sea Scrolls Facts." <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html">www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> :<br><br>"Fragments of every book of the Hebrew canon (Old Testament) have been discovered [among the Dead Sea Scrolls] except for the book of Esther." <br><br>"There are now identified among the scrolls, 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms." <br><br>AND since the D.S.S. contains almost all the books of the Bible's Old Testament there are consequently, thousands of copies of Dead Sea Scroll documents all over the world.<br><br>By the way, the Pentateuch refers to the first five books of the Old Testament, not the entire O.T. Thirty-eight of the O.T. books are represented among the Dead Sea Scrolls.<br>---<br><br>I understand your point about the fact that there were a number of unique documents found there also...and as I said, I have no absolute rule against finding lone copies of ancient manuscripts but I'm applying (what I consider to be) a little common sense here. <br><br>In regards the Dead Sea Scrolls -- the thrust of the effort there was to hide and protect existing writings. These people stashed their documents in caves. That gives us a solid and obvious explanation as to why there were no copies made. <br><br>BY CONTRAST, the obvious intent of writing a 'gospel' (a Jesus bio) is NOT to stash it away and hide it but rather the opposite. Clearly, whoever wrote it (if indeed it WAS written in antiquity, and not over at the Rockefeller Mind-Control/Alien-Cloning/Manuscript-Forging Laboratories) was trying to tell a story and wanted to publish that story..spread it far and wide.<br><br>Therefore, the fact that there is only one copy of this thing, is quite conspicuous. Why are there thousands and thousands of copies of the Biblical gospels and of the other writings that made it into the Biblical canon...but only one copy of Judas exists? <br><br>Again, it is either because it was viewed as 'baloney' by the contemporary community and nobody could be bothered to make a copy...or because there WAS no copy. Nothing but a twinkle in David Rockefeller's babyblues until he sent instructions over to the lab.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Gospel of Judas

Postby isachar » Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:30 am

Roth, glad you recognize now that there are a number of individually unique single copies of authentic proto-biblical texts among the DSS. This negates your point that the Gospel of Judas being the only single copy argues against its authenticity. Authenticity is always something that must be questioned of such relics and documents, and sometimes judgments about such items are found to have been wrong - like for instance what turned out to be the fake ossuary of Jesus' brother a few years back. But the fact that it was subsequently determined to be inauthentic speaks prettty well for the process - an error was found, ultimately recognized, and corrected.<br><br>I suspect the Gospel of Judas will be subject to very vigorous review over the next few years.<br><br>However, it appears you continue to remain confused by assuming certain synchronicity of "intent" and events, to wit, your statement that:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"BY CONTRAST, the obvious intent of writing a 'gospel' (a Jesus bio) is NOT to stash it away and hide it but rather the opposite. Clearly, whoever wrote it (if indeed it WAS written in antiquity, and not over at the Rockefeller Mind-Control/Alien-Cloning/Manuscript-Forging Laboratories) was trying to tell a story and wanted to publish that story..spread it far and wide.<br><br>Therefore, the fact that there is only one copy of this thing, is quite conspicuous. Why are there thousands and thousands of copies of the Biblical gospels and of the other writings that made it into the Biblical canon...but only one copy of Judas exists?"</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>While it may have been the "intent" of the original author(s) to have their gospel accepted and widely read, subsequent events may have caused certain writings to attain heretical or subversive status. And, indeed, this was the case with much of the Coptic Gospels, as Pagel's and others have documented. This alternative tradition became stringently opposed by the PTB's of the time - originally, by those who won the power struggle over the early Judeo/Christic 'church' and morphed it into what became the Christic/Pauline tradition, and ultimately by those who adopted the Christic/Pauline dogma/tradition as a method to maintain and impose imperial power (Rome).<br><br>The Coptic traditions went underground throughout much of the Empire. The Nag Hammadi library, and a Coptic tradition, was able to be maintained at all is likely because it was so far distant (way upriver on the Nile) from the epicenters of Roman power, even though it was persecuted and had to go 'underground' for substantial periods of time throughout history.<br><br>You seem to be compelled to view things through your particular religio-historical beliefs. This probably leads to your tendency to oversimplify events and ignore the historical dynamic.<br><br>Pagels books are quite good. <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>When God Was a Woma</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->n is a wonderful exposition into the driving underground of the female deity tradition and also provides some insight into why Mary's role was also suppressed. You may also want to get a couple of Brandon's books (<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Jesus and the Zealots</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> I believe is one of the titles). If you have an inquiring mind you may find these thrilling. They are part of the secret history that the Catholic/Christic/Pauline dogma and tradition have actively suppressed for almost 2,000 years. <br><br>If you have a mind that is blinded by and tied to years of religous dogma you will probably find them objectionable or heretical. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Passover Plot</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> (Skolnick?) is also quite interesting. It was considered quite revolutionary when it was first published sometime in the 60's as I recall.<br><br>Then, you might want to the the DSS and the Nag Hammadi texts.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Interesting Speculation

Postby antiaristo » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:03 pm

Filched from Driftglass<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://driftglass.blogspot.com/">driftglass.blogspot.com/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Friday, April 07, 2006<br>It reads <br><br><br>“Get your fucking hands off my son!”<br><br>(Actually it’s a photo of the Coptic script of the Gospel of Judas via National Geographic)<br><br>File this under: The Real, True Adventures of Jesus and his Kid.<br><br>OK, none of this is original to me. <br><br>Some I’d read, some I’ve picked up talking to Jesuits and much of it I got through a series of letters that a good friend of mine assembled several years ago when he was getting his thoughts on paper.<br><br>No, I have never read “The DaVinci Code” (I started it and found it to be similar-if-not-outright-derivative of things I’d already read, and the writing was, well, turgid) so if this is too overlapful of that, skip it.<br><br>First, by way of setup, this fascinating story from the Los Angeles Time:<br><br><br><br>Manuscript Indicates Jesus Urged Judas' Betrayal<br>From Associated Press<br><br>12:47 PM PDT, April 6, 2006<br><br>WASHINGTON — For 2,000 years Judas has been reviled for betraying Jesus. Now a newly translated ancient document seeks to tell his side of the story.<br><br>The "Gospel of Judas" tells a far different tale from the four gospels in the New Testament. It portrays Judas as a favored disciple who was given special knowledge by Jesus -- and who turned him in at Jesus' request.<br><br>"You will be cursed by the other generations -- and you will come to rule over them," Jesus tells Judas in the document made public today.<br><br>The text, one of several ancient documents found in the Egyptian desert in 1970, was preserved and translated by a team of scholars. It was made public in an English translation by the National Geographic Society.<br><br>Religious and lay readers alike will debate the meaning and truth of the manuscript.<br><br>But it does show the diversity of beliefs in early Christianity, said Marvin Meyer, professor of Bible studies at Chapman University in Orange, Calif.<br><br>The text, in the Coptic language, was dated to about the year 300 and is a copy of an earlier Greek version.<br><br>A "Gospel of Judas" was first mentioned around A.D. 180 by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon, in what is now France. The bishop denounced the manuscript as heresy because it differed from mainstream Christianity. The actual text had been thought lost until this discovery.<br><br>…<br><br>"Perhaps more now can be said," he commented. The document "implies that Judas only did what Jesus wanted him to do."<br><br>Christianity in the ancient world was much more diverse than it is now, with a number of gospels circulating in addition to the four that were finally collected into the New Testament, noted Bart Ehrman, chairman of religious studies at the University of North Carolina.<br><br>Eventually, one point of view prevailed and the others were declared heresy, he said, including the Gnostics who believed that salvation depended on secret knowledge that Jesus imparted, particularly to Judas.<br><br>…<br>"Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom," Jesus says to Judas, singling him out for special status. "Look, you have been told everything. Lift up your eyes and look at the cloud and the light within it and the stars surrounding it. The star that leads the way is your star."<br><br>The text ends with Judas turning Jesus over to the high priests and does not include any mention of the crucifixion or resurrection.<br><br>…<br><br><br>So you want to know the really-real story of Jesus?<br><br>Well, settle down and bring me a scotch and I will reveal all.<br><br>Now is this little story I'm about to tell true?<br><br>How the hell should I know? It is to my mind, however, no less riveting an explanation of the Jesus Story than the cartoons they pass off as genuine coin in Sunday School, or either the Abattoir Christianity or "JC, CEO" faiths that are pimped by various hucksters on the Right.<br><br>In other words: We Purport, You Decide.<br><br>So once upon a time…<br><br>The Kingdom of Judea was in upheaval as is had been for years. The Romans had conquered the region and had tried to bend in into becoming another distant province of their empire.<br><br>Their success was…mixed.<br><br>The Occupiers were militarily superior to the locals in every way, and there were a lot of advantages to being a client-state. And, yes, they had effectively co-opted many of the local elected officials, but everyone knew what the score was. <br><br>The Occupiers said “jump” and their proxy government said “how high.”<br><br>And the locals – who had been conquered and pillaged many times before and who would have found our modern notion of separating Church and State incomprehensible – existed in various of states of high-pissoffery. <br><br>The Occupiers were almost uniformly seen an affront to their God and despoilers of their holy places. <br><br>Some people just wanted to be left alone. Some thought cooperation was the lesser of many evils; the only way to stave off something much worse. Many were seething with rage. And a few of them took up arms against the Occupiers and those they saw as collaborators.<br><br>And those who drew blood in their cause saw it as a sacred thing.<br><br>It was a cauldron of faith, politics, family, tribe, righteous fury, military power and insurgency, always gurgling away at a low boil and kept in check by compromise when possible, and massive shows of force when not. <br><br>And I don’t think it is exaggerating the situation by a whole lot by describing it as an on-again-off-again form of urban warfare taking place in the context of a low-grade civil war.<br><br>Say, does ANY of this sound familiar?<br><br>Does anyone fail to notice that if it were air strikes vs. carbombs instead of legions vs. daggers, this is exactly what the front page of the New York Times looks like every single day?<br><br>The reason I mention it is I am always surprised when devout Christians are oblivious to the context in which their central stories take place. <br><br>In a city in the grip of factional fighting that shuddered and bled for years before JC came along.<br><br>A city that was all but wiped off the map in the denouement of that Long War, 40 years after Jesus was supposed to have been killed.<br><br>So instead of the Disney Christ, existing outside of time and space in a Neverland of shepherds and parables, wise men and stock-character Romans, just imagine it as it really was. <br><br>In a city in the middle of a guerilla war, where leaders desperately rose up again and again only to be killed, again and again.<br><br>And then a young warrior-priest hit on a new strategy.<br><br>He is well-educated in both tactics and law. He is of royal blood, and like true royalty feels quite at home talking to people of every station in life. The Essenes know him, as do the Zealots. Even to the worshipers of Mithras he would not be a stranger.<br><br>He has developed what we would call a broad constituency, and he also has a duty. The same duty every Jewish lead bears in his turn: to drive the Romans out. <br><br>As a rabbi and a royal, he has also taken a wife. Seriously, who in those times would have trusted a wifeless, childless leader? They were married at Cana (you may have read about it), and had a son, then entering his teens.<br><br>The son is a royal and a rebel like his old man, but has fallen in with the armed, hard-core, “Revolution Now” crowd. His dad worries about him, but he’s a strong-willed and righteous kid who’s been listening to dad's anti-Roman kitchen-table-talk his whole life, so what can the old man really say?<br><br>The uprising Jesus had planned was, of course, both spiritual and political -- two concepts which would not be teased apart and thought of separately for millennia. To craft and trigger his rebellion he made an underdog's careful use of the agitpropic power of “prophecy fulfillment” to fill the streets with followers, perhaps using the radical idea that in the true fulfillment of Jewish Law the revolutionaries could literally love their enemies into making concessions to capture the imagination of the war-weary residents of Jerusalem.<br><br>Maybe the streets were too narrow?<br><br>Maybe the crowds were too large?<br><br>Whatever happened, at some point the wheels came off, and the massed power of the Roman military moved in. It was soon obvious that the uprising had failed, and seeing that the tide was turning and they were all now (or would soon be) wanted for capital crimes, Jesus and his team went into hiding.<br><br>Which leads to what I think of as one of the central, unanswered question of New Testament.<br><br>Why didn’t they just put their boogie shoes on and scram? <br><br>Live to fight another day?<br><br>C’mon, you’ve got a city full of followers presumably willing to hide you. Friends in high and low places. Pals among the Essennes down the coast. I mean, who the fuck plans a rebellion without an escape route?<br><br>Without a Plan B?<br><br>It's 106 miles to Chicago! You've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. <br><br>So hit it!<br><br>But they stayed.<br><br>Why?<br><br>Don’t think supernatural; don’t think stilted or scripted or Cecil B. DeMille.<br><br>Just think like a smart, compassionate leader of men during a time of war and ask yourself, "What would make me blow off my chance at retreat and regrouping?" <br><br>How about if the Romans had your kid? <br><br>Your child, who is not just your flesh and blood, but the heir to a royal line. <br><br>A teenaged boy who had been name after his father, and since people didn’t have last names in those days, he would have been called something like “Jesus, Son of the Master” or “Jesus, Son of the father”.<br><br>But where in the New Testament do you find a second man named Jesus?<br><br>Hey baby, you’re soaking in it!<br><br>This site sums it up as well as any... <br><br><br>Now the gospels tell us the name (title) of the robber Pilate offered to the crowd for release in Jesus stead was "Barabbas" or Bar'Abba Mk 15:6-15, Mt 27:15-26, Lk 23:17-25, Jn 18:39-40. <br><br>(This is not a personal name. It's a title - in Aramaic it means "the Son of the Father"). Some ancient manuscripts of Matthew, confirmed by the writings of the church father, Origen (250ce), reveal the full name of the criminal as " Jesus Bar'Abbas " , just like the "Jesus Bar'Abbas" ( Son of the Father "God" ) that Christians worship .<br><br>The church father Origen was appalled by the use of "Jesus Barabbas" in the manuscripts he was familiar with because he held the conviction that no "sinner" should bare the name and title of "Jesus the Christ " . <br>…<br>"…scribes deleted the name Jesus from Jesus Barabbas out of reverence for Jesus Christ ." D. A. Carson, Matthew, in vol. 8 of The Expositor's Bible Commentary, edited by Frank E. Gaebelein, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1984), p574.<br><br><br><br>This site covers the basics pretty well too...<br><br><br><br>In the Christian story of the passion of Jesus , Barabbas, actually Jesus bar-Abbas, (Aramaic Bar-abbâ, "son of the father"), was the insurrectionary murderer whom Pontius Pilate freed at the Passover…<br><br>"Jesus Barabbas"<br><br>According to the United Bible Societies' text, Matthew 27:17 reads: "...whom will ye that I release unto you? Jesus Barabbas [Greek: Iesous ton Barabbas] or Jesus which is called Christ [Greek: Iesous ton legomenon Christon]?"<br><br>Some early Greek manuscripts of Matthew present Barabbas' name twice as Jesus bar Abbas: manuscripts in the Caesarean group of texts, the Sinaitic Palimpsest, the Palestinian Syriac lectionaries and some of the manuscripts used by Origen in the 3rd century, all support the fact that Barabbas' name was originally Jesus Barabbas, though not all modern New Testament translations reflect this. Origen deliberately rejected the reading in the manuscript he was working with, and left out "Iesous" deliberately, for reverential considerations, certainly a strongly motivated omission. Early editors did not want the name Jesus associated with anyone who was a sinner. <br><br><br>So word gets back to you via intermediaries that the Romans have your son and have charged him with being a member of the sicarii (An armed, militant sect dedicated to overthrowing the Romans by force.)<br><br>He had committed a capital crime (Mark 15:7 says that he had committed a murder during an insurrection) and was soon to die…but the Romans would be willing to trade.<br><br>The Father for the Son, and the clock is ticking.<br><br>You see how with a little context we’ve moved this along from a child’s badly staged Sunday School pageant to an episode of “24”?<br><br>"My name is Jesus of Nazareth...and this is the longest day of my life!”<br><br>Your rebellion is fucked, your movement is in ashes and as you and your posse pack fast and get ready to blow town, word reaches you that your son and heir is rotting in a Roman prison awaiting execution.<br><br>What do you do?<br><br>Well if you read the story of the Last Supper without changing a single phrase -- only shifting the context and the emphasis -- according to scripture, you call an Emergency War Council.<br><br>You make some brutally hard decisions, share a Passover meal and a prayer with your dearest friends and loyal lieutenants -- men who have sworn to live and die by your word -- and then pick out two of them to do the hardest things they will ever be asked to do.<br><br>As their leader, you start issuing orders.<br><br>Mercy first, so with staunch-but-not-very-bright Peter, you keep it simple. You tell him to escape. To lie his ass off, deny he ever knew you, and get out of town. <br><br>Pete doesn’t want to -- in tears he says, “If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise” -- so you have to insist.<br><br>Then onto the shoulders of your ferociously loyal security chief, Judas Iscariot -- Judas of the Sicarii? -- you place the heaviest burden of all; the life of your child. Judas will handle the exchange, including personally turning you over to the authorities, and since the Roman offer came strings attached including an insistence on secrecy, he can never, ever breathe a word about the real story to anyone or the deal is off.<br><br>You know it'll destroy him and his good name for all time -- “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." -- but you also know it has to be done, and only the strongest of your men can handle that burden.<br><br>"Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me."<br><br>For god’s sake, these aren’t prophecies. They’re final commands, given to a platoon whose heart had already been shattered once that day.<br><br>And then you lead your brothers in a prayer, and walk out into the night and into history.<br><br>To save your son.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Gospel of Judas

Postby rothbardian » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:05 pm

I'm not sure I follow that last post. It's opening a lot of subject matter. Suffice to say-- there was an empty tomb there in Jerusalem, a fews days after Jesus' death and an emergence of thousands of 'believers' in the immediate days and weeks following that, which is utterly inexplicable...had that tomb not been empty. <br><br>And I have never encountered an adequate explanation for this, other than the explanations of these ancient manuscripts which comprise the Scriptures. Anyway...<br><br><br>Isachar--<br><br>All due respect, I'm not sure how eager I am to get a lot of admonishing 'research advice' on this topic, from someone who didn't know the Old Testament books were represented among the Dead Sea scrolls...nor knew what the Pentateuch was. That's a little dubious. <br><br>I'm certainly open to additional info sources, and may have a look at some of them, time permitting. (Although, I have read through "The Passover Plot" and saw it as wildly contradictory drivel, pulled out of thin air...to be honest.)<br><br>You're a little confused in your impression that I am just now becoming aware of 'unique' documents among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Being a seminary grad, I have a fair degree of familiarity with the topic, and you've misunderstood something there.<br>---<br><br>This conversation started out with my very appropriate objection (apparently, even according to YOUR standards) to a few RI posters who, in this thread, immediately and gleefully began relying upon the 'factuality' of this newfound Judas gospel (the ink wasn't even dry on the PTB's NY Times article) to 'prove' the error of the Biblical gospels. <br><br>If you have a sincere concern about careful and accurate approach to historicity issues...it is unclear to me why you didn't side with me in admonishing these folks. Instead, I notice that you joined in the conversation with no objection to their wild presumptions. I don't object to your concerns about MY position, but your double standard is confusing.<br><br>And I am always fascinated by this curious notion you reaffirm here, and which prevails among secularists/non-Christians et al...that only Bible-believers are susceptible to prejudicial and dogmatic thinking...when, in fact, that was precisely what was on display (ironically) from your secularist cohorts on this very thread. We are ALL mere mortals..even (shockingly) non-Christians and non-'Bible believers'.<br><br>You say that I "seem to be compelled" to view the matter through a Christian matrix-- actually I am compelled to view things through simple logic and common sense...and common sense would indicate that the Judas document compares very dubiously to the Biblical gospels. <br><br>There is no getting past the fact that thousands and thousands of copies were made of the four gospels that were being accepted as credible in the Christian community...and none were being made of this Judas document.<br><br>As I said, this shows that it was rejected as 'phony baloney' by the contemporary community...or another possibility-- that it never existed contemporary to the other gospels.<br><br>I WOULD assert with a high degree of certainty as to what DID NOT happen-- which is that this Gospel of Judas emerged during the same time frame as the Biblical gospels...secondly, that it was accepted as credible whereupon thousands of copies were made, but that then, thirdly, the official state church was able to stamp out all these copies spread over the known world. That is absurd. <br><br>In fact, you make the same mistake as the other poster on this thread when you confer this near-omnipotence on the Catholic church (state church) in trying to defend the lack of copies. Again, all I can do here is quote my previous statement (which I view as simple logic):<br><br>"There were hundreds of thousands of Christ-followers who had nothing to do with the official state church, and paid absolutely no heed to it." <br><br>If there had been something credible about the Judas document, these folks would have done the same thing they always did for hundreds of years even BEFORE the state-sanctioned church---they would have risked life and limb, defying all authority, to get their hands on the information."<br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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