'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Interesting Speculation

Postby isachar » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:56 pm

Anti - masterful. The NT's treatment of Barabbas has always been enigmatic. There was never any Jewish tradition that existed to release a prisoner on Passover(?) or whatever holiday they were celebrating. And, your translation of his name is correct as are your sources for his given name.<br><br>Roth - I made issue with you about your insistence that a single document is somehow evidence of its inauthenticity. I gave you a couple of citations of single documents that have been found and are universally accepted as being authentic. Your defense seems to be that they were found in proximity with other documents of which there were many copies.<br><br>Your defense is invalid as it has no relevance whatever to the point that a number of the DSS were the only single documents of their type ever found.<br><br>You may believe what you wish. But, as Anti's post indicates, the actual story is far more interesting than the sanitized fairy tale the franchised version the Christic/Catholic tradition perpetuates.<br><br>Personally, I think that the pre-disposition and brain-washing of the masses with the sanitzied, franchised, fairy tale version is the mother lie that predisposes much of western society to fascism. Because if you can be made to buy, believe in and even kill for the Christic/Catholic dogma, you'll pretty much buy any load of crap any tin-pot dictator, MSM, politician, or cult leader has to offer.<br><br>I'll rely on those whose judgment on these matters has been well-proven, my own reading of it the translation, and the record of its finding to form my opinion, and not the ignorant presupposition that it being a single individual document somehow tends to invalidate it. Don't need no blinded by the holy spirit, blood drinking, flesh eating divinity school graduate to make that judgment for me, thanks.<br><br>BTW, that's why I suggested Skolnick last, you need to do the preparatory reading first. Skolnick's version is a projection of this hidden history. It's no better and no worse than the highly sanitized version of the NT millions of bible thumpers believe in. Just because Constantine said that's the way it was doesn't make it so.<br><br>Oh, and by the way, some of the better research on the suppressed/hidden story of JC are christian theologians/historians. There are a few among the divinity school crowd who have managed to free themselves from the dogmatic trap to find their way. For many of them, their explorations into the hidden history have not caused them to abandon their faith, but to reach a far greater level of understanding. You don't appear to have been exposed to any such individuals in your schooling, or you have rejected them as heretical, or they've all been purged.<br><br>You will have to pursue your own argument with others. That is not my obligation. My original point, which you have already acknowledged to be valid, was that the existence of a single document is not prima facie evidence of its inauthenticity. Nothing more or less. However, it is apparent you could use a little more depth to your historical vision of the times. As Anti's post indicates, the actual story is far more interesting than the Sunday school version they tell the little kiddies. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=isachar>isachar</A> at: 4/9/06 8:39 pm<br></i>
isachar
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Interesting Speculation

Postby Dreams End » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:41 pm

Skolnick didn't write the "Passover Plot" It was a guy named Shonfield:<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1852308362/102-8654159-1620912?v=glance&n=283155">Passover Plot at Amazon</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Interesting guy. He was the one who theorized that "Baphomet" that the Knight's Templar confessed to worshipping (under torture, mind you) was a cipher in a known Essene code that ends up meaning "Sophia", the female personification of Wisdom. Not accepted as fact, necessarily, but the fact that you CAN use that code to go from "Baphomet" to the hebrew equivalent of "Sophia" is, I think. <br><br>The big picture is not if this thing is real..it surely is...many such documents are found with, as I've shown, even more radical differences. The Gospel of Thomas, as I've noted, may even predate some of the Gospels and uses a lot of the sayings of Jesus from the accepted version (perhaps using the hypothesized book of Q, or collection of sayings of Jesus from which all the Gospel writers may have selected the quotes they used?)<br><br>Anyway, these versions reflect a telling of the story that is "spun" to reflect gnostic sensibilities. Doesn't mean they are wrong, but it also doesn't mean the Gospels are incontravertible historical fact... <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End
 

Re: Interesting Speculation

Postby isachar » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:48 pm

DE, thanks for the proper attribution of the Passover Plot. Too many years ago for me to properly remember the author's name.<br><br>Your reference to the "Q" document is also important. Many have theorized it to be the original source document for 2-3 of the Gospels as they came to be included in the NT. <p></p><i></i>
isachar
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

First discovery of Templar remains

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:54 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Quite the synergy going on for the release of The DaVinci Code film.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>First Knights Templar are discovered</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>April 10, 2006<br><br>LONDON: The first bodies of the Knights Templar, the mysterious religious order at the heart of The Da Vinci Code, have been found by archaeologists near the River Jordan in northern Israel.<br><br>British historian Tom Asbridge yesterday hailed the find as the first provable example of actual Knights Templar.<br><br>The remains were found beneath the ruined walls of Jacob's Ford, an overthrown<br><br>castle dating back to the Crusades, which had been lost for centuries.<br><br>They can be dated to the exact day -- August 29, 1179 -- that they were killed by Saladin, the feared Muslim leader who captured the fortress.<br><br>"Never before has it been possible to trace their remains to such an exact time in history,' Mr Asbridge said. "This discovery is the equivalent of the Holy Grail to archaeologists and historians. It is unparalleled."<br><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,18761160-5001027,00.html">dailytelegraph.news.com.au</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rigorousintuition>Rigorous Intuition</A> at: 4/9/06 8:54 pm<br></i>
Rigorous Intuition
 
Posts: 1744
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:36 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Judas

Postby rothbardian » Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:43 pm

Whaaat? Yet another 'spectacular' historical 'discovery'? That IS beautiful timing for the DaVinci Code marketing department. I am definitely a graduate of the Hugh Manatee School of Conspiratorial PTB Media Shenanigans (although I theorize in the opposite direction from Hugh).<br><br>I want to respond once more to Isachar--<br><br>Isachar--<br><br>You keep running roughshod over this issue about the 'single document'. Let me restate for a THIRD time (will it go to six, seven or eight?) that I have no automatic and absolute prohibition against 'single documents'.<br><br>What I HAVE said is that this is indeed problematic for a document that was obviously meant for publication and dissemination. That is something that needs to be explained. Why is there only one copy? So far, no adequate explanation is forthcoming. It looks very bad...very suspicious. (I would have the same question for ANY 'gospel' that can only show one copy...or a tiny handful of copies.)<br><br>The gratuitous insults are unfortunate. I'm not sure why you descend to that level. I have never eaten human flesh or blood, and I didn't "drop out"....I graduated. <br><br>Let me just say something in defense of Christianity-- according to the quotes of Jesus in the N.T. we are to "bless" those that "curse" us; we are to forgive others "seventy times seven"; we are to "turn the other cheek". The entire thrust of the Christian message is to extend grace and charity to the world around us. To suggest that this is the essence of "fascism" or that it leads to fascism...is total absurdity.<br><br>I certainly DO agree with you about the 'state church'...and possibly take a FAR dimmer view than you even do-- I perceive the Catholic church (with apologies to any Catholic folk reading this) to be a gigantic 'secret society' essentially, where there are many outer layers of innocent, well-meaning parishioners and clergy (although I disagree with a lot of their theology)...but there seems to be evidence of an inner core of extremely horrific evildoers.<br><br>I'm not sure on all the details, but it seems there are good guys and bad guys at the top levels of Catholicism. Pope Paul VI daringly stated at one point--"satanic smoke has entered the sanctuary".<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.aztlan.net/malachimartin.htm">www.aztlan.net/malachimartin.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Svali, a survivor of the occult, described being taken to the Vatican itself for her induction into Luciferianism. <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.arcticbeacon.com/17-Jan-2006.html">www.arcticbeacon.com/17-Jan-2006.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
rothbardian
 
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:08 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Judas

Postby isachar » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:29 am

Wow, just got done watching the NG presentation on the Gospel of Judas - great timing. Pagels is featured prominently. She's great. I've been a long-time admirer of her work. She is a real path-breaker in the field.<br><br>I'll want to see how some of the regular BAR contributors view it (can't wait until the next issue). However, the radio-carbon dating is authoritative as to the date of the papyrus.<br><br>Given this, those who would contest its authenticity are reduced to only a couple of arguments: 1) the papyrus may be authentic, but the words are forged (the NG show didn't tell if they dated the ink), and 2) the entire document is authentic, but its content is invalid/wrong, etc, or 3) insert your argument here. <br><br>If the radio-carbon dating is reliable, then one can only seek to impeach the document by its content rather than its authenticity. And then, you run up against the problem of finding someone who is fluent in ancient Coptic who can write an original story on a 1700 - 1800 year old piece of papyrus parchment.<br><br>As to your continuing wonderment as to how a single copy of a proto-biblical document might exist, I need only point you once again to the unique DSS's. They exist. They are unique. They are authentic. Your point that they were found proximate to other documents of which many copies/variants exist is irrelevant in terms of their authenticity.<br><br>Many heretical documents (of Christic and non-Christic origin) have been destroyed over the years by the Christic/Catholic Church and its keepers of the dogma. Yet others will have been lost to the sands of time, turned to dust. Some documents are rumored to be held deep in the Vatican vaults - never to see the light of day.<br><br>Time to move on, or go back to Sunday school. <p></p><i></i>
isachar
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Interesting Speculation

Postby StarmanSkye » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:25 am

Isachar said:<br>"You may believe what you wish. But, as Anti's post indicates, the actual story is far more interesting than the sanitized fairy tale the franchised version the Christic/Catholic tradition perpetuates.<br><br>Personally, I think that the pre-disposition and brain-washing of the masses with the sanitzied, franchised, fairy tale version is the mother lie that predisposes much of western society to fascism. Because if you can be made to buy, believe in and even kill for the Christic/Catholic dogma, you'll pretty much buy any load of crap any tin-pot dictator, MSM, politician, or cult leader has to offer."<br><br>Well-said -- I'm totally with your point; Further, I certainly didn't see that anyone here was in a particular rush to accept the Gospel of Judas as genuine, just that there were intriguing and compelling reasons to accept the possibility. In my own reading and understanding of Christ's Ministry, I interpret the message of Judas's 'betrayal' as a profound act of courage, duty and faith -- I debated this very point with my step-mom almost two years ago. I never dreamed that there might actually be an ancient text providing 'proof' of this very idea. To think of Judas' act as nothing but a self-absorbed selfish and vulgar betrayal is just so contrary to and inconsistent with Christ's message -- suggesting as it does the triviality of Christ's love that couldn't conquer one apostle's temptation of petty greed, ending in his tragedy as the 'price' of what should be the triumphal victory over death, and thereby diminishing it. One can readily see however that in Judas' 'betrayal, the Catholic Church could exploit the convoluted morality-play message of deviously tragic cross-purposes, and the self-deprecating futility and dishonor of 'failing' God.<br><br>The 'single copy suggests it is fraud' argument Rothbardian made doesn't stand; There are certainly other single copies of texts that have been found that have been authenticated. And of course, the history of the Church Heirarchy disposing of unapproved texts as 'heretical' is hardly controversial. It's probably remarkable that ANY unapproved texts survived. And besides that, who knows if or HOW many more papyrus fragments are still-hidden, or authentic copies of original Greek/Coptic texts are 'lost' or being kept hidden in the Vatican or Jesuit or other libraries, or in a private collection?<br>Several important texts were only found within the past 60-70 years -- To have found the supposed Judas texts 30 yrs ago isn't absolutely unique. But on the other hand, your skepticism Rothbardian isn't inappropriate. It's timing DOES seem a bit auspiciously suspicious, with the Da Vinci Code and now the 'evidence' for Templar Knights.<br><br>Robert Redford -- Excellant post showing what's REALLY 'New Age' here and tracing the dangerous, false doctrine of Masonry's teaching the hidden mysteries culminating with the worship of Satan as the Ruler of Earth -- one helluva good source-list.<br>As too, your annotated source-list re: history of state-sponsored terrorism<br><br>Rothbardian said:<br>"The entire thrust of the Christian message is to extend grace and charity to the world around us. To suggest that this is the essence of "fascism" or that it leads to fascism...is total absurdity."<br><br>I think the point Isachar makes isn't that the authentic Christian message is the essence of 'fascism' -- but that the Catholic Church has totally distorted that message for its own purposes. Fer Chissakes -- Just look at the history of the Catholic Church. Jeez. I would think it isn't even controversial to note that throughout most of last thousand years the Church has been an instrument of social control predisposing society to meekly accomodate the power and control of state elites and institutions through the subversion of Christ's message --by means thru the elaborate fairy-tale morality play of Church orthodoxy-- 'Organized Religion', specifically the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has totally transformed and perverted Christ's message -- <br><br>Good God, man -- is there really any question that the Inquisition and Crusades and Witch-burnings and genocide of the America's and Africa with God's 'blessings' happened, and that although they were condoned and excused as furthering God's dominion and Glory etc., they had absolutely NOTHING to do with Christ's teachings but were completely CONTRARY to them? And today, the Catholic Church has become an instrument of social control that demands unquestioning patriotic allegiance to the west's stated 'goals' of progress and conquest and economic exploitation -- it sanctions and legitimizes the west's crimes of empire much in the same manner it legitimized colonialism, slavery, genocide, feudalism, and monarchism. The so-called separation of Church and State with tax-exemption status has been used to closely limit criticism and discussion of the state's actual economic, political and social policies -- although there's a double-standard there with many 'moral majority' churches with close rightwing/Republican ties having NO constraints placed on their pro-Republican, pro-war and pro-abortion sermons. US Presidents made Public Relations hay with getting the Pope's blessings and prayers, with attending Pope John Paul's funeral in a show of piety and with W's shameless manuevering to be publicly seen getting Pope Ratz's 'approval' --<br><br>If the Church were to faithfully and honestly continue the real message of Christ's teachings today it SURE wouldn't look anything like it does -- selling the lukewarm, wishy-washy, image-conscious, self-righteous, patronizing, paternalistic, hypocritical, stiff-necked, dollar-grubbing message of going-along to get-along, and that conveniently doesn't question the fascist trends in government and society. I don't think Christ would even recognize the Catholic Church as having ANYTHING to do with what he actually taught.<br><br>The Vatican was allied with and had 'arrangements' with the Nazis and with the mafia -- The church has since become a major economic and political force in the modern world, running a real-estate and money-laundering racket and counter-espionage front, working closely with western governments and extending its influence in the furtherance of many foreign policy objectives -- as it did by giving its blessings to many US-brokered subversions and support for totalitarian regimes, such as in Latin America and Yugoslavia<br>-- and its backing/assistance for Gladio/P-2 networks in Europe; In addition it has covered-up and hidden decades of crimes by child-abusing priests; In these and other actions the church as an institution has done inestimable damage to the cause of peace and justice -- even though many of its devoted members may be sincere and sincerely devoted followers of Christ.<br><br>Starman <p></p><i></i>
StarmanSkye
 
Posts: 2670
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:32 pm
Location: State of Jefferson
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Interesting Speculation

Postby rothbardian » Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:39 am

Starman-- <br><br>You were saying that my suggestion of the possibility of fraud "doesn't stand".<br>-----<br><br>A single copy of Judas emerges all of a sudden...in a very lovely coincidence of timing, by the way...and that doesn't raise the possibility of fraud?? Come on.<br><br>When something like this comes along, fraud is the FIRST thing to be considered, by legitimate investigators. That possibility has to be ruled out or ruled in...but it's the FIRST thing on the to-do list.<br><br>Therefore, for me to receive repeated finger-wagging admonishments for my skepticism, here at a supposedly hard-edged, hardcore alternative website whose posters are supposedly wise to PTB shenanigans...is pretty confusing. <br><br>How DARE I wonder if the same evil psychopaths who wrote up the NIST reports on 9/11...are now over at National Geographic, helping to nudge things along.<br><br>How about questioning their authentication process...or see what we can find out about all the individuals involved in this recent Gospel of Judas thing...oh, wait...nothing to see here, move along. Silly me, questioning the NY Times and National Geographic.<br><br>After all, National Geographic has never been involved in the evil PTB conspiracy to cover up the mass murder of 9-11. Oh, wait...yes it was. I goofed. Here's the link: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inside911/">channel.nationalgeographi...inside911/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>In any case, even if this document is a genuine article (which it may very well be) it still has the same gargantuan problems of credibility of the OTHER apocryphal gospels that have only one copy (or a tiny handful of copies).<br><br>There are, in fact, at least a couple of these 'gospels', where only one copy from antiquity exists...and they all have the same problem explaining why hundreds of thousands of 'little people' Christ-followers defied authorities, paid utterly no heed to the Catholic church, and risked life and limb to obtain a copy, or to make thousands of copies of the four Biblical gospels-- but didn't give a plug nickel for the Gospel of Judas..or Thomas etc.<br>-----------<br><br>You make the statement: "I think the point Isachar makes isn't that the authentic Christian message is the essence of 'fascism' -- but that the Catholic Church has totally distorted that message for its own purposes."<br><br>I disagree. He did NOT bother to make that distinction. In fact here is his quote again, in black and white: "...the sanitized, franchised, fairy tale version is the mother lie that predisposes much of western society to fascism." <br><br>And that is PRECISELY the problem with a huge percentage of the sentiments expressed by many left-leaning, secularist posters here RI:<br><br>They are engaging in a lot of sloppy broadbrushing. You stated elsewhere, for example, that you see no "rush to judgement" going on here. I see a LOT of rushing...at every chance to jab or poke, trash or bash Christianity AND it's adherents. There are a lot of horrendous things being written here (but this site is still FAR more mature and civilized than say, FreeRepublic.com-- so I count my blessings).<br><br>I myself became the grand prize recipient of some grindingly bigoted insults, earlier in this thread...insulting references to me as a Christian, every bit as bad as the "N" word used for black folks-- in fact, even worse, if you consider the moral implications of what was written.<br><br>There is a general trend here to lump the 'state church', Christianity, and Christians all into one 'evil' pile. That's a mistake.<br>--------------<br><br>In that regard, I think you somehow missed some of my statements when you expressed surprise that I don't recognize the evil that has been perpetrated by the 'state church'. But I totally agree with you, and as I said earlier...I probably take a FAR dimmer view than most people do. Here was my earlier quote:<br><br>"I certainly DO agree with you about the 'state church'...and possibly take a FAR dimmer view than you even do-- I perceive the Catholic church (with apologies to any Catholic folk reading this) to be a gigantic 'secret society' essentially, where there are many outer layers of innocent, well-meaning parishioners and clergy (although I disagree with a lot of their theology)...but there seems to be evidence of an inner core of extremely horrific evildoers."<br><br>And don't even get me going about the misadventures of organized 'evangelical' religion, here in the US. I'm on record here at RI, for strongly suspecting (TV evangelist) Pat Robertson to be an absolute 100% luciferian counterfeit. I have a LIST of others like him. It's a nightmare.<br>-------------<br><br>Also, I guess I'm not sure what the controversy is in simply viewing Judas' act of betrayal as wrongdoing. If Jesus had wanted to proactively place himself in the hands of the authorities...why not simply surrender? The fact that there was no voluntary surrender and that a 'betrayal' took place, would routinely indicate wrongful behavior.<br><br>As poster CharlesWatson said so well (and has not been answered): <br><br>"That makes the Romans, [Pontius] Pilate, the Sanhedran, and all those Barabas fans into heroes, too, doesn't it? And Mary, well she should have just crushed him in the manger so as to send him on his way ASAP."<br><br><br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>
rothbardian
 
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:08 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Unmerited Kudos

Postby antiaristo » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:23 am

isachar,<br>Thank you, but it's not mine.<br>It's from Driftglass, and I thought extremely well written.<br>I've never bought into the "Judas as bad Jew" thing because it doesn't make sense. They were ALL Jews.<br><br>James Redford,<br>I too liked your list.<br>This part struck me<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Lucifer comes to give us the final gift of wholeness. If we accept it, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>then he is free and we are free</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. That is the Luciferic initiation. It is one that many people now, and in the days ahead, will be facing, for it is an initiation into the New Age."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>So when you take the blood oaths you are free.<br>Free of all responsibility.<br>Free will, God's greatest gift, is a burden, eh?<br><br>As a suggestion you might want to remove your compilation from this thread, where it is likely to be lost, and put it into Data Dump with its own heading.<br>It can then be freely added-to. (ugh! preposition)<br><br>Starman,<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>NO constraints placed on their pro-Republican, pro-war and pro-abortion sermons<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>There's a deliberate error in there, no?<br><br>rothbardian,<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I perceive the Catholic church (with apologies to any Catholic folk reading this) to be a gigantic 'secret society' essentially, where there are many outer layers of innocent, well-meaning parishioners and clergy (although I disagree with a lot of their theology)...but there seems to be evidence of an inner core of extremely horrific evildoers."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I'm afraid I'm coming to agree with you.<br>I was educated by just the sort of well-meaning clergy you describe.<br>But I'm beginning to detest the Vatican.<br> <p></p><i></i>
antiaristo
 
Posts: 2555
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:50 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

really-real story of Jesus

Postby trachys » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:57 am

HOLY SH*T! Antiaristo, where can I get more? <p></p><i></i>
trachys
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: really-real story of Jesus

Postby antiaristo » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:19 am

trachys,<br>It's a once-off, I think.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://driftglass.blogspot.com/">driftglass.blogspot.com/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>He writes on all sorts of things, and does so extremely well. <p></p><i></i>
antiaristo
 
Posts: 2555
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:50 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: really-real story of Jesus

Postby Dreams End » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:51 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Quite the synergy going on for the release of The DaVinci Code film.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I have to admit, this IS getting a little weird. In my paper two days ago we have the Judas stuff and the Dan Brown court case. Now this. <br><br>It's not the content of the Judas document that makes me wonder...this sort of stuff has surfaced in other such gospels...it is the timing. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
Dreams End
 

Re: Interesting Speculation

Postby isachar » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:11 am

Starman, well said. Those such as Roth, with their Sunday School blinders will only see once they decide to free their own minds. Nothing your or I say will do that for them/him.<br><br>They are prisoners of their own minds and beliefs. To have reached the point you have - to have plumbed the depths for greater meaning and the hidden/suppressed history - and to have re-affirmed your faith with a deeper knowledge makes you far stronger than most all of the phony popes, bishops, priests, fundies, divinity and Sunday School crowd.<br><br>Also, please note that I said the officially sanctioned franchised version is what "pre-disposes" the tendency in western civilization towards fascism. I did not say it was the "essence" of fascism.<br><br>These subtleties seem to be lost on Roth. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=isachar>isachar</A> at: 4/10/06 9:27 am<br></i>
isachar
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: really-real story of Jesus

Postby isachar » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:16 am

Trachys, there's lots more. Start with a book by Brandon titled "Jesus and the Zealots". I've got a reading list the length of my arm on this (did the reading about 20-30 years ago), but my wife put all my books in a box in the basement and I'd have to dig them out to get you all the titles. I'll post more on this thread as I recall them. <p></p><i></i>
isachar
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: really-real story of Jesus

Postby isachar » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:50 pm

Found a few per below synopsized from another site. As you can see these issues, some recently popularized by the Da Vinci Code are not new. They've been swirling about for the last 100 or so years now.<br><br>1961, Paul Winter, On the Trial of Jesus, Berlin, 1961. <br>He analyses the gospel materials in detail and proves that the Jewish authorities did not condemn Jesus to death, though they were quite competent to do so if they had found him guilty of blasphemy. They handed him to Pontius Pilate simply because they were afraid that his activities might lead to an insurrection and bring about a heavy-handed Roman intervention.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1963, J. Carmichael, The Death of Jesus, London, 1963.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br>He showed that Jesus was a guerrilla leader who first collaborated and then broke with another Jewish rebel, John the Baptist. John recognized his superiority when he seized the temple in Jerusalem as a preliminary to seizing the city and leading an anti-Roman uprising. But the Roman soldiers stormed the temple and Jesus had to go into hiding from where he was betrayed by Judas. He was then crucified by the Romans along with other leaders of the rebellion. He cites Sossianus Hierocles, the prefect of Egypt who wrote in the reign of Diocletian (245-315 AD) and who had stated that “Jesus was the leader of a band of highway robbers numbering more than 900 men”, and also a lost version of Josephus which stated that “Jesus had more than 2,000 armed followers with him on the Mount of Olives”.23<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1963, Hugh Schonfield, The Passover Plot, London, 1963.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> This international best-seller of which more than three million copies have been sold shows that Jesus arranged his own mock crucifixion in order to pass as the Messiah according to the prophecy in the Old Testament. The crucifixion was arranged by Joseph of Arimathea who gave him a drug in a sponge in order to induce the appearance of death. The plan was to take him inside the well-prepared tomb, and revive him. But the plan misfired because of the lance-thrust by the Roman soldier in Jesus’ side. Jesus died and was buried secretly elsewhere. The man seen by Mary Magdalene standing by her side was not Jesus but someone else who had come to help in reviving Jesus. It was a case of mistaken identity. There was no resurrection.<br><br>1965, Samuel Sandmel, We Jews and Jesus, London, 1965. <br>This Professor of Biblical Studies in the Jewish Institute of Religion in London, had protested indignantly against Paul’s view, parroted by Christian tradition, that the Jewish Law at the time of Jesus was sterile, and had become a burden so that Jews were ready to be liberated from it. He took great pride in the ancient Jewish Law, and dismissed Jesus as someone whom the Jews did not care to remember.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1967, S.G.F Brandon, Jesus and the Zealots, Manchester, 1967. <br>1968, S.G.F Brandon, The Trial of Jesus, Manchester, 1968</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br>This Professor in the University of Manchester, England, argued that Jesus was an ardent Jewish nationalist who led a rebellion against the Romans. The inscription — King of Jews — affixed to the cross was genuine because it occurs in all the gospels. He had many Zealots among his disciples, including Judas Iscariot. He failed, and was crucified by the Romans. This was the whole story. Jesus, the risen Christ and Saviour, was an invention of Paul for the consumption of Gentiles.<br><br>1969, S.S. Levin, Jesus alias Christ, New York, 1969. <br>He argued that “the miracles, ethical teachings, and warnings that the world will shortly come to a catastrophic end are wrongly ascribed to Jesus in the gospels, and in fact represent actions and sayings of John the Baptist”.24 Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem was a political demonstration, and his effort to clean the temple was an effort to seize it after surveying its defences. But the Romans foiled his insurrection, and crucified him. That was his end.<br><br>1970, Carlo Fuento, Terra Nostra, New York, 1970. <br>The Mexican novelist showed that Jesus survived the “fraudulent crucifixion” which involved a substitute, and was no saviour.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1970, W.E. Phipps, Was Jesus Married?, New York, 1970.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br>The author, a Professor of Theology, proved that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus, particularly with reference to the recently discovered Gospel of Philip which preserves a tradition that she was his spouse.<br><br>1970, Carlyle Slaughter, Magdalene, London 1970. <br>It is a novel which presents Mary Magdalene as a lover of Jesus.<br><br>1971, Haim Cohn, The Trial and Death of Jesus, New York, 1971. <br>Cohn was an ex-attorney-general of Israel and a member of its Supreme Court when he wrote this book. He dismissed the Jewish trial and condemnation of Jesus as a ridiculous fiction. The Jewish authorities, in fact, had tried to save him by advising him not to proclaim himself as the Messiah. It was Jesus who invited death by such a proclamation before Pilate. So crucifixion is the central theme in the story of Jesus. He was killed by the Romans. And he was not buried because victims of crucifixion were not allowed that rite.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1973 Haim Maccoby, Revolution in Judea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance, London, 1973.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br>He showed that the first-century generation of Jews which Christian tradition has blackened as “wicked” was, in fact, “the greatest generation in Jewish religious history”, and that “to dissociate themselves from this generation would be for the Jews to dissociate themselves from Judaism”.25 For him Jesus was a Jewish revolutionary who “staged an uprising against the Roman” after the precedent set by Judas of Galilee in 6 AD. Kingdom of God meant an independent Jewish state. Pilate was cruel by nature, and crucified Jesus. The gospels were written by “death-worshipping mystagogues” who “exalted the Roman cross into a religious symbol” and “saw more meaning in Jesus’ death than in his life”.26 He names Paul as the chief culprit in this conspiracy.<br><br>1973 W.E. Phipps, The Sexuality of Jesus, New York, 1973. <br>He says that according to the Mishnaic law an unmarried Jew could not be a teacher. So Jesus was married, and Mary Magdelene was his wife. Analysing John 20.17, he concludes that here Jesus asks Mary to cease from sexual intercourse in which they used to be engaged earlier.<br><br>1973, J.A.T. Robinson, The Human Face of God, London, 1973. <br>This Dean of Trinity College, Cambridge, says that Jesus’ birth through normal sex is not ruled out by the gospels. It is clear that Joseph was not the father of Jesus but it does not mean that there was no “prior intercourse between Mary and some unknown male which Joseph subsequently condones”.27<br><br>1973, Morton Smith, Clement of Alexandria and the Secret Gospel of Mark, Harvard (USA), 1973.<br><br>“In 1958...Professor Morton Smith of Columbia University discovered, in a monastery near Jerusalem, a letter which contained a missing fragment of the Gospel of Mark. The missing fragment had not been lost. On the contrary, it had apparently been deliberately suppressed — at the instigation, if not the express behest, of Bishop Clement of Alexandria, one of the most venerated of the early Church fathers.”28 The fragment showed Jesus and Lazarus spending several days and nights together in a state of utter nakedness. The Bishop had received a complaint that this episode in the gospel was enabling some heretic sects to indulge in immoral practices. Professor Smith published the fragment with the historical background, and opined that the “whole episode refers to a typical mystery initiation”.29<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1973, G. Vermes, Jesus the Jew, London, 1973</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> This Reader in Jewish Studies in the University of Oxford maintained that Jesus was very much a Jew in all his doings and sayings, and a great teacher. He was not a guerrilla leader. He could not have been tried by the Jews for blasphemy which he had never committed. The gospel accounts of a Jewish trial of Jesus must have been invented by Hellenized Jews like Paul. Jesus was persecuted and executed by the Romans.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1975, Donovan Joyce, The Jesus Scroll, London, 1975.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br>The author, an Australian journalist, claims to have seen a scroll stolen from the Masada excavations. “It was signed Yeshua ben Ya’akob ben Gennesareth who described himself as eighty years old and added that he was the last of the rightful kings of Israel. The name when translated into English became Jesus of Gennesareth, son of Jacob. Joyce identifies the author as Jesus of Nazareth.” It means that Jesus survived the crucifixion, and fought in the Roman siege of Masada during the Jewish revolt of 66-74 AD.31<br><br>NOTE: The above is most interesting - though probably among the most conjectural<br><br>One would also want to add Freud's amazing book "Moses and Monotheism" to the list to gain an historical appreciation of the origins of monotheism and Pagel's books on When God was a Woman and the Gnostic Gospels.<br><br>I would highly recommend Brandon and Vermes as a good starting point. Then, if you're still interested, get Vermes books on the DSS and other and read the translations yourself so you can get an idea of the vast diversity of thought at the time and that preceeded it. Read Pauline sources for historical perspective, but realize they largely consist of disinformation and propaganda.<br><br>It would also be helpful to have a background in the Maccabean revolt of about 200 years earlier and the Bar Kochba revolt (culminating at Masada and the destruction of Jerusalem) to understand Jewish religio/revolutionary and insurrectionist movements against Roman and Greco-Assyrian post-Alexander occupiers. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=isachar>isachar</A> at: 4/10/06 11:23 am<br></i>
isachar
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to Religion and the Occult

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests