Religion and conspiracy theories

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Religion and conspiracy theories

Postby Qutb » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:58 am

Recommended <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.jod911.com/evidence2.pdf" target="top">reading</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Religion and conspiracy theories

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:19 pm

Who is James Bennet? Is he the same as this one, who paints with a VERY broad brush when he convicts 9/11 doubters? He sure has a boner for people who don't accept the word of Jesus Bush. This person picks out a couple of the very weakest points of the conspiracy argument, then hangs his entire dismissal on those couple of weak points, without addressing one single FACT that would lead any rational person to ask what 9/11 was really all about.<br> <br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>...Minnesota Sen. Paul Wellstone was assassinated by the Bush administration...</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>I've got news for Mr. Bennet. There isn't one single Democrat I know in Minnesota, people who are NOT conspiracy-minded, who does not believe that Wellstone was assassinated. Not one. They don't go around pronouncing on their belief, but they'll tell you in private.<br><br>Who IS this person, anyway?<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/284271_anticonspire08.html">seattlepi.nwsource.com/op...ire08.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Conspiracy theories sully memories of 9/11 victims<br><br>JAMES BENNETT<br>GUEST COLUMNIST<br><br>With the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks fast approaching, the media coverage of 9/11 conspiracy theories is intensifying. While once this was solely the subject of Web sites and Internet forums, the topic has recently been covered in diverse media outlets such as The New York Times, Fox News and the Seattle P-I. <br><br>Although the coverage may address some of the views held by the conspiracy theorists, and occasionally even delve into the forensic evidence, one thing they have rarely discussed is, "Who are these people, and how do they come up with conclusions that are completely opposite of those of most people?"<br><br>These are questions I have been addressing on my blog for several months now, and after reviewing dozens of hours of video and audio clips, and reading countless Web sites, forums and books, I have had some interesting discoveries. <br><br>Most striking of all is the connection that those theories have with others. While the people proposing them may vary greatly in age, politics and education, they almost invariably are conspiracy theorists by nature. In addition to believing the World Trade Centers were demolished by the "New World Order," they also push theories that man did not walk on the moon, Minnesota Sen. Paul Wellstone was assassinated by the Bush administration, the Srebrenica massacre and even the Holocaust never happened. <br><br>In fact, the overlap with anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial is quite unsettling. A frequent source for their claims is the American Free Press, a fringe newspaper founded by Willis Carto, a man called "one of the most influential American anti-Semitic propagandists" by the Anti-Defamation League, and considered a founder of the Holocaust denial movement. Even such notable figures as Professor Jim Fetzer, co-founder of the group "Scholars for 9/11 Truth," do not shy from citing it, as if it were as credible as The New York Times. <br><br>As to how they believe what they do, one of the first things you notice while following them is a fervent, almost religious level of belief. Through this zeal, and through a selective use of evidence, they are convinced as to the truth of their claims, no matter the evidence to the contrary. One good example of this is the repeated claim that the 9/11 hijackers appear on none of the flight manifests. That myth was started by looking at a list of victims of the attacks posted on CNN's Web site and noting the terrorists' absence. Terrorists who commit suicide attacks, however, are by definition not "victims" of their attack, so there is no reason to believe they would be listed. That fact has been pointed out to them by numerous people, on countless occasions, but yet they persist in their belief. It continues even though the 9/11 Commission report, the news media and, most recently, the evidence presented at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui have all cited the hijackers on the flight manifests, even listing their seat numbers. <br><br>As the anniversary of these tragic events approaches, many will remember the victims, and many a tear will be shed for them. But a significant group of people wants to hijack their memories and falsify their history for their own motivations. It is the responsibility of this nation, its people and its media to insist that the truth be told, and their memories not be sullied.<br><br>James Bennett of Bellevue, an MBA student at the University of Washington, is a co-writer for screwloosechange.blogspot.com a blog that covers 9/11 conspiracy theories.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/17/06 10:47 am<br></i>
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Re: Religion and conspiracy theories

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:50 pm

I sure would love to see him in a debate on tv with the Jersey Girls. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Religion and conspiracy theories

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:14 pm

It would be interesting to know what Wellstone thought about 9/11. Remember, it wasn't all that long after September, 2001 that Wellstone died. I'll have to check this, but I'd be willing to bet that he was not a proponent of the Patriot Act (sic). He's one of my heroes. His death not only tipped the Senate from Dem to Republican, but it also lost the country an independent thinker and a true voice for the people. I know that if he had lived, he would have been digging and pushing for information, unlike most of the other Senate cowards. Here's an article on him from Feb 2001 (MotherJones liked to get its digs into Wellstone):<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/power_plays/2001/01/powerplays_wellstone.html">www.motherjones.com/comme...stone.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/17/06 11:21 am<br></i>
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Reccommended CRAP!!!

Postby DBtv » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:23 pm

Debunks NOTHING.<br><br>Personal attacks on truth seekers are counterproductive to the debunkers' cause and a signal of desperation.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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What Cheney said to Wellstone

Postby heyjt » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:33 pm

At a meeting full of war veterans in Willmar, Minn., days before his death, Wellstone told attendees that Cheney told him, "If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you. There will be severe ramifications for you and the state of Minnesota." <br><br><br> <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.liberalslant.com/jt123003.htm">www.liberalslant.com/jt123003.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br><br> I think Al Franken is the only liberal in Minnesota that believes Wellstone's crash was an accident... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: What Cheney said to Wellstone

Postby Qutb » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:52 pm

Regardless of what Bennett's political views might be (I have no idea), he makes some very good observations on the peculiarities of the 9/11 Truth Movement.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/leonard_pitts/15522667.htm" target="top">This</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> is another good comment, written by Pulitzer prize winner Leonard Price, Jr. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You might call it cynicism, but cynicism is quaint and 20th century compared to this new tendency to reflexively reject any facts provided by government or the dreaded mainstream media. Conspiracy theorizing is not new -- ask Elvis next time you see him -- but what is new is that the Internet has broken the government/media monopoly on the dissemination and definition of news.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>While that's good in many ways, one troubling byproduct is this new notion that you cannot truly understand the great and terrible events of our time without access to some ''factier'' facts promulgated by some website most of us never heard of with an ideological slant that conveniently mirrors one's own.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Granted, government lies sometimes and conspires sometimes and media fail sometimes to be energetic watchdogs. So certainly people have a right -- a duty -- to be skeptical of both.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>This, however, isn't skepticism. It's rote rejection, baby tossed out with bath water.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Once upon a time, we all drew from the same body of fact. We may have constructed different truths, but they were all based upon commonly accepted facts. We all knew, for instance, that the shuttle Challenger exploded in 1986. From that, we could debate what the tragedy meant and we might or might not reach consensus, but as long as no one argued that it was really destroyed by aliens, we at least had the same frame of reference.<br><br>NO DEBATE<br><br>No longer, as the questions of whether there was really a terrorist attack on Sept. 11 make abundantly clear. So honest debate becomes nearly impossible and consensus, even more so. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I mean, you may think a wall looks best in yellow, I may think it looks best in red. But if we can't agree on what yellow and red are or what a wall is, we have no basis for even arguing about it</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.<br><br>If you doubt that, ask yourself: When's the last time you had a political debate that was fruitful as opposed to merely loud?<br><br>Don't feel bad. I can't remember myself.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: What Cheney said to Wellstone

Postby isachar » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:04 pm

So, yes, the government always tells the truth. They never lie. War is Peace. Torture is freedom. Iraq had WMD's. Hussen was involved in 911. The Muslims hate us because of our freedoms. There was no election fraud in 2000 or 2004. VietNam was a domino. Osama was never a CIA asset. We have a free press. The Bush admin doesn't pay journalists to print propaganda. Judith Miller wasn't an agent. The Constitution, Bill of Rights and Geneva Convention are all 'quaint' documents.....<br><br>Oh, yes, great and mighty Qutb, you are right. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the neo-Staussians would never tell a lie.<br><br>In case you haven't seen it yet, from another current thread.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6131142214433741484&q=911+what+we+saw">video.google.co.uk/videop...hat+we+saw</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=isachar>isachar</A> at: 9/17/06 12:05 pm<br></i>
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Re: What Cheney said to Wellstone

Postby darkbeforedawn » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:09 pm

Heyjt: is Al Franken a sold out gatekeeper type? What's your take on that? I don't think I have ever heard him openly discuss 9-11, but then I don't listen all the regularly. What's the deal with him? Is he like the "reformed" conservative Ed Schulz? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: What Cheney said to Wellstone

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:07 pm

Sorry, but this part gave me the giggles:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"...Likewise fellow member Steven Jones, although a physicist by trade, teaches at the Mormon institution Brigham Young University, where he has recorded a speech comparing 9/11 to events in the Book of Mormon.ii In this speech he spends almost as much time talking about the religious implications, as the science. Dr. Jones, also in the past has published a paper, arguing that Jesus visited the New World shortly after his death, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>a theological belief held by the Mormon Church, but not backed by any accepted archeological record. iii While I would not deny him his religious beliefs, one wonders if the same fervent beliefs and standards of evidence spill over into his “scholarly” work.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br><br><br>Kevin Barrett, whose job as a part time lecturer at the University of Wisconsin- Madison has come under fire lately, is another example. He also does not hold a scientific or engineering post, he is a professor of folklore. In fact he started an 9/11 “skeptics” organization based entirely on religious belief called Muslim-Christian-Alliance for 9/11 Truthiv and has made no secret that much of the inspiration for his views of 9/11 is caused by his study of..."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Apparently, only Mormon religious beliefs need to be supported by archeological proof (cough, cough), Is he saying only the Catholics,Jews, and fundie Christians can have a credible opinion on 9/11? Sorry, weird argument. As for the conspiracy theorists' reliance on "expert witnesses", we should take the word of an ..........MBA student? Hmmm... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: What Cheney said to Wellstone

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:31 pm

Actually, if you want to talk about religion and 9/11, let me mention my fascination with the convergence of the American Jewish neo-cons in this administration (most with strong personal ties to the right-wing government in Israel), the Moonies (and their strong ties to the Bush family), the Opus Deiists (and the likelihood that three of the Supreme Court judges belong to or have ties to OD ), and the ranting fundie Christian Dominionists ,----all at the same intersection point, GW Bush's administration. This didn't happen in our only Catholic president's administration, not in fundie Christian Jimmy Carter's administration, but in GW's administration. AND, they're all in bed together, pushing for anti-gay legislation, faith-based programs, and completely un-critical support for Israel with immoral weapons, finances, and policies, AND ALL PUSHING FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ. What a cluster-fuck. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/17/06 1:56 pm<br></i>
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Re: What Cheney said to Wellstone

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:39 pm

Oh, yes, and ALL trying to make war on Islam, for their own purposes. In a way, you could say that each of these groups are Dominionist in manner, if you apply the term loosely. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The Chief Brief

Postby Iroquois » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:50 pm

I believe that the author of blog titled "The Chief Brief" (see: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/">thechiefbrief.blogspot.com/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> ) is the same James Bennett that authored the article Qutb linked to at the top of the thread. The following text is the contents of the "About Me" section of his blog:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br> Name:James B. <br> Location:Bellevue, Washington <br><br>Chief is a combination software geek from Bellevue, part-time Chief Warrant Officer in the Army National Guard (thus the clever name), and current MBA student. A graduate in Russian and East European studies from the University of Washington, his interests include foreign affairs, economics, politics, technology and languages. Polite inquiries and job offers will be answered at chiefb-at-gmail.com<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>If you really feel like getting pissed off, read some of his blog entries. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=iroquois@rigorousintuition>Iroquois</A> at: 9/17/06 1:51 pm<br></i>
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Re: The Chief Brief

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:54 pm

Well, it did cross my mind that he was auditioning for a job with W. by the little bit I've read. He might want to re-consider hitching himself to a falling star. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/17/06 1:54 pm<br></i>
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Re: The Chief Brief

Postby chiggerbit » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:10 pm

One thing I will say is how interesting it is that so many conspiracy theorists (not all, by ANY means) like to focus on the Jews, or as they say, the "neo-cons". There is very little attention given by theses particular theorists to the role the Moonies or the Dominionists or the Opus Deiists might play in the larger conspiracies. I'm aware of the amazing amount of cooperation between these groups (for example, the huge amount of money Falwell received from the Moonies). But I'm also sure that any one group will stick a knife in the back of each other group when the time is right. But, what I sometimes wonder is if one or more of these groups is covertly behind the intense focus on the "neocons", while publicly courting them. Just a thought. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/17/06 2:13 pm<br></i>
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