rigorousintuition.ca

I had thoughts of posting this on DE's "Zionism and History" thread, but since this is more current, I'm giving it its own space for reaction and comment. I'm not as versed in all of it as I should be (though Alice and DE are helping correct that).<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Jerusalem's Christian leaders denounce Zionism<br><br>09/29/06<br><br>Four Christian leaders in Jerusalem, Palestine, have joined voices to condemn a religious theology and political philosophy driving much of current policy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.<br><br>The Latin Patriarchate for Jerusalem, the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate for Jerusalem, the Episcopal Bishop for Jerusalem and the Middle East and the Bishop for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan have co-signed a letter declaring Christian Zionism “detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Israel.”<br><br>According to “The Jerusalem Declaration on Christian Zionism,” the Zionist program “provides a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism.” The document claims that Zionism in its extreme form “places an emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ’s love and justice today.”<br><br>Zionism in its secular form is championed by many Jews in Israel, while its religious expression is popular with fundamentalist Christians, especially in the United States. Some conservative Christians believe that Israel has a divine right to all the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea because, according to their reading of the Old Testament, God gave it to Abraham’s descendants. They also believe that, once Israel expels the Palestinians from the West Bank, Jesus will return.<br><br>Said the four Christian leaders, “We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as false teaching that corrupts the biblical message.”<br><br>The statement, signed on August 22, also condemned “the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizations with elements in the governments of Israel and the United States” that, they declare, promotes policies leading to “unending cycles of violence.”<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpID=380&NewsID=751316&CategoryID=332&show=localnews&om=1">Link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p></p><i></i>

Wow what a surpirse that is. Now if the christians could just get Hagee, Falwell, Robertson and the rest of those thugs out of bed with the zionists maybe they would accomplish something. Christians are being led by the nose right into the proverbial pit of fire. This isnt about Jewish people, it is about corrupt zionist leadership. <p></p><i></i>

Masonic Plot, you shouldn't just lump all self-proclaimed "churches" or Christians together. The churches named by snowlion2 have a very rich history and deep roots in the Middle East, particularly the first two. <br><br>The Christian Zionists are right-wing jingoistic fanatics, and most Christians, Muslims and Jews rightly fear them, since they spread hatred and destruction wherever they go.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.<br>St Matthew, 7. 17<br> <br>By their fruits ye shall know them.<br>St Matthew, 7. 20<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The churches named in snowlion2's article are actual Christian churches, rather than thinly-veiled agitprop organs for the neocon agenda. Their parishioners (and the church leaders) tend to be local, including many Palestinians and even Lebanese (one of the Bishops is a relative of mine by marriage).<br><br>They enjoy widespread respect among Christians and Muslims because their track record speaks of integrity, charity, deep faith, love for mankind, opposition to injustice and refusal to engage in violence of any kind.<br><br>Frankly, I'm furious that you would even speak of them in the same breath as those "Christian Zionist" phonies.<br><br>I guess it's not your fault that you don't know, but the record of these churches speaks for itself, as does the record of their parishioners; it is on this basis that their action stands. <p></p><i></i>

I understand the difference. I know those syrian and coptic christian churces are the real deal. I didnt intend to say anything against them. Its just a nice surpirse to see any christian speaking out agianst the zionist thugs. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=masonicplot>MASONIC PLOT</A> at: 10/4/06 2:17 pm<br></i>

Thanks, Masonic Plot, as we say here, "you've cooled off my heart".<br><br>By the way, there are lots and lots and lots of Christians, besides the Arab churches, around the world and in the US, speaking out against Zionism, Israel's illegal occupation and the US's neocon agenda, but somehow, they're almost never seen or heard in the corporate media. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :\ --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.johndear.org/speeches/love_your.html">www.johndear.org/speeches/love_your.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.cpt.org/">www.cpt.org/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.globalministries.org/mee/me032503.htm">www.globalministries.org/...032503.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/full_article.cfm?articleid=4049">gbgm-umc.org/global_news/...cleid=4049</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>etc., etc. (this list is what I got from a few minutes of surfing the net -- I'm sure you could find many more examples)<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Denouncing "Christian" zionism is cool -- it's an easy target, after all, evangelical Christians don't control any major media organizations or the like. But it's sort of like denouncing the tail but not the dog. You cannot blame Christian Zionists for policies enacted by Israel.The Knesset and IDF are hardly taking their orders from Falwell and Robertson. Rather, the influence flows in the opposite direction. "Christian" Zionism has always been a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of Jewish zionism and is only dangerous to the extent that it supports the latter, which is where the real protest should be directed. <br> <p></p><i></i>

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>[The churches named by snowlion2 have a very rich history and deep roots in the Middle East, particularly the first two. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Yeah, I think it's called the Crusades. <br><br>I would have thought that at the founding of the Latin Church in Jerusalem, you and I Alice would have been on the same side. Go figure.<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/57/SaladinRexAegypti.jpg/200px-SaladinRexAegypti.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <p></p><i></i>

The Coptic and Syriac churches were not founded by the crusades. Both were established within 50 years of Christ's death -- they predate both Islam (7th century) and the Roman Catholic church (legally established in the late 4th century).<br><br>Also, the Patriarch of the Latin Patriarchal Diocese is a Palestinian from Nazareth, Michel Sabbah, as are his two Patriarchal Vicars for Jerusalem and Amman, and he has been very active and vocal in defence of the human and legal rights of all people, Christian and Muslim and Jewish. <br><br>You'd have a very hard time equating today's Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, which is comprised of and deeply rooted in the local population, with the foreign military rulers of Jerusalem at the time of the crusades. <br><br>As far as I know, none of these churches, including the Episcopal and the Lutheran, engage in, advocate or even sanction any form of violence or oppression. In fact, in 1999 the Latin Patriarch was elected president of the global Christian peace movement Pax Christi International.<br><br>These churches have come out with a clear statement exposing and condemning the perversion of Christ's message that calls itself "Christian Zionism".<br><br>If you disagree with them, say so. But your ad hominem attack on them is not only irrelevant, but based on a distorted or completely inaccurate reading of history. <p></p><i></i>

Jerusalem was captured in the First Crusade and a small kingdom established there which lasted about 200 years. Given the times, there'd be no real practical way to draw a line between Church and State, but it was at that time that the Patriarch was established.<br><br>The First Crusades were the first instance of European expansionism. They also set out with the objective of killing Muslims. Along the way, they also massacred Jews in large numbers. In fact, here's a handy picture from a French bible of the brave crusaders killing Jews:<br><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/FirstCrusade.jpg/200px-FirstCrusade.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br>Further irony is to be had in that Jews in Jerusalem fought against the Crusaders. Jews and Muslims both fighting on the same side against the Christians.<br><br>The Crusades really marked the beggining of the cycle of pogroms against Jews that would plaugue Europe leading almost inexorably, it seems in hindsight, to the Holocaust itself. <br> <br>Deus vult, y'all.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

And your point is....?<br><br>Try to relate it to the topic of this thread, if possible. <p></p><i></i>

That's how the Latin patriarch started, ya big silly. As a result of the capture of Jerusalem during the first Crusade.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Yeah, and America was founded on the corpses of the native population -- so now American peace activists aren't allowed to speak out? I don't get your logic. <br><br>You're confusing the FOREIGN military occupation of Jerusalem with the current nonviolent, peaceful church made up of LOCAL parishioners.<br><br>You've got to get rid of this "blood on our hands unto the 7th generation" crap -- people are not responsible for what their ancestors or predecessors did, and should not be punished for crimes they did not commit.<br><br>Individuals, not peoples/nations are responsible for their actions and should be treated accordingly. <p></p><i></i>

That Latin patriarch is no longer part of the Catholic church? Anyway, I was responding to your point about their long histories. <p></p><i></i>