Why were they taking pictures?

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Why were they taking pictures?

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:36 am

From the Taguba Report:<br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/JeffWells/abugraibstatement.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"And the female soldier was taking pictures."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>It sounds like a porn shoot. So, was it?<br><br>What was the point of all the pictures? Who was the intended audience?<br><br>Has it always been America? Is the withholding of the images just a striptease? Is it another exercise in desensitization and brutalization? <p></p><i></i>
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censorship of images

Postby robertdreed » Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:49 am

among other "benefits", it preserves their value for the private porn collectors market. <br><br>First the ancient antiquities of Uruk, now this... <p></p><i></i>
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...

Postby Ted the dog » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:04 pm

<br><br>that's what I was wondering. why take photos as evidence? eventually, someone is bound to disagree with what's going on, (no matter how much peer pressure is involved), and then they're going to blow the whistle.....it's like dipping your hand in the red paint voluntarily.<br><br>would there be any occult significance to taking pictures? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ...stanford prison experiment and other thoughts

Postby hmm » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:35 pm

basic rundown of the experiment<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sta...Experiment</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>some good links to pdf's and talks relating to the experiment by and about Dr. Zimbardo<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.prisonexp.org/links.htm">www.prisonexp.org/links.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>humans can be nasty animals.<br>But "something" has been setting the stage that lead to this moment in time,the soldier rapes child while cheerleader films.And its been going on for a long long time.<br>I'm sure it would have been called the occult, but to study a part of that art in a modern setting you study advertising, pr, marketing, psychology, and behavioral sciences.The magical powers of a advertising guru, a film director,or a "evil psychologist" to create reality and control minds is unparalleled in history?<br><br>So its good question and i think part of the answer lies in that nobody though there was anything wrong with what they were doing. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ...

Postby ZeroHaven » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:46 pm

This <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/usinfo/press/prison.htm" target="top">US News story</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> points some of the reasoning at faulty, or downright lacking leadership. For a time there appeared no-one to report things to.<br><br>"Weak leadership in the prison meant soldiers couldn?t accomplish basic tasks, like feed their detainees, much less find someone to prosecute abuse. And without a clear chain of authority, some soldiers just ran wild. "One of the tower guards was shooting prisoners with lead balls and slingshot," a company commander testified. Soldiers ran around wearing civilian clothes, and covered latrines with so much graffiti that a commander had them painted black, and then threatened to post a guard at each location. An Army captain allegedly secretly photographed female subordinates while they were showering in outside stalls."<br><br>When you consider that these soldiers have been in a harsh climate for months (years?), seeing death and destruction all around them, it seems that this form of mental breakdown isn't all that surprising. What means of stress-relief were they provided? What means were at their disposal?<br><br>I've looked at some of the pictures, and although they're brutal I don't really see any 'satanic ritual' style connections. I mean, the soldiers in those photos are reminiscent of fraternity boys posing after a panty raid. Take a good hard look into their eyes. <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/index.htm" target="top">Memory Hole - graphic photos</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Seeing your buddies get blown to pieces eventually takes it's toll no matter which side you're on. I'd say that if there was some planned intent of psychological abuse, it hit the soldiers just as hard as the detainees. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>
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Re: ...i just want to turn this around on you

Postby hmm » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:09 pm

If this was Arabs or African-americans and the victims were innocent little white girls would ANYONE ask us to look into their eyes and see "fraternity boys posing after a panty raid"<br>Or would "we" already be out lynching? <p></p><i></i>
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Abu Ghraib

Postby robertdreed » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:23 pm

Vietnam veteran and author Tim O'Brien pointed out in an interview that war provides unparalleled oppportunities for young men to abuse power, and that he wasn't surprised to hear of the atrocity stories in Iraq. I think the interview was in <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Progressive</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, some time last year. <br><br><br>Although I'm not sure how being surrounded by a climate of death and destruction accounts for this incident:<br><br> "An Army captain allegedly secretly photographed female subordinates while they were showering in outside stalls."<br><br>Also, note that once such apologism is extended to members of the coalition force, logically it also excuses the atrocities of the Iraqi insurgency- including the hanging of burned American corpses from the bridge at Fallujah, by a few of the anti-government guerillas. That single image eventually led to the flattening of most of that city of 300,000 by US forces, in a manner reminiscent of the Romans salting the earth of Carthage. <br><br>What you won't hear in the U.S. News article is how much of the "weak leadership" inside of the prison seems to have been by design. Listen to this audio by General Janice Karpinski, the "commandant" of Abu Ghraib prison, and you'll find out, among other things, that she was ordered not to visit the prison after nightfall, and that there were several locked wards for which she lacked keys:<br><br> <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/05/05-04karpinski-audio.html">www.commonwealthclub.org/...audio.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>It's clear to me that Gen. Karpinski was the designated scapegoat for the Abu Ghraib atrocities, and this too was part of a plan. Some "faulty leadership"...<br><br>Compartmentalization, compartmentalization, compartmentalization. From his studies of bureaucracy and modernity in Bismarck's Prussia, Max Weber knew. <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 7/26/05 2:24 pm<br></i>
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...

Postby Ted the dog » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:15 pm

"When you consider that these soldiers have been in a harsh climate for months (years?), seeing death and destruction all around them, it seems that this form of mental breakdown isn't all that surprising. What means of stress-relief were they provided? What means were at their disposal?<br><br>I've looked at some of the pictures, and although they're brutal I don't really see any 'satanic ritual' style connections. I mean, the soldiers in those photos are reminiscent of fraternity boys posing after a panty raid. Take a good hard look into their eyes. Memory Hole - graphic photos<br><br>Seeing your buddies get blown to pieces eventually takes it's toll no matter which side you're on. I'd say that if there was some planned intent of psychological abuse, it hit the soldiers just as hard as the detainees. "<br><br>I agree. there's something going on above what we're seeing in those pictures. But...although there's no obvious "satanic-looking" elements, after reading about this kind of thing for a while now, I'm starting to realize that a lot of what we're dealing with when we discuss SRA or occult type sexual abuse is extreme juvenilia. look at the quote from Jeff's second most recent blog:<br><br><br>This is the Age of Magic, Where everything is run by Spells!<br>This is the Age of Magic, Where everything is run by Spells!<br><br>That sounds absolutely juvenile...."Where everything is run by Spells!"? that's something a child would say. yet it was performed on stage at Bohemian Grove for some pretty important high ranking people....they must see some value in it.<br><br><br>my point is, (and maybe I'm a late bloomer here) I'm starting to see this stuff as a sort of switch that's flipped and the person being abused isn't the only one being manipulated. like you said, the abusers might be victims as well. The faces of the guards in the photos are remarkably jolly....that could be a form of escapism from the harsh reality of their situation, but they look like they've lost their fucking minds. that's not just frat boy posing, that's complete and utter mental detachment. and, like you said, WE don't know what they've been through...<br><br><br>...but it strikes me as curious that behind all this heavy duty, high tech, computerized, laser guided, heat seeking military technology, is the most base act of penetration. I'm visualizing a chimp being put into the cockpit of a $5 million fighter jet and then licking it's own ass and throwing excrement all over the controls. Maybe that's what the mission is all about. We spend BILLIONS to go over there and sodomize people in a detainee camp? THAT's what it's all about? (where's Alfie when you need him?)<br><br>the same thing applies to all the Crowlian stuff everyone is always talking about....these "ridiculous" rituals that seem laughably simple and hokey.... yet behind them is the act of sodomy. Why? why is the base act of penetrating someone behind/the end result of this stuff? it's base and primal, but is there something more to it? it's certainly useful in breaking someone's will, but again, is there something more to it?<br><br>I just find it interesting that things like excrement, anal penetration, anal fixation, urine, bodily fluids, etc etc are all elements that pop up again and again and again with stories of abuse like this. Those things definitely have a rooting in juvenile and infantile behavior. and a lot of the rituals and visual hoo hah involved with this stuff seems just as juvenile and ridiculous and simplistic on the surface......<br><br><br>.......yet when we all start examining them more closely, they have very specific patterns and are more complex than they first appear....and some pretty important people seem to care a great deal about this stuff. It's strange to imagine some of the elite making strange hand symbols and acting like overgrown babies and chanting and covering a child (or in this case a detainee) in excrement...for what purpose? I don't know...but again, some pretty important people seem pretty interested. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ...i dont know if you have heard about these figures

Postby hmm » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:35 pm

i find this quite telling:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.peacemagazine.org/archive/v12n4p26a.htm">www.peacemagazine.org/arc...n4p26a.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"It has been assumed that the soldier kills in combat to defend his life and to obey his leaders. Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall, an official U.S. historian of World War II, interviewed thousands of soldiers, asking them what it was they did in battle. The results were consistent: only 15 percent to 20 percent of the American riflemen in combat fired at the enemy. Marshall concluded that the average and healthy individual "has such an inner and totally unrealized resistance towards killing a fellow man that he will not of his own volition take life if it is possible to turn away from that responsibility ... At the vital point the soldier becomes a conscientious objector."<br><br>Changes in training, however, increased this firing rate, which reached 55 percent in the Korean War and 90 percent to 95 percent in Vietnam."<br><br>To me that reads as a deliberate program to modify behaviour ..<br>I think i can confidently say its part trauma based?certainly ritualised.Someone researched this.<br>For someone who hates the term mind control i sure see alot of behaviour modification going on <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :b --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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"ritualized"

Postby Avalon » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:22 pm

I'd want us to be really, really careful about the use of the word "ritualized" unless there is some overt reason to use it in a ceremonial sense.<br><br>Repetition, setting, rhyme, tone of voice, visual clues -- they all are factors in ritual or in any sort of training or situation where a specific behavior or mindset is the goal. The object is to put the behavior on cue, so that it can be accessed when needed or desired. This applies just as much if you want to be changing your own behavior. And yes, we all -- every one of us -- work on behavior modification (ours or someone else's) for a goodly part of each day, usually in a fairly benign fashion.<br><br>"Here come the airplane full of mashed peas iiiiiinnnnttttoooo the haaaaannnnngggggeeerrrr..."<br><br>"Sit Maxl, SIT. Sit. GOOD puppy! Treat!"<br><br>"Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to celebrate the union..."<br><br>These are rituals, just as much ritual as recruits jogging to a cadence of "I don't know but I've been told, I DON'T KNOW BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD, Senators' pockets are lined with gold" or some jerk drawing sigils on the floor of his parents' basement in the hopes that he'll finally get laid.<br><br>Does bad ritual behavior go on? Of course, and we're finding a lot of it to disuss here. But lets not debase the clarity of our conversation with making words so vague that they no longer mean anything.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Tradition

Postby Avalon » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:01 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"That sounds absolutely juvenile...."Where everything is run by Spells!"? that's something a child would say. yet it was performed on stage at Bohemian Grove for some pretty important high ranking people....they must see some value in it."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Not to make excuses for them or what ultimately goes on there, but can't some of this also be taken at face value?<br><br>First information I'd want is what the other plays there over the years have been, so that we could say if this is isolated or part of a pattern, both in terms of subject matter and content. The third Harry Potter novel with its attendant publicity had come out several weeks before the 1999 Bohemian Grove session, and of course Merlin has been a literary subject for some eight centuries.<br><br>Juvenile, or at least bad amateur playwriting, sure. Who are the creators and audience there, English majors or powerful figures in industry and government?<br><br>It's a juvenile notion of magick as well. Sure, spells can be useful in some circumstances, and it's a style of working that many individuals and traditions prefer to utilize. But they can also be a self-conscious prop that gets in the way of effectively working with magick.<br><br>Yes, the Harry Potter version of magick does have spells, and most people including the "no girls in the treehouse" Bohemian Clubwill think of it was being how magick is done.<br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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sent button hit too soon

Postby Avalon » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:07 pm

[sent button hit too soon on above posting]<br><br>But to say from the outside that that sort of spellifying under those circumstances is actual magick is like seeing Jesus and a popsicle portrayed as being attached to the end of long pieces of wood and thinking they are equivalent.<br><br>How much is goofy rustic camp tradition, and how much is about powerful men raping little kids? That's for them to know, and us to find out.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: psychology

Postby ZeroHaven » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:36 pm

Ted the Dog said <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but they look like they've lost their fucking minds.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>YES thanks that what I was getting at. I have to learn to write better. I was failing to describe that they look like they're on a gleeful, psychotic, drug-laced frenzy. I guess my local frats were wilder than others...<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>why is the base act of penetrating someone behind/the end result of this stuff? it's base and primal<br>...<br>I just find it interesting that things like excrement, anal penetration, anal fixation, urine, bodily fluids, etc etc <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Maybe somebody who's more familiar with these forms of BDSM can explain the psychology better than I. <br>What I know is that the elements you mentioned are used for psychological manipulation and displays of power on an individual level. Given the horrid conditions, these abusive acts can be viewed as an attempt to regain some control on the part of the soldiers. I mentioned BDSM because participants already understand this psychology of control and explore it willingly. <br>We also have to acknowledge that some people simply enjoy this sort of thing if allowed to do it. There need be no religion, ritual or 'greater plan' involved.<br><br>Going back to the question of "why take pictures" .. it CAN be viewed as simply as having a trophy to bring home. I believe somebody already quoted the article that these types of pictures were distributed widely and were found in soldiers' luggage at the border. If the soldiers didn't WANT the pictures, for whatever reason, why would they attempt to bring them home?<br><br>There might have been a greater plan to force the conditions that would break the soldiers into becoming abusive, but I have to read more before commenting on that. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>
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Spells

Postby antiaristo » Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:43 pm

Be very clear that spells DO exist.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>In 1994 the wicked old witch of Windsor cast an evil spell on my family and me. In 2002 I broke that spell, only to have the Knights of the Prince of Lies deny there was ever such a spell in the first place. When you tell me this decision is not subject to appeal you speak a higher truth than you understand, for this bad faith cheating by the Council of Europe invites only violence in return.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Quoting myself.<br><br>How to cast a spell? You can do it if (i) people do not know you exist and (ii) you have powers that people do not know exist.<br><br>The upshot is that only the victim and the perpetrators know that the spell exists.<br><br>Which brings us back to Christopher, as quoted by Stephen Knight.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>There is no defence against an evil that only the victim and the perpetrators know exists.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <p></p><i></i>
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spells

Postby Avalon » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:36 pm

Yes, spells exist.<br><br>But don't automatically confuse the desire to make something happen with spells, or the action of performing a spell, with actual magick being accomplished.<br><br>If they always worked it would be a far different world than the one we live in. And I could grab my Nimbus 2000 broom instead of putting the car in the shop to have the brakes worked on.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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