Shots Fired Near Camp Casey

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They have no concept how this will be used against us

Postby proldic » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:49 pm

I tend to agree with you on this one chiggerbit. It's the tradegy of the modern Euro-American left-wing movement. <br><br>I've been reticent to comment too much on this outpouring of positive feelings for Sheehan, and collective call for peace, lest my comments be misinterpreted as negative energy. The feelings that are coming from all over the country represent something deep and good, and should not be stifled in any way. <br><br>However...I've seen this same passion and righteous fury before, for 30 years, from peace encampment to protest line.<br><br>Doesn't mean I don't think it's necessary to the overall struggle, or that it won't make some difference. The question is how much.<br><br>I'll say that my personal reading of history shows that, in the modern USA, these type of situations tend to become co-opted, and the messengers quickly become self-limiting in their REVOLUTIONARY effectiveness (I know, I know - proldic's and his neighbors judgment entirely), especially after being "through the buzzsaw" of the American political experience.<br><br>I brought up one example, and -- in my opinion -- if she did really write that letter, unless she comes out and clearly says "I was completely misled into a very dangerous alley and here's why", then she has already greatly limited her impact, and has set herself up for dicredit among a large number of Americans. People "on the fence" she will need to support her in the long run.<br>It may seem unlikely right now, but remember, Malcolm X did it (and then he was shot). <br><br>Now maybe the good folks who put the primary or secondary focus on the role of Israel in the NWO power elites think that their (her) view will become accepted by many Americans due to what they see as its "infallible logic". I am afraid of that. From my perspective, I believe/hope that folks have more sense than that.<br><br>And that's why I've been talking against accepting what I see as the Neo-Con "Mythology". It's a pretty unpopular view here, I feel. I'm OK with that, because there are other important areas we can work together on -- for now. For so many reasons, their "meme" has more virulence than mine. Doesn't make it true.<br> <br>I'm not here to throw cold water on everything, mind you, just mentioning what I see as some historical realities. I'm sure many will disagree on this, but personally, I am of the opinion that the vaunted protest movement of the '60's was largely a sham. Certainly the idea that they single-handedly ended the war is a myth. <br><br>Doesn't mean that Cindy and the events at CC couldn't change history, I'm sure many there/here are convinced they will. I've heard that alot in the past, too. <br><br>I am not trying to BE cynical, but I am a little, and I have my doubts. So as this opinion is not welcome in the modern protest "scene", I step out of the way on stuff like this, and work in other ways.<br><br>Sooo, don't everyone jump down my throat. Just because I, proldic, personally don't think it will have the impact it's being hyped up to in some people's minds, doesn't mean <br><br>a) It won't have a big impact the way other people want <br><br>b) If I'm not cheerleading for Cindy, I'm not personally doing anything. If you think that attending and supporting these protests is the only - or even the most - important thing to be doing to change things for the better, I'd say we have some serious disagreements. <br><br>c) That my critcisms will somehow harm her cause. If she has this capability for creating greatness in people at this moment in histroy, she will rise above all the detractors and naysayers, of her own righteous power. If that's the case, then it's not me that will harm her. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: They have no concept how this will be used against us

Postby GDN01 » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:00 am

Cindy denied that the words "my son died for Israel" are her words. She did say she thinks the Palestinian-Israeli conflict needs a more equitable resolution and our foreign policies tend to favor Israel, which does not help in the Middle East. I am paraphrasing what I remember hearing on CNN tonight when she was interviewed by Cooper.<br><br>Again - I'm hearing what we shouldn't do. Tell me what we should do.<br><br>If the African Americans had decided they didn't want to inconvenience anyone in the Civil Rights movement we'd still have Jim Crow laws. Tell me how to go about bringing about change in this country. Give me an example of when a huge injustice has been corrected without anyone being inconvenienced? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: They have no concept how this will be used against us

Postby chiggerbit » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:06 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If this conversation is all it takes to make you decide to support the war and the lies and actions of the Bush regime, then you weren't even near the fence.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br><br>I have never been on the fence. The first time I heard that Busssh was considering invading Iraq, I thought it was a joke. It was the stupidest thing I had ever heard, and couldn't believe that anyone was seriously considering attacking Iraq. You see, I had been paying attention. How about Cindy? Was she listening? Were you? You are not listening now, so why should I believe your were listening then? Just listen, let them know that you are listening.<br><br>Thanks, proldic, if I may paraphrase you, this group is only preaching to the choir.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 8/15/05 10:08 pm<br></i>
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Re: I think it is time for people to be inconvenienced.

Postby Sweejak » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:08 am

Here is a snip from an email:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>The video I have happened because right after I parked I got out of the car and there she [Sheehan] was across the street, I started taking some still pics and they were wiring her for the remote interview which was probably broadcast on ABC or something. The wind was blowing and it was vibrating the reflective panel they use to light the shadow side of her face and I offered to hold it steady so I pulled out my camcorder and started filming while I was steadying the panel. Being a remote interview you can't hear the questions she is being asked, only the answers but you can easily deduce the questions. The rest of the video features the crosses and the crowd and a bit of the debate with the preacher's wife but doesn't have the really good part of that because I was invoved in the debate.<br><br>The preacher's wife and I came to terms after I said "look, we probably have the same core values, we probably both believe in family, country, a good education, good food, clean air etc....right ?"... "And the right/left thing mostly doesn't make sense, it's mostly about lifestyle choices, like maybe Gays, but we probably agree that even though we differ on that we agree that they should have equal civil rights." When she sort of agreed with this I said "You probably think I'm a "liberal", I have long hair and I'm out here, but do you know I'm for the Minuteman Project, unless it get's hijacked, and I'm for the Second Amendment, I don't need the Supreme court to tell me what it says, it's right there in the 2nd Amendment. So, am I a "liberal for guns and the Minutemen?". When I mentioned the Supreme Court she got on about "activist judges" and I said, "Well, where is the check and balance on the Supreme court? You know of course they installed Bush in 2000! Talk about activist judges, you must understand that is how most of the people here feel, and they feel that with very good evidence."<br><br>Then somehow she got on about FDR and his out manuvering of the Constitiution and I said "Yeah, OK, FDR was probably a freakin Commie LOL" ... "But you just said that we need to surrender our rights for security so what is the difference with some of FDR's actions and the Patriot Act? If your a constitutionalist you can't really have it both ways"<br><br>Next up was the Civil War, I don't know how this was brought up but I said that it was not mainly about slavery it was about Federalists and Bankers and States rights. Slavery was a legitimate social cause that was hijacked and used to demonize the underlying cause." This pretty much stopped her and she looked straight at me and I could see that the right/ left thing had dissolved, at least with me. And the frustrated "leftists" were taken a little aback as well.<br><br>Then she started talking about when she was a little girl and she asked her father about the Japanese internment during WWII and said that her father told her that it was a temporary thing that we had to do to defend ourselves and that we did give them back their businesses and land" I said "well here we disagree, you can't take a business, put it on hold for the duration and hand it back and expect it to work... What did your little girls intuition tell you about that, you knew it was wrong isn't that is why you asked? And besides Pearl Harbor was no surprise attack! You should know that. Wouldn't that have implications here?" ... "There is no way a terrorist could have taken away our Bill of Rights yet they are gone... only internal traitors could do that and that's what I think this government is... they just made the Patriot Act permanent!" "So here we really do have a difference of opinion but since we have similar values it's based on different information." "What kind of big tough military man says that we might have to dispense with the constitution when the next terrorist event happens? Tommy Franks that's who, and what party says we may have to put elections on hold if there is a terrorist event? Real warriors will say NOTHING will stop the elections and real warriors will defend the Constitution not put it on hold, they took an oath to do that!<br><br>Anyway this ended when the activist from LA and her exchanged cell phone numbers, there was going to be a teach in or something like that. I don't know if she ever went. She left after the LA guy, who does claim to be a leftist, and her and I and he shook hands and wished each other well.<br><br>A few of the people who had been arguing with her and were coming towards her (she was in a car and we were talking thru the windows) with a few guitars and preparing to seranade her with "For What It's Worth" saw this from a distance and came up and asked me "What the hell did you guys do to her, we couldn't make any headway at all."<br><br>Look, I don't know, maybe I really am a rightist disguised as a leftist, maybe I'm just confused. I don't care anymore, you can judge people by their actions.<br><br>Anyway, that's the way it happened.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Another thing I observed was that she said, towards the end, something like " I like you guys and I like different ideas and I'm tired of the same old answers"<br><br>I think she has an open mind so I don't know if this is really any kind of victory but there is no doubt that a real change happened there on the side of the road. <br><br>And remember Larry Mattledge said... "If I could get George Bush over here, I’d get him in a minute." There is your lead in, among others.<br>JMO.<br><br>How long do you think this guy will last?<br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3094/sheehanandprowsupporter8eu.jpg"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sweejak@rigorousintuition>Sweejak</A> at: 8/15/05 10:15 pm<br></i>
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Re: I think it is time for people to be inconvenienced.

Postby GDN01 » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:18 am

Chigger - Because I disagree with you does not mean I'm not listening. Again, I ask you to tell me what people should be doing that will effectively bring this war to an end. Do we need to sit quietly until 50 soldiers are dying every week and then hope that galvanizes the people? What will it take?<br><br><br><br>Swee - I've seen that account, and yes, real change is going on, on the side of the road in Crawford. Who knows what this action will lead to. Maybe it will change the course of history, maybe it won't. But Cindy's presence in Crawford has done more in the last two weeks to bring attention to the issues than anything I've witnessed in 4 years. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: They have no concept how this will be used against us

Postby Sweejak » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:36 am

Prol, I've been thru this too and I understand your holding back very well. I've cast my normal reserve, cynicism if you like, aside this time. This could change as events unfold and I do always reserve the right to change my mind.<br><br>Let me bring this up, just as a thought to add to the mix, the fear of hope is also an enemy, and as sinister and subversive as the best mind control. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I think it is time for people to be inconvenienced.

Postby raysweat » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:36 am

damn right, it's time for people to be inconvenienced.<br><br>keep the pressure on, GD....<br><br>keep it on. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I think it is time for people to be inconvenienced.

Postby chiggerbit » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:21 am

Ok, we have Qualls and Sheehan hugging, Sheehan finally now anti-war, Qualls maybe still pro-war. What does it take to get these people to listen? Get every fricking one of their kids killed to get the attention of half of them? Or less? What about the ones on the fence who don't have kids over there?Did any of you pay any attention to the flap over the Supreme Court decision on eminent domain? The right took up arms against Justice Stevens, right? The right lifted their leg and pissed on Stevens leg, marking territory on the most- leftist Justice. The right will use your disrespect of an unpolitical citizen to demonstrate how arrogant you are. As if YOU are the arrogant ones, and Bush is just the "common guy". Have any one of the dissenters talked to Larry, said sorry for the disruption, said sorry about using his ditch? For chrissake, just talk to the man. TRY to make some common ground with him. This is a guerilla war. Figure out how Rove does it, and fight back. Arrogance is stupidity. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I think it is time for people to be inconvenienced.

Postby GDN01 » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:38 am

Chigger - why do you keep assuming no one is listening? How do you know no one has said just those very things to Larry? Swee and I have both given examples of how the people at CC HAVE reached out and listened to the other side, entered into a dialogue, and people's hearts have been changed. Could it be that someone HAS talked to Larry? I know there has been a lot of effort given to making those local connections. People going to talk to the property owners in the area. Have you contacted anyone at Camp Casey and asked if there has been an effort to reach out to this man, before assuming there has been no such effort?<br><br>Let's give people at CC the benefit of the doubt for a moment, say they have spoken with this man, listened to him and apologized for the inconvenience. Now, let me ask you this, if they have done that, and he's still saying he wants them to leave, should they pack the camp up and walk away from Crawford?<br><br>I'm trying to get an answer from you, and I have asked several times. What are we supposed to do? What will end this war? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I think it is time for people to be inconvenienced.

Postby chiggerbit » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:37 am

Has anyone offered to pay Larry's family for the inconvenience? Charge a buck "admission" or free will. How is the man supposed to mow his ditch? Offer to help him. Bring the family goodies from your part of the country. Act as if you appreciate their forbearance. Don't be asking me, think for yourself. These people are not the enemy, but they will be used to whip up resentments, with or without their cooperation. Without is always better for our side. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Shots Fired Near Camp Casey

Postby chiggerbit » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am

There is a fine line between determination and arrogance. Find the line. <p></p><i></i>
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Fine line

Postby Sweejak » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:00 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> There is a fine line between determination and arrogance. Find the line.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I'm guessing that will vary with each person.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Perfect!

Postby chiggerbit » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:15 pm

Not sure I should be, but I am giggling about this dude's karma. Also, note the perfect solution. Don't tell Norman, but sometimes it pays to be nice people. <br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://198.65.14.85/News/2005/31-40/33news11.htm">198.65.14.85/News/2005/31...news11.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Michael Harvey reporting from Camp Casey<br><br>More on the truck running over the crosses: According to sources out here, the man suspected of running over the crosses with a truck hails from McLennan County and is 55 years old. He was apparently apprehended after he got a flat tire. One of the crosses was apparently stuck in a tire.<br><br>According to Dianne Wilson, a local landowner has offered one acre on one side of the road and 180 acres on the other side of the road for use by Camp Casey. Although the exact location has yet to be announced, it is apparently closer to the Bush ranch than the current location of Camp Casey. It is being speculated that Camp Casey will be moved soon.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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re: Arrogance is stupidity

Postby Starman » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:29 pm

Chiggerbit --<br><br>For the life of me, I just can't understand what yuou're going on about. You keep shouting about 'listening', but I don't think you're hearing what's being said -- that peaople at Camp Casey and millions of people who are quite passionate ab <p></p><i></i>
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re: Arrogance is stupidity

Postby Starman » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:03 pm

Chiggerbit --<br><br>For the life of me, I just can't get what you are going on about. You keep shouting for people to 'listen!', but IMO you haven't been hearing what people have been saying -- they HAVE been talking and listening -- but there's no dialogue if there's no forum. Well, they are MAKING a forum thru this act of Public Gathering to Petition their Government in the person of the so-called President for Redress of Grievances -- a very fundamental, crucial First Amendment Civil Right: <br><br>Freedom of Speech - First Amendment: an overview of your rights...assembly and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, ... The right to assemble allows people to gather for peaceful and lawful purposes. ...<br>www.berwyn-il.com/firstamendmentoverview.htm <br><br>Many tens of thousands of People like Larry would have continued blocking their ears and their minds, if not for a concerted movement galvinized behind Cindy Sheehan's principled mission to talk with the president -- and after all, the Prez. has said numerous times that he's going to use his vacation time to 'listen to the voices of the ordinary people' -- Well, he's simply showing consistency in being a self-absorbed hypocritical who lacks the courage of his convictions, because he is incapable of compassion and decency -- he's showing his true colors by refusing to listen to a parent who has been made to bear the horrible cost of a child killed killed in a stinking, rotton, illegal and immoral war fought for all the worst reasons -- national arrogance, ideological conceit, the rascist belligerance of bullying contempt for those considered inferiors who are being made scapegoats for past decades of one's own ruinous Foreign Policy, and as cover for one's own nations intimate ties and direction and support for the most atrocious forms of terrorism and violence.<br><br>And WHY do you insist that people opposing the War should act with single-strategy, one-mind uniformity of purpose and in lock-step conformity with an idealized behavior, bending over backwards to avoid potentially offending even the most thinskinned, self-absorbed bigot? Your expectation is worse than absurd -- its intrinsically defeatist and a cop-out besides being impractical and denying the reality that those people reflecting very personalized, unique, progressive, social-activist, anti-war, truth-seeking, reformist and etc. positions and beliefs, are the STRONGEST when they are true to their OWN beleifs and positions -- they share some perspectives and values, but there's NOTHING like the straight-laced, regimented, homogenized 'position' that the rightwing moral-majority Republicans spend so much time and energy creating and maintaining, telling their supporters what narrow ideas to embrace -- to the extent that they vet each-and-every rally and speech attendee for evidence of 'unapproved' opinions and views, from the kinds of bumperstickers on their cars and the printed t-shirts under their clothes to their history or attending 'unapproved' demonstrations and talks. Your sense of where the alternative-progressive-activist community gets their integrity and strength from is like 180 degrees from mine -- I see individuality and personal integrity and self-expression as enormous strengths, even with the quirks and human foibles and flaws that ALL people contain, but which you see as tremendous liabilities because the 'message' isn't so-easily kept on-track and focused. I think we have radically different notions of what works and where strength lies, even what 'unity' is about. You expect the anti-war demonstrators and protestors to act with one mind -- where EVER do you get such a crazy notion of where deeply-held convictions come from, that people would abandon their self-autonomy and stop acting in accord with their principles, to 'follow' a script?<br><br>re: Your assumption that no-one bothered to talk with Larry after his foolish shotgun demonstration of contempt for his temporary neighbors, which he insisted as viewing as unwanted, unappreciated guests he had no intention of being civil to.<br><br>Immediately after his shooting-demonstration, Cindy Shehan went over and tried to talk with him -- HE refused to listen or talk to her. I read this right-after your comment yesterday, and am surprised no-one brought it to your attention. Also, I read another Camp Sheehan accompanied a reporter who talked with larry later, and at least answered a few questions -- in which he showed that he might have been out in the sun a few years too long without a hat.<br><br>Re:<br>Mother’s Iraq-war Protest near Bush Ranch Picks Up Steam<br>August 16th, 2005 <br>Published on Monday, August 15, 2005 by Orlando Sentinel (Florida)<br><br>--excerpt--<br><br>Anti-war protester Cindy Sheehan speaks to the media after land owner fired off his shotgun in the air during an interfaith prayer service at Sheehan’s camp near Crawford, Texas, Sunday, Aug. 14, 2005. Sheehan came over to try and talk to the land owner who did not accept her offer. (AP Photo/LM Otero)<br><br>--unquote--<br><br>Regrdz;<br>Starman <p></p><i></i>
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