Shots Fired Near Camp Casey

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Re: re: Arrogance is stupidity

Postby chiggerbit » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:05 pm

Shouting, starman? How so? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: re: Arrogance is stupidity

Postby chiggerbit » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:19 pm

Going through the motions of listening without "hearing" what the man is saying is not listening. Please tell me what points the man has tried to make--in a condensed form, if you don't mind. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 8/16/05 6:20 pm<br></i>
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?

Postby Starman » Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:28 pm

"Please tell me what points the man has tried to make--in a condensed form, if you don't mind."<br><br>You gotta lotta nerve!<br>The folks at Camp Casey and the Peace House in town have created a dynamic forum that uncounted thousands of persons have engaged with.<br><br>Camp Casey is NOT just about Larry-the-discomfitted-neighbor. If that was the ONLY point to your comments about listening, then I wish you'd been clearer so I woudn't have bothered commenting -- lost cause and all that.<br><br>For one counseling golks to listen, you apparently feel above showing by example, You've blown off the sharp observations and comments by several folks on this thread who have attempted dialogue. I guess you don't think dialogue has a place in listening, you don't understand that one-sided listening is manipulative and disengenuous. This is the point you seem to be showing by example. You dismissed or ignored several on-point comments I made above -- yet feel at-liberty to direct me to respond to your specific direction.<br><br>I get it-- even if you don't. There's no back-and-forth -- ie., dialogue. You got some strange notions of civility that I don't share.<br><br>Mind?<br>Damn RIGHT I mind!<br><br>Larry's take on the protest was a porto-potty contest that the protestors could never win so they should just give-up and go-home.<br><br>Oh yeah, he's a real sharp feller.<br>(That was X-treme sarcasm).<br>Starman <p></p><i></i>
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Re: dear chiggerbit

Postby ZeroHaven » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:05 am

If you know what was going through the man's head.. please share it. Some of us still need the dummies version, and can only learn by example.<br><br>I spewed back a few points earlier in this thread..<br>The man has a narrow view of his life and place in this world. That view cannot be judged as good or bad, only indifferent. <br><br>He does not realize his tax dollars are being spent to pay for Jewish 'settlers' to give up homes they shouldn't be in. He is proud that his appointed leaders follow the bible to the letter of the word:<br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.awitness.org/bloody/behead_child.jpg" target="top">"Kill every little boy."</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> Numbers 31:7<br>"<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.denverspiritualcommunity.org/AmericanFreePress/DeformedIraqBaby.gif" target="top">Kill all the infants and suckling babies</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->." 1 Samuel 15:3 <br><br>What is there to listen to? To live the simple life of working the land and not worry about what's going on?<br>I didn't worry about any of it before myself. I was living a reasonably normal happy existence and was glad that the government had only a transparent impact on my life.<br>Then, the year 2000 rolled around and suddenly I found that many of my basic freedoms were starting to get stripped away. As I was wondering 'what are they going to do next' we had the [obviously manufactured] tragedy. I woke up from complacency.. Mr. Mattlage hasn't, and probably never will as long as people just stay off his land and let him kill all the wildlife he wants. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>
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Re: ?

Postby chiggerbit » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:05 am

It isn't about civility, Starman, it is about not giving the pro-war people a platform. It will take so little to have the whole vigil explode in the protestors faces, turning it from a loss for the hawks to a great big win. That saying about a person's home being their castle is serious shit to the people of this country. The whole eminent domain issue recently in the Supreme Court is still simmering. The right could so easily have melded Larry's concerns into a land rights issue. If many of the people at the camp exhibit your brand of arrogance, we are lost. Thank heavens for stupid wringers like the dumb fuck who ran over the crosses.<br><br>The point to be made here is that the vigil should not be about preaching to the choir, it SHOULD be about changing minds. You don't seem to have a clue to how good the right is at hijacking an issue. You also don't seem to have a clue to how people in red states think. Keep in mind how fast Dean's camapaign went down the toilet with the scream. It isn't enough to be polite, it is essential that the group be savvy.<br><br>Hopefully this is a moot issue, now. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ?

Postby chiggerbit » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:11 am

Not an unreasonable attitude.<br><br>"Mr. Mattlage: When they first came out here, I was sympathetic to their cause, right. They as American citizens have a right to march to protest. It is like this—it’s like having company, if you have your brother-in-law at your house for five days, wouldn’t it start stinking after a while. You are ready for him to go home, aren’t you? Five weeks of this is too much. We live here. It’s our community. Apparently we have no respect over here and we have no respect over here. Somebody has got to get together and clear it out. It’s a damn shame. The news media has got to solve this dilemma. But we got a dilemma here. We got a battle of the porta-potties. You all got started out going to the bathroom in a five gallon bucket. Then they moved one porta-pottie in here. No we got two porta-potties. And now we have three and if this keeps up, it will be all the way down the road. And they’ve got more porta-potties over there (pointing at the Bush ranch). The only one winning here is the one cleaning the porta-potties."<br> <p></p><i></i>
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.

Postby proldic » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:07 pm

" ...What disturbs me in thinking about all of this is George Bush really want this going on because that’s probably helping his effort in the war. I don’t know strategy, okay. Maybe it is..." <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ?

Postby Sweejak » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:12 pm

I understand his displeasure and his concers ought to be listened to and addressed, but when taken on only a slightly larger view this is just silly.<br><br>Where is the beef? Cows shit all over his fields, W pees on everybody. Camp Casey is not on his property, they're not shitting on his fields, the health dept folks were out there and couldn't find any violations ...his concerns are trumped, if only by the law. <br><br>Plus it's not an issue anymore since the other Mattlage offered his land for use.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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.

Postby Sweejak » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:17 pm

Prol, i think it is like GDN said, anything we do will be used against us. <p></p><i></i>
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just checking

Postby proldic » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:23 pm

you do know that was Mattledge I quoted, right? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: just checking

Postby Sweejak » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:34 pm

Yes. <p></p><i></i>
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.... giving the prowar people a platform

Postby Starman » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:11 pm

Chiggerbit said:<br><br>"It isn't about civility, Starman, it is about not giving the pro-war people a platform."<br><br>C'mon -- WHATEVER folks actually DO to protest this country's mind-numbing, death-worshipping, abuse-of-power, fraud and corruption, war-mongering and lies and insanity is going to be manipulated, spun and used by the pro-Bush, pro-war, happily-fall-into-line faux-Patriotic crowd. You *seem* to think that folks can actually DO something to shake the system without offending ANYBODY or stepping on toes or making a spectacle that the pro-rightwing gang can jump-on and exploit -- that's simply not realistic when the system has become so fouled-up and resistant to reason and change.<br><br>For Christs-Sake -- the political system is broken, where have you BEEN? The electronic election process is filled with holes and flaws, exploited by the Powers that be to perpetuate their scams, the Democratic party isn't the paety of opposition but a sell-out to the same special interests steering the GOP, politicians and chief law officials are intimidated and afraid to take a controversial stance challenging the extra-legal power and authority of the status-quo, the Federal Government wraps itself in impermeable layers of secrecy and special exemptions in order to remove accountability and regulatory oversight, the bureaucracy ignores the voiced concerns of ordinary people while bending over backwards to accomodate the corporatocracy which it increasingly resembles, creating staged terrorism spectacles to keep the populace distracted and off-balance and as a way to rationalize the stripping of civil rights and the militarization of domestic and foreign policy -- and the media has become a willing accomplice to Federal propaganda. What forums beside public activism and the internet do concerned citizens have left to make themselves heard anymore?<br><br>-- And YOU suggest the anti-war movement should abandon any forum or activity that might POSSIBLY be criticized, because the rightwing can distort it and spin their own message?<br><br>I mean, that seems to be the crux of your *point*, isn't it? Also assuming the anti-war movement is a single cohesive, unified and perfectly-disciplined (and well-funded) entity that acts as a single 'group' -- an assumption at tremendous variance with who the anti-war folks are, and where those on the 'liberal' and 'left' side of the sociopolitical spectrum come from and what they're 'about' -- <br><br>As I think I posted somewhere, the real strength of the war-opposition is the tremendous diversity and individuality of the people protesting the idiocy and backward-thinking of the nation's war-agenda -- The 'movement' is based on individual action and resourcefulness and integrity -- So your prodding and suggestions about what 'they' should do are at-best misdirected, at worst plain unworkable and unrealistic. If you feel so strongly about something, then that should be YOUR guide to action -- The missing component is where YOU fit into this struggle. Lead by example -- self-empowerment and personal initiative is what the anti-war movement is 'based' on -- it's not an official group or organization that can be 'managed' or directed --<br><br>AND-- What really gets me -- For pointing this out, and speaking my mind that I find your position perplexing, I'm 'arrogant'.<br><br>It's the comfortable, insulated ambivalence of the Larry Mattladge's of this nation, that are the biggest impediment to substantial change and progressive reform. They are the self-willed, disconnected elephants forging in the community gardens while the starving villagers either hide in the jungle or mill in the plantation-owners courtyard, vainly imploring the unseen masters garrisoned behind their palace walls, to 'do something!'.<br>But a few villagers have banded together to build strong fences, set-traps and dig diversion-ditches, manufacture spears and special bait-scents to prod the elephants and lure them away -- they're actually DOING something, each driven by their own ideas of the best way but finding common purpose.<br><br>So: Do you see the elephants as a problems, are you working on a solution? Or are you hiding in the jungle, or waiting on the bigwigs to find time to listen to your concerns?<br><br>It seems you're telling the villagers, "Return to your homes, everything will be fine, the market will be full of good things to eat tomorrow, you'll see!"<br><br>And *I'M* the arrogant one, for pointing out this doesn't make sense?<br><br>Yeah, well -- whatever man.<br>Different worlds, eh?<br>Peace and lik dat.<br>Starman <p></p><i></i>
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Re: just checking

Postby Sweejak » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:41 pm

Prol, I'd request that you at least put the name of the person our quoting in your posts. I know, I get sloppy myself. But, for instance if your doing a cut and paste of Jared Israel please don't leave off the "-- Jared Israel" like in the Madsen's Forbidden Truth thread, by the time folks get to the end "Samual Becket Anyone?" I'm sure they think it is you speaking. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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You Go!

Postby GDN01 » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:46 pm

Thanks Starman. I lost my patience trying to get answers to my questions that chigger didn't seem to "hear", and bowed out of this discussion.<br><br>I've lost patience with "you aren't listening" being a response to "I don't agree with you." I can and do listen and hear. That does not mean I have to do what is asked or agree with what is being said. <br><br>I've lost patience with "don't inconvenience anyone" being the expectation of this country when people organize and protest, as if the purpose of everything should be to keep the people comfortable. I find the whole damn war pretty inconvenient, as do the people of Iraq and the families of soldiers deployed. Our inconvenience doesn't seem to count for much.<br><br>I've lost patience with trying to say things that can't be twisted and used "against us" and in the process ending up saying absolutely nothing of value.<br><br>I go back to Camp Casey tomorrow evening for a couple of more days. I'll give updates when I return. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: You Go!

Postby chiggerbit » Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:04 am

Perhaps it would help to stand back and ask what the goal of the Camp Casey protest is. I figure about 30% of the voting population is firmly anti-war, 35% is firmly pro-war, and the remainder goes back and forth. If the protest is just an opportunity for anti-war compatriots to get together to have a pity fest, then fine, go at it. But if, on the other hand, it is to win the hearts and minds of the uncommitted, then it might be appropriate to see yourselves as ambassadors to the cause. One of the consistent problems for lefties for the last thirty years has been the PERCEPTION that they are arrogant, self-righteous, know-it-alls. Presuming that the higher cause of the protest trumps any inconvenience to the land owner only serves to illustrate that perception, and will become a useful too for people like Karl Rove. I agree that the movement needs to stand its ground, but that does not rule out diplomacy. <br><br>It is Cindy's protest, I wonder what she would say her goal is, other than the objective of a meeting with the president. Thankfully, this argument is a moot point. Or is it? <p></p><i></i>
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