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re: Happy Happy Joy Joy

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:53 pm
by Starman
WoW, AnnaLivia!<br><br>Fan-Tas-Tic!<br>That's really awesome.<br>I have a dyed-in-the-wool Republican Bush-supporter<br>Praise-the-Lord-and-Pass-the-Ammunition flag-waving<br>Limbaugh-educated (sic) neighbor, who I've had a few vocal 'disagreements' with, so I can sure relate your tale. Sounds like you sure were inspired to speak the truth and forge a dynamic connection -- How great!<br><br>What a wonderful example of how the Camp Casey phenomonon of provoking a too-long-restrained and co-opted dialogue is taking flight across the nation, providing a focus and forum opportunity for folks to seriously listen to and learn from each other. Amazing-but-not-really, that your neighbor didn't know about the long links connecting the Bush dynasty to profitting from Hitler's War Empire. That's gotta be one of the most closest-kept non-secrets, showing to what outrageous extent the American people have been deliberately kept in a don't-know mode by a satrap, co-opted media/press.<br><br>Decades of ignorance won't vanish anytime soon, even WITH a massive 'get-out-the-Know' program of self-empowerment and education re: true facts of America's more ignoble history at cross-purposes to claimed values and ideals.<br><br>Wake-uP! the business-as-usual slumbering Serfs who serve the Warmongers.<br>and:<br>Keep Hope ALIVE!<br><br>Peace, y'all.<br>Starman<br>Oh, and stay High on Life! <p></p><i></i>


PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:29 pm
by AnnaLivia
As we say here in Ioway, Sweejak, “You betcha”. I’m humbled to be asked. Run with it, Sweets.<br><br>Thanks, heath7. I gotta give the credit to Mrs. Neighbor on this. She surely received a lot of new and confounding information with a great grace. I can assure you this disturbed her world, yet we hung up that phone feeling closer to each other by far.<br><br>And I am so thankful…so very grateful…that I have had the luxury to read and study all that I have these past years since my own awakening. I have worked very hard indeed, with no pay, but damn if I didn’t just get paid back in spades.<br><br>Will check in again later (yes, I’m STILL trying to make that flyer excellent and yes, my kindest friends describe me as “moving at a very deliberate pace”). But I wanted to add that someone should collect photos of Camp Caseys from around the country, and get them up on the web. Anybody seen that happening?<br><br>Later, I’ll see if I can’t get a pic of my own camp taken and submitted for here.<br> <p></p><i></i>


PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:25 pm
by Starman
Well, Sheee-it -- I'm doggone impressed how far-afield you can spin your thoughts and let them fly when there's no limit placed on tying them to anything actually said.<br><br>"in my opinion, displaying a sense of magnaminity and generosity is rarely a bad idea. Among other things, you'd be helping to neutralize the arguments that the protestors are acting self-indulgently and nconsiderately...considering that that's the only argument that Bush supporters can deliver to those presently wavering on the issue, I think that offering a measure of compensation for the inconvenience would leave them basically disarmed."<br><br>Ahm-hu -- I can and do reasonably agree, magnaminity and generosity are rarely bad ideas -- I just happen to disagree that it would actually accomplish anything.<br><br>Re: Offering a measure of compensation: That assumes the offer is even publicized and given a coupla column-inches or a 15-second newscam blurb. Even worse, it assumes that hard-core Bush/War supporters would interpret such a gesture as redeeming who, to a LOT of them, are nothing but dirt-sucking anti-American traitors -- Have you seen THIS?<br>Photo of Counter-demonstrator protesting Camp Casey<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href=""></a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I doubt the pro-war, pro-Bush counter-demostrator bunch would be moved in the least, but likely spin an offer of compensation as, 'Oh look those Liberal Yankee scum thought they could 'buy' some good publicity by giving Larry a coupla thousand bucks -- Imagine that, as if they could make themselves decent and God-fearing, and everything all-RIGHT so easily by just spreading some of their commie-and-dope-tainted Cambridge dirty-money around!!' <br><br>IMAGINE the 2nd-cutting hay Rush or Hannity or O'Reilly could make with this new ammo: "Sheehan Anti-Bush Group tries to Bribe Texan property-owner Larry Mattladge for causing him stress, mental anguish and damages", "Sheehan Gang offers cash-settlement for damages and threats!" -- but NATURALLY Larry wouldn't touch it. C'mon, you KNOW the rabid, diehard Daddy WarBush/War is GREEEAT! cheerleading crew will spin WHATEVER happens at Camp Casey as damaging to American Values and another sign of Liberal Leftist propaganda. So your first reason why they oughtta pay-off Larry, so they can count a valuable PR coup, is pretty flawed. The fence-sitters and undecideds aren't IMO gonna be persuaded by such an incidental trifle -- they're gonna have to connect with the issues on a deeper level (methinks) -- and at that intensely personal level, is ONLY where they'll be more true to themselves and consistent and perhaps deeply committed to the cause for world peace and alternative solutions to war-mongering and violence and injustices. It's the larger issue that has to resonate -- trying to placate everyone with the most trivial gripes is hardly a viable strategy.<br><br>Now I don't have any personal information that an offer has or hasn't been made -- I was commenting on my impression of inappropriateness, in that Larry used his 15-minutes of fame to disparage the folks at Camp Casey-- even tho from the reports I've read of participants and newspeople and the on-site sherrifs, the folks at Camp Casey have always acted on their best behavior, with the highest regard for all and making every effort to minimize problems and to comply with the regs. and guidelines established by the local Law and various health and safety folks. I can readily imagine that the news-people have created the biggest nuisance and disturbance of everybody, from reports that during the march they walked on the road while Sheehan and her supporters were required to walk in the steeply-banked ditch, and that at the camp they had to be repeatedly told not to park with their wheels on any portion of the roadway or on private property -- they either didn't 'get' what the basic rules and regs were, or thought they were exempt. Eventually, at least NBC made a deal with Larry for parking, so it isn't like he hasn't been compensated at all. And after all, the news-crews are the only ones at the site making money from what's going on -- the sheriffs are on salary.<br><br>Larry was the one who copped a hostile and intolerant attitude, when (as I posted) after he shot-off his shotgun, he refused to speak with Cindy Sheehan. Whatever respect I might have had for him pretty much evaporated at that show of contempt -- Pretty hard to offer recompense when a person doesn't even have the basic courtesy to speak to you.<br><br>Obviously, I'm not on-site nor am I in-charge of finances, or even in a position to make recommendations. I have high confidence, again from what I've read, that the folks there have an excellant grasp of the situation, and know what's appropriate and doable or desireable. My comment was purely abstract -- I was struck by how preposterous it was to 'solve' the problem of Larry's aggrieved discomfiture by the issue of a cash payment, as if in atonement -- when there's simply no comparison of his annoyance to the incredible, scarcely imagineable suffering and pain and grief and loss of the goddamn stupid, unconscionable war that the Camp Casey folks are protesting. And its scarcely the fault of Cindy or her supporters that they were prohibitted from advancing any further along the road, or that Bush refused to meet with her.<br><br>I was just struck by the incongruity of it, that an offer of generosity to Larry would or could be appropriate considering the larger perspective of the war and what the protest was about, and Larry's part in stressing his OWN inconvenience and annoyance as something more important than what was going on -- how could a cash gift possibly ameliorate what is an incredibly self-absorbed, self-righteous insularity? And what the heck would he be compensated for, ie, actual damages -- broken fences, busted mailbox, tire-tracks, litter, etc.? Oh, he's been 'annoyed'? Shucks, how do you put a price on that?<br><br>"If, on the other hand, you're uninterested in defusing polarization, and in fact relish the opportunity to discomfort the nearby rank and file of the opposition, I suppose it's a lousy idea. Don't get the idea that by doing so, you're discomforting George W. Bush, though. '<br><br>The above is what really got me, prompting me to respond so specifically -- that you'd even suggest I "relish" the opportunity to discomfort the rank-and-file. Oh yeah, that's IT alright -- I stay up late at night and scribble notes on how to better discomfort them. Sure. (eye-roll, etc.) Or that by anything I said had ANYTHING to do with discomforting the Prez. Where in heck did THAT come from? That's too far into the ozone for me to have a clue what you are referring to. I simply don't think that a cash-gratuity is going to defuse polarization. Perhaps that's the core of our disagreement.<br><br>"Bear in mind a couple of things:<br><br>1) the people of Crawford, Texas were there before you came, and they'll be there after you leave. It behooves you to be on your best behavior, even to the point of appearing overly conciliatory, rather than baiting them and escalating hostility.<br><br>2) As a tactic, encampments such as the Crawford camp walk the line of being an "eminent domain intrusion" all their own. I'm simply talking about practical impact on humans in the vicinity, not your rights under the First Amendment.<br><br>Under the circumstances, having the attitude toward the neighboring residents that "if they don't like it, fuck'em" isn't what I'd call a commendable stance. Stand your ground, by all means. The neighbor's offer of accomodations seems to be very fortunate. But don't let your sense of ordinary decency and consideration fail you.<br><br>If you think that such consideration and generosity would be a sign of "weakness" and "spinelessness"- even "hypocrisy"- keep in mind who you sound like. Not to mention who's hands you're playing into."<br>***<br>I don't follow your conclusions at all, esp. that the Camp Casey group AREN'T being on their best behavior -- From indications I've seen and read, they HAVE been. The 'If they don't like it, fuck 'em' attitude is not ANYTHING that I've seen or aware of, and not what my comments were about at all. Also unacknowledged is that the service, hotel/motel and restauranteur businesses are doing a booming trade, with rooms booked into the next town -- an influx of thousands of visitors and news-people is having a big, positive economic impact to the folks in Crawford and surrounding environs -- so its not like there isn't plenty of largesse and generosity already circulating through the community. The picture you've painted of the protesters as self-interested, inconsiderate, or of being indecent -- isn't borne out by ANYTHING I've read -- I simply have a whole 'nother conception of what's going on there. We must have completely different information sources.<br><br>And there's not a single notion that would connect my comments to accomodation and generosity as being 'weak' or spineless. The generosity I was thinking of is of personally connecting and caring, putting oneself on the line as it were for someone else's benefit -- which is the absolute vital ESSENCE of what Sheehan and the Camp Casey group are doing. The whole issue of cash as a substitute for personal caring is another manifestation of vulgar materialism intruding on questions of life and death and decency -- it's a whole 'nother value-system, hardly even relevant to the critical issues surrounding the meaning of Camp Casey and what it hopes to do. And I think, Larry set the tone and drew the line inna sand when he shot-off his gun, knowing it would freak some folks out, and then refused to talk to Cindy. Just said, heck with it, I don't wanna -- so THERE. <br><br>If I were to strip the basis of my position down to the core, it would have to be tied to Larry shooting-off his gun, knowing it would have an effect, and then his refusing to meet with and talk to Cindy. So the crux is -- HOW can you offer a settlement to someone who won't even talk with you? (Send an emmisary? Sorry, in this situation which is really petty, which Larry has manipulated to be all about HIM, I think he's squandered the opportunity of his being owed the benefit-of-doubt and a goodwill gesture. That's simply my own take, and of course not binding on anybody.)<br><br>I think Larry was putting on, for all essential purposes, a grandstand show according to what he thought any self-respecting, law-abiding, gun-toting Texan with a ranching heritage, good-ol'-boy would do in a similiar fix -- he'd by-gosh spout-off about personal rights and guests who outstayed their welcome and the damn-fool idiocy of trying to out-crapper the Commander, and how sometimes ya just gotta jack-one-in-the-chamber and pull the trigger, let the chips fall where they will. <br><br>Well, if you don't see what I was motivated by then you'll probably NEVER understand my point, and there's probably nothing I could say to help you see that. We have different worldviews, I guess. It's like, I see something very sick and twisted and perverse, in the posturing and calculations of Larry, who would seem to be saying something like, "I don't want to talk to these people, I don't care to know what they're about. I'm just tired of them and wish they'd just friggin leave. They should be able to figger out what my getting ready for dove-hunting by shooting my gun is about. I wish my hunting-buddies and other texans would show up on my property so we could all fire-in our guns together. That'd show 'em. Cuz after all, I'm not political. I just want some peace and quiet. I don't care about that war -- I'm not involved in that thing. And I SURE don't wanna talk to that lady who started this whole fool show. But yeah, heck, I think I deserve a bonus for the mental anguish I've suffered from this ordeal of traffic and pedestrians and nosy news people and parking along my fence and noise and aggravation and all."<br><br>Wiser, smarter heads than I are in a position to make these calls there at Camp Casey. Perhaps it would be appropriate for the folks there to set-up a collection pail and take donations so they could kick-it to Larry as a Peace Offering. So alright -- If this is such a good idea, why don't you ACT on it -- go ahead, e-mail the suggestion and phone it in, starting the Larry Mattladge fund with your own donation. I'll pledge a buck. Maybe start a PayPal account in Larry's name, eh?<br>Starman<br> <p></p><i></i>

Re: RobertReed

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:22 pm
by robertdreed
That's about as reasonable a counterpoint as anyone could possibly offer me, Starman.<br><br><br>It appears that Ms. Sheehan and her supporters have their minds straight about how to behave. And the "news cycle" has moved on beyond Mr.Mattlage. <br><br>So I'll just leave it at that. <p></p><i></i>


PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:51 am
by AnnaLivia
Camp Casey is being serenaded tonight.<br><br>Beneath the full moon the perfect breeze is cool and refreshing the chorus of tree frogs and crickets who are filling the soft dark with song, entertaining the passing clouds while the flowers sleep.<br><br>And I am thinking…of Casey.<br><br>And of Chase. And of all those ones whose names I will never know, mind you including the Iraqis, whose lives have been taken for…tell me what defendable reason.<br><br>The creature choir is doing a little number now called<br> <br>“Does anything make us sadder than life cut short?”<br> <p></p><i></i>

the war pres

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:54 pm
by dbeach
<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href=""></a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>

tiger by the tail

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:43 pm
by AnnaLivia
exxxxcellent, dbeach!<br><br>what gives Cindy such power is that she is the one thing most sacred in america and the very hardest thing bush could go up against.....the mother of a slain man who served in their military.<br><br>motherhood. what stirs the heart like motherhood? and nobly-intended service to your fellow citizens. what stirs the heart like a brave example? <br><br>i can't see how we could find a stronger stick to hit bushco with. heck, this stick wields itself.<br><br>i have more respect for Cindy Sheehan every moment that passes. <p></p><i></i>

Re: tiger by the tail

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:22 pm
by GDN01
Hi Anna - wanted to tell you how pleased I was to read about your front yard Camp Casey and conversation with your neighbor. Things have been busy here. I'm heading back to Crawford in a few hours. Thank you for doing what you're doing.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

it keeps growing and growing and growing

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:47 pm
by AnnaLivia
GDN01, thank ME? are you kidding? Thank YOU!! you're responsible for there even being a camp in my yard. travel safely, and give Cindy a rib-crushing hug from Iowa, darlin'.<br><br>i took Mrs Neighbor bouquets of beautiful dried flowers from my garden this morning. she wasn't home, but i left a letter and the flowers on her doorstep. i wanted to thank her for the conversation...for listening and not denying what is truly so hard to hear. i wanted to show her that we "peaceniks" are her real friends, real people who care so much. i'm still head-over-heels about what is not such a small step forward, really.<br><br>i emailed with the local president of WILPF, the women's international league for peace and freedom. they had a rally yesterday, in solidarity with Cindy, and when she got home she had an irate phone call on her answering machine. she told me she was thinking of my story with my neighbor, and decided to phone the woman back.<br><br>again, they got past the false divide because she worked at it from a vision of finding that precious common ground, and THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE COFFEE TOGETHER SOON TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION!!<br><br>i don't want to be pie-in-the-sky, but by golly SOMETHING is happening...the former inertia seems vulnerable to me... <p></p><i></i>

Re: tiger by the tail

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:49 pm
by darkbeforedawn
I just got back from the federal building in my town where I made a lone stand out there with my sign "TODAY I AM CINDY SHEEHAN--MR. PRESIDENT WHY DID MY SON DIE" A woman came to me and told me her husband is paralzyed from the waist down in the war. They have him in a special clinic trying to ressurect his legs so they can send him right back. She was sobbing. Another man who said he was a doctor at the vets hospital here in town thanked me and told me there such be thousands of mes standing there. I said thanks. <p></p><i></i>

so touched

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:58 pm
by AnnaLivia
thousands of kisses on the top of your head, darkbeforedawn! <p></p><i></i>

Re: so touched

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:15 pm
by GDN01
wow<br><br>Just wow.<br><br>It is so inspirational to read of your individual acts. In many ways, it takes much more courage to pitch that tent in your own yard, and to stand all alone with a sign, than it does to participate as part of a group.<br><br>If everyone did something - whatever it is they can do. We'd take this country back. <p></p><i></i>

old chinese proverb

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:38 pm
by AnnaLivia
the man who says it can't be done should get out of the way of the man doing it.<br> <p></p><i></i>

re: So touched

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:45 pm
by Starman
Heyia GDNO1:<br><br>You GO! Thanks for what you're doing. If you remember, give Cindy a hug from skye (Starman) in Oregon -- Tell her I'm with her and the Camp in Spirit, and she's in my thoughts and prayers, that I heartily appreciate what she's doing for the sake of speaking Truth to Power and trying to restore a measure of sanity and responsibility back into Government. <br><br>Just give her a hug from me -- She'll know what I mean since it will be from the heart, K?<br><br>Luv-Ya!<br><br>Have a great, safe trip and be well.<br><br>Perhaps you might bring this following point up with discussions down there, as another important point to consider that directly ties to the false pretenses and maneuvering by which the Bush thugs managed to get their fondly-desired war:<br><br>The President (sic!) LIED when he said war with Iraq was a 'last' option -- That's the point that shouldn't be forgotton, There were numerous reports in the world press (but oddly, hardly ANY in the Free Press bastion of the USA) that in the run-up to war top Iraqi officials had accepted everything the US was demanding, in fact or principle, as necessary conditions. (The only real qualification the Iraq officials held-out on was that Saddam be arrested and subject to Iraqi law, with charges laid and evidence provided against him.) There were numerous back-channel attempts at communicating with the State Dept. (and WH IIRC), which US officials repulsed. If more people knew this true story of how the US turned its back on peaceful resolution then the house of cards of America's claim that the war was inevitable, and its posture of moral integrity would come crashing down. That's a blot on this Administration that should NEVER be allowed to be ignored or covered-up.<br><br>Anyway: Peace and Love, Keep ON!<br>Starman <p></p><i></i>

Phoenix of all places...

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:09 pm
by heath7
Last night at least a couple 'vigils' were held in Phoenix. The one I went to had 200-300 people, which was unexpected for me because this is Goldwater country. The crowd looked like one you might find at a ballgame, totally eclectic. It was a riot! It seemed like ALL the cars going by were honking. It was so alive and friendly out there. I got home last night to see a local newscast treat us like we were dogs, but hey, they couldn't ignore us<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src= ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Something in the air. Attitudes are changing. <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=>heath7</A> at: 8/18/05 3:09 pm<br></i>