Holocaust in Iraq

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Holocaust in Iraq

Postby AlicetheCurious » Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:02 am

To think that before the first US invasion of Iraq, that country enjoyed one of the most prosperous, educated and healthy populations in the entire Middle East!!!<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>...Hospitals, their staff and patients have also come under attack from Coalition forces. In the US attack on Fallujah in 2004 the General Hospital was not the place to be for better health and security. Its services and those of clinics throughout the city were obstructed by US Marines with US snipers targeting medical facilities and ambulances.<br><br>Dr Ahmed told Dahr Jamail, "The Americans shot out the lights in the front of our hospital. They prevented doctors from reaching the emergency unit at the hospital, and we quickly began to run out of supplies and much needed medications."<br><br>Dr Rashid who worked in the Juamria Quarter of Fallujah told Dahr Jamail, that the major problem they faced was from US snipers. He told of an incident in which a sniper shot an ambulance driver in the leg. He survived, but a man who came to his rescue was shot and died on the operating table after Dr Rashid had tried to save his life. <br><br>Other hospitals throughout Iraq have reported similar incidents.<br><br>Doctors have also been targeted by death squads and US military at home and in the streets. In September 2005 in the al-Kudat district of Baghdad, a brain-surgeon, Basil Abbas Hassan was travelling to his hospital in the city centre. He drove out of a side street without noticing an American convoy approaching from behind. A US soldier shot him dead. Not many of his friends attended his funeral because so many had already fled from Iraq. (12).<br><br>Do the overworked doctors and medical staff have adequate funding and supplies?<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>DISAPPEARING MEDICAL FUNDS AND SUPPLIES</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>"<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Crimes against health have been committed for two years in my country, and no one knows about them</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->" <br><br>Dr Salam Ismael.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Iraq's hospitals were once the envy of the Middle East. Wealthy businessmen used to fly their relatives in for everything from heart transplants to plastic surgery, and Iraqi specialists travelled the world lecturing about their research. But medical care deteriorated under twelve years of UN sanction, and war and occupation since 2003 have resulted in a further collapse.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>In April 2003, the US awarded Abt Associates Inc, a Massachusetts-based consulting firm, a $43 million contract to improve the Iraqi Ministry of Health and distribute medical supplies throughout the country. At the same time according to a USAID audit, 'medical kits intended for 600 clinics contained damaged or useless equipment.'<br><br>Deputy Minister of Health al-Saffar recently announced that of the 180 health clinics the US hoped to build by the end of December 2005, only four have been completed and none have opened.<br><br>Power supply is a major problem for most Iraqi hospitals. Ahlan Bari, the nurses manager at Yarmouk Teaching Hospital in Baghdad told Dahr Jamail on 8 April 2004, "We had a power outage while someone was undergoing surgery in the operating room, and he died on the table because we had no power for our instruments." Many hospitals do not have fully functioning backup generators because they lack funds to have them repaired. In many cases, spare parts are unavailable.<br><br>Al-Yarmouk, the largest emergency hospital in Baghdad, lacks medicines, disinfectants, surgical requirements, bed sheets, cleaning aids and personnel. A medical aid worker in Basra informed MEDACT that most hospitals there have limited - and in some cases no - supplies of IV fluids, IV cannulae, antibiotics and oxygen.<br><br>Chuwader General Hospital in Sadr City, one of two hospitals covering an area of nearly two million people, has a shortage of most supplies with the lack of potable water the major problem. Chief manager, Dr Qasim al-Nuwesri has said: "of course we have typhoid, cholera, kidney stones but we now even have the very rare Hepatitis Type-E and it has become common in our area". He added that they had not faced these problems before the invasion of 2003. <br><br>Dr Qasim al-Nuwesri also testified that his hospital was short of every medicine. "It is forbidden, but sometimes we have to reuse IV's, even the needles. We have no choice."<br><br>In or out of hospital the most vulnerable victims are the youngest.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>THE CHILDREN</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Iraqi children, says UNICEF, are now dying faster under the Blair and Bush occupation than under Saddam Hussein.<br><br>The children of Iraq are caught up in war for the third time in 20 years. According to UNICEF almost half of the population is under the age of 18. Even before the most recent conflict began, many children were highly vulnerable to disease and malnutrition. One in four children under five years of age is chronically malnourished. One in eight children die before their fifth birthday. <br><br>According to Hayder Hussainy, senior official at the Iraqi Ministry of Health, approximately 50% of Iraqi children suffer from some form of malnourishment and one child in ten is suffering from chronic disease or illness. A UN study in 2005 found that a third of children in southern and central Iraq are malnourished. According to a 2004 Health Ministry study, 'easily treatable conditions such as diarrhoea and respiratory illness account for 70% of deaths among children'. <br><br>"The only things they (Iraqi children) have on their minds are guns, bullets, death and a fear of the US occupation." (Maruan Abdullah, Spokesman for the Association of Psychologists of Iraq.(API) Acccording to API , 'children in Iraq are seriously suffering psychologically with all the insecurity, especially with the fear of kidnappings and explosions.<br><br>The API surveyed over 1,000 children across Iraq and found that '92% of children examined were found to have learning impediments, largely attributable to the current climate of fear and insecurity.' <br><br>Marie Fernandez, a spokeswoman for Vienna-based aid agency Saving Children from War, said that the agency - which has been working with local doctors - has noted a lack of essential supplies, especially intravenous infusions and blood bags. "There's a lack of everything. Children are dying because of bleeding because there are no blood bags available," said Fernandez. "Antibiotics, Pentostam [an antimony compound used in the treatment of parasite infection], special milk for dehydrated children, and almost all medical material for emergency conditions aren't available." <br><br>In Baghdad, Ministry of Health officials say they are struggling to acquire the required medicines, but noted that their efforts were largely impeded by security issues and official corruption. "Because of security problems, it's difficult to have a complete picture of the problem," said senior ministry official Ahmed Saled.<br><br>At the Paediatric Teaching Hospital in the Iskan neighbourhood of Baghdad two or sometimes three children have been crammed into single beds. Sewage leaks onto the floors of the rooms where doctors perform surgery. And the lines to get prescriptions filled stretch outside the doors. Flies hover around beds that smell of wet bandages. And it is not uncommon for blood and other spillage to remain on the floors for hours because antiseptic cleaning supplies are not available. <br><br>In 'UK-controlled' Basra, "there are no official statistics about the number of children who have died since January," said Hassan Abdullah, a senior official in the Basra governorate. "But local health department employees and volunteers from some NGOs have collected information suggesting that in 2006 alone, about 90 children have died as a result of the lack of medicine." According to Abdullah, this is worse than the same period last year, when some 40 children died for similar reasons.<br><br>According to doctors at Basra's Maternity and Child Hospital about 40 children per day had been admitted to the hospital since May 2006, due to high temperatures resulting from poor water quality. "Children between the ages of one and three years are the most affected by problems of dehydration and pneumonia, meningitis, malnutrition and typhoid," said Marie Fenandez. "And some cholera cases have also been reported."<br><br>About 14 to 16 new cancer and leukaemia cases have also been reported among children each month. "It's painful to see so many children dying of cancer as a result of inadequate treatment," said Dr Ali Hashimy, an oncologist at the hospital. "If there was medicine, they would have been saved."<br><br>Specialists also note a disturbing increase of cases of Kala Azar among children, especially at the height of summer and under deteriorating sanitation conditions in Basra. Kala Azar is a potentially fatal disease transmitted by the sandfly parasite that preys on internal organs. "There are about 40 to 50 cases of Kala Azar per month in Basra's Maternity and Child hospital," said Fernandez. "Kala Azar can be completely cured if treated by Pentostam, but it can be fatal without treatment."<br><br>Pentostam has not been available in southern Iraq for several months--not even on the black market, where the drug had been available last year. But Pentosam would be unnecessary if it weren't for the garbage.<br><br>It has recently been reported that in Basra children who play in piles of rotting garbage throughout the city are increasingly suffering from typhoid fever as well as fungal and bacterial skin diseases. Up to 15 children per week come to the Children's Hospital of Basra with diseases related to their contact with accumulated garbage. Dr Hussein Ashayri, clinician at the Children's Hospital of Basra, reports, "some children even eat food found in the garbage, and others usually do not wash their hands after playing with it"<br><br>But the garbage may contain a weapon of mass destruction <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>DEPLETED URANIUM</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>'DU is a crime against God and humanity. It has to be stopped.' <br><br>Major Doug Rokke (21)<br><br>There are accounts that US forces have used illegal weapons in Iraq with eyewitness reports from towns such as Fallujah claiming many people were killed by napalm combined with white phosphorous. This combines to become a sticky gel that burns at 300-350°C (572-662°F), causing fourth degree burnings. The chemicals react with the water in human cells. Clothes stay intact, but the affected skin burns to the bone. Since these chemicals react with water, the effect worsens when you pour water on it. The only means to stop the burning is by smothering it with mud. <br><br>Without 'independent' media reports from affected areas of Iraq it is difficult to find out the extent of such war crimes, but on one such crime the evidence is available and it is stark and shocking. This is the use of depleted uranium weapons which have an immediate and long-term affect on public health.<br><br>"DU will remain part of our arsenal for the foreseeable future because we have a duty to provide our troops with the best available equipment with which to protect themselves and succeed in conflict" Sec of State for Defence Geoff Hoon, March 2003<br><br>The BBC reported on 24 April 2003 that "The MoD could give no figure for the amount of DU used in Iraq: one unconfirmed estimate suggests the total could be about 1,500 tons, five times more than was used in the 1991 Gulf war. Two hundred tonnes of radioactive material were fired by invading US forces into buildings, homes, streets and gardens in Baghdad alone and it is believed much more has been used across the rest of the country. <br><br>Because of its hardness it is used as armour plating for tanks and 23 weapon systems are now suspected of using uranium warheads, including cruise missiles, bunker busting bombs, small smart bombs, and cluster bombs.<br><br>Depleted uranium (DU) is the waste product from the process of enriching uranium ore for use in nuclear weapons and nuclear reactors. Like other heavy metals such as lead, it is chemically toxic but it is also an alpha particle emitter with a radioactive -half-life of 4.5 billion years. In the words of The US Army Environmental Policy Institute: "DU is a low-level radioactive waste, and, therefore must be disposed of in a licensed repository. <br><br>DU is extremely dense, pyrophoric, cheap, available in huge quantities; and used in kinetic energy penetrators (rods of solid metal shot from guns). Kinetic energy penetrators do not explode but fragment and burn through armour due to the pyrophoric nature of uranium metal and the extreme flash temperatures generated on impact. When a DU shell hits a hard surface target, it burns at 10,000ºC. 30% of the shell fragments into shrapnel with the remaining 70% vaporising into three different and highly-toxic oxides, including uranium oxide. A target hit by a DU shell is left covered in black dust, whilst much of it remains suspended in the air and is subject to the whims of wind and weather. If this radioactive vapour is inhaled, it can mutate 35% of cells in surrounding tissue.<br><br>The impact of one 120mm DU shell fired from an American Abrams tank creates between 900 and 3,400 grams (roughly 2 to 7 pounds) of uranium oxide dust. 52 to 83% of those respirable size particles are insoluble in lung fluids.<br><br>Respirable size particles (less than 5 microns in diameter) are easily inhaled or ingested. Insoluble particles may remain in the lungs or other organs for years. The emission of predominantly Alpha as well as Beta and Gamma radiation from these particles and debris will persist for the life of the planet, not only in target areas but also wherever they are carried by winds. The particles can remain suspended in the earth's atmosphere for months and travel vast distances.<br><br>Internalised DU may cause kidney damage, cancers of the lung and bone, non-malignant respiratory disease, skin disorders, neurocognitive disorders, chromosomal damage, and birth defects, immune deficiency syndromes, rare kidney and bowel diseases. Children are born with genetic defects, moderate to severe deformities, rare illnesses and develop cancers very young. <br><br>"This (DU use as a 'weapon') has caused a health crisis that has affected almost a third of a million people (in Iraq)"(Dr Ahmad Hardan, scientific adviser to the World Health Organisation) He adds that women as young as 35 are developing breast cancer and sterility among men has increased tenfold.<br><br>Dr Hardan has stated that one of the worst affected areas is in Basra and surrounding area and that if the experience of Basra is played out in the rest of the country, Iraq is looking at an increase of more than 300% in all types of cancer over the next decade. In Basra every form of cancer has jumped up at least 10% with the exception of bone tumours and skin cancer, which have only risen 2.6% and 9.3% respectively. <br><br>Another tragic outcome is the delayed growth of children. Skeletal age comparisons between boys from southern Iraq and boys from Michigan show Iraqi males are 26 months behind in their development by the time they are 12-years-old and girls are almost half a year behind. "The effects of ionising radiation on growth and development are especially significant in the prenatal child", adds Dr Hardan. "Embryonic development is especially affected." <br><br>Three years after the invasion of Iraq it is very hard to estimate the exact situation because all barriers have been placed in the way of those who want to find out. "I arranged for a delegation from Japan's Hiroshima hospital to come and share their expertise in the radiological related diseases we are likely to face over time," says Dr Hardan. "The delegation told me the Americans had objected and they had decided not to come. "Similarly, a world famous German cancer specialist agreed to come, only to be told later that he would not be given permission to enter Iraq."<br><br>Reporting from Iraq in October 2002, Felicity Arbuthnot, visited the Al Mansour Children's Hospital in Baghdad and spoke to doctors there who told her that slow-motion nuclear weapons had been used on Iraq during the first Gulf War. Cases of child cancers and leukaemias seemed to have a common denominator; they all came from heavily bombarded areas.<br><br>Dr Ali, doctor in charge at the Al Mansour, estimated a fivefold rise in child cancers since the (first) Gulf War: 'though since we are not allowed the scientific facilities to implement a proper investigation and statistical survey, we have no proof.' He told Felicity that between 1978 and 1992 there were two hundred and seventy cancer and leukaemia cases recorded at the Al Mansour. Between November 1992 and 2002 the hospital had recorded 1,714 cases.<br><br>The American and British occupation forces are responsible for:<br><br>* Forbidding any release of statistics related to civilian casualties from use of DU weapons both before and after the war and occupation <br><br>* Refusal to clean up contaminated areas <br><br>* Depriving international agencies and Iraqi researchers the right to conduct full (DU) related exploration programs by US/ UK occupation forces<br><br>These acts are breaches of the Geneva Conventions and represent crimes against humanity because these weapons are causing incalculable harm and suffering to civilians in all contaminated areas.<br><br><br>CONCLUSION<br><br>Tony Blair resisted Clare Short's call (when Secretary of State for International Development) for the United Nations and the Red Crescent to take over civil and humanitarian aid in post-war Iraq. He had already surrendered this role to the Pentagon, the CPA and the Bechtel's and Halliburton's. With the disbandment of the Iraqi Baath administration in contravention of the 1907 Hague Convention, the situation was set up for chaos and corruption.<br><br>....<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/wilson10162006.html">www.counterpunch.org/wilson10162006.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby AlicetheCurious » Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:17 am

Brilliant feature by Naomi Klein, written in 2004, about what happened to Iraq and why:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html">www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby Gouda » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:30 am

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>600,000 dead in Iraq</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> (2.5% of the population) translates to the equivalent of <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>1.7 million Americans</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. Not including the thousands more with a DU death sentence hanging over their heads. The immense social and psychological damage, however, is not quantifiable. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 10/17/06 9:38 am<br></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby erosoplier » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:52 am

Thanks for that Harpers article Alice. It makes the whole thing start to make more sense. 1 tal posted the following quote on the U2 thread but it's just as appropriate here, in the light of that article:<br><br>" And so there is exactly as much suffering and pain in the world as there is interest only in the physical and the material. The scales are held in perfect balance; the one does not outweigh the other -- so many passions and desires on the one side, so much illness and pain on the other."<br>R. Steiner - 1909<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby Dreams End » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:10 pm

the Klein article had a lot of good info. There's a movie that was shown around here but I didn't see it called "Iraq for Sale" that probably speaks of the same things.<br><br>However, her interpretation of events left me confused. Her idea is that radical neocons remade Iraq into what they thought would be a capitalist utopia...totally free markets, no tariffs, etc. <br><br>But neoconservatism is not about that at all. It's about an aggressive foreign policy in the service of the US national interest. The idea of ripping apart social services, dismantling state owned enterprises, etc..that's neoliberalism...and has been the US policy for some time now, though, as she points out, rarely do they get unfettered access to an entire country like that. She even wants to call Milton Friedman a neocon. He is the prototype neoliberal. And so are the most powerful DEMOCRATS...as in Clinton. This kind of thing is exactly the problem with the "blame the neocons" approach.<br><br>I think a basic flaw in the analysis is the belief that government leaders do things for the reason they say they do things. I was actually more in agreement with Alice's previous post about an overall plan of busting Iraq up into three districts. I don't agree that this only serves Israel's interest which I think was the point of that post, but I've assumed for quite awhile this was the plan..mainly because so many government and military folks kept saying they would NEVER do that. <br><br>In any event...I don't see a real neocon or neoliberal agenda at work here. I just see the complete destruction of a country...and I like to operate, Occam's razor like, on the first premise that what they are doing in Iraq is what they intended to do. <br><br>Indeed, Klein even says this:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Looking at the honey billboard, I was also reminded of the most common explanation for what has gone wrong in Iraq, a complaint echoed by everyone from John Kerry to Pat Buchanan: Iraq is mired in blood and deprivation because George W. Bush didn't have “a postwar plan.” The only problem with this theory is that it isn't true. The Bush Administration did have a plan for what it would do after the war; put simply, it was to lay out as much honey as possible, then sit back and wait for the flies.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, I agree they had a plan...but the plan was to destroy the country...or at least, let's operate under that assumption till we hear differently. The handy map provided by Gouda showing a tripartite Iraq says more to me about their plans than some mislabeled economic theories. <br><br>She also goes onto talk about how these kids...young people under 25 were put in charge of remaking the economy. A 24 year old was tasked with creating a stock market. Does that sound to you like they were serious about getting the economy to function?<br><br>Then...we get what I thought was going to be a "CIA good/Bush bad" lesson. However, I was pleased to see that neither side comes off too well in her characterization:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>On one side were “the pragmatists,” who favored getting rid of Saddam and his immediate entourage, securing access to oil, and slowly introducing free-market reforms. Many of these exiles were part of the State Department's Future of Iraq Project, which generated a thirteen-volume report on how to restore basic services and transition to democracy after the war. On the other side was the “Year Zero” camp, those who believed that Iraq was so contaminated that it needed to be rubbed out and remade from scratch. The prime advocate of the pragmatic approach was Iyad Allawi, a former high-level Baathist who fell out with Saddam and started working for the CIA. The prime advocate of the Year Zero approach was Ahmad Chalabi, whose hatred of the Iraqi state for expropriating his family's assets during the 1958 revolution ran so deep he longed to see the entire country burned to the ground—everything, that is, but the Oil Ministry, which would be the nucleus of the new Iraq, the cluster of cells from which an entire nation would grow. He called this process “de-Baathification.”<br><br>A parallel battle between pragmatists and true believers was being waged within the Bush Administration. The pragmatists were men like Secretary of State Colin Powell and General Jay Garner, the first U.S. envoy to postwar Iraq. General Garner's plan was straightforward enough: fix the infrastructure, hold quick and dirty elections, leave the shock therapy to the International Monetary Fund, and concentrate on securing U.S. military bases on the model of the Philippines. “I think we should look right now at Iraq as our coaling station in the Middle East,” he told the BBC. He also paraphrased T. E. Lawrence, saying, “It's better for them to do it imperfectly than for us to do it for them perfectly.” On the other side was the usual cast of neoconservatives: Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld (who lauded Bremer's “sweeping reforms” as “some of the most enlightened and inviting tax and investment laws in the free world”), Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, and, perhaps most centrally, Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith. Whereas the State Department had its Future of Iraq report, the neocons had USAID's contract with Bearing Point to remake Iraq's economy: in 108 pages, “privatization” was mentioned no fewer than fifty-one times. To the true believers in the White House, General Garner's plans for postwar Iraq seemed hopelessly unambitious. Why settle for a mere coaling station when you can have a model free market? Why settle for the Philippines when you can have a beacon unto the world? <br><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>But that left me confused about the point... If Garner and the pragmatists simply wanted to "leave the shock therapy to the IMF" (the usual approach) then how is that better than what the neocons did? Or is she saying it's not better...just different? I couldn't sort it out.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>She says further:<br><br>But while the Iraqi resistance has managed to scare off the first wave of corporate raiders, there's little doubt that they will return. Whatever form the next Iraqi government takes—nationalist, Islamist, or free market—it will inherit a shattered nation with a crushing $120 billion debt. Then, as in all poor countries around the world, men in dark blue suits from the IMF will appear at the door, bearing loans and promises of economic boom, provided that certain structural adjustments are made, which will, of course, be rather painful at first but well worth the sacrifice in the end. In fact, the process has already begun: the IMF is poised to approve loans worth $2.5&#8210; $4.25 billion, pending agreement on the conditions. After an endless succession of courageous last stands and far too many lost lives, Iraq will become a poor nation like any other, with politicians determined to introduce policies rejected by the vast majority of the population, and all the imperfect compromises that will entail. The free market will no doubt come to Iraq, but the neoconservative dream of transforming the country into a free-market utopia has already died, a casualty of a greater dream—a second term for George W. Bush.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>But this is what she said would happen anyway under the pragmatists. In other words, I am sure these battles between pragmatists and "year zero" types happened. But what's the significance of that? That the neocons did it quicker? Why does that even matter? <br><br>As best I can tell, she's saying that the pragmatists would also have made Iraq an IMF client state in the finest traditions of neoliberalism...but would have at least gotten the reconstruction done:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The great historical irony of the catastrophe unfolding in Iraq is that the shock-therapy reforms that were supposed to create an economic boom that would rebuild the country have instead fueled a resistance that ultimately made reconstruction impossible.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>It's great information about the unfolding disaster...but I can't help but feel this is yet another one of those pieces getting us to believe that if CIA had been in control all along (via Allawi) things would have been better. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby AlicetheCurious » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:07 pm

DE, as usual, you complicate things so much that nothing makes sense to you anymore. It's really quite simple: the US had no f*cking business sticking its murderous, blood-soaked, greedy fingers in Iraq!!! <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby Dreams End » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:57 pm

Yeah...um Alice...I was reading the article you provided which into a great deal more than that. If you don't want me to read the article...don't post it. She didn't just say that greed was bad...in fact that is not what she said at all..though she surely agrees with that idea. She said not that the neocons were greedy but that they sincerely believed that this unbridled capitalism would create a utopia. <br><br>I argue that they believed no such thing..and that GREED was the motivating factor as all their friends in the military industrial complex were lining up at the trough to feed from the Iraqi carcass. <br><br>Klein argued that there was some kind of difference between the Bush approach and what the Powell/Garner?CIA approach would have resulted in..but best I can tell, that difference has to do with allowing the IMF to do the dirty work. <br><br>I mean...that's what the article is about...you posted the freaking thing.<br><br>Hey, but at least it didn't blame everything on Israel...that's a start. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby AlicetheCurious » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:14 pm

She's not saying that the 'pragmatists' are better, just that they are the real professional flesh-eaters, who soothe and comfort their victims until it's too late, as opposed to the jumped-up neo-con zealots, with their perverted eagerness to use "shock and awe" on their weaker victims.<br><br>In the end, they're both cannibals. And neither have any business being in Iraq (or anywhere else). <p></p><i></i>
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Holocaust in Iraq

Postby elpuma » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:45 pm

Exactly! The problem is, the U.S./Israeli's/Zionists don't like <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>prosperous, educated and healthy 'Arabs' in the entire Middle East<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->, and this is why they favor extremist theocracies! <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby Dreams End » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:38 pm

Alice, we aren't really disagreeing. But you don't find this:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>The great historical irony of the catastrophe unfolding in Iraq is that the shock-therapy reforms that were supposed to create an economic boom that would rebuild the country have instead fueled a resistance that ultimately made reconstruction impossible.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>to hint that if it had been the pragmatists there would not have been a resistance? I think that's exactly what she's saying. It doesn't mean all the info is wrong...is that what you think I"m saying? But it's more of the sort of politics of factional infighting (if that infighting is even real). <br><br>I don't know...I just have this cynical view that the real bad guys are cutting the neocons loose and will proceed with business as usual amidst a huge collective sigh of relief among activists who should know better. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby AlicetheCurious » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:53 am

No, DE, I think Klein is saying that there would have been a resistance movement in either case, but as usual, the harder the punch, the harder the backlash. The more brutal the occupation, the more bloody the rebellion.<br><br>It makes sense. Think of it as two kinds of rape. One, the IMF kind, is more like date rape, where the rapist shows up with flowers, takes the victim somewhere nice and quiet, slips a drug into her drink, and then rapes her while she's unconscious or paralyzed.<br><br>What does she do when she regains consciousness and figures out what has happened to her? If she chooses to do anything, she goes to the hospital, to the police, to the courts, ie, she tries to get justice through "the system". <br><br>Chances are, she won't get it, but she'll be kept busy testifying and providing evidence. Lawyers and well-meaning friends will be giving her conflicting advice about the best way to "handle the case".<br><br>The other kind of rape is violent, brutal and unambiguous. In that case, the victim is fully conscious and will use any means and any weapon at her disposal to fight back. She'll be screaming, she'll be biting, kicking, scratching. If she is angry enough, she will even display an irrational disregard for her own safety in order to inflict the maximum damage on the rapist.<br><br>In the first case, the rapist might have to hire a lawyer and be inconvenienced. <br><br>In the second, he might lose an eye, an ear, or even his life.<br><br>Even though I am saddened beyond belief at the horrors inflicted on Iraq, I think that they have served to wake up a lot of people who were lost in their drug-induced trance, to the true nature of the United States.<br><br>When the US was threatening to invade Iraq, believe it or not, a common view here in Egypt was, "I wish they'd invade us instead." Many naive consumers of US pop culture drank deeply of the American "date rape" drug and believed that America distributed democracy, freedom, fun and prosperity, like jolly Santa Claus with his presents for kiddies all over the world.<br><br>Three years later, the scales have fallen from everybody's eyes. Santa Claus is a vicious predator, his 'presents' are bombs and depleted uranium, his 'elves' are weapons manufacturers, his 'reindeer' are rabid dogs.<br><br>People here used to distinguish between Israel and the US, so it was possible for some to argue that a "closer relationship" with the US was in the Arabs' interest. This view has now become the scarlet letter "A" for "agent of the imperialist US and Israel", its proponents isolated and discredited. <br><br>Much of what used to pass as thoughtful political analysis, now prompts snorts of derision and contempt, if not anger and accusations of treason.<br><br>The US and Israel are now widely perceived as one entity, sometimes pretending to be two, as when the US provided chemical, biological and conventional weapons to its client Iraq, and pushed it to attack Iran, in response to which Israel secretly armed Iran, to keep both countries fighting a costly, bloody and pointless war.<br><br>As for Israel's role in the carnage, I wouldn't be too "relieved" if I were you. <br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020902/vest" target="top">A disproportionate number of hard-core Zionists were instrumental in drawing up and implementing the devastation of Iraq.</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>They say the truth will set you free, and I believe that it will, but it won't be overnight. I think the Arab world is just waking up from the trance it's been in, since WWII ended. <br><br>Israel's recent failure in Lebanon has reversed decades of brainwashing and revitalised the model of resistance that had been buried beneath decades of Arab despair and disillusionment. Condaleezza Rice was correct that those 33 days were the 'birth pangs of a new Middle East', but rather than the US/Israeli paradigm, in which the choice is either to be a collaborator or be crushed, a third alternative was (re)born from the ashes of Lebanon: to fight back, to resist, to "live free or die".<br><br>History only records the dramatic events, not the changes of consciousness that precede them, sometimes decades before they are manifested in a new reality.<br><br>Yet, these changes of consciousness are, in my opinion, the most important factors that will shape the future of our region. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=alicethecurious>AlicetheCurious</A> at: 10/18/06 6:52 am<br></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby Dreams End » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:43 am

Fascinating article, Alice. My thesis has been that the neocons , instead of being a ,driving force for US foreign policy have been PR ploy for hardline action allowing more "moderate" forces not to take the heat. My whole point has been that once the dirty work is done...out go the neocons. This article is an excellent example of this principle. <br><br>First we get this same message....the neocons made the mess but the good guys, Colin Powell and the CIA would not have. As someone living in Egypt, are you not offended by the casting of CIA as good guys or moderates? To see such things in the Nation....but that's a different story.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>Anyone who dissents--be it Colin Powell's State Department, the CIA or career military officers--is committing heresy against articles of faith that effectively hold there is no difference between US and Israeli national security interests, and that the only way to assure continued safety and prosperity for both countries is through hegemony in the Middle East--a hegemony achieved with the traditional cold war recipe of feints, force, clientism and covert action.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>CIA is dissenting? Who ran the torture at Abu Ghraib? Who practices "extraordinary rendition". Exactly how is this disenting?<br><br> But bubbling up from this disinfo theme is some truth...the neocons are a front for the real moneymen:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>"Whenever you see someone identified in print or on TV as being with the Center for Security Policy or JINSA championing a position on the grounds of ideology or principle--which they are unquestionably doing with conviction--you are, nonetheless, not informed that they're also providing a sort of cover for other ideologues who just happen to stand to profit from hewing to the Likudnik and Pax Americana lines," says a veteran intelligence officer. He notes that while the United States has begun a phaseout of civilian aid to Israel that will end by 2007, government policy is to increase military aid by half the amount of civilian aid that's cut each year--which is not only a boon to both the US and Israeli weapons industries but is also crucial to realizing the far right's vision for missile defense and the Middle East.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Now we are starting to get somewhere. Then we see the sorts of folks on Jinsa's board. <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Until the beginning of the current Bush Administration, JINSA's board of advisers included such heavy hitters as Dick Cheney, John Bolton (now Under Secretary of State for Arms Control) and Douglas Feith, the third-highest-ranking executive in the Pentagon. Both Perle and former Director of Central Intelligence James Woolsey, two of the loudest voices in the attack-Iraq chorus, are still on the board, as are such Reagan-era relics as Jeane Kirkpatrick, Eugene Rostow and Ledeen--Oliver North's Iran/contra liaison with the Israelis.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Wait a second....a former CIA director...but that might imply that elements of the CIA actually support....nah...CIA is bravely leading the anti-Zionist charge. <br><br>With people like that, it's no surprise to find this dire warning:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A recent report contends that the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge must be tapped because "the Arab oil-producing states" are countries "with interests inimical to ours," but Israel "stand[s] with us when we need [Israel]," and a US policy of tapping oil under ANWR will "limit [the Arabs'] ability to do damage to either of us."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>So now we have JINSA providing justification for military spending and oil interests. <br><br>It's not some Zionist ideology that is at the heart of JINSA...they take a bunch of retired Generals to Israel and the Generals agitate for more aid. But is it a newfound (the generals are not Jewish) love of Zionism at the heart of the matter? Of course not. You know how most retired generals make money, don't you?<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>However high-minded this might sound, the postservice associations of the letter's signatories--which are almost always left off the organization's website and communiqués--ought to require that the phrase be amended to say "friends don't leave friends on the battlefield, especially when there's business to be done and bucks to be made."<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> Almost every retired officer who sits on JINSA's board of advisers or has participated in its Israel trips or signed a JINSA letter works or has worked with military contractors who do business with the Pentagon and Israel.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>JINSA is simply military-industrial complex PR. And I was happy to see this article point that out.<br><br>Toward the end, the article does say that CSP gets some money from ultra-Zionists...but only names one such source...a guy who makes millions off Israeli settlements. Then it goes back to naming a supporter with military industry interests.<br><br>I wish the Israeli right were not ascendent and throwing in their lot with US military contractors, but, again, despite the article's recognition of the primary role of defense contractors in all this, you have lurking this idea that even Rove could bring in more moderate forces...It seems to say that the primary issue is Gaffney..head of CSP. <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>Though the general agenda put forth by JINSA and CSP continues to be reflected in councils of war, even some of the hawks (including Rumsfeld deputy Paul Wolfowitz) are growing increasingly leery of Israel's settlements policy and Gaffney's relentless support for it. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Maybe the CIA will save us.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In early March Feith vainly attempted to get the CIA to keep former intelligence officers Milt Bearden and Frank Anderson from accepting an invitation to an Afghanistan-related meeting with Defense Secretary Rumsfeld at the Pentagon--not because of what the two might say about Afghanistan, according to sources familiar with the incident, but likely out of fear that Anderson, a veteran Arabist and former chief of the CIA's Near East division, would proffer his views on Iraq (opposed to invading) and Israel-Palestine (a fan of neither Arafat nor Sharon).<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, I don't buy it. Well, I do buy that there really may be a policy fight going on...though I also think that may be fake. But I don't buy that CIA types, and Colin Powell etc have some benign vision for the region. Their vision may be different, but believe me, it is not benign. <br><br>But unless you buy that Rumsfeld is driven by ideology and dewy eyed Zionism, you will understand how to read the last sentence of the piece:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ominously, Rumsfeld's riff gave a ranking Administration official something of a chill: "I realized at that point," he said, "that on settlements--where there are cleavages on the right--Wolfowitz may be to the left of Rumsfeld."<br><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Even some of the neocons are working on carving out some political space for themselves post Rumsfeld, post neocon "hegemony" and post, I still say, US support of Israel. The article pointed out that no civilian aid will go to Israel after 2007, but that military aid will increase. That's certainly consistent with US policy toward all such states we have supported. However, once the housecleaning comes...and the CIA leads us to rational and humane Middle East policy, that aid will be cut as well. <br><br>See, Israel doesn't actually HAVE any oil. Why use Israel as a base for control of the region now that we have Iraq? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby StarmanSkye » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:17 am

DE said,<br>"I don't know...I just have this cynical view that the real bad guys are cutting the neocons loose and will proceed with business as usual amidst a huge collective sigh of relief among activists who should know better."<br><br>Me Too.<br><br>Iraq is a clusterfuck horror atrocity of catastrophic proportions because the REAL economic/political powers, safely anonymous behind their boardroom doors and inner sanctums, deemed it in THEIR best interests.<br><br>ie., Parasitical bloodsucking scum, lowest of the low, on the order of genocidal predators. The politico fools and strutting addlepated Generalisimos and corporate vultures are their handy pawns. It makes e wanna retch.<br><br><br>Alice said:<br>"Three years later, the scales have fallen from everybody's eyes. Santa Claus is a vicious predator, his 'presents' are bombs and depleted uranium, his 'elves' are weapons manufacturers, his 'reindeer' are rabid dogs."<br><br>SHARP, EXcellant metaphor, Alice. I sure appreciate your insights and esp. social perspective re: Egypt. I can see that the US's reckless, idiotic vulgarity, indiscriminate violence and senseless greed-and-power-driven wrath has provoked a long-overdue falling of the scales from people's eyes, to see the real nature of the brutal beast that has hijacked America's best ideals.<br><br>Good Gawd and all that.<br>The plotting puppetmasters behind the curtains need to be pulled down, soonest, before Peace can once again become a pragmatic option.<br><br>Thanks for the article posting.<br>Starman<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby Dreams End » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:17 pm

Continuing with my radical notion that elites do not do things for the reasons they say they do things and the corollary that we can often judge better what the elites meant to do by looking at what they've actually done (umm...or something like that) here's a CNN article showing how the looming civil war is causing people to flee violence. Naturally, they will flee to areas that share their religious or ethnic background:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>On Tuesday the Brookings Institution published a study that found that the displacement of Iraqis, due to sectarian violence, is contributing to the division of Iraq "along religious and ethnic lines."<br><br>"Sunni Arabs have been fleeing to Sunni areas (the displaced group that has grown the most); Shias have been fleeing to Shia areas; Kurds have been fleeing to the northern provinces and Christians to parts of Nineveh province. Formerly mixed towns have become Sunni or Shia," the report said.<br><br>"The displaced consider any chances of returning home slim. They see their displacement as a reflection of deep-seated political divisions in the country."<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/18/iraq.main/index.html">link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Holocaust in Iraq

Postby Gouda » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:39 pm

Why, that just does all the messy federalization and population transfer/elimination work for them. Neat and nifty how that works. Ought to solve the potential problem of administering majority government rule to minority enclaves or cantons within majority zones...by eliminating the minorities. <br><br>Mazin al-Zaidy, a resident of Baquba, sees it right:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Mazin al-Zaidy, a resident of Baquba, said the situation in Diyala province could be the worst in Iraq because people of many ethnicities live in the area. "The MNF and militias concentrate on clearing it of the Arab Sunnis prior to any federalism plan."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ11Ak02.html">www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ11Ak02.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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