Isreal, Halocaust and 911

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Re: Prevention is the cure

Postby Sweejak » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:43 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I now process Moore's F9/11 (Bloodworth-Thompson produced) as "liberal Jewish hollywood" suddenly realizing the way the system, via groups like AET, was going to push the Israeli angle, and then trying to cut them off at the pass w/ the Saudi angle. <br><br>What do you think? <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Well, what was omitted in F-9-11? What was the intent of the omissions? yes F-9-11 pushed the Saudi angle which many thought was one sided.<br><br>What is the Neo-Con myth?<br>Some see that Jews make up a large proportion and conclude "it's the Jews"<br>Some see that Jew's are mentioned and conclude "It can't be the Jews"<br>Which one is illogical?<br>Some don't really care and most of the people in either camp, at least in my experience, think it goes beyond but it often doesn't get beyond because those that say "it can't be the Jews" try to censor, gate keep and otherwise hide facts under the term "anti-semitism". Doing this only raises suspicions.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: How NOT to deal w/ gatekeepers:

Postby survivalnyc » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:56 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>and you sound alot like the good folks on DU or Daily Kos...</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><br>once again, a terrible assesment...<br><br>you asked for "our" thoughts... <br><br>gatekeeper lol...<br><br>hey seventhson, add that to my intelligence file.<br><br><br>shit, i dont agree with Noam Chomsky, the AFP or Michael Moore...<br><br>i think they all fuck up... but i think we all fuck up...<br><br>so my real issue with what you have to say is your attitude towards the OP... this is a forum for people to share ideas, and the OP even admitted they were new to the mix.... so to dismiss folks who are "politically un sophisticated" amounts to saying "i am better than you" which is about as GATEKEEPER as you can possibly get...<br><br>one<br>human?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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To Jeff and others

Postby Seventhson » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:07 pm

This thread has been pretty interesting and I guess Giavanni gets some props for making us dialogue intensely...<br><br>I really do wish that your blog bio had some more background at least to give everything credibility. Really would help surfers get a quick insight to your credibility and integrity...<br><br>Here in the states we do not have much if any knowledge of Frank--- but its reemergence will be, to me, very exciting. So some background on that in the bio would help.I hope to maybe write some for it ... and look forward to it.<br><br>I agree that your philosophy does ring strong in the blog --- but statements like this one (in your reply) would have some power, IMHO, if posted prominently and not buried in a thread.<br><br>Just my perspective as someone who wants all this (RI) all it can be...<br><br>to help transform the world for the better... <p></p><i></i>
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Oh the irony of it all

Postby proldic » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:14 pm

to be pig-piled on a conspiracy board for talking about conspiracies... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: To Jeff and others

Postby survivalnyc » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:14 pm

seventhson, sorry about that intelligence file joke...<br><br>i was being a dick..<br><br>one<br>human? <p></p><i></i>
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911 Truth-seekers signers ...

Postby Starman » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:36 pm

Dreamsend posted:<br><br>"In fact, this list is a great introduction to how incredibly complicated wading through this stuff actually is. Just reading this list made me want to curl up in a little ball in the corner of my room and cry "Mommy make it stop!" <br><br>I've gone a bit afield here...the main topic was anti-Semitism and I veered into how all kinds of unpleasant ideologies misuse or contaminate the kinds of information we seek. Because of that, very genuine seekers...though maybe naive...will find this information, sometimes cynically injected into the debate by masters of disinformation, and become genuinely convinced that here lies the answer. <br><br>Jeez...I think I just depressed myself."<br><br>****<br>OH My Gosh --<br>I couldn't have said it better myself (not that that's sayin' much).<br><br>Damn, overwhelming to say the least -- the apparant issues and semi-hidden agendas and esp. the close confluence with corporate-think institutionalization; SHIT!<br><br>Something that's been ticklin'the back of my mind of late, is the notion that ordinary people of good intentions and decent, truth-and-life affirming ideals who are horrified by the war-and-militarism trends of the neocon and Imperilist/Corporatist/Globalism stripe making hay with the trumped-up cynical and opportunistic scams of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror, don't have much if any of core group organization, solidarity or identity -- nothing to 'match' or counter the thousand-and-one institutions or 'clubs' like the Club of Rome, Bohemian Club, Trilateralists, CFR, Freemasons, Bilderbergers, Illuminatti, IMF, Project for New American Century, Republican 'Pioneers', etc. etc. etc.<br><br>We've 'seen' how social justice, peace, anti-war, progressive-activist and Green-type organizations have been infliltratred or co-opted or trivialized or subverted by change-agents or spies or spooks or agitprop goons or obstructionists and so-forth -- and so there's a great mistrust and sense of malaise that inhibits and frustrates those who like 911 Truth and Justice advocates passionately believe constructive reform of many of our major social and political and economic and policy institutions is crucial -- for all sorts of reasons ranging from stewardship and wise management of the earth environment to empowering local autonomy and dynamic community interdependence, self-actualization, accountability, equity-sharing, intelligent and forward-thinking foreign and domestic policy, constructive and peaceful international relations, diverting war-making resources to improving people's well-being, and on and on.<br><br>I mean, on the one hand there's SO much evidence of really foul, sinister and plain evil associations that are striving and working towards horrid ends, war and global conquest on a fascist model of totalitarian power, in limited-partnership with organized crime cartels, corrupt officials and organizations in incredibly-powerful and influential positions, 'secret' shadow governments, occult-groups (with military ties), hidden Military and Intelligence groups, 'good' and 'bad' terrorists and 'other' Mercenaries/paramilitary forces, warlords, conmen, racketeers, Corporate Goons, semi-respectable clubs and 'private' groups, and so -on -- an amazingly diverse mix of special interests and obligations and agendas that DON'T show much fealty to moral principles or egalitarian ideals that serve ALL people. Look at how the rightwing 'Christian' and Jewish/Islamic fundamentalism has co-opted "God" to incite people towards war and hate and notions of revenge and pre-emptive 'defense' -- making an absolute mockery of religious values and faith.<br><br>Sure, we each have our sense of what is 'right' and true and honorable as we struggle to make sense of this complex world of parapolitics and propaganda and covert-ops and the plotting of Globalists/opportunists/extremists etc. -- But I don't see there's anything near like the dynamic or energizing & organizing principle that the world's horrid/criminal actors in Government and the Corporatocracy have in their special clubs and groups and 'private' members-only associations, all working to their own very-narrowly-defined and exclusive purposes -- as we discuss and debate. Discussion forums and local 'information' clubs and a variety of non-profit and volunteer activist associations are about the best 'we' seem to be capable of -- not that they aren't important. <br><br>I don't think I'm expressing this very well, sorry.<br>To some extent, the power of shared belief, even in something wrong or flawed or untrue, has an enormous potential as an organizing principle, sort-of like the placebo effect --Faith, or call it what you will. It's this abstract unifying strength that occult groups (and others) tap-onto, quite apart whether there's anything actually TO these beliefs -- like the 'power' of spells, which I tend to discount as having a basis mostly if not ONLY in the form of projection, like willing something into existence thru faith -- to some extent, I think we CAN will some things to happen; But this is shaky ground and not central to my point, which is basically the disadvantage people have who object to the abuses and crimes and systems-in-place now as the status-quo of the PTB waging war and essentially making us all victims of their plots and schemes.<br><br>Ah, I hope I didn't mangle that comment too badly. Perhaps someone can run with it or ... ?<br><br>Starman<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Zionists, Illuminati, NWO & The Jewish Conspiracy

Postby Qutb » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:01 pm

It seems to me that the "underground" left is increasingly taking up the vocabulary of the far right - and I mean militia/survivalist/reconstructionist/neo-Nazi far right. I think it started sometime after 9/11, when many people on the left side of the political spectrum who were able to see through the official story realized something was wrong with how the world works, something which perhaps went deeper than they had hitherto suspected. So they started their own personal journey down the rabbit hole, primarily on the web for most people, where you can, as Dreams End points out, type in "911 conspiracy" and find a cottage industry of websites attributing the all-encompassing global conspiracy to the nefarious New World Order or the even more sinister Illuminati. <br><br>Cave! - Hic Dragones. Words are just words. Some mean well, like, say, Alex Jones, who I think is a genuine "concerned citizen", if not very discerning. People have attacked Jones for his alleged anti-semitism and racism, which I think is unfounded. But visit a neo-Nazi website and take a look at what they write - much of it could be virtually cut and pasted from prisonlanet, or even from the Sept. 11 forum on Democratic Underground. It's all about the NWO and the Illuminati and the neo-cons and the Zionists. I see so many people writing about the "NWO", somehow taking for granted that something like that exists (the GHW Bush speech to the UN where he calls for "a new world order" is usually the only proof you need), but evidently without having much of an idea as to what it's supposed to be, exactly. <br><br>So why is this? How did this happen? How did the language of the extreme right, and with it, increasingly, some of its mythology, come to permeate the underground, anti-fascist left? As this is a conspiracy board, and none of us are particularly prone to coincidence theories, let's assume it's not a coincidence.<br><br>As for the neocons, sure, they are there, they occupy key positions within the government, often somewhat behind the scenes (assistant this and deputy that), they're Jewish for the most part, they have an agenda they want to push through. Despite having mostly "behind the scenes" functions, they are very visible. They are the talking heads on Fox pushing the war on terror. They have made it very easy for people to point to the "Zionist" infiltrators in the government who have gotten us into Iraq to protect Israel from Saddam, effectively, supposedly, turning the US military into a tool for Israeli interests. "Former" CIA agents can point to them and say, the problem is those neo-cons, if only we cleansed them from our government, the US of A would be the same old again. <br><br>I'm not saying we shouldn't pay attention to the neo-cons, or that they are unwitting dupes for anyone. I'm saying that it's always a good idea to look for the man behind the curtain. And the neo-cons, wherever else they might be, are not behind the curtain. <br><br>For starters, who groomed them, and helped them into the positions they occupy? They didn't just maneuver themselves into high places without any help. People like Dick Cheney, George Shultz and James Baker, for instance, didn't groom the neocons and help them into important positions in order for them to fulfill some Zionist master plan (Baker was always designated "anti-semite" by the ADL). Part of what they were intended to do was to wrest some of the Jewish electorate away from the Democrats, by being even more pro-Israel than the Democrats, which the Republicans traditionally haven't been (the Mossad made plans to assassinate George Bush senior in Madrid in 1991, according to Victor Ostrovsky, in retaliation for having forced Israel to participate in the peace process, by threatening to withold US loans). Much like Condi is the African-American alibi. That's clearly one reason. Not only the Jewish voters, but naïve centrists who buy the "spreading democracy and freedom" supposed ideological underpinnings of their policy. Like John Loftus, sadly, who see George Bush and the neo-cons as "rebels" in the Republican party.<br><br>But I also think they were meant to provide an element of plausible deniability - "the Jews made us do it". Dubya was elected on a platform of non-interventionism and a <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>humble</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> foreign policy, remember? Then, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>out of the blue</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> comes 9/11, and the neocons take charge, hijack America's foreign policy and lead us to Iraq. That seems to be the dominant narrative now (owing in large part to Woodward's books, I think). The question nobody is asking is, why were the neocons selected to occupy all those prominent positions in the first place, ideally positioned to "hijack" the executive branch once the "new Pearl Harbor" was a fact? Their ideology wasn't a secret, and it was diametrically opposed to Bush's original programme.<br><br>I'm assuming, of course, that the old guard big money oil bidniss Republicans wholeheartedly approve of the neocon policy regarding Iraq and Central Asia - especially Central Asia (where they are currently losing ground to the Russians and the Chinese, a very interesting development). How witting the neocons are about how they are being used is a good question. Personally, I'm still unsure whether they actually believed the "spreading democracy" bullshit. Probably not, perhaps, but a guy like Wolfowitz is dating an Arab feminist and these people used to be liberals (in social issues at least), if not extreme leftists/Trotskyists. The "liberals that have been mugged" thing. Maybe it's not so far from believeing in a permanent Trotskyist world revolution to believing in violent "democratic" revolution in the Middle East. Maybe the neo-cons are really just naïve ideologues, albeit of the extremist sort. Like Jeff has hinted at, maybe they are being played by actors with a very different agenda.<br><br>Now that the Iraq adventure is going badly, people like BFEE insider Brent Scowcraft can come out and say that the war was a bad idea, and that he didn't support it. But Scowcroft, chairman of the American Turkish Council and director of the American Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce (see <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/021805Stanton/021805stanton.html" target="top">this</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> article by John Stanton), is still more of a real insider with the real power in America and the world than any Doug Feith or Lewis Libby (World Bank president Wolfowitz, though, has done alright for himself, he was also on the steering committee of the Bilderberg Club for several years). I'm sure Brent Scowcroft knows how to reap the benefits of a war while diplomatically distancing himself from it. And I'm not talking about just the immediate benefits, like Cheney's Halliburton. Another good example is "Democrat" and Scowcroft's colleague in the US Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who among other things was the mentor of Madeleine Albright. He is now very critical of the war and of the *Bush administration, yet he wrote the blueprint for their militaristic, expansionist policy. In his "The Grand Chessboard", from 1997, in which he posits nothing less than the necessity of US domination of "Eurasia". In addition to evoking visions of 1984, the word "Eurasia" makes me think of the Nazi conception of the "Earth Island" - conquering Eurasia was Hitler's dream as well. Brzezisnki may be genuinely dissatisfied with the neocons, but if so, it's only their incompetent implementation of his own project he objects to. (Is Brzezinski Jewish by the way? All I know is that his father was a Polish diplomat).<br><br>Richard Perle seems to me to be the "link" between the neocons and the real power base. A question to the proponents of the "Zionist conspiracy" theory: where do you think Perle's loyalties chiefly lie, in Israel or in the Military-Industrial Complex?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Isreal, Halocaust and 911

Postby heath7 » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:10 pm

This is an amazing thread.<br><br>On a topic that can be so controversial, clearly clearer minds prevail. Robertdreed's first post was... refreshing! I honestly have never heard or read it explained so simply. <br><br>(So then it must be Cubans trying to take over the world)<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Giovanni, be honest with yourself, and hang in there. I'm sure a lot of us have at one time wondered. <p></p><i></i>
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AET and Bolyn

Postby Qutb » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:47 pm

That's an amazing connection there, proldic. Would you happen to have any links about this? The possibility that this "global Zionist conspiracy" fad is more than just an organic outgrowth of the internet CT community is certainly intriguing, and quite probable. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 911 Truth-seekers signers ...

Postby Sweejak » Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:47 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Something that's been ticklin'the back of my mind of late, is the notion that ordinary people of good intentions and decent, truth-and-life affirming ideals who are horrified by the war-and-militarism trends of the neocon and Imperilist/Corporatist/Globalism stripe making hay with the trumped-up cynical and opportunistic scams of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror, don't have much if any of core group organization, solidarity or identity -- nothing to 'match' or counter the thousand-and-one institutions or 'clubs' like the Club of Rome, Bohemian Club, Trilateralists, CFR, Freemasons, Bilderbergers, Illuminatti, IMF, Project for New American Century, Republican 'Pioneers', etc. etc. etc.<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This is a good thing right? I mean that there is no centralized "party' no real leaders either as far as i can see. Should the interest be in changing hearts and minds instead of Parties? Then again maybe that is what the search for a Grand Unified Conspiracy is for. I can't think of a single religion, party or movement that has not been subject to hijacking. A lot of people are seeing the games and looking hard.<br><br>==================<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>t seems to me that the "underground" left is increasingly taking up the vocabulary of the far right - and I mean militia/survivalist/reconstructionist/neo-Nazi far right. I think it started sometime after 9/11, when many people on the left side of the political spectrum who were able to see through the official story realized something was wrong with how the world works, something which perhaps went deeper than they had hitherto suspected. So they started their own personal journey down the rabbit hole, primarily on the web for most people, where you can, as Dreams End points out, type in "911 conspiracy" and find a cottage industry of websites attributing the all-encompassing global conspiracy to the nefarious New World Order or the even more sinister Illuminati. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Yeah I think that is more and more noticeable. But what I'm thinking is that the Left gate has collapsed. I mean when the Democrats went for the war and then submit a candidate that wants to only fight a better war people start to see that this is a game. Those that have the time and inclination go down the rabbit hole.<br><br> I think the left right thing is a imposition on top of what are mostly shared values. I'm not talking about the political science definitions of left and right only the way they are perceived in the US. I don't know how many former "liberals" I know who are now trying to get less dependent on society, are they now "survivalists"? Being in Texas I know a lot of gun totin' "liberals" who are all for a "conservative" interpretation of the 2nd amendment. What about the Right gate collapsing? Aren't there a lot of them who are just as disgusted? The disaffection is the only unifying core value I see. So from my angle it is a odd mix of right and left which doesn't really have a name yet. In fact some of these folks have meetings where you will find hippies, merry pranksters, christian patriots, old Reaganites, anarchists, punks, provos, atheists, socialists, libertarians and a significant number of those that don't know who they are and decide that they don't really care. The right/left differences are mostly a matter of lifestyle choices and they will have fierce debates about some of these things like for instance the Militia where you will have general agreement that yeah, the Swiss system, which I understand was the model for the US, is debated but generally agreed to be a damn good idea. In the end the common disgust of the present situation unites them. Areas of agreement are that they are against CAFTA, FTAA, NAFTA and other similar nation dissolving legal strategies. The belief that the votes were stolen that 9-11 was at the least LIHOP and that there is a NWO, that the Bill of Rights and the Declaration are the paramount American document,( I guess this is why some call this movement Patriot) and that the Supreme Court has no check.<br><br> For instance, locally, the toll road issue brought together the Republican Comptroller Carol Keeten McClellan, (the press secretary's mom), rock bands like Jimmie Vaughn, radio hosts like Alex Jones, Jack Blood, and a whole slew of former Democrats and the other assorted as described above. Also locally the Democratic hangers on are kicking out the old guard and they are very active. I hear this from friends in Tennessee too.<br><br>Where did the right and left originate? Was it always so? Does it mean anything at the level of core values? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Isreal, Halocaust and 911

Postby Sweejak » Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:52 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Richard Perle seems to me to be the "link" between the neocons and the real power base. A question to the proponents of the "Zionist conspiracy" theory: where do you think Perle's loyalties chiefly lie, in Israel or in the Military-Industrial Complex?<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I am not a proponent of a solely Zionist conspiracy although they have been targets for a long time but, about Perle, since he spied for Israel I'd say he is an Israeli firster. <p></p><i></i>
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Another example.

Postby Dreams End » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

This was linked off of "Whatreallyhappened.com" which is always suggesting that he only criticizes Israel, not all Jews. And, as I mentioned, criticizing Israel is certainly fair game. In fact, please do so!<br><br>But check out some of this brilliant analysis:<br><br>we political dissidents keep pointing to the real source of the world's problems today: Jews.<br><br>Or this incredible bit of news:<br><br>And, if America doesn't implode, then I have no doubt but what a somewhat-unified world will put a stop to this rampage of death and destruction in which Frankenstein's monster is engaged. The monster being America, of course and...you knew that Frankenstein is a Jewish name, didn't you? <br><br>Oh, it looks like the author of this post has also written a book! Let's see what it is. <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Oh, Defensive Racism: An Unapologetic Look at Racial Differences.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You can read the rest, and follow the link to his book here:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/columns/small.htm">www.conspiracypenpal.com/.../small.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Now, why do I post this? Not because anti-Semitism is news. But because I got it linked from a site that is rather well trafficked AND because the rest of the article sounds like stuff that could have been written here. <br><br>In fact...and I don't know the author, Edgar Steele, but it actually looks like it is designed specifically to discredit the other ideas he writes about. Ideas most of us share. Maybe not. He could just be an asshole. Actually, I guess it almost makes me feel better to think it might be intentional disinformation than to think that people who share a lot of my views also print this kinda stuff. In fact, one of the reasons I get reluctant to talk to some others about this stuff is that if they do their own searching, they are likely to come across sites like this...discrediting the ideas and, much worse from my ego's point of view...discrediting me. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Getting to the root

Postby proldic » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:24 am

Michael Rivero from Whatreallyhappened is a <br>"former" republican party operative. <p></p><i></i>
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re: AET and Bolyn

Postby proldic » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:31 am

He's listed in their "2003 Choir of Angels" donors list (Washington Report Jan/Feb '04).<br><br>I also note that they seem to have given the whole Al-Arian family jobs. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Another example.

Postby Sweejak » Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:50 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> In fact, one of the reasons I get reluctant to talk to some others about this stuff is that if they do their own searching, they are likely to come across sites like this...discrediting the ideas and, much worse from my ego's point of view...discrediting me. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>True enough, people will use the truth sooner than they will use lies to further an agenda. <br>When I send folks to 'dodgy" sites I ask them to please ask me specifically what I believe If I have not done so already in the e-mail. <p></p><i></i>
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