Isreal, Halocaust and 911

by **robertdreed** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:40 pm

I don't think any nation in Europe lost more Jews to the camps than Poland. That's where most of the camps were located. In most of the countries of Eastern Europe, the Nazis deputized the local thug element to hunt down the Jews. They were often quite enthusiastic to enter what were often still ghettoes, in order to hunt them down and kill them.Much of the initial exterminations were done outside of the camps, the Jews would dig a mass grave, and then they were mowed down by machine gun fire. The locals- mostly the thug element, as I said, drunk and merenary- did most of the shooting. The Nazis- even the SS- weren't up for doing it themselves, especially after a while. A gruesome affair. Which is why they got into deportations, and concentration camps. That and the prison slave labor thing. Also, the ghetto Jews of Eastern Europe tended to trust in metals rather than banks, and had hoards of hard assets, they were an easy cash cow for Nazi plunder. Plunder and murder. I don't doubt that there were Poles who hid Jews. But other times, they handed them over- sometimes under duress, as a conquered people, sometimes eagerly. And in the end, I think most estimates are that at least three times as many Polish Jews died as all the Jews living in Germany in the 1930s. There were only about 200,000 German Jews as the initial scapegoats of the Nazi effort. If there are Jews suing Poland for damages, it's a civil suit. I don't know all the details, and can't comment. Except to say that they have a right to file suits, like anyone else. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 7/27/05 7:56 pm

by **FourthBase** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:47 pm

I'd support suing companies that profited. That goes for the Holocaust, African slavery, etc. But how can you sue a whole people? That kind of indiscriminate punishment of the whole for the sins of a minority is in the same moral realm as the anti-semitism that fed the Holocaust itself. I hope I have the situation wrong. Because that's morally disgusting.

by **robertdreed** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:52 pm

I don't know the details. I can only keep track of so much. The Japanese Nisei and their descendants got around $10 billion from suing the US government for their internment in World War 2, I think that's the figure. US taxpayer money, mostly related to compensation for lost properties and livelihoods. So there are payouts related to such incidents that are outside of the realm of Jewish affairs. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 7/27/05 7:54 pm

by **Seventhson** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:08 pm

I have yet to read todays blog but wanted to weigh in quickly on this one with a thanks for your "warning". I do believe that as RI increases in influence and great minds flock here, the same efforts that have haunted other boards will occur: i.e. there will be infiltrators (often, but not always, with poor spelling and bad grammar) baiting people into supporting ideas which will cause the entire site to be dismissed as "fringe", antiSemitic or just a site for oddballs who believe in reptilian shapeshifters, etc. I do think you and all of us who are sincere need to be alert to the postings of those who attempt to sway the discussions into areas which casual visitors or surfers passing through will view as ludicrous or whackjobbish and never come back. I think this is one function of some disruptors - to keep the site flooded with inanities which will turn people off. It is critical, therefore, for you to do two things - in my humble opinion. I think you need to place a prominent post on the front page of the blog AND the board (but especially the board) which clearly states that your own political philosophy is such that you ALLOW much discussion in the name both of freedom of expression BUT ALSO because you believe that if expression is free, that unworthy ideas and concepts and banal or evil ones will be exposed and defeated by rational discourse. That is not to say that in what I call a war of attritioin on the internet the BFEE does not have the resopurces to keep you constantly flooded with bad actors and poseurs doing all sorts of political shapeshifting and manipulation which will wear down even the best of us and still run the boardas amuck with disinformationsit drivel. That is one reason I am so quick to jump on a thread or poster whose posts seem designed to provoke (as in a provocateur) disinformation and meaningless political tangents and chaos. I may well be wrong, but at least if they are drawn out in one way or another they'll true colors will likely show through at least a bit. Simple simpletons won't hide it much, but real provocateurs will - they are killer... and they likely are on a decent payroll for Halliburton or the NSA or Carlyle (as I believe my own attackers have been based on military email addresses and proximity to corporate warfare centers) so they can keep the bullshit and ruses flowing... Anyway i do thank you for posting this caveat to the new guy. I think it may dissuade others from inanities and crossing the line. My SECOND piece of advice is this: I do wish that you had somewhere handy and up front on your blog a good bio which demonstrates your bona fides. Especially your work as National Affairs Correspondent (?title?) for Frank magazine. It took me a while and I checked you out pretty thoroughly via google etc (after Andy contacted you for me, having read my stuff and my bona fides)before I knew whether to trust you with who I really am and what I really do. BUT the casual surfer who cruises through here will not likely take the time to search "Jeff Wells' and read the history of Frank magazine etc. They may just read an inane or naive post discussing alien reptile shapeshifters or some asshole trumpeting the validity of the "Protocols.." or the IHR neocon Christian horsedung agendas and simply move on assuming that we (RI posters and you specifically) are just too fringe to be taken seriously because we (you) allow discussion of drivel. My point isd that there is a REASON that you allow such broad and varied discussions and that the board and blog permits some exceptionally wild but creative thinking and disussions (and some really sophomoric crap to boot): because YOU feel we need to talk it ALL out and only then will the truth be revealed. DU and KOS and democrats.com and other boards simply boot those they deem too fringey to allow and therfore the debates and disussions are generally choirdirectors preaching to and directing their choirs - a generally very good , but feebley disabled, group of choristers who often ar4e shjot down (as you and I have been repeatedly) for discussing the fringe issues. Your bio prominently placed with a political philosophy for this blog and board MIGHT help retain the casual political surfer who wants MORE than DU or Kos and something less troublesome and unreliableas Rense or LaRouche etc. FINALLY - one of my principal "worries" is that RI gets tagged as a site where antiSemitic thoughts and idealogies are trumpeted without any discretion. I have worked with the Simon Weisenthal Institutue and they have a very thorough list of sites they "Watch" for hate messages. I would hate to see this site and you in particular get tagged because you are so tolerant that you permit the debate - without you at least having an upfront expression of WHY you even permit the debate to occur. In some circles even debating the IHR crowd is deemed to be encouraging and even supporting them. On the other hand there are reams of volumes discrediting such sites and publishers and individuals - with minutiae on many of the fine points and gross ones in the socalled "debate" I just thought that it would serve this site well if you said it all up front. Now maybe yyou have and I need to read the blog entry for today BUT I still think a good bio to show who you are and a statement of philosophy regarding this stuff and your tolerance level (and depth of interest in what many consider way esoteri, obscure and just darn far out and X-File-y) would do a LOT to bolster your position as a political internet genius and visionary (I know I know, but you have to make this stuff SOAR and this might help) and gain readers and posters and influence. If we are to change the world we must do it with pure hearts but also with intelligence and wit. You have all of that, but when all we get on the front page is a short blurb on your kinda steamy looking book, we do NOT get to see the genius the way it could be shown if you laid it all out like the master you are. Some people are just lazy and some are closed minded, and others are just too easily blinkered. You need to get to THEM too as the rest of us are mostly already on the march with you. Peace and an honest thanks. Seventhson

by **Jeff please read this** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:12 am

Wanted a response on my last post, thanks seventhson

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:09 am

Read it. Thanks for the time and thought you put into the post. I don't share your concern that the blog and the board need a statement of my political philosophy. With respect to the blog, my philosophy should be manifest in my posts. And for the board, I'm not interested in putting my stamp on it. So long as the posting guidelines are observed - no hate speech, no counselling violence - I'm happy to let a hundred controversial schools of thought contend. And I'm not wild about the idea of posting a detailed biography (though perhaps I should flesh out my blogger profile some). eFrank is launching in September, and I'll link to it so people get an idea of what else I do. But more than that, I don't see the need. We have a pretty high level of discourse right now, and some very literate and knowledgeable posters, but boards are always in flux. It seems almost every time I've joined one, I've heard talk of the "glory years" (weeks, probably) I just missed. Yet trying to arrest the change would make a board stagnate. Boards have to be allowed to live their life cycles. I'm just learning as I go here, so thanks always, to everyone, for the imput.

by **Sweejak** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:12 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>FINALLY - one of my principal "worries" is that RI gets tagged as a site where antiSemitic thoughts and idealogies are trumpeted without any discretion. I have worked with the Simon Weisenthal Institutue and they have a very thorough list of sites they "Watch" for hate messages. I would hate to see this site and you in particular get tagged because you are so tolerant that you permit the debate - without you at least having an upfront expression of WHY you even permit the debate to occur. <hr></blockquote> Could you please stop trying to direct the boards... and now your warning that we should shut-up because we might be watched! I asked you before to show me where Weber's Russian article was wrong. Here is another one. <a href="http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml">www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml</a>

by **Dreams End** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:46 am

is one of the most frustrating things I encounter in doing my own research. Not only the protocols, but the illuminati. People have quoted Fritz Springmeier on this site, for example (now in jail for armed robbery I believe, to support the charming "Army of God".) Here's a fine quote from Mr. Springmeier: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> In mockery and imitation of God’s 12 tribes, Satan blessed 12 bloodlines. One of these bloodlines was the Ishmaeli bloodline from which a special elite line developed alchemy, assassination techniques, and other occult practices. One bloodline was Egyptian/Celtic/Druidic from which Druidism was developed. One bloodline was in the orient and developed oriental magic. One lineage was from Canaan and the Canaanites. It had the name Astarte, then Astorga, then Ashdor, and then Astor. The tribe of Dan was used as a Judas Iscariot type seed. The royalty of the tribe of Dan have descended down through history as a powefful Satanic bloodline. The 13th or final blood line was copied after God’s royal lineage of Jesus. This was the Satanic House of David with their blood which they believe is not only from the House of David but also from the lineage of Jesus, who they claim had a wife and children. The 13th Satanic bloodline was instilled with the direct seed of Satan so that they would not only carry Christ’s blood--but also the blood of his "brother" Lucifer. <hr></blockquote> In fact, I simply assumed that ALL of the Illuminati business was simply anti-Semitic garbage. I only recently learned that they actually had existed and were fairly widely known...great subject for someone more knowledgeable to follow give us a "primer" on. Time after time I run into this. In general terms it's: There is a conspiracy to turn the world into a socialist one world government. (Cool...so I guess those rich elites will be giving up their vast fortunes?) Communists are actually funded by world bankers. World bankers work for the illuminati. The illuminati are jews. Jews are actually "luciferians". There's even an "interview" floating on the net that I can't find right now, that is a "jew" explaining this last fact. And it is clear he is Jewish because he says "Oy Vey" in the interview. So, see, it has to be real. Okay, can't find that interview..but I originally saw it on Rense.com...but here's Henry Makow (a "non-practicing" jew...though it is clearly obvious he needs practice.) <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The party of revolution and "progress" has been the party of Lucifer. It is backed by influential Jewish Luciferians. "Through the press we have gained the power to influence while remaining ourselves in the shade, " says the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Fry,122). "The goyim have lost the habit of thinking unless prompted by the suggestion of our specialists." (124)<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://www.etherzone.com/2003/mako090803.shtml">www.etherzone.com/2003/mako090803.shtml</a> We have to forgive Makow, however, because if you read his site, he is clearly so terrified of women that he may not be in his right mind. And I grow uncomfortable with the SRA debate, as it so nearly resembles the old blood libel against the Jews. Combine that with the equation of Jews to "Luciferians" and you see what I mean. Search on "luciferian and Jews" and kick back and enjoy a descent into fascist hell. This says nothing about its existence as a phenomenon, but it sure gets adopted as a cause by some scary folks. WE need to be dead honest here about how the sorts of things we look into on this site are used by others. I don't think it's all intentional disinfo either. I think some people connect the dots and to them, the dots ALWAYS form a Star of David. Always. And, if this site gains in popularity, they will come here. In droves. I don't have many solutions. I almost feel the Protocols explanations on this thread should be stickied but that's just a small thing. I think new readers to this site should get a little primer on how much disinfo and misinfo is out there. No one hear claims all the answers, but there are many sites that take this same material, add just a few of their own dots, and voila, yet another proof of Jewish plans for world domination. And if you add to this that there will come intentional provocateurs, ack...it's just tough, that's all. Luckily, there are some extremely bright people here on this site. I think robertdreeds approach of assume first that the poster is misinformed is a good one. I corresponded several times with a person similar to Giovanni in response to a post on my own blog before I gave up. By the way, she was a big fan of "Israel Shamir," allegedly a Jew, who exposes the Jewish conspiracy. Does anyone know anything about him? Add into THAT mix the need to explain that criticizing the government of Israel or even the philosophy of Zionism does not equate to anti-Semitism but can certainly be used by people who do exactly that...well it gets messy. In my view, it also leads to really sloppy thinking. This idea that Israel controls the US rather than the reverse leads to convuluted, Ptolemaic epicycles of wasted effort. Yep, our field of endeavor is ripe with not only anti-Semites, but white supremacists, fascists, disinformation artists, scam artists, provocateurs, police agents, and, most dishearteningly, combinations of all of the above in ways so complicated that it becomes both impossible to untangle and nearly impossible to find good information uncontaminated by their efforts. And even when you see apparently legitimate information on such sites, you are hesitant to be connected to this point of view. Guilt by association. In fact, if I were an "elite" (I was actually, but I kept coming late to meetings, so they kicked me out) and I realized that certain information was beginning to be exposed...I'd expose all of it, in great detail posted on one of these questionable sites. Throw some misinformation into the mix as well and the world is "vaccinated" against the truth. Think I'm exaggerating? Google 9/11 and conspiracy and see what YOU think. Here's a piece by someone I don't know about the signers of the "9/11 Truth Statement." <a href="http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs04/911truthstatement.html">www.questionsquestions.ne...ement.html</a> It's a fascinating and scary summary, even if he does criticize some people I like (such as Howard Zinn, though the criticism is mild.) Of particular interest, for Mike Ruppert fans, is the collection of population reductionists and eugenicists who call for radical population reduction. I was extremely disappointed to see theologian Rosemary Radford Reuther on that list. I haven't verified the quote...but this thing seems pretty well researched. Reuther was helpful as I was attempting to embrace Christianity but finding elements of it to be patriarchal and backward. (As regulars on this site know, I no longer identify as Christian.) In fact, this list is a great introduction to how incredibly complicated wading through this stuff actually is. Just reading this list made me want to curl up in a little ball in the corner of my room and cry "Mommy make it stop!" I've gone a bit afield here...the main topic was anti-Semitism and I veered into how all kinds of unpleasant ideologies misuse or contaminate the kinds of information we seek. Because of that, very genuine seekers...though maybe naive...will find this information, sometimes cynically injected into the debate by masters of disinformation, and become genuinely convinced that here lies the answer. Jeez...I think I just depressed myself.

by **human** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:19 am

Communists are actually funded by world bankers. World bankers work for the illuminati. The illuminati are jews. Jews are actually "luciferians". i can tell you this much... im from a family of Jewish Communists. and they put their life on the line trying to overthrow this government... is it all a Jewish conspiracy? of course not.... are there "Jews" involved in the conspiracy? youd be silly to not think so... one human?

by **Sweejak** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:31 am

Well, Makow changes, I think he is searching too and changes as he learns. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Like blind men examining an elephant, we attribute this conspiracy to Jews, Illuminati, Vatican, Jesuits, Freemasons, Black Nobility, and Bildersbergs etc. The real villains are at the heart of our economic and cultural life. They are the dynastic families who own the Bank of England, the US Federal Reserve and associated cartels. They also control the World Bank and IMF and most of the world's Intelligence agencies. <hr></blockquote> Questionsquestions is probably one of best out there and surely illustrates the difficulty that your talking about. How do you prove intent though? You just have to make up your own mind and keep it open.

by **human** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:35 am

btw.... the protocols are pretty fucking brilliant to be a complete forgery..... they make sense when read in the fashion of Bill Cooper.. as a Masonic text.. one human?

by **FourthBase** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:51 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Japanese Nisei and their descendants got around $10 billion from suing the US government for their internment in World War 2, I think that's the figure. US taxpayer money, mostly related to compensation for lost properties and livelihoods. So there are payouts related to such incidents that are outside of the realm of Jewish affairs.<hr></blockquote> Well, if the treatment of Jews in Poland was similarly the official policy of the Polish government, then I'd support their lawsuit. As long as there is a statute of limitations, something based on who is still alive. e.g., I don't think African Americans should be allowed to sue the government for restitution, but if there are corporations that profited from slavery and still exist, then by all means sue them.

by **proldic** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:56 am

Instead of throwing up our hands in despair over the fact that the intel orgs have infiltrated literally everything, I think we need to realize how we are still very powerful people, and at least some of us are still in a very good place to try to fight that, at least those of us who are not philosophically prevented from making value judgements when it comes to politics. I'm not too worried about the Giovanni's, anyone with 1/2 a brain could see where he's at, and anyone with 1/2 their heart in the right place wouldn't be wasting their breath trying to "educate" him, considering the crucial nature of the battles facing us. If folks have the time to take on every one of those type of out-and-out racists as a "project" when they come along, well then I think that maybe they might be spending their time more effectively, but that's just me. One way to prevent them from forming their sick take on the world is by revealing the level of covert propaganda that supports those ideas on an overt level. And that's what I think we should be more concerned about right now. Let's figure out how these ideas are being pushed to more intelligent and politically-sophisticated folks. I see it here on this board. A lot of folks are in deep wormholes trying to construct a view based around what I believe is largely their (unconscious) underlying racism (and you could also posit a psychological explanation for lots of that in terms of how people process the enormity of the conspiracy, seeking to blame scapegoats. It's as old as the hills). So it's not the open Nazis that are the biggest threat (except to a otherwise-active person's time and energy), it's the covert Nazis - and specifically the role of the "neocon mythology" that is everywhere and growing bigger every day I turn on my computer. Just a few of many examples: I see movies like MEF's "Hijacking Catastrophe" (which is based around the neo-con myth) being shown on PBS all over the country now. I note Chomsky's huge role in legitimizing this false view of Zionist power, with his whole career. I already brought up the role of some of these high-profile "alt" Nazis, such as Kalle Lasn of adbusters, and Ramsey Clark of IAC/Answer. I think we ought to be calling out those guys more. I think we should be looking at that angle if we want to have any chance of nipping this shit in the bud. One very crypto organization I've studied that has been at the heart of this meme for many years: American Educational Trust, a foundation started by "retired foreign service officers to provide the American public w/ balanced and accurate information concerning US relations w/ the middle eastern states. AET's foreign policy committee has included former US ambassadors,govt. officials, and memebers of congress, including Sen. Fulbright & Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee..". A critical glance at their media, like the widely-distributed "Washington Report on Middle East Affairs", shows them to be a really bad bunch to me. Also maybe a tangent, but in a side note that reveals some of the many links in this interconnecting web of racists, I note that Christopher Bolyn of AFP, a straight up Nazi disinfo org deeply involved in disrupting the 9/11 movement that used to be the Spotlight (for more on their complex relationship w/ the system, see Mark Lane's Plausible Dernial) has links to them, and is a big donor. I now process Moore's F9/11 (Bloodworth-Thompson produced) as "liberal Jewish hollywood" suddenly realizing the way the system, via groups like AET, was going to push the Israeli angle, and then trying to cut them off at the pass w/ the Saudi angle. What do you think?

by **survivalnyc** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:34 pm

what do i think........  Instead of throwing up our hands in despair over the fact that the intel orgs have infiltrated literally everything, delusional. I think we need to realize how we are still very powerful people, okay, i guess i agree with this... and at least some of us are still in a very good place to try to fight that, at least those of us who are not philosophically prevented from making value judgements when it comes to politics. hmm.. sounds iffy... as opposed to whom? I'm not too worried about the Giovanni's, anyone with 1/2 a brain could see where he's at, and anyone with 1/2 their heart in the right place wouldn't be wasting their breath trying to "educate" him, considering the crucial nature of the battles facing us. this is a cold, arrogant statement..... If folks have the time to take on every one of those type of out-and-out racists as a "project" when they come along, well then I think that maybe they might be spending their time more effectively, but that's just me. um, anyone who has the time to post on a message board as much as yourself should refrain from making value judgements such as the one above... One way to prevent them from forming their sick take on the world is by revealing the level of covert propaganda that supports those ideas on an overt level. And that's what I think we should be more concerned about right now. Let's figure out how these ideas are being pushed to more intelligent and politically-sophisticated folks. i honestly dont find you to be politically sophisticated at all. your statements thusfar have been pretty basic, arrogant & wrong. I see it here on this board. A lot of folks are in deep wormholes trying to construct a view based around what I believe is largely their (unconscious) underlying racism (and you could also posit a psychological explanation for lots of that in terms of how people process the enormity of the conspiracy, seeking to blame scapegoats. It's as old as the hills). how can you accuse people of being unconciously racist??? you must live in a bubble. seems to me like it is easy for you to fling that accusation, because really, it's a reflection... So it's not the open Nazis that are the biggest threat (except to a otherwise-active person's time and energy), it's the covert Nazis - and specifically the role of the "neocon mythology" that is everywhere and growing bigger every day I turn on my computer. you gotta be f ing kidding. where do you live??????? so when the NYPD points a gun in my face, i should say "Damn you, Noam Chomsky!!!!!" and then g-d forbid i would point out that Mayor Bloomberg is rich, Jewish, and a piece of shit....... what do i think? well, i think you are on a paranoid loop de loop, with no ideas of substance. (at least in this post) and i think that everybody deserves a few minutes of my time.... one human? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=survivalnyc>survivalnyc</A> at: 7/28/05 10:40 am

by **proldic** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:33 pm

"i think you are on a paranoid loop de loop" Thank you. and you sound alot like the good folks on DU or Daily Kos...

Isreal, Halocaust and 911

Zero Haven...

Suing a population?

lawsuit in Poland

Thanks Jeff.

Kick

Seventhson

Re: Kick

Anti-semitism

jewish communists

Re: Anti-semitism

btw

Re: lawsuit in Poland

Prevention is the cure

Re: Prevention is the cure

How NOT to deal w/ gatekeepers:

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