If 9/11 was MIHOP or LIHOP why do they need torture?

[anotherdrew]

there is not one monolithic "they." the group of people who _know_ LIHOP or MIHOP for a fact would be quite small. The people who are doing the acts are probably three steps away from them. These are ruthless people who've been told:<br>1. "get me info on where the terrorists are so we can kill them"<br>2. "I don't care what it takes, we've got to save American lives!"<br><br>This group probably believes this and are conducting their pathetic torture sessions to try to get semi-non-existent info. There ARE middle-eastern terrorists out there too, just so far they've been made into a far bigger threat than they really are, or at least were, by the LIHOP/MIHOP group. So most of the torture, the CIA stuff and the military stuff, is being done by clueless wonders trying to impress their bosses. <br><br>Other groups active in the torture may be various "specialists" doing what Dreams End was just suggesting.<br><br>Why does/did bush and crew set the stage for the toleration of this? Maybe they didn't realize how far their subordinates would go and have scared themselves now due to the size of the backlash against it, perhaps. Perhaps sometimes when bush is supposed to be at Crawford, he really sneaks down Guantanamo way for some "fun". <br><br>There are many reasons for it, not just one. Also, who says they "need" it, maybe they just "want" it. After all, no-one seems to be able to restrain their exercise of near total power. We need to find a way in the future to never let a government get this out of control again. At best they've never had more than 51% really behind them, yet this has turned into 100% control, all the dems can do basically now is decide when they want to shut the government down. Somehow I fear bush is hoping they will. Would a non-functioning government constitute an "emergency" ? In many minds it would... and bush has only to declare it and it is so... <p></p><i></i>

[michael meiring]

lets play the what if game..<br><br>what if 9/11 was a n inside side job. what if it was me that gave the order to demolosh them buildings, what if i needed some patsies to confess to all manner of mythical crimes which i need patsies and evidence implicating patsies. If i got your goolies hooked up to the electrical power machine and full voltaged ya, im sure you would be confessing to almost anything.<br><br>Hey look theres HMK grey, hook him up boys, now give me a shout when he admits to A) knowing atta, B) providing funding for Al Mossada, c) providing funding for Osama, or D) some other crime to pin on a patsie.<br><br>Ahhh yes so you do admit to being a member of al qaeda, okay switch the machine off and remove from his genitals.<br><br>ever wondered why our politicians dont get hooked up to a polygraph. lol.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Corvidaerex]

Yeah, it's not an either/or thing. At the very least, it has been proven that certain people at the top knew what was going on or got warnings that something big was going down on or around that specific day. (Always amused me how my former mayor Willie Brown got a tip and was silly enough to mention it to the press; shows you right there that the whole "left / right Democrats / Republicans" thing is just kabuki theater to keep people riled up about nonsense.)<br><br>The Cold War threat was heavily exaggerated on both sides to keep the war machine running at a profitable clip, but there were still real spy vs. spy things going on, including torture.<br><br>The seemingly inexplicable torture policy serves several purposes: Americans become desensitized to the abuse or plight of "the enemy," blatantly ignoring the Geneva Convention rules tells other nations that Washington will do whatever it wants whenever it wants, letting this stuff (Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, torture, etc.) hit the Arab world again & again is an efficient way to leave the Muslim masses feeling powerless and scared (the relatively few actual terrorists already fear & hate the USA, but they're still primarily concerned with their own corrupt governments in Egypt, Pakistan, Israel, Palestine, etc.), and Cheney gets to use the "revelations" -- which tend to come from GOP power figures, not some rogue intel people -- as further validation for the invented War On Terror.<br><br>I can't imagine more than a few people held all the pieces to the puzzle before the 9/11 attacks. It is well documented that Cheney and Rumsfeld took specific actions and gave specific orders, and surely Porter Goss and Bob Graham were deeply involved even if they didn't know the whole score. Beyond that, if it ran like any successful conspiracy job, most of those who helped carry out the plot probably believed the "drill" story until it was too late. <br><br>Over time, those figureheads who were stunned by the reality of 9/11 (Bush, etc.) must've been at least partially briefed, which bodes well for eventual disclosure and, one hopes, war crimes trials ending with many executions. If old crippled Nazis can still be put on trial 50 years later, who's to say we won't see such trials of the 9/11 perps in 2010 or 2025?<br><br>Anyway, torture isn't even an "effective" method of interrogation. Under torture, people simply say what their captors want to hear. The Inquisition is an excellent example of torture being useless for getting "the truth." Real-world interrogation is slow & stealthy & ultimately a bargaining exercise. (I have an elderly relative who was a career intelligence officer, and he is *still* brought in to talk to people he turned during the USSR days! I can't imagine what secrets they still hold that would matter, but the agencies maintain lifelong relationships between double-agents and their handlers.) <p></p><i></i>

[slimmouse]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>and also, I have a very disquieting feeling, given the way they torture and the resemblence to other types of reports we see around here, that they may be "programming" folks for various tasks.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Hey DE, we actually agree on something. I think this is a double edged sword. Screw up/ MC the minds of both the victims AND the perps.<br><br> If you want a cloned emotionless killing machine of a soldier, send em to the torture chambers a while, whip em up with patriotic fervour, numerous stimulants, and a free license, and then stand back and watch the fireworks at any given later date of their masters choosing. <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you want a cloned emotionless killing machine of a soldier, send em to the torture chambers a while, whip em up with patriotic fervour, numerous stimulants, and a free license, and then stand back and watch the fireworks at any given later date of their masters choosing<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>sounds familiar ....and true. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8o --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/nerd.gif ALT="8o"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

I've been fairly convinced that the torture (which, as we know, was encouraged and authorized by the Bush/Cheney cult) is a deliberate psyop. <br><br>Let me ask a rhetorical question:<br><br>If you're someone, say a fascistic neocon, who wants to rule the planet and hoard all its resources while building a bigger and bigger war machine to enrich your buddies -- what do you do? You start a war. Not just a simple, colonial war, but an endless, eternal war. Bush has stated outright that the war against Terra will go on for a very long time... lifetimes, in fact.<br><br>So... if you want an eternal war, what do you need? An eternal, self-perpetuating army of "others" to kill. <br><br>The torture is designed to perpetuate the army of "them." Hence the leaked Abu Ghraib photos -- the best recruitment for terrorists I've ever seen. For every person tortured, hundreds of angry, violent warriors are born. Do you think Bush and his fellow cultists aren't aware of the fallout from their policies? They're evil, but they're not stupid. They know that their policies alienate Muslims around the world, turning those hovering on the edge of violence into full-blown jihadists.<br><br>And it helps if you can frame the eternal war as a military crusade (c.f. General Boykin's "my god is bigger than your god" speech). The evangelicals crave the final confrontation because Jesus is gonna come down and swoop them up. Why not accelerate the process by whipping up the infidels?<br><br>An added bonus is the ability to test new and improved methods of mind control, as I've written about:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.charm.net/~profpan/2005/07/sex-drugs-mind-control-and-gitmo.html">www.charm.net/~profpan/20...gitmo.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Even bigwigs in the military admit that torturing a suspect is a poor way to get actionable data. They know it doesn't work.<br><br>But they do know what happens when you torture someone and let them out of the cage. Oh, boy, they know. <p></p><i></i>

[Qutb]

The professor nailed it. <p></p><i></i>

[Homeless Halo]

Experimentation reveals tortured suspects do not neccessarily give you "true" information, but rather will agree to whatever you suggest is true, to relieve themselves.<br><br>This isn't about "information". We don't need information on AQ. We ARE AQ.<br><br>What we NEED are more soldiers to work for our terrorist front organizations. We hurt them, make them hate "us" and then eventually, when the "war" is "over", release them into the waiting arms of militants (also "us") who will train them to fight "us", which they'll be willing and able to do.<br><br>Just a big racket. Pan is right on the mark.<br><br>Aleanor, re: heroin: or we could legalize drugs and the other "consensual" crimes they profit from, regulate and sanitize them. Then we could tax them, and have that money for non-black projects, like, say, feeding hungry people, for instance. Just a thought.<br>(I think the war on drugs is doomed to failure for ever, and no amount of prohibition will ever eliminate the problems, only create more organized crimes and black ops issues)<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

See the thread:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=1890.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...1890.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>More of the Cheney Monster's background re: torture, MKULTRA, and other atrocities. It's a Larouche article, but it's accurate and spot-on. <p></p><i></i>

[anotherdrew]

as for torture itself, there's a lot going on out in the street by us-aligned paramilitaries. they really DRILL people for information. from history we learn that the best way to handle this if ever on the receiving side is to just admit to oneself at the earliest opportunity that once you've fallen into these peoples hands you are dead. If this is "Probably won't be walking away from this" type torture, what has been done in the past is to intentionally bite off the lounge as far back as possible, bleeding to death fairly quickly. at any rat, this was done in the distant past as a response. <p></p><i></i>