Loose Change - a must see

by **Byrne** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:39 am

DE, Re the red hot metal, there is a video <a href="http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/red_hot_ground_zero_low_quality.wmv" target="top">here</a> that is referenced in Prof Steven E. Jones' paper (available <a href="http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html" target="top">here</a>). <img src="http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/hotSlag.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Also, the following from <a href="http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30926" target="top">here</a> Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. & from the article <a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/articles/911memories.htm" target="top">here</a>: They came to help at Ground Zero. What they experienced they can't forget Slowly, the task force won them over. They threaded their fiber-optic cameras down whisker-size cracks probing for signs of life. And their four search dogs worked so hard unearthing cadavers that Turner's Aussie shepherd, Tough, was on the brink of burnout. Turner himself crawled through an opening and down crumpled stairwells to the subway, five levels below ground. He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life. Back on the surface, he knew there had been a breakthrough in trust when he heard a New York firefighter shout, "Hey, we need a yellow shirt over here."  From <a href="http://www.spk.usace.army.mil/cespk-pao/jan-02/jan02-01.html" target="top">here</a>: New York City World Trade Center Disaster Deployment The one word that can be use to describe the scene is AWESOME! The size of everything was enormous. The pile of debris after 30 days of removal operations was still gigantic, over three stories high, with structural steel projecting 7-10 stories into the air. The steam, dust, noise, steel and myriad activities were larger than anything I have ever seen. Temperatures in the pile were over 1,200 °F. Every time an area was opened, fire started in any buried combustible debris. Water trucks and fire engines were used continually. The high temperature debris and water created steam. Dust contained asbestos, silica, metals, molds and mildews. The dust and other hazardous materials from the debris required sprayers to be set up to wash all trucks exiting the site. These sprayers were also used to cool the high temperature debris before it left the site. Several trucks were returned to the site for additional cooling because the law enforcement officers would not let them through the tunnels leaving Manhattan until they stopped steaming.  I agree that evidence is scarce. Perhaps if all the photos taken by <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm17.showMessage?topicID=479.topic" target="top">Kurt Sonnenfeld</a> were released, then we'd be in a position to make a judgement or there would be some proof either way. But that isn't gonna happen as Kurt is in jail & his piccies aren't going to be released to corroborate some madcap (you decide)theory that the towers were brought down by Controlled Demolition.......... <img src="http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/9-11%20Picture7%20(squib1).jpg" style="border:0;"/>Madcap as it is, I believe that CD WAS used. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=byrne@rigorousintuition>Byrne</A> at: 3/31/06 8:47 am

by **FourthBase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:01 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>After completing his duty as one of the only videographer allowed on Ground Zero at the WTC, his wife, Nancy Sonnenfeld, 36, was found dead on New Years Day January 2002. Kurt Sonnenfeld was then arrested for the murder of his wife (although she left a suicide note!?). Only his wife's prints were on the gun, and only her hands had gushot residue. Kurt Sonnenfeld was bound over for trial on a first-degree murder charge, with bond set at $600,000.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Three years later, the charges against him were re-filed because they say they found two convicts he suposedly "confessed to"! He was re-arrested in South America and has been held in prison there for some time.<hr></blockquote> WTF, I didn't even read that the first time. The old "confessed to a convict" trick... Holy shit, if that's not a red flag re: CD...what is? Like Dr. Smith in Memphis, like Dr. Baumgartner in Ohio, like all the microbiologists, like all the JFK witnesses who were beaten or killed, like maybe that kid in Minneapolis...if you don't have access to the money: Follow the casualties. Debunkers like to claim that a conspiracy of this magnitude would be impossible because there'd be too many people you'd have to keep from talking. Well, there are people being kept from talking, either via threats, jail or death.

by **Dreams End** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:40 pm

Byrne, good stuff. I'm a bit confused by the reports, and one is nothing but a headline with no article attached. Indeed, though, there are references to "molten metal dripping". Not sure what metal that is....and I don't know off hand the melting points of other metals that might be encountered. However, the temperature is described in the video as 1500 degrees (not enough to melt steel and consistent with the jet fuel + other burning stuff hypothesis.) Another quote says 1200 degrees. However, I wonder when that video was taken. Haven't read the Jones paper yet so I don't know, but the longer it is after the collapse the more interesting. Not exactly an oxygen rich atmosphere inside all that rubble. The AFP article said "weeks" after. I was intrigued by this due to references to "thermite" as a possible agent for all this. Regular exlosives, of course, would not create molten steel any more than jet fuel would. Therefore, molten metal was of interest. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Although the reactants are stable at room temperature, when they are exposed to sufficient heat to ignite (usually by igniting with a burning magnesium ribbon, but other methods are used as well, such as potassium permanganate and glycerine) they burn with an extremely intense exothermic reaction. The products emerge as liquids due to the high temperatures reached (with iron (III) oxide, up to 2500°C (4500°F)— although the actual temperature reached depends on how quickly heat can escape to the surrounding environment. Thermite contains its own supply of oxygen, and does not require any external source such as air. Consequently, it cannot be smothered and may ignite in any environment, given sufficient initial heat. It will burn just as well while underwater, for example, and cannot even be extinguished with water, as water sprayed on a thermite reaction will instantly be boiled into steam. This, combined with the extremely high temperatures generated, makes thermite reactions extremely hazardous even when appropriate precautions are taken. [edit] Uses The catastrophic effects of thermite demonstrated in the Utah desert Enlarge The catastrophic effects of thermite demonstrated in the Utah desert Thermite reactions have many uses. It was originally used for repair welding in-place such things as locomotive axle-frames where the repair can take place without removing the part from its installed location. Thermite grenades are used in war to destroy sensitive equipment or documents when at imminent risk of capture by the enemy. Thermite grenades and bombs have been used in combat as incendiary devices, able to burn through heavy armor or other fireproof barriers. Thermite can also be used for quickly cutting or welding metal such as rail tracks, without requiring complex or heavy equipment. It also enables infantry to destroy enemy artillery without the use of loud explosive charges and therefore operate with stealth. The mixture has been sold for many years under the trademark name Thermit for use in railroad welding. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite</a> a couple of videos demonstrating linked at the bottom. <hr></blockquote> We have to be careful as sometimes a theory gets put out (like the thermite one) and then folks go cherrypicking evidence to support it. This is what the video does, and despite finding it of interest, I am aware of that. I think Jones talks about the thermite theory. And since that reaction has been used since the 19th century, there may well be others. I'm less impressed with my own analysis of the elevator shaft theory. It occurred to me that if the shaft is relatively airtight, an explosion at the top would force air out the bottom in a pretty explosive way, even if burning fuel didn't reach all the way. Still, the plane would have to breach the elevator shafts (and I'm unclear if this means actual elevator shafts or just that whole hollow inner column), a good deal of fuel would have to enter that shaft and detonate simultanesously. And still, I'm not quite sure why the majority of the force created by the quickly expanding gases from the explosion would go down the shaft rather than out the nearer opening into which the fuel came in the first place. But no matter, because if the second tower also had this lobby destruction, that plane surely hit off center and did not pour fuel down the elevator shaft, so that's why I asked if such damage had been witnessed in the second lobby. And, of course, these are contradictory theories, as you don't need an explosion for to set off the thermite reaction. However, in this video of a thermite reaction, it does have a loud report at the beginning. Watch how it melts steel quickly. <a href="http://www.lemonzoo.com/show.php?c=14819">www.lemonzoo.com/show.php?c=14819</a> (It's a tacky collection of girly videos and "extreme" videos, but this link goes right to the vid in question. And Qutb wants a working theory. Well, that is exactly what all this DOES provide. However, there are different versions but basically bad guys connected to Bush 1. Buy WTC. 2. Set up financial arrangements to benefit from it's destruction. 3. Utilize "al-Qaida" operatives to at least pretend to be training for a hijacking. 4. Use said operatives to steer plane into building (or remote control). 5. Have building prewired with thermite charges (what kind of access could be got to central core? Seems like you could do lots in there without being obvious or getting in people's way. 6. Bush involvement in security company allows operatives to be planted there and in airports also run by this company (not really a big deal that he resigned a year before that...still has access). 7. Planes hit. 8. Charges detonated. It's not even COMPLETELY insane to think that the charges are on remotes and could be set off by floor as desired. In fact, with thermite, you could create a slower acting charge designed to melt, not to "explode".. I greatly distrust the "jones crowd". But I also have a theory that the CIA has either turned on the Rumsfeld/Cheney crowd or set them up all along a la some theories about Watergate and Nixon. So, in that sense, information and "whistleblowing" about 9/11 should not be completely dismissed merely because of the source. However, a competing theory is that there was no CD, but that there was government complicity in nontrivial amounts and CD and the like are intentional red herrings designed to get us off the trail. And given the poor standards of research on many internet sites, this isn't too hard to do. See the "no planes" and pod theories. Given who is putting out these theories, this seems to be a viable theory to me as well. And those of you who are pro CD would do VERY WELL to recognize who these folks are and why some of us distrust them. It's extremely important as it simply reeks of disinfo games. See the above post with a summary about some of those folks. In fact, Qutb, to be even more "waffly", if you wanted to destroy the WTC but there was really no way to do it without clever people suspecting, you would, in fact, get more suspect folks to be the ones to put the theory out first. Mix in "holograms" etc, and you have discredited the theory quite nicely. Thanks for the civil discussions all round, this time.

by **Qutb** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:09 pm

Doesn't aluminum burn hot enough to melt steel? Lots of aluminum in the airplanes. In fact, one of the ingredients in thermite is powdered aluminum.

by **NewKid** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:18 pm

Good comments all. I basically agree. Loose Change 2 is pretty good (especially compared to some of the other 9-11 videos), but could be so much better by avoiding stuff that's not so great they do talk about and bulking up on other stuff. But then, it wasn't my video and we'd all make it differently. The latest oral histories that just got to released are supposed to have more bomb/explosion like testimony, including from supposedly mainstream reporters and stuff. I don't know for sure, and I'm always reluctant to take ear and eyewitness stuff too far, but it's certainly worth looking hard at.

by **chiggerbit** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:35 pm

Qutb, I'm really surprised that you discount the put options as being significant due to the "small" amounts in question. Small, huge, what's the difference? The significance isn't in the dollar amount, the significance is in the deviation from the usual amount of those particular companies being traded. I believe it is clear that it indicates that someone knew. A million here, a million there is not small change to individuals, especially if the individuals may have been government officials on government salaries. But, even more important is the need to identify the individuals involved in order to get to the core of who and how. I've said this over and over--I think the put option trades are the key to the door. Forty plus years from now, most of the players will be dead and people will still be arguing about whether it was MIHOP, just as they do about the grassy knoll. We can argue and argue about LIHOP vs MIHOP and no one will ever solve the crime. But if we could get to the bottom of the put options, it will be the thread that unravels the entire fabric of the official 9/11 story. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 3/31/06 10:36 am

by **sunny** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:11 pm

Qutb- Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job, and if so, why?

by **Iroquois** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:20 pm

Aluminum can burn very hot, but it needs a lot of oxygen mixed in to do so. That's what thermite basically is, aluminum powder mixed with an oxidant like iron oxide and bound together so everything the reaction needs is contained in the compound. That's a condition that one would not expect to happen spontaneously in the WTC fires. The following quote is taken out of context, but supports the point. Please read the full article to understand the particular event they were trying to replicate. URL: <a href="http://www.rps.psu.edu/jan2000/fire.html">www.rps.psu.edu/jan2000/fire.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It took a while for Mench to come across violent energy release in the lab. For a year, another graduate student, Dave Johnson, burned the aluminum in an environment of gaseous oxygen, "the traditional way of testing metal combustion," says Mench. "With gaseous oxygen, you get a relatively slow, regular flame. The aluminum burns at a predictable rate."<hr></blockquote>

by **NewKid** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:32 pm

The notion that people didn't know something was going to happen has been so thoroughly debunked that it really isn't worth talking much about anymore. Read the Thompson timeline to get an idea. So the notion that somebody was manipulating the markets really shouldn't be all that significant to any remotely viable thesis on 9-11. For official story believers, they have to deal with too much in the trading to explain it away and they have to explain all the prior knowledge from everyone in the intelligence communities all the way down to the school children who tell their classrooms the towers are gonna get hit and stay home from school on 9-11. They don't and can't so they just ignore it and say the SEC didn't find anything. For LIHOPers, it looks like something they'd like because it shows prior knowlege or belief that fundamentalist muslims will be doing the attacks. For MIHOPers, it's just part of the pre-911 disinformation and basically a continuation of the Kupferberg thesis about the legend of 9-11. Insider trading could fit either LIHOP or MIHOP and so, yeah it's great in that regard, but those are the only serious contenders anyway, and the trading won't really shed any light on anything once you get beyond the official story.

by **Qutb** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:49 pm

"I believe it is clear that it indicates that someone knew" Of course, but people knew who belonged to the circles known as "al-Qaida". That was my point. I'm sure they know how to operate on financial markets. And I agree we should know who did it, I just doubt it would be a bombshell.

by **Dreams End** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:55 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Doesn't aluminum burn hot enough to melt steel? Lots of aluminum in the airplanes. In fact, one of the ingredients in thermite is powdered aluminum.<hr></blockquote> Well, the point is, how would it get hot enough to "burn" aluminum? There's no theory as far as I know of any chemical reaction getting hotter than the burning of kerosene/jet fuel. Thermite is aluminum plus iron oxide. Aluminum is a highly reactive metal. Because of the combination with the iron oxide, it won't need a separate source of oxygen and can burn in the absence of oxygen. As such, it's not really burning in that sense. You don't "light" it. You need some heat to get it going, but it's a chemical reaction that isn't combustion per se. To say that "aluminum burns" at a particular temp...i'm not sure what you mean. The melting point of aluminum is actually quite low (as the unfortunate owner of a Subaru that had an aluminum engine block, I experienced this first hand) It's, in fact, 660, degrees. Once the thermite reaction begins, you get the Al combining (oxizing) with the O from the Iron Oxide and you are left with molten iron. The other product is Aluminum Oxide and would not even really be noticeable. Might blow away in the wind, even. Aluminum is usually coated with aluminum oxide because aluminum itself IS so reactive. One would like to hope that this includes any aluminum components of planes. Chiggerbit, Qutb did suggest that the put options could have simply been bought by wealthy folks near bin Laden (or even by agents of bin Laden), maybe even some of his own family members. However, when we see that bin Laden's family members also were involved in business dealings with the Bush's (though they had allegedly "disowned" Osama), then we are not put at ease by this fact. At least I'm not. I think that amidst the conspiracy stuff we also need to keep in mind good ole fashion greed and corruption which surely plays a role here. The level of corruption cannot, in my opinion, be underestimated.

by **Qutb** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:59 pm

Sunny - "Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job, and if so, why?" No. I very much doubt it, if you mean "planned and executed from the beginning by US military/intelligence/the Bush administration". It pretty much flies in the face of everything we know (to the extent that we really know anything etc etc). But, as New Kid points out, there's also no doubt that the attack didn't come as a surprise to the US intelligence community. It was well known who most of these people were and that something big was in the works involving hijacked planes used as guided missiles. Many things are suspicious about what was and wasn't done with that knowledge, which could point to US authorities enabling the attacks to succeed. The incompetence must have been extreme, for that to have been all it was.

by JD » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:02 pm

If the put options were purchased by anyone associated with OBL and aQ surely this would have been presented as "proof" in support of the official story? The silence as per the owners of the put options is damning. The other myth of the put options is that no one seemed to know who owned them for the longest time - they were sitting in limbo unclaimed. Poppycock. Just try to open an account at any brokerage anonomously. Can't be done. If it could be done, every corporate insider would be running secret accounts to facilitate insider trading efforts. The system is designed entirely to make this impossible. It was known immediatly who held the accounts, yet the fact that the account holders were known was misrepresented PLUS the actual identity of the account holders has been subsequently with-held. This all smells to high heaven.

by **Qutb** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:05 pm

DE, I read about burning aluminum somewhere but I'd rather not discuss this please, as these are things I know absolutely nothing about. I just threw it out there in case someone else did.

by **Qutb** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If the put options were purchased by anyone associated with OBL and aQ surely this would have been presented as "proof" in support of the official story?<hr></blockquote> That would depend on who these associates were I suppose.

Loose Change - a must see

Re: Jet fuel down the shaft

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