"9/11 = Inside Job" is all good regardless

[stickdog99]

Let me try again. My point is simple:<br><br>Any informed and intelligent individual with liberal, progressive or libertarian leanings (1) needs to come to terms with the fact that rationally questioning the official 9/11 narrative serves his greater political purposes because the tremendous harm done in the name of the official 9/11 narrative <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>FAR, FAR</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> outweighs the good. <br><br>By the same token, it's politically counterproductive for any civil libertarian or anti-imperialist or anti-plutocrat to go around actively defending the official 9/11 narrative against rational questioning. Got it?<br><br><br><br><br>parenthetical #1 = (whether he believes that the official narrative of 9/11 covers up MIHOP, LIHOP, criminal negligence or even just embarrassing incompetence) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=stickdog99>stickdog99</A> at: 4/14/06 6:47 am<br></i>

[Qutb]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is no such thing as Islamic terror.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This is the kind of lunacy I won't have anything to do with. I refuse to be on the side of those who feel they have the right to make up the facts as they go along to fit neatly and tidyly into their political belief system.<br><br>To the original poster, criticizing how 9/11 has been exploited by the administration - and refusing to accept that it "changed everything" - is not the same as making up all kinds of crazy shit about the event.<br><br>Personally, I think a reasonable program which a broad popular movement might be able to get behind would be impeachment of the president for criminal negligence leading up to the attacks. I'm starting to think that speculating beyond that is useless, as far as the administration's role is concerned. Criminal negligence can be proved, and should in itself be enough to constitute "high crimes and misdemeanor". I mean, if lying about receiving a blowjob was. <br><br>It can also be proved that the administration deceived Congress and the American public regarding the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>casus belli</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> for the Iraq war. That's ground for impeachment in itself. At this point the fruitfulness of speculating wildly about every little perceived anomaly in the photographic evidence or inconsistency in press reports about 9/11 is approaching zero. <p></p><i></i>

[darkbeforedawn]

Qutb speaks as if the 9-11 truth movement are the main people "making up facts" as they go along. Our newspapers and media seem to have assumed that role. Look at the last two "elections" and the brohawhaw over "weapons of mass destruction". They are clearly a controlled arm of the government. Most truth activists are working with evidence that has been hidden and/or destroyed. They are piecing bits and shards together and working towards truth--a truth denied to us by our government and supposed "free press". Stickdog is right. Qutb seems to have very little concern about the powers and forces that created and foisted so many lies on the public. Why are you so concerned, Qutb with the mistakes and efforts of those sincerely struggling for knowledge and not with the out and out fraud and deception perpetrated for the benefit of the few, on the masses? <p></p><i></i>

[Qutb]

DBD, I don't think the truth matters to you at all. <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

"The credulous man is a deceiver." Francis Bacon<br><br>Not that darkbefore necessarily fits that description... <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 4/14/06 3:11 pm<br></i>

[stickdog99]

"Don't they realize that 9/11 changed everything?"<br> - credulous man <p></p><i></i>

[rothbardian]

<br>Qutb--<br><br>That is a very odd interjection you make, in regards to my comments. You absolutely and utterly wrenched it completely out of context. I'm a little new here. Is that your regular style?<br><br>So let me unnecessarily restate my context-- I was saying that BASED UPON the conclusion that 9/11 was an 'inside job'...we therefore could assume the following: All the stuff being churned out by FoxNews (your favorite news organization?), Rush Limbaugh and Jerry Falwell, about the dire threat from Arab terrorists...is hogwash.<br><br>I certainly didn't place my proposition about the 'terror threat' in the middle of thin air, the way you misrepresented it.<br><br>And while we're on the subject of 'odd'...you set up this very odd 'straw man' by declaring that I only hold to certain views because they "fit neatly" into my "political belief system".<br><br>To make such a bizarre and obviously premature declaration about something you couldn't possibly have knowledge of...is pretty strongly discrediting.<br><br>As to the "lunacy" you refer to in regards to various view on 9/11, I'll just restate the obvious--- Skyscrapers don't turn into jelly and collapse in a pile at near freefall speed...as a result of chaotic accident. <br> <p></p><i></i>

[greencrow0]

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/sheen_defiant_sheen_challenges_official_fable_video.htm">infowars.com/articles/sep..._video.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>charley sheen on TV again to push the 9/11 truth research envelope.<br><br>good work, charley! <p></p><i></i>

[darkbeforedawn]

Thanks Greencrow! just read the article. I think we may be hearing from a lot of other high profile individuals in the next month or so. Here's hoping... <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Don't they realize that 9/11 changed everything?"<br>- credulous man<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I realize that quite a bit, just I do with any event that leads to, or is used as, propaganda for war. That's why it's so important to get and keep the facts straight; pride, personal beliefs, bias and vendettas be damned. I would rather be terminally incredulous and keep my peace of mind than be wrongheaded, angry or vengeful only to find out (and probably not admit) that I'm wrong and have to live with the weight of those consequences. Think about what is <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>really</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> at stake; it's not just a matter of bravery and cowardice. It's a matter of participating in the shaping of the future.<br><br>Dream's End is right; these events will never happen again. <br><br>The materials and opinions being spread so widely to "solve" the WTC case based on "evidence" that is insufficient to prove even some of the most conservative (or even "official") hypotheses are being used as <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>propaganda </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->for <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>war</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. That's without even considering the theories that border on (or are) science fiction; backing up suppositions based on seemingly magical technological tricks and using myths and unsubstantiated documentation about secret operations and black budget projects as primary resources for support, where speculation, disinformation and misinformation can lead you down so many blind alleys and sub-labyrinths that you'll be kept running in place forever.<br><br>People like Alex Jones seem to freely admit to, and in fact pride themselves on being part of an "information war" -- the self-appointed opposition leaders. Their propaganda makes worst case assumptions based on sketchy evidence, and it tends to make people nauseated just to think about the implications, in a fashion not too dissimilar from "red scare" propaganda, or modern extremist propaganda of any sort. Reacting blindly or ignorantly to propaganda effectively makes you a drone or unspecialized automaton for the person creating it. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or it makes sense to you, because if it's wrong, then you're wrong -- and I never trust a person with their pride or the contents of their wallet at stake. People become addicted to feeling like they're part of a "movement" after even small amounts of time or effort are invested in an ideology, and I have a hard time seeing how this behavior is much different than that of those who choose to embrace the mass consumer culture because they're too lazy, greedy or ignorant to understand what exactly makes it all tick.<br><br>War and injustice aren't going on holiday any time soon. Having knowledge even hinting at the truly sickening manipulation that works toward those ends is hard to live with everyday, but there is much need for those who see the tip of the iceberg to be responsible to something greater than themselves, regardless of what speculations they have regarding its shape and size beneath the surface -- even if they are a professor of "icebergology" or whatever. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=thoughtographer>thoughtographer</A> at: 4/15/06 5:58 pm<br></i>

[Qutb]

Very good post, Thoughtographer. <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

Thanks, I put some time into it. I took people's criticism and suggestions to heart. I hope it comes across that way, because I have no reason to blow smoke here and would rather not wind up just being dismissed as a cranky asshole because I'm too quick to type sometimes when I know better. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

[stickdog99]

thoughtographer, I can't say that I actually out-and-out disagree with anything you wrote in your last two posts.<br><br>This is why I personally concentrate on exposing the most obviously dubious portions of the official 9/11 narrative and attacking people who attack those who rationally question these most dubious portions. I don't spend much time worrying or arguing about what actually happened that day because there's too much mis&disinformation around for me to ever wade through it all. I'd probably get it all wrong if I even tried, and furthermore it's completely beside the point.<br><br>However, I do recognize that there <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>is</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> a propaganda war going on. Alex Jones is certainly NOT the primary culprit but merely an amateuristic drop-in-the-bucket response to it (at best). And, yes, I very much want to see those on the "9/11 CHANGES EVERYTHING!" side of this war exposed for the (at minimum) criminally power mad and incurably deceitful propagandists that they most certainly are. Because of this, I limit my own criticism of those questioning the events of 9/11 (or even those who IMHO engage in masterbatorial whodunit and howdeydunit speculation about it) to those who do so irrationally. I think it's politically counterproductive to spend my time hammering the (at least seeming) enemies of my enemies in this admitted propaganda war, even when it's clear to me that they are just spinning their wheels at best.<br><br>Of course, some "9/11 = inside job" memes are clearly disinfo or useful foolishness (pod people and physical evidence crap "science" in general). Since these memes are (at least potentially) helpful to my propaganda opponents, I feel compelled to expose them even when promulgated by seemingly well-meaning souls.<br><br>I am not worried in the slightest that I've pitched my tent on the wrong side in this propaganda battle because even if some deluded Muslim fanatic somehow offs me and everyone I love tomorrow, they will have only done so though the incompetence and carelessness (at minimum) of those who CLEARLY promulgate their "9/11 Changes Everything" mantra for vile ends and have no more concern for the safety and wellbeing of my family and friends than any hypothetically sociopathic lovechild of Saddam and Osama. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=stickdog99>stickdog99</A> at: 4/15/06 8:28 pm<br></i>

[darkbeforedawn]

Well said Stickdog!! Even IF (worse case scenario and highly unlikely in my view) we are totally wrong about the perps and suicidal Jijadists actually DID this--we are not wrong on the obvious and criminal opportunistic uses that have been made of this event: The monstrous wars, the torture of innocents, the breaking of internation human rights agreements, the evisceration of the constitution and bill of rights-- I could go on and on. We all know what I am talking about here. <p></p><i></i>

[thoughtographer]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I am not worried in the slightest</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> that I've pitched my tent on the wrong side in this propaganda battle because even if some deluded Muslim fanatic somehow offs me and everyone I love tomorrow, they will have only done so though the incompetence and carelessness (at minimum) of those who CLEARLY promulgate their "9/11 Changes Everything" mantra for vile ends and have no more concern for the safety and wellbeing of my family and friends than any hypothetically sociopathic lovechild of Saddam and Osama.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I know, and that's what makes us very different people. You don't understand how you can also be viewed as a deluded fanatic, only reacting to what you perceive as an inappropriate response to the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>use</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> of a meme like "9/11 Changes Everything". Like, somehow, you're taking it the right way, and everyone else isn't. By claiming righteousness by virtue of protecting yourself and your loved ones from chance harm at the hands of extremists, you're really acting on base preservation instincts, which are primitive at best to suit the needs of the desired results you seem to want to achieve. I'm not so sure that's the right perspective for someone advocating carte-blanche for people who would like to see the current system overhauled regardless of the facts, which, given the current state of affairs would most likely be at the hands an angry, confused and vengeful horde.<br><br>It's not like I can't see your perspective at all, because I honestly think I can. I don't like being hurt or seeing others hurt, especially not my loved ones. I just don't want to see the world turn to shit because too many people listened to the wrong person, who, despite sounding like a ranting fool, suddenly started making sense in spite of the truth, or worse -- in spite of humanity. It's happened before, will happen again, and is happening now. How do you think we got to the point where we're even discussing this? <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>