In my defense

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Re: "hearsay"

Postby pugzleyca3 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:38 pm

"Hugh, in your opinion, what makes those witnesses more credible then the tons of withness that say the oppposite?"<br><br>This is a fair question. Regardless of the position on 9/11 the person takes who is asking it.<br><br>When it comes to this, we must all agree that there are conflicting eyewitness reports and try to make of that what we can. <br><br>Is the reason we have conflicting eyewitness reports because when you have several eyewitnesses to anything, there are usually conflicts in what they report they saw? Is this due to being human beings and our limitations because we are humans and this happens all the time? (sounds good to me until I look at it some more in context of 9/11)<br><br>Is it because the ones who witnessed the Pentagon crash and add support to the official story are all government plants and are just saying what the government wants them to say? How plausible is this? To know the answer to this would require intense first hand scrutiny of the witnesses and even then, they could lie and you'd still not know the truth. <br><br>Is it because there was a deliberate set up to confuse all the eyewitnesses which caused people to think they saw such different events? If so, how did they do it? <br><br>I don't claim to know any of the answers to any of the questions I asked above, it's all so elastic.<br><br>But the one thing we all DO know:<br><br>We have conflicting eyewitness reports!<br><br>How valuable is this? <br><br>Well, it can become more or less valuable, depending on what theory regarding the events of 9/11 you favor due to your overall research.<br><br>Personally, I would expect there to be conflicting eyewitness reports about this to some degree. But there is a huge conflict when some people say they saw an airliner and others didn't, etc. This stretches the ends of what some people say they saw and other people didn't to a breaking point, doesn't it?<br><br>So, for me, in my personal journey, I have chalked this up to another strange anamoly of that day and it enforces my belief that the official story of 9/11 is bullshit. But even without the eyewitness reports, the case against the official story is not even dented when you pile up the rest of the questions about that day.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby Qutb » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:22 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Let's not forget the first hand witnesses, the firefighters and medics who in their oral histories describe seeing and hearing exactly the sights and sounds of a controlled demolition."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>That just isn't true. See <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html" target="top">here</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> and <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.911myths.com/html/quote_abuse.html" target="top">here</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->. I can't see how any of these witness accounts are consistent with a controlled demolition scenario. Many of the witnesses who are frequently quoted as having heard explosions have also said they don't think it was CD. Is there one witness who actually believes the towers were demolished, other than William Rodriguez? (not that Rodriguez' testimony lends credence to a CD scenario anyway.) <br><br>For instance, the guy who's quoted as saying "we think there were bombs set in the buildings" says he was misquoted, and 911Myths argues the "explosion" he heard could actually have been the collapse of the south tower. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby pugzleyca3 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:50 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://prisonplanet.com/louie_cacchioli.htm">prisonplanet.com/louie_cacchioli.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>People magazine report in the link above.<br><br><br>I use Prison Planet's links a lot because there is so much information compiled in one easy spot to get to and this is just one of many of the links they have on the issue of bombs in the buildings.<br><br>Here is another one which I found quite interesting, the audio part of it:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/may2004/050504bombsinwtc.htm">www.prisonplanet.tv/artic...sinwtc.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Qutb, what do you make of these? I'm not trying to be obstinate or anything like that, I just can't dismiss this out of hand and am interested in your take on these particular reports.<br><br>Edited to correct from USA today to People mag. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pugzleyca3>pugzleyca3</A> at: 4/14/06 6:54 pm<br></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby robertdreed » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:17 pm

"But the one thing we all DO know:<br><br>We have conflicting eyewitness reports!"<br><br>I haven't found a single close-up witness to the Pentagon crash who thinks it was anything but a large passenger jet. Some of the witnesses supply more detail than others, but there is consensus on that point.<br><br>There were anomalous reports about a smaller plane following that low final approach path from one or two witnesses from afar- at least one was glancing out of a window, one of the worst places to assess size and scale. But no one who was on-site for the final moments of the crash expressed any doubt that it was a jetliner. <br><br>Links? Go find them yourselves. I've already done it. I think it's about time that someone else went looking for links, beside myself. (Admittedly, if this forum used WebX instead of ezboard, it would be much, much easier to find and link previous discussions by search term. ) Be advised that some are much more comprehensive than others. Also be advised that some of the sites add subjective editorial commentaries attempting to impeach the credibility of every witness who claims that the plane in question was a Boeing 757. <br><br>In my view, anyone attempting to impeach the credibility of witnesses to the Pentagon crash en masse by claiming that they all must have been government plants is attempting to force the facts to accord with some awfully buffoonishly naive prejudices. <br><br>Every addition of a person to a circle of witting conspirators increases the risk of discovery, and the risk increases exponentially when 10 or 20 or 30 or 100 people are added to the circle. To insist that a "government conspiracy' would assume that risk for the purpose in question is simply foolhardy. It simply isn't worth it. If you can't figure out why that might be so, you have no skills. <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 4/14/06 7:21 pm<br></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby pugzleyca3 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:29 pm

<br><br>"Links? Go find them yourselves. I've already done it. I think it's about time that someone else went looking for links, beside myself."<br><br>Fine, not a problem, I didn't asked you for any links. Goodness knows, I wouldn't want to put anyone out by asking them to prove their own points.<br><br><br>"In my view, anyone attempting to impeach the credibility of witnesses to the Pentagon crash en masse by claiming that they all must have been government plants is attempting to force the facts to accord with some awfully buffoonishly naive prejudices." <br><br>My point was that I have actually seen this done before. Did you get my point or is this a way to call me naive and a buffoon in a roundabout way?<br><br>"If you can't figure out why that might be so, you have no skills."<br><br>Oh, so we are required to have "skills" of some predetermined type when questioning 9/11 on a message board? Since when did that come into being? And who determines these "skills"? I didn't see anything like that when I read the board rules here. My bad.<br><br>Where can I take the required classes for that? <br><br>Maybe this is a lot of the problem when trying to talk to people on message boards about 9/11, some people think they rule the fucking roost and can put their own arbitrary rules into place?<br><br>Well, since I can't seem to find a place to take these classes and acquire these required skills, I think I'll just slink back into my hole with 'STUPID' in the form of a damn yellow sticky note on my forehead.<br><br>If people like me try your patience so much, why not just ignore us, instead of trying to ridicule? <br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Robert, Im waiting.....

Postby slimmouse » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:38 pm

Robert, Robert, Robert.<br>Might I be allowed to pluck a couple of quotes of yours from the last 5 or so posts ?<br><br> Quote:What you aren't doing is providing a plausible account of what might have happened instead, if it wasn't Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon.<br><br><br><br>To which I have just replied,<br><br> Quote:Firstly, it is not our job to tell people precisely what happened. It is our job ( hope you dont mind the 'we' in that ) to explain that there is some serious 4th reich shit going down here.<br><br> It is our job simply to point out that people are being lied to about 19 arabs with boxcutters, which has resulted in a "war without end", restriction of everyones civil liberties, along with social decay caused by "The war on drugs" ( too funny) - The war for drugs more like - The liberation of depleted uranium coated heroin addicted Arabs and a local community near you, et cetera et cetera et cetera.<br><br><br><br>To which you now reply with;<br><br> Quote:My problem with that is that you are in fact attempting to "tell people precisely what happened", by appending all sorts of strained claims, some of which push the envelope of the absurd.<br><br><br><br>So, what is it youre saying Im attempting to do exactly ? <p></p><i></i>
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Postby robertdreed » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:21 pm

You're attempting to evade my points. <br><br>( Neutral observers are directed to the complete and unabridged transcript of our previous exchange, which appears above. Presuming that you're sufficiently interested. Especially at this point. ) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 4/14/06 9:29 pm<br></i>
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pugzley

Postby robertdreed » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:23 pm

pugzley, you're taking the post of mine which you reference, which singled out no one in particular, waay too personally. <br><br>(Neutral observers are directed to check out the previous transcript, etc...)<br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 4/15/06 12:51 am<br></i>
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Re: pugzley

Postby darkbeforedawn » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:09 pm

Many people can't get beyond the threshold of 9-11 research, because of the issues mentioned below. I have reprinted this page because I think it addresses a lot of the "doubting Thomas' " who have posted vage malise in the above thread. These answers have really helped me explain the logistics of how forces in our own government coud have done this heinous crime:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://physics911.net/faq.htm">physics911.net/faq.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>Frequently Asked Questions <br><br>Question 1. How could the attacks be faked in such a massive operation? Surely one of the hundreds of people involved would step forward and declare what they know to the media. <br><br>Answer: Three major elements in the operational security of the September 11 Black Op would not be guessed by the average citizen, this amounting to a fourth element. <br><br>First, most of the participants in the operation had no idea they were participating in it. Instead, they thought they were involved in a war game scheduled for that day (coincidence number 123). For example several fighter wings had been flown out of the area as part of the games, providing scant air cover in the event. Later, when 911 itself resulted in the call down of all commercial aircraft, this would have made it possible to land three of the hijacked flights in the confusion, while substitute aircraft took over. Thus, 911 acted as its own cover, in effect, as well.<br><br>Second, many of the key participants in the operation already belonged to intelligence agencies from one of the participating countries, principally (at a guess) the CIA, MI6, and Mossad. All three agencies are known to have black ops and Mossad, in particular, has a very long history in explosive ordnance disposal (EOD, as it is known in the trade. (This branch of special operations has little to do with “disposal” and much to do with “explosives.”) No intelligence officer is likely to blow the cover on an operation to which he/she is fully committed. Even if an intel type decided to tell all, he or she would be scheduled for immediate “extreme prejudice” treatment, not to mention the barrier he or she would face in the next paragraph. <br><br>Third, as our own experience with the media suggests, stories that directly contradict the spin are unwelcome, to say the least, even from undercover agents. The extremely sensitive nature of the story would trigger a series of consultations up the chain of ownership to the top, from which a flat “no” would be issued. The mere possibility of Israel being involved in such a story would send owners into a panic. It is a matter of public record that all five principal owners are committed zionists for whom Israel can do no wrong. (See the MEDIA tab at the top of our index page for further information.) <br><br>Question 2. The mere possibility that the attacks were faked just sounds preposterous to me. Who could believe such a thing? <br><br>Answer: The true nature of 911 could be called “the secret that keeps itself.” It had predecessors in both American and middle eastern history in which the true perpetrators of “terrorist” acts had already been painted as victims, in effect, by the media. From the Gulf of Tonkin incident which triggered the Vietnam War back to the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1945 which enabled the creation of the the state of Israel, the attack of 911 is hardly an isolated example. Moreover, the Operation Northwoods plan (now public under the FOIA) called for airliners to be crashed into public buildings to provide an excuse for the invasion of Cuba. <br><br>Question 3. What benefit would the perpetrators of the 911 attacks, the ones you claim are most probably behind them, get from such an operation? <br><br>Answer: In a nutshell, American and British Oil interests would benefit hugely from the resulting invasions of Afghanistan, namely in a pipeline corridor from the central Asian oil fields to the existing middle eastern pipeline network, including new terminal facilities at Haifa. The Iraqi oil fields are the main prize, however. They are likely to remain in American hands for the foreseeable future. The ultimate profits from such operations are enormous and swell the coffers of companies owned by the Bush (Carlyle Group and Zapata Oil) and Cheney (Halliburton) Families, not to mention Unocal and other oil giants. There would be additional benefits to the arms industry in the manufacture of arms and war materiel to accommodate the new conflict. <br><br>In addition, a global master plan for the conquest of the Middle East had already been worked out by the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) drawn up by the neocon element in Washington. The plan even called for a “new Pearl Harbor” as the trigger that would set it in motion. <br><br>Finally, Israel would get a green light for a new wave of oppression in Gaza and the West Bank. World opinion would not turn against draconian new projects such as “The Wall,” if neighboring Islamic Countries (including Palestine) were viewed generally as a source of terrorism. There appears to be a long-term plan in effect, one that passes from government to government in Israel. The plan calls for a “divide and conquer” strategy by which all of Palestine will eventually become part of Israel. <br><br>Question 4. If the attacks of September 11 were faked, what about the long string of terrorist attacks and suicide bombings attributed to Al Qaeda? <br><br>Answer: Al Qaeda is almost certainly a long-term black operation that began shortly after the end of close cooperation between Ousama Bin Laden and the Mujahadeen with the United States in Afghanistan during the 1990s. Bin Laden, who is known to have suffered from terminal kidney disease, was visited by the CIA section chief in a hospital in Dubai in mid-2001. He survived just long enough after 911 to issue a statement that the attacks were not his work or the work of any Muslim. The denial appeared in a Pakistani newspaper, but was ignored by western news sources. In the words of one of a Panel member from the intel community, “Al Qaeda is us.” <br><br>In view of the fact that the same pattern of anomalous circumstances surrounds both previous and subsequent attacks attributed to Al Qaeda (see OTHER ATTACKS - this website), Al Qaeda appears to serve as a kind of universal boogeyman to herd frightened western legislators into a neo-fascist political program that will, in the long run, result in dictatorial powers concentrated in the hands of a small cadre in Washington. <br><br>Question 5. If you people are right, why aren't you all dead by now?<br><br>Answer: If you're asking why we haven't been "taken care of" by the true perpetrators, the answer is twofold. a) There are far too many of us to be "taken care of" without raising more suspicion than the perpetrators could handle. There are now literally hundreds of 911-skeptical websites, thousands of people working on the issue, and millions of people who have reached the same degree of skepticism or suspicion. (b) We assume that the perpetrators have enough control/influence over the mainstream media to keep 911 issues off the page and off the screen. (See the answer to Question 1.) Thus, they may not be particularly worried about our efforts - so far.<br><br>If they are worried, they will launch (or already have launched) a disinformation campaign. This would consist of one or more elements in an internet setting of articles and websites: Limited Hangout (a partial analysis, along with blame placed on the military-industrial complex, for example); Well-poisoning (the appearance of an investigative effort accompanied by stories or ads that refer to UFOs, mental telepathy, or what have you); Blackballing (a mixture of name-calling and misdirected analysis that leaves the impression that legitimate websites are either run by "conspiracy nuts" or are themselves engaged in a disinformation campaign run by terrorists); Denial of Evidence (a specific piece of 9/11 evidence is analyzed with seeming care - but for the omission of one or two crucial elements. The analysis may conclude that a particular video or photo or document was faked, unreliable, or in some other way unacceptable as evidence.)<br><br>The fact that websites with some of these qualities already exist (not a large percentage) creates problems with interpretation; there would be no easy way to distinguish such a website mounted by a trained psyops professional from one designed by a well-meaning but off-track investigator.<br><br>Question 6. Are you saying the Jews are behind 911? <br><br>Answer: Certainly not. Although Israel is ostensibly a Jewish state, its actions in the middle east are in direct conflict with Jewish Law, ethics and morality. The European (Khazarite) Jews may be described as double victims, suffering not only from centuries of persecution after the fall of Muslim Spain, but from the deceptive practices adopted by the Zionist planners responsible for Israel. Myths such as “a land without people for a people without land” (both questionable propositions) misled thousands of settlers in the Jewish proto-state, followed by millions later. <br><br>As a general rule, zionist organizations in the west have only one tool with which to counter revelations of the myth-building exercise. Whoever makes such claims is labeled an “anti-semite,” a peculiarly ironic charge under the circumstances. <br><br><br>Question 7 . What can the average citizen do about the situation revealed on your website, as well as the multitude of other sources? <br><br>Answer: Although some people may come up with more creative approaches to the publicity problem, we strongly suggest that you refer your friends and acquaintances to this and similar websites. As well, you could: <br><br>1. Place an inexpensive ad in your local paper suggesting that the reader visit the website of the (printed) URL. <br><br>2. Write a brief letter to your elected federal representative, urging him or her to think twice about 911 and to visit an appropriate website. (If you have printed material or a video on the subject, send it.) <br><br>3. Print up some cards outlining the problem and leave them in public places. <br><br>4. Write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper, briefly stating the questions raised by the publicly available evidence left in the wake of 911, being sure to provide a URL. <br><br>5. Send financial support to the 911-oriented websites that request it. (See our list under LINKS, for example.) <br><br>Don’t be shy!<br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby Qutb » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:56 pm

puglzeyga - I'm quoting from the audio clip: "what we've been told by the Fire Department is that there are gas lines that are exploding".<br><br>In such a chaotic and unprecendented situation, it's not surprising that there's a lot of initial confusion about what's going on. A bomb had been placed in the WTC before, so that was a natural thing to suspect. What's more surprising is that these initial suspicions are used by people who want to prove that the towers were brought down with explosives, without even trying to contact the witnesses and interview them further about it, and then trying to suggest how the witness statements might fit together in a specific controlled demolition scenario. Or maybe not so surprising. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby Dreams End » Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:10 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Certainly not. Although Israel is ostensibly a Jewish state, its actions in the middle east are in direct conflict with Jewish Law, ethics and morality. The European (Khazarite) Jews may be described as double victims, suffering not only from centuries of persecution after the fall of Muslim Spain, but from the deceptive practices adopted by the Zionist planners responsible for Israel. Myths such as “a land without people for a people without land” (both questionable propositions) misled thousands of settlers in the Jewish proto-state, followed by millions later.<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, if it's not the European (Khazarite) Jews, then who.....<br><br>Hey, wait a second............ <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby thoughtographer » Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:08 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I use Prison Planet's links a lot because there is so much information compiled in one easy spot to get to and this is just one of many of the links they have on the issue of bombs in the buildings.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>That is precisely what is most worrisome about using it and sites like it as a primary or frequent resources. I understand that it's convenient for the sake of supporting your points, but think about what that means. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>
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Re: "hearsay"

Postby pugzleyca3 » Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:32 pm

"I understand that it's convenient for the sake of supporting your points, but think about what that means."<br><br>I understand that no website is going to have all the truth. And I also understand that you have to pick out whatever gems you can, whether it is Alex Jones's site or mainstream news. <br><br>I have written letters to Alex Jones regarding some of the articles I've seen posted on his site telling him that what he had posted was fearmongering and patently inaccurate, asking him did he not care what was appearing on his site. One case in point was the article where everyone was going bonkers over the statue (Bush's bust) with no term end date on it. My biggest problem with his site is Paul Watson's articles. I do not read anything he writes anymore.<br><br>I am not totally without any powers of discernment.<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pugzleyca3>pugzleyca3</A> at: 4/15/06 9:35 pm<br></i>
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Re: ...

Postby thoughtographer » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:33 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have written letters to Alex Jones regarding some of the articles I've seen posted on his site telling him that what he had posted was fearmongering and patently inaccurate, asking him did he not care what was appearing on his site. One case in point was the article where everyone was going bonkers over the statue (Bush's bust) with no term end date on it. My biggest problem with his site is Paul Watson's articles. I do not read anything he writes anymore.<br><br>I am not totally without any powers of discernment.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Bully for you; that doesn't mean that the ideas don't catch on like wildfire with other, less discerning readers. In all seriousness, I'm very glad that you at least speak up about it and make your voice heard, but that doesn't change the fact that the number of dupes and morons is increasing by the day. To just use the ignorant masses as padding for your numbers is irresponsible and ultimately assisting manipulative ends, and that's what I see happening a lot these days. Every time I watch an Alex Jones documentary, I feel ill, but it's not because I think he's exposing the truth -- it's that I think he's perpetuating simplistic, and often incorrect, frightening and dangerous views of it. I think you underestimate how persuasive this stuff is for some people. Every day, the world seems to be more and more like a schoolyard of people wanting to call anyone "chicken" who doesn't want to choose between two or three different types of shit to eat, whether it's who you voted for, or which pieces of belief coming the "9/11 Truth Movement" you subscribe to. You can't talk about stuff like this in bars these days unless you're looking for a fight, and that's just if someone happens to overhear you. What difference would it make if the prevailing view of things changed? Not much, if history is much to go on, especially not the dynamic view of history afforded by parapolitics. <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>
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Re: Alex Jones pushing button he can

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:44 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Every time I watch an Alex Jones documentary, I feel ill, but it's not because I think he's exposing the truth -- it's that I think he's perpetuating simplistic, and often incorrect, frightening and dangerous views of it.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Not as "simplistic, and often incorrect, frightening and dangerous" as the views coming out of the White House and so-called mainstream press.<br><br>I agree that Jones is not precise and slings some trash. He's citing Morgan 'no planes' Reynolds as 'on our side,' for one. I winced when I read that in the CNN transcript.<br><br>As to the "simplistic" view, the cartoony-sounding New World Order as a diagnosis does match the symptoms and doctrines in motion whether that sounds reductive or not.<br><br>Military domination, surveillance, media control, pharmaceutical manipulations, the works. <br><br>I don't want Alex Jones as a mouthpiece anymore than I want Morgan 'no planes' Reynolds but he's still a lot more accurate than Fox etc.<br><br>Sad but true...ain't it? <p></p><i></i>
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