In my defense

by **pugzleyca3** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:20 pm

Nomo, I too believe that some of the theories were set up for easy debunking. Especially the no plane/missile theory of the Pentagon. And the fact that the tape was never released when there were so many tapes of the other crashes really makes me wonder what's up with that. Not one single civilian tape, even from a distance? I don't know if it's because it is a secured area or what, and maybe I am all wet on that, but how strange is that? Don't people go see the Pentagon and film it as tourists? Maybe I'm naive and this simply isn't allowed for security purposes. The way the government handled the whole Pentagon crash scenario allowed them to hold back a potential revelation until the 9/11 truth movement reached critical mass, which I think it probably is close to being right now. And it appears the tapes are close to being released right now. "If your movement depends that much on the no-plane-at-the-Pentagon thesis then maybe it deserves to be shattered. That's the problem exactly with most of the more outlandish theories: they were set up for easy debunking." Being nice is not required here, but it goes a long way to encouraging civilized debate. Did I take this the wrong way? Or is it your intent to convey a snide tone in your reply to me? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pugzleyca3>pugzleyca3</A> at: 4/12/06 2:22 pm

by **robertdreed** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:29 pm

Not one single civilian tape, even from a distance? I don't know if it's because it is a secured area or what, and maybe I am all wet on that, but how strange is that? Don't people go see the Pentagon and film it as tourists? As a visually appealing tourist attraction, the Pentagon is on a par with your average football stadium. It's off to itself between Shirley Highway and the Potomac River, surrounded by highways, huge parking lots and bus lots. Click on this Yahoo map of Arlington, find the Pentagon, click on it and click again to enlarge. <a href="http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=&csz=arlington+virginia&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=">maps.yahoo.com/maps_resul...name=&qty=</a> It's tough to even find a vantage point from which to view it in full, since it's both extremely wide and relatively low to the ground. That's why aerial photography is pretty much necessary to provide anything like a decent photograph of the place. <a href="http://www.alamy.com/stock_photography/000D46C1-CBE5-4989-8FA1-E4A">www.alamy.com/stock_photo...9-8FA1-E4A</a> Note the size of the buses for scale. Oops, sorry, that first image site isn't available for copy-and-paste. Look it up using search terms "aerial photograph" "pentagon" "cameron+davidson", that should get you the image. <a href="http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2001/010914-F-8006R-006.jpg">www.defenselink.mil/photo...6R-006.jpg</a> <a href="http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pentagon/pentagoninfo.html">www.defenselink.mil/pubs/...ninfo.html</a> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 4/12/06 3:49 pm

by **thoughtographer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:34 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The way the government handled the whole Pentagon crash scenario allowed them to hold back a potential revelation until the 9/11 truth movement reached critical mass, which I think it probably is close to being right now. And it appears the tapes are close to being released right now.<hr></blockquote> What difference does it make if anything is released at this point. It's not like anyone is going to trust the material at this point, regardless. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."

by **robertdreed** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:39 pm

ba da bing

by **nomo** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:41 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What difference does it make if anything is released at this point. It's not like anyone is going to trust the material at this point, regardless.<hr></blockquote> And isn't that just fncking brilliant? Just imagine the Pentagon releasing a bunch of tapes of flight 77 smashing into the Pentagon. Guaranteed to have the 9/11 Truthers tied up for years debating the veracity of that footage. And meanwhile, while we were all distracted... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">

by **robertdreed** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:48 pm

That's actually speaks to a really important point, thoughtographer. Plenty of people have no problem applying their skepticism selectively, according to their preconceived hypotheses. A tangentially related example- plenty of people accept the idea that Hani Hanjour and a few of the other Al Qaeda hijackers were totally inept pilots. But that may have been merely a ruse by them to throw off surveillance. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying that's what could have happened. And with all the skepticism I've read about various aspects of the 9-11 story, I haven't seen anyone bring up this possibility except for myself. And this is the first time I've ever recorded that suspicion in writing- on-line, or anywhere else. If people can bring up suspicions that huge news organizations collaborated together to fake their publically released broadcast videos for one of the most widely eyewitnessed and historically significant events ever captured on film, I don't feel as if I'm out of bounds in speculating that Hani Hanjour may have been acting like a hopeless novice in front of an American flight instructor on purpose, as a deception. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 4/12/06 4:04 pm

by **robertdreed** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:51 pm

Interesting footnote to the discussion <a href="http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3795992">msnbc.msn.com/id/3795992</a>

by **thoughtographer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:54 pm

Hey, you actually made the full point, but I'm with you. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."

by **Qutb** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:10 pm

"And with all the skepticism I've read about various aspects of the 9-11 story, I haven't seen anyone bring up this possibility except for myself." I think I beat you to it, Robert <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

by **robertdreed** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:14 pm

Continuing with my line of speculations: The "Hani Hanjour faked incompetence as a trick" hypothesis brings up the question of how and where Hanjour managed to achieve such a top-level degree of competence and confidence as far as the piloting skills required to pull off the Pentagon attack the way that it was done. The "the MSM faked the videos of the WTC attacks" hypothesis brings up questions such as how it's possible to fake a video being broadcast in real time; how the conspirators to substitute the live video feeds with pre-recorded fakes; how it would be possible for such pre-recorded fakes to accurately account for the sky and weather conditions; how many digital forgers with Above Top Secret clearances would have been required to accomplish the mock-ups; how many on-duty news editors with similar Above Top Secret inside knowledge were required to make the required substitutions, etc. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 4/12/06 4:24 pm

by **pugzleyca3** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:24 pm

"As a visually appealing tourist attraction, the Pentagon is on a par with your average football stadium." hahaha! Well, that shoots that in the butt. Thanks! I appreciate your taking the time to post these links and your reply to my post.

by **pugzleyca3** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:41 pm

Thoughtographer, I believe this has the potential to do a lot of damage to the truth movement. The amount of spin and the power of the media is going to be huge when the tapes are released. Who knows, the president himself might come out again and speak directly to people about not believing wild eyed conspiracy theories. All it took was for people to see it in that one speech when he did it before and look how much demonization went on immediately after he did that. People still use the "wild eyed conspriacy theorist" label to shut people up about 9/11 to this day. They can send out a literal army of with press releases disiminating disinformation on mainstream news. Their propaganda budget is in the hundreds of millions isn't it? There is no way of calculating the potential fall out, but nomo is right, at the very least, it will serve as another distraction that will go on for years about the genuiness of the tape in the truth circles. I personally steer far away from the Pentagon when talking about 9/11 to Joe citizen. I guess it will all depend on how many people actually have doubts about planes hitting the Pentagon in order to know how much difference it would make. And none of us can know that, there's no data or even polls to tell us that. (not that I put a whole lot of stock in polls anyway). I just hate to see anyone swayed from asking questions about the official story. Picture this: A documentary made by the government about the pods, holograms and the pentagon hole theories and CD. And then released on mainstream television. The spin that could be put on that is nothing short of utterly amazing. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pugzleyca3>pugzleyca3</A> at: 4/12/06 4:42 pm

by **robertdreed** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:42 pm

There are in fact tours of the Pentagon building. I went on one in Junior High school. Nothing revelatory, needless to say. "The largest office building in the world", etc., etc. The halls are so wide that golf carts are used by the go-fers and couriers. And the halls are bedecked with various prints of paintings of military art- portraits of generals, battle scenes, etc. My Dad used to work there, during the Vietnam era. I found some neat manuals in the stacks on how the Vietnamese built booby traps and IEDs, and took them home...I've since committed the information to memory. The coconut mine, filled with gunpowder and corked with a fuse of sodium sealed in wax, etc. How to build a couple different kinds of zip guns. I wonder if that stuff is Classified, these days. It used to be fairly standard material for combat studies. Maybe you can even find it on eBay, who knows... I was a teenage hawk in the 60s. In 1968 I wore a Nixon for President button. By 1972, I wore a McGovern button, and even did some canvassing for local Democratic candidates. Steny Hoyer, you owe me...I'm willing to forgive your record as a DLC -type jiveass if you step up and be the guy to offer the resolution for Bush's impeachment, that will be sufficient to clear the books for a while.

by **slimmouse** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:46 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>plenty of people accept the idea that Hani Hanjour and a few of the other Al Qaeda hijackers were totally inept pilots. But that may have been merely a ruse by them to throw off surveillance.<hr></blockquote> Whilst plenty of others appear to understand that the flying of a Passenger jet in on a 270 degree turn at 500 mph, only 5 feet of the ground ( see the "official video" release of the impact point) is standard aviation practise ! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> I guess it depends on what level of breathless disbelief we descend to huh ? Oh and one other point. You have an "Al quaeda" aviation genius flying his plane into the wrong end of the building ? Talk about a waste of talent.

by **robertdreed** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:47 pm

"Picture this: A documentary made by the government about the pods, holograms and the pentagon hole theories and CD. And then released on mainstream television. The spin that could be put on that is nothing short of utterly amazing." I'd bet that something like that is in the works. But overt government sponsorship would be counterproductive. Better to have some privately funded Young Republican thinktanker-filmmaker to get a special degree of access and cooperation from Rumsfeldites.

In my defense

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Releasing anything at this point

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Whilst plenty of others.

Re: Pugzley and eyewitness

Who is online