Loose Change - a must see

by **NewKid** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:52 pm

I don't doubt all that stuff about the islamic stuff, but nobody has ever explained how the particular hijackers did have or could ever have the physical abilities necessary to do what needed to be done. We can't even establish they're on the plane. Everything we know about them says they aren't people who be trusted to hijack a hot dog stand. I don't see any sponsor ever commissioning these folks, whether Bin Laden or whoever. Now I assume you don't think there's a perfectly normal explanation for the air defense response and stuff (at least most LIHOPers that I've heard of think there was active monkeying with FAA and NORAD) and so then we have to acknowledge complicity of some faction that has the ability to do that. Atta et al don't. Even if they had the equipment, they or their sponsors don't have access to or control over the people necessary to do that or think you might be able to do that. So I think to go down the LIHOP road, we need a totally different set of hijackers who nobody has indentified and we have to speculate about some other theory of what happened that has no evidentiary basis whatsoever. Iroquois and I have both mentioned in another thread the problem with elements in the US govt who wanted it to happen letting these people have operational control of making it happen. It would completely contradict every bone in the being of these people. Atta et al couldn't be trusted to go through with it, or double cross them or fuck it up, or even oversleep their alarm. Again, we've hashed it out in other threads, but there's not a single piece of evidence for official story or LIHOP that can't be explained by MIHOP and there's a whole shit load that can't be explained by official story or LIHOP. So yeah, everyone can make up their own mind, but to say it flies against everything we know, I just don't see that at all. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=newkid@rigorousintuition>NewKid</A> at: 3/31/06 5:03 pm

by **FourthBase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:53 pm

<a href="http://www.otis.com/otis150/section/1,2344,ARC3066_CLI1_RES1_SEC5,00.html">www.otis.com/otis150/sect...C5,00.html</a> <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm">www.usatoday.com/life/sep...iths_x.htm</a> Those are two unscandalous links. Read them as soon as you can. There's no way a jet fuel fireball raced down that shaft.

by **slimmouse** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:58 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Read them as soon as you can. There's no way a jet fuel fireball raced down that shaft.<hr></blockquote> I just trust my own eyes. I know what I saw. And to be honest, I find it a true credit to the naughty ones that they can get people ( those on our side ) even thinking about or questioning that what they can see with their own eyes, and a modicum of common sense. But it makes for good discussion I spose <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

by **Qutb** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:02 pm

NEwKid, as I said, I just have to disagree with the conclusions you have reached.

by **FourthBase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:04 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground<hr></blockquote> But to get to the B4 level, it has to the pass the Griffiths... <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Arturo was running 50A, the big freight car going from the six-level basement to the 108th floor. When American Airlines Flight 11 struck at 8:46 a.m., Arturo and a co-worker were heading from the second-level basement to the 49th floor. Like his wife, who had just closed the doors on a passenger elevator leaving the 78th floor, Arturo heard a sudden whistling sound and the impact. Cables were severed and Arturo's car plunged into free fall. "The only thing I remember saying was 'Oh, God, Oh, God, I'm going to die,' " he says, recalling how he tried to protect his head as the car plummeted. The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors. The imploding elevator door crushed Arturo's right knee and broke the tibia below it. His passenger escaped injury.<hr></blockquote> Arturo is in the shaft that the fireball presumably travelled as it reached the ground lobby and B4. And there's absolutely no mention of the fireball in his story. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>All that morning, Carmen had been carrying hundreds of passengers from the 78th-floor sky lobby to the bond-trading offices of Cantor Fitzgerald on the 101st to 105th floors and the Windows on the World restaurant above that. "They were so packed (in the elevators) — like sardines," she says. A full elevator had just left the 78th floor, and Carmen was about to carry up six or seven stragglers. The plane struck as the doors of her elevator closed. They could hear debris smash into the top of the car; then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in. Carmen jammed her fingers between the closed doors, pulled them partly open and held them as passengers clambered over and under her 5-foot-6 frame to escape. Before finally throwing herself out onto the lobby floor, she glanced back to be sure the elevator was empty. That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck. Her hands were badly burned.<hr></blockquote> Carmen is near the 78th floor. The elevator "cracked open" and flames "pour in", but apparently no one is hurt until she glances back. So this fireball barely touches her elevator. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 3/31/06 5:12 pm

by **NewKid** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:05 pm

That's fine, I don't want to write a monograph either and so I understand why you don't right now. But if someone could at some point direct me to the folks who have analysed all these questions and explained how this could occur I'd love to see it.

by **slimmouse** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:12 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>That's fine, I don't want to write a monograph either and so I understand why you don't right now. But if someone could at some point direct me to the folks who have analysed all these questions and explained how this could occur I'd love to see it.<hr></blockquote> I would like those who have told us "officially" what happened to explain why to anyone with half a brain, how they arent actually lying thru their teeth ? I could write a book about that. Oh damn, umpteen others have beaten me to it <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

by **sunny** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:29 pm

<a href="http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050321052700567">www.911truth.org/article....1052700567</a> ~snip~ THE COUP AT POPULAR MECHANICS In the months leading up to the Chertoff article in PM, a brutal take-over occurred at the magazine. In September 2004, Joe Oldham, the magazines former editor-in-chief was replaced by James B. Meigs, who came to PM with a deputy, Jerry Beilinson, from National Geographic Adventure. In October, a new creative director replaced PMs 21-year veteran who was given ninety minutes to clear out of his office. A former senior editor at PM, who is forbidden from openly discussing the coup at PM, told AFP that the former creative director was abruptly told to leave and given severance pay of two weeks wages for every year spent at PM. Three or four people have been similarly dismissed every month since, he said. He said he was astounded that the coup at PM had not been reported in the mainstream media. PM has long been a supporter of the U.S. military. The magazine ran a full page ad in support of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan in May 2003. Since the purge last September, however, PM readers have noticed that government propaganda has replaced scientific writing. A letter to the editor in the current issue says, I think you guys are just another tool in the governments propaganda machine. Finis Source article here.

by **NewKid** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:37 pm

The article at PM was so tendentious that it was self-discrediting in alot of ways even if there was no coup or change in editorial staff.

by **NewKid** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:41 pm

Hmm <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Black is a former president and publisher of USA Today. In 1983, Black was made president of the new newspaper published by Gannett. The following year she was made publisher and soon became a member of Gannetts board of directors. Despite her efforts, her biography reads, USA Today did not show an operating profit in the eight years that Black was there. The newspaper's non-profitability notwithstanding, Gannett paid Black $600,000 a year for her efforts. USA Today reportedly had a circulation of 1.8 million when Black left in 1991. USA Today is often given away free of charge. Black left USA Today to become president and chief executive of the nascent Newspaper Association of America (NAA), formed on June 1, 1992. She then became the leading spokesperson and lobbyist for the nation's newspaper industry. Black's position at the NAA carried "considerable political heft," Paul Farhi of The Washington Post wrote, "given that the 1,400 members of her organization control the nations editorial pages. In 1995, for an annual salary reported to be "in excess of $1 million," Black was hired by Hearst Corp. to head its magazine division. Named by Fortune magazine as one of the Most Powerful Women in American Business, Black sits on the boards of Hearst Corp., the Advertising Council, IBM, and Coca-Cola. She is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. It is often said that USA Today is controlled by the CIA, which, like the paper, is based in McLean, Virginia. The little-known fact that Black is married to Thomas E. Harvey, an obscure lawyer who became a White House Fellow in 1977 and served as special assistant to the Director of Central Intelligence (DCI), provides substance to these rumors. Black's corporate biography does not mention her husband. <hr></blockquote>

by **Qutb** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:57 pm

<a href="http://www.mwoa.org/David_Frank.html" target="top">Here's</a> a guy who smelled jet fuel: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>As we got into the low 40's the jet fuel got much more intense to the point where I thought we might pass out. People were clearly suffering the intense fumes and others were clearly beginning to panic. Roselle was not doing well panting heavily and we all needed water. Some people began passing small Poland Spring water bottles up to us from the floor below. This was a real relief. Roselle loved it. It cut some of the fuel taste burning our throats. It eased our sense of dehydration and smoke inhalation. Besides, it was wet. I opened the door to the 40's floor and we momentarily stood in the doorway. I looked and saw no one on the floor. Smoke, and the smell of more jet fuel. We kept to the stairway. Today, I believe that when the aircraft hit the north face of the tower, it's momentum, driven by the aircraft structure and fuel, vivisected the floor, slicing through the elevator shaft and effectively dumping fuel from the low 90's all the way down to the bottom. That's why we kept smelling fuel almost all the way down.<hr></blockquote> I see the problem though, 4th base. The one elevator that went all the way was in use and no fireball seems to have travelled down that shaft, if that account is correct. However, there are so many things that point to jet fuel, and a bomb in the basement synchronized with the impact of the plane - what would be the purpose of that? -makes absolutely no sense to me, so I'm inclined to think the jet fuel found its way down there somehow. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm" target="top">This</a> USA Today article on the WTC elevators suggests the following:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.<hr></blockquote> How plausible that is, I don't know, but at least that is what is alleged, and if accurate that would solve the mystery. Another witness: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>"She was stepping off the elevator when the plane hit," Wertz recalls. "There was an explosion on top of the elevator as if someone had thrown a hand grenade. I jumped out, fell to the floor and looked behind me. I saw the elevator disintegrate in a ball of flames and fall down (the shaft). There was a big hole in the ceiling above the elevator. I saw the cables fold up as if they'd become detached. It took no more than two seconds."<hr></blockquote> From the NIST report: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Less than 15 percent of the jet fuel burned in the spray cloud inside the building. A roughly comparable amount was consumed in the fireballs outside the building. Thus, well over half of the jet fuel remained in the building, unburned in the initial fires. Some splashed onto the office furnishings and combustibles from the aircraft that lodged on the impacted floors, there to ignite (immediately or later) the fires that would continue to burn for the remaining life of the building. Some of the burning fuel shot up and down the elevator shafts, blowing out doors and walls on other floors all the way down to the basement. Flash fires in the lobby blew out many of the plate glass windows. Fortunately, there were not enough combustibles near the elevators for major fires to start on the lower floors. (p.24 NIST Report)<hr></blockquote> It is also claimed in <a href="http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?s=6fb1203ff700b1495b1ed1d332c53374&showtopic=4491&st=15" target="top">this</a> thread that there were in fact three elevators that had shafts that ran the entire height of the building, all the way down to the basement, even though the elevators in two of them didn't go further than the lobby. It's a possibility I guess. Bottom line is, explosives used in controlled demolition, specifically "cutter charges" used to slice through steel, do not have the effects of napalm... nor do they smell of kerosene, which the guys in the basement also reported... nor does an explosion in the basement contribute to a collapse which starts 100 minutes later from the top. BTW, not really relevant to this discussion, but <a href="http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/fall.html" target="top">here's</a> a picture of a "building performance team at the Fresh Kills Landfill, were piles of steel from the World Trade Center towers were stored": <img src="http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/Images/fall4.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Note that the steel hasn't been shipped off to China.

by **FourthBase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:54 pm

Good stuff, Qutb. If there were other shafts then went to the basements... Then that would provisionally convince me. What a link you posted! <blockquote>Quote:<hr>After picking up my parking stub, I began to lug my computer bag up the street, past the Marriott on to WTC1. Upon entering the building, I realize that my roadrunner portfolio was back in the car. So, back I went. Got to the lot, found the car (the lot was virtually empty-curious) and scooped up the portfolio.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Simultaneously, the building groaned and leaned south dramatically in slow motion. Would the structure hold? I braced myself with my feet to keep from sliding. Then back we went in reverse. This time I braced with my hands. At this point, I don't remember if we went back and forth again, but I do remember that the swaying stopped, and to my dismay, the structure sunk downward.<hr></blockquote> Every now and then I get choked up reading about 9/11. This picture got to me: <img src="http://www.mwoa.org/David_Frank_Mike_and_Roselle2.JPG" style="border:0;"/>

by **4911** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:52 pm

"nor does an explosion in the basement contribute to a collapse which starts 100 minutes later from the top." how do you wanna know that? Can you be sure it wouldnt be used as some form of stabilising technique?

by **StarmanSkye** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:33 am

<a href="http://cosmicpenguin.com/911/chrisbrown/corerefs/index.html">cosmicpenguin.com/911/chr...index.html</a> Only a central concrete core roughly 60-80 feet square comprised of several vertical voids that house exit stairs, hoistways for the elevators, utility raceways and mechanical chases; and also, significantly, the sprinkler system main lines. ** --Qutb quote-- I see the problem though, 4th base. The one elevator that went all the way was in use and no fireball seems to have travelled down that shaft, if that account is correct. However, there are so many things that point to jet fuel, and a bomb in the basement synchronized with the impact of the plane - what would be the purpose of that? -makes absolutely no sense to me, so I'm inclined to think the jet fuel found its way down there somehow. --unquote-- Comment -- I agree, that's always puzzled me -- What would have been the purpose behind explosions in the basement as the plane struck WTC 2? I've seen some sites suggest these were pressure-triggered demolition charges installed during construction, to cause a foundation 'weakening' setting-up a delayed building collapse -- but as was pointed out, the lower-levels frame and foundation did not fail and did NOT collapse (though I've also read workmen wondered at how easily the foundation concrete slabs were to remove without breaking-up into small pieces.) This USA Today article on the WTC elevators suggests the following: Quote: Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts. --end quote-- Comment: The freight elevator in North had just started UP from one of the basement levels, and had only gone a minimum of 15-16 floors when the plane struck (I believe it WAS a plane, in both 1 & 2), as immediately it's lines were sliced and it fell 14-15 stories until the emergency brakes grabbed (when the doors collapsed inward). Esp NOTE: The elevator shafts were only separated by twin-sheets of sheetrock (I think I saw it somewhere, they were 1 inch ea) -- NO concrete -- only the core-columns were encased in rebar-reinforced concrete. So, in addition to utility raceways and mechanical chases, jet-fuel could have fallen down these spaces and across neighboring elevator shaftways through debris-and-crash/explosion caused ruptures. As well, the stairways were encased in sheetrock also. I hold that that it was the large quantity of JP-8 fuel that plummetted down the utility, hoist and mechanical spaces that composed the core, and which ignited causing flash-explosions in the lobby and stairways and elevator spaces, and the basement explosions noted by Rodriguiz. I've also read a witness-report by a fireman who reported on an engine company that was trying to rescue victims trapped in a crashed-elevator on the lobby of the South Tower, with evidence of a fire raging BELOW the trapped car that was slowly cooking the car's occupants. I believe the same thing happened as did in North, with jet-fuel falling down the utility/elevator and mechanical spaces in the tower's core -- tho I don't think there was an equivalent amount of fire and explosive fireball ignition (as recall WTC 2 had a large quantity of fuel blow out the broken east windows from the angled southeast aircraft strike). These are the ONLY mechanical plans I've seen of the WTC complex: <a href="http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/masterplan/index.html">911research.wtc7.net/wtc/...index.html</a> The Port Authority's failure to release the blueprints for a public project built with public funds is just ONE part of the enormous cover-up and obstruction of justice that has impeded trying to make sense of what happened that terrible day -- just as the traitor-conspirators intended. But note in the several plans submitted above that the entire below-ground spaces were contiguous and connected, comprising large underground exhibit halls and truck-parking/loading bays, fleet-parking under the Customs bldg, with large truck-elevators and ramps and light-rail lines and tunnel-spaces and record-keeping and evidence and mail-sorting spaces ... A huge fireball erupting in the basement of North Tower would have caused enormous damage to all the shared spaces -- and as the towers fell, those pressures would have entered the other WTC buildings through those large common underground connected-spaces. This might help explain the damage observed at the WTC 6 Customs building as the South Tower fell (and a large dust-cloud observed and photographed just above the WTC 6 roof, since unexplained). One thing to consider is that as the South and then north towers collapsed, the heat of air-compression would have resulted in spontaneous combustion and enormous temperatures along with pressure-differentials and sonic-speed blast-waves like a thermobaric weapon (consider the small volumes of air/fuel ignited to burning-temperatures in a diesel engine with 12 to 1 compression of a volume only about 3 inches cubed per cylinder -- the crushing-force volume of air and combustible vapors in the WTC collapse would have been like the forces during a Pompeii eruption, with microparticles forming pyroclastic flows (as were observed). I guess I'm still not absolutely convinced the towers were brought down by CD -- I may lean that way at times but I haven't been convinced. Starman

by **darkbeforedawn** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:56 am

I can't believe I am reading this! Qutb an De and others seriously discussing "jet fuel"--it's nothing but kerosene and it simply can not melt steel, not ever. Even if they filled the entire elevator shaft with it, nothing would have happened to the steel. It would simply burn until it was gone and everything else flammable was gone, and the steel would still be standing there as was the case in every other fire involving contruction grade steel framed buildings. How do you think jets could fly around if their fuel melted steel. DUH This is insane. Hello? I can't help but feel the previous posts are deliberately obfuscation. These fires would have had to reach temperature above 1000f. Look at photos just before the towers fell. The windows aren't even blown out. The smoke is black and smoldering indicating low temperature. There is a woman standing at the edge of the hole on the 94th floor peering over the edge. Nothing is "burnt" looking about her. ho-hum. Certain posters I think are just frantic that people might again be wondering about Dov Zahkeim, comptroller of the DOD at the time of the attacks, the missing 3 trillion dollars and his later support of Hamas, the dancing Israeli "moving men" and strange absence of Israeli casualties in the WTC, the timely move out of Zim shipping and the e-mails received at the Odego warning them out of the building. H-m-m wouldn't want to implicate the zionist controlled press in the cover-up of all this either, now would we? how about Silversteins friendship with Sharon. Certainly wouldn't want it to get out about how most of the drafters of the famous document calling for a "new Pearl Harbor" (The Project for the New American Century) held dual citizenship to Israel. Oh well. Gosh, it isn't Israel that wanted that war in Iraq, now was it? Better fight like hell to keep people thinking a bunch of kids with boxcutters did this under the direction of a lunatic living in a cave. Good try guys. But I don't buy it, and when people start putting the facts together, they mostly won't either....

Loose Change - a must see

Re: Human Torches

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Coup at Popular Mechanics before debunking article

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