Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and consp

by **Dreams End** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:02 pm

Eric said this: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>To be honest, you are obviously extremely biased and amost certainly Jewish I am not anti-semitic, I have never (to my knowledge) met a Jewish person, have never heard or made an anti-semitic remark because Jewishness isn't an issue here.<hr></blockquote> and this: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have never voted but I certainly wouldn't vote for a Jewish prime minister any more than I would vote for a French one (in the current global political situation).<hr></blockquote> So clearly, Jewishness IS an issue for you. Do you guys all go to the same school of obfuscation? Don't "accuse" someone of being Jewish and then say Jewishness doesn't matter. That's just stupid. But back to the topic. Lots to look through on Dancing Israelis thread (reminds me of a Sherlock Holmes story.) Still looking for confirmation that no Israeli's died in the attacks and also some evidence that the person who IM'ed two people in the World Trade Center was...well I don't even know...is the claim that they were Israeli? Did they ever find out who it was? The company itself is based in the US with offices in Israel. Do we know that it wasn't the same people who told Ashcroft to stop flying planes? And Willie Brown?

by **Qutb** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:21 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It's interesting to be called a nazi by the American left when I regard Bill Clinton (for example) as an extreme virulent right wing thug, much worse than Tony Blair.<hr></blockquote> I think Blair and Clinton are at about the same level of right-wing thugness, though I tend to like Blair even less. I'm no fan of Bill Clinton, so I don't get the supposed irony. The libertarian right are Grover Norquist's useful idiots, in more than one way. That's not my idea of an "opposition". The lesson drawn by Justin Raimondo from Katrina was that the government shouldn't be expected to help American citizens trapped in a disaster area, because Katrina proved the government was incompetent and ill suited to that sort of thing. As far as domestic policy is concerned, the libertarians is the best opposition the Republicans could ever hope to have. In foreign policy, the Democrats is the best opposition the Republicans could hope to have. Grover has long been the chief lobbyist for the Muslim Brotherhood in America, so the libertarians' denial of Islamist-Salafist terrorism is also playing into his agenda.

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:22 pm

"So clearly, Jewishness IS an issue for you." It's a political issue in the respect that I expect politcally oriented Jews to be biased toward Israel, that includes potential prime minsters like Michael Howard. Yes, even those who criticize Israeli government policy lke Mr Janner in the UK still support the right of Israel to exist as a state which I do not. The fact there is so much Israei material around 9/11 is a VERY substantial issue in itself. Either someone is trying very hard to blame the Jews or it's highly suspicious. The 5 Mossad guys with the boss who fled to Israel would be enough for unbiased people to sit up straight. No Israelis were killed in the WTC according to the NY port authority who had the numbers for every nationality. "Odigo usually zealously protects the privacy of its registered users, said Macover, but in this case the company took the initiative to provide the law enforcement services with the originating Internet Presence address of the message, so the FBI could track down the Internet Service Provider, and the actual sender of the original message. " <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C">www.haaretzdaily.com/hase...ID=/has%5C</a> So who was it - we don't know, maybe it was a dog.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:45 pm

Well, the consensus, on this thread from everyone is that AT MOST, Mossad was a partner in this. Even Eric says this. So if it is exactly true as portrayed, should we be interested? Sure. I'm interested that Pakistani intel provided the money also. And that Britain provided a forged document about Nigerian Uranium. And that this document was likely produced by the p-2 lodge in Italy (I find that particularly interesting.) Sorry for no links on these...are folks aware of these? If so, I'll skip looking for links. But if Mossad was simply a PARTNER in this, why all the warnings to the FBI, so far not disputed? They would assume a) that the U.S. government knew and b)that they were supposed to keep it, you know, SECRET. But if we take Eric's correct view that one of these two is likely: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Either someone is trying very hard to blame the Jews or it's highly suspicious.<hr></blockquote> I think we should be open to the fact that there's a whole cottage industry out there that peddle half-truths about 9/11 by wrapping some factual material in anti-Semitic wrappers. We all agree, of course, that disinformation happens...you might even say it's what really happens. (Go to Hopsicker's site and check out John Gray's connections to both 9/11 "truth" and Adnon Koshoggi, arms dealer extraordinaire if you think I'm making this up.) Pointing consistently at Israel is handy if you are a U.S. intelligence agency that has an interest in obscuring your own role in these affairs. It deflects some attention and also discredits theories that get closer to the truth by tainting them with anti-Semitism. Since I believe Fox News was the main outlet for the original story, I think this theory gains some legs. Of course, we know people from the psych warfare department were "interning" at CNN some time ago, so no need to single out FOX. I don't know how to interpret the dancing Israelis, who, according to the article, kept moving around and dancing in different places. I mean, why not wear a sign around your neck: ARREST ME. What is that about? Mossad can pull of 9/11 but these guys can't keep from jumping around like idiots in three different places drawing attention to themselves? I'm pretty sure we don't know the whole story on that one. I'm not impressed with Odigo. It's evidence that one person knew, but gives us no clue as to who that is. As I said, since people like Ashcroft and Willie Brown got such warnings, we can't weigh its significance accurately. I'm also not impressed with the whole "box cutter" in the moving trucks deal. They were MOVING TRUCKS, and people often pack in BOXES. This is suggestive of nothing, especially since what would box cutters on a moving fan have to do with a plan to hijack planes with them? They all gathered at the moving company to pick up their boxcutters and some were left over? That's silliness. Explosive residue is more telling, I think. But telling of what, I couldn't say. Is the theory that the moving vans went to the World Trade Center and brought in the explosives? I think that there are some games being played with this info, for sure. I'll read the Rivero article and check the links and come back later on this.

by **robertdreed** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:34 am

I had a fairly comprehensive message just about composed and ready to post when poof! AOL signed me off. It kept delivering me these prompts for some reason about every 120 minutes, asking me if I wanted to stay signed in on-line...the fourth or fifth time, I guess I didn't answer quick enough- because it just arbitrarily logged me off-line. Needless to say, I'll be lobbying the host of this PC to change from this archaic arrangement. Most of the post wasn't that important, but I'll reconstruct it tomorrow night, just out of cussedness... I had just gotten to the point where I had begun expaining my initial reasoning for doubting the Official 9-11 Version- that I was totally ready to buy the idea that a small group of dedicated fanatic Muslim terrorists could have stayed below the radar in the structure of terror cells, only surfacing at the last instant upon getting their marching orders...after all, the USA is a big country, millions of immigrants, many host communities for Middle Eastern people where terrorists of that ethnicity and culture could blend in, even possible for isolated households to exist in urban and suburban neighborhoods coast to coast without attracting undue notice- as long as they kept their noses clean, paid their bills and steered clear of encounters with the law... Instead...well, just take a look at <a href="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/">www.cooperativeresearch.org/</a> and see what YOU find...

by **robertdreed** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:36 am

No, not 120 minutes...20 minutes... agh

by **israelirealities** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:11 am

maybe someone else can explain this riddle of the fiddle...

by **Dreams End** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:01 pm

IR...are you channeling "veritas" now? Didn't get your last post. I think from the articles I've now seen that we can't dispute: 5 guys were filming the WTC. (We don't know they started filming BEFORE the first plane hit, of course, since no one would have paid attention to that.) I think the case was made that they were Mossad (two of them, anyway). We saw this in Haaretz and also an American, Yiddish language paper. They were celebrating, or otherwise drawing attention to themselves. I.e. they were not acting in secret. I am confused by the van reports. I am having trouble understanding if there was more than one van. I don't see confirmation of much by way of explosives in the van. One report has them being seen in THREE different locations...a traveling "dancing Israeli" show? We also have several reports that Israel, and Mossad tried several different avenues to warn the U.S. of the upcoming attacks. We also, (I think?), know that there were a bunch of Israelis spying in the US, posing as art students. However, we also know that it is that spying that led directly to the warnings, so I think it is reasonable to assume that much of that spy network was, in fact, keeping tabs on Islamic "terrorist cells" or, at least, on Islamic organizations. If we take Hopsicker's information into account (I wish his site was better organized) and also Sander Hicks as reported by Qutb, and if we assume that at least SOME of the Israelis were spying on folks who were part of the 9/11 attacks (or being set up to be blamed for them...whichever), they would have discovered that this attack was imminent. They tried to warn folks who blew them off. They may also have started to figure out that some of these "terrorists" were being protected by the U.S. If they didn't know these things already (but surely they know of the "Muslim Brotherhood" and all those connections) then this would have been disturbing. I think this points to a theory that these 5 Israelis were not part of the plot in any direct way. Their absolute lack of concern for secrecy is one reason. They almost seemed to WANT to be seen. The fact that at least SOME Mossad types tried to warn US officials is another. Also, if they are actually COMPETENT spies, they would likely have found much of the information Hopsicker (and even some meddling FBI agents) had found about the flight school, etc. I think that after learning that kind of info, they may, indeed, have celebrated, or otherwise said "fuck you" to the U.S. government. Some of these same folks that the US was protecting here, you see, are also blowing things up in Israel. This doesn't excuse their behavior. In fact, if they were celebrating, they are assholes. I just don't think we can say much else about their role, however. "Boxcutters" on a moving fan are not surprising to me.... I'd be very curious, as we all would, to know how this plays out within intel circles. For example, I think it's quite clear about the connections among US intel, private "nazis" and Islamic (sic) fundamentalist terrorist networks, from bin Laden to the MB. So what is the reaction within Israeli intelligence to this. Certainly there's a great deal of cooperation with the US as well. Lots of games and brinksmanship and walking very fine lines, I assume.

by **israelirealities** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:46 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>IR...are you channeling "veritas" now? Didn't get your last post<hr></blockquote><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> I was actually at one point contemplating posing as "securitas", as befits my nationality...but my fine English would have turned me in. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>?), know that there were a bunch of Israelis spying in the US, posing as art students<hr></blockquote> we are all spies.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"> and you will soon be, too, if you maintain that government of yours too long. acutally, you are on your way to become a nation of spies as well. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>, if they are actually COMPETENT spies,<hr></blockquote> ah...competent... <blockquote>Quote:<hr> This doesn't excuse their behavior. In fact, if they were celebrating, they are assholes.<hr></blockquote> oh yes, they are.

by **jenz** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:18 pm

reading this a ? keeps plaguing me. why would mossad warn isreali nationals working in the towers (if they were involved/knew of attack danger )?

by **Qutb** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:04 pm

Well, Mossad is known for that "Jewish solidarity" thing. If they had tried to warn US intel but realized the Americans were going to let it happen, I can believe that the Mossad would secretely warn Israeli companies. I can also believe someone would do that to make the Israelis look suspect. If these Israeli agents were really celebrating and if the Mossad really warned Odigo/other Israeli companies but no one else, then they are indeed assholes, but relatively insignificant assholes compared to others involved.

by **israelirealities** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:28 pm

"jewish (or, israeli) solidarity" in Mossad terms is more often than not :"you stay away from my wife/child, i am the only one entitled to beat the shit out of them...". Its a fake concept, in most cases invoked to justify scapegoating and vicarious sacrifice within the community (like, you go jump on that land mine, for "jewish solidarity". Or, you die for all of us, in the name of "jewish solidarity". the invokers are the beneficiaries/strong and the "solidarized" are the weaker victims of society). pseudo political rubbish, coated in nice words. It bugs me that you people here really into that propaganda, there is some streak of antisemitism in that too. mystification. Every nation is the same, our political system, right now, is really not excelling, so all those embelishments are abused, of course, by the local PTB. Same as "pursuit of happiness" by GWB, talking to the Katrina victims. Mossad is an organization comprised of master manipulators who would otherwise be found in large mafias. Same as anywhere in the world.

by **Qutb** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:38 pm

IR, do you think they would have warned the Israeli companies in the Twin Towers, if they knew 9/11 was coming and the Americans would do nothing to stop it, or do you think it's a red herring?

by JD » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:08 pm

Interesting how everyone has forgotten that this incident happened only one month after 9/11. What it means isn't clear to me; it certainly does raise some question marks when considered with the Odigo warnings, dancing Israelis, etc of 9/11. To my knowledge no firm links have been established that the Israelis in question were acting in an official capacity; it is possible they were freelancers doing mercenary work or some such thing. If anyone knows what subsequently happened in this story I'd love an update. For any doubters, I can assure you that it did happen. I saw the Mexican newspaper headlines plus the Mexican police website that confirmed the two men were arrested. I can't find active links to either of those items anymore. The agents in question were subsequently released and the whole matter was swept under the carpet with essentially no coverage of the matter by Western Media. I thought the media silence of a significant event involving terrorism so close in time to 9/11 was perhaps even more anomolous than the event itself. Mexico Will Investigate If Israelis Were Terrorists By Alejandro Páez and Francisco Mejía From Crónica de Hoy, Mexico City, October 12, 2001 Unabridged Translation by The Narco News Bulletin -- They were armed with 9mm pistols, nine grenades, explosives, three detonators and 58 bullets -- They were detained by sugar industry workers in the Legislative Palace The Attorney General is investigating and interrogating two Israelis (one already a nationalized Mexican) who were detained in the House of Representatives Wednesday with two 9mm pistols, nine grenades, explosives, three detonators and 58 bullets, to determine if they belong to any group connected with terrorists or subversive groups. Salvador Gersson Smike, 34, a retired Israeli military official and nationalized Mexican, and Sar Ben Zui, 27, of Israeli nationality, were held yesterday in the installations of the metropolitan offices of the Attorney General, headed by the assistant attorney general for criminal process Gilberto Higuera Bernal. They were interrogated to clarify the source of the arms that they carried and to determine if they are guilty of a crime. Up until now the authorities have not declared about the status of investigation number PGR/11-15-01 and they will wait until tonight when the constitutional limit for determining the legal situation of the arrested parties expires. Both subjects were detained in the installations of the legislative palace of San Lazaro when a group of sugar industry workers that had met with the Speaker of the House, Beatriz Paredes, left to discuss their issues in the lobby and the two arrested persons arrived and began photographing them. This activity and the form in which they took the pictures (aiming their cameras below the belts of the workers) generated tension among the sugar workers who proceeded to demand their identification immediately. The Israelis identified themselves as press photographers, but they were not believed and the workers overcame them and then discovered that they were armed with pistols and other high caliber arms. The Isreali Embassy Will Monitor The Arrest Of Sar Ben Zui By Francisco Mejía Crónica de Hoy, Mexico City, October 13, 2001 Unabridged Translation by The Narco News Bulletin The Isreali Embassy in Mexico has confidence that its citizen, Sar Ben Zui, will be investigated in accordance with the law and the consul, Elias Luf, is following the investigations, his spokeswoman Hila Engelhart confirmed. She said that the Embassy does not regulate the entrance of Israelis in Mexico and doesn't know anything about what the arrested individual was doing. She said that the citizens of that country that come to Mexico, like all others from Israel, are not required to have any special visa for their travels. As will be remembered, Sar Ben Zui Was detained, with another subject, when both were allegedly armed inside the House of Representatives. According to statements by elements of the legislative security staff, the suspects carried arms, explosives, nine grenades, bullets and a detonator. In a telephone conversation the spokeswoman assured that the Embassy has confidence in the Mexican institutions to do what is necessary to enforce the law. "We are waiting to find out what happened." She informed that the Embassy doesn't have a program to monitor Israeli citizens who come to Mexico. In any case, she said, the Mexican secretary of state should have a registry of all persons who enter national territory. She indicated that relations between the two countries are very good and that tourism is promoted by both countries. Hila Engelhart recalled that it is not the first time that Mexico has detained an Israeli citizen in its country, however, she said that it is a situation that happens everywhere. She reported that both countries collaborate constantly to monitor exceptional movements that occur and said that "in the case of the arrested Israelis, we hope the situation with be resolved quickly." Finally, she said that the Israeli Ambassador is monitoring the arrests.

by **israelirealities** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:35 am

jenz, the only reason I can come with is that if some splinter in the israeli intel paramilitares community was involved somehow, they would very much be interested in avoiding an Israeli investigation. massive israeli deaths would bring too much attention from Israeli sources. methinks israeli paramlitares are more concerned with israeli public/law enforcement outrage than with any foreign invesigation or castigation. I .

Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and consp

Re: eric

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AOL bullshit

correction

Re: fiddlers on the roof

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towers victims

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Re: israeli solidarity

Re: israeli solidarity

Bomb Attempt on Mexican Congress

Re: towers victims

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