Controlled demolition: disinfo?

by **Pants Elk** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:27 am

One more time for the world (or at least some of it) - the towers did not fall in the pattern that "pancake" collapse would cause. Pancake collapse means one floor collapsing onto the floor below, weakening that floor to the point of collapse, then the combined weight of those floors weaking the next floor and collapsing it, und so weiter. The towers fell too fast for "pancake" collapse to be an option, at very nearly free fall speed. The only way they could have fallen at nearly free-fall speed (ie encountering no opposition from lower floors) is by controlled demolition. This argument is well documented and supported by engineers, architects, and physicists. The numbers are out there; the facts - physical facts, Newtonian physics - are out there. The masonry was PULVERISED - the effect of an explosion, not a collapse. And we're not even talking about total preparation being necessary for demolition, ie embedding ALL the explosives in the towers necessary for their collapse - we're talking about detonation - the placement of relatively small charges. Yes, you can argue against controlled demolition. You can also argue that apples don't fall from trees. This is, in effect, what America has been doing since the towers (all three of them, folks) were brought down. It's too late for truth, unfortunately. For America(ns), this is an old, old story. It's time to move on. Maybe into Iran. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pantselk>Pants Elk</A> at: 10/7/05 1:39 am

by **cortez** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:08 am

<img src="http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem4/1696-01.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <a href="http://images.indymedia.org/imc/ontario/wtc-2_demolition_waves.mpg">Video</a> Can someone explain the puff? It's where I have problems with the IHOP (pancake) theory

by **maggrwaggr** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:18 am

Nice picture. One of the best I've seen of the "puffs". The best video I've seen of it is in the "Loose Change" documentary. It clearly shows the systematic explosions leading the collapse -- BOOM BOOM BOOM right down the length of the building preceding the collapse. Pretty damning.

by **ewastud** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:11 am

I have read Griffin's excellent book New Pearl Harbor and found most of it very persuasive. The part of the book I was less persuaded about is the section where I had most personal knowledge and familiarity -- the structural collapse of the WTC buildings -- having studied and graduated with a bachelor's in architecture in the 70's and having spent part of a summer as an architectural intern re-designing a restaurant that burned down as a result of a kitchen fire. I know from professional knowledge and practical experience it does not take as much to cause a collapse of steel structure as many people would assume. Although wood is combustible, a heavy timber structure like a barn often has a better chance of surviving a fire than a steel structure. The temperature needs to rise to just a little over 1000 degrees Fahrenheit before it becomes plastic and loses most of its strength. When it loses its strength, it deflects; when it begins deflecting (changing its geometry) even just slightly, enormous additional stresses are induced leading to further deflection, and so on. It has a rapidly compounding effect. The WTC structure towers were designed to withstand the FORCE of a plane crash, but the designers probably did not anticipate that the force of the crash could cause the fire protective insulation to be disturbed and easily penetrated by the dynamic load of a plane at high speed. Once that fire protective insulation is penetrated, the structure then becomes extremely vulnerable. When I was an intern architect in the 1970's I observed the effects of a kitchen fire on a simple one-story restaurant outside of Chicago. The owner had skirted the building code by paying off an official and the firestop materials which were supposed to be installed separarating the kitchen from the dining room space were not installed. There was a space between the suspended tile ceiling and the roof which the hot fumes from the kitchen could flow through, and it did when a fire erupted in the kitchen. The hot fumes caused the steel roof structure to become plastic and twist and deflect and finally collapse. Thankfully, all the diners had evacuated some time before that happened, but it did not take but a matter of minutes for that to happen, let alone hours, and that was a one-story structure without the tremendous load of multiple stories above it weighing on it. I would not say that the WTC towers or WTC7 could not have been felled by explosives, but I would not jump to that conclusion without more conclusive evidence than I have seen thus far. However, I have not researched the issue very thoroughly, either. I do not see that the issue is central to the question of whether the 9/11 attack was an inside job. The author of New Pearl Harbor recognized that his hypothesis does not hinge on the accuracy of any one of his speculations -- but as a whole, the many facts it presents and circumstantial evidence point in that direction very strongly.

by **Pants Elk** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:14 am

Yup. Pretty damning. Every damn thing about 9/11, from the put options to the illegal removal of evidential rubble, is pretty damning. From the flight schools to the found passports. From the Bush-Bin Laden connection to Abu Ghraib. Every damn thing is damning. But it doesn't matter - the money's in the bank. That's OUR money, and THEIR bank. No amount of speculation, breast-beating, arguing, theorising, puffing and pancaking is going to change that. And to those who are doing a bit of "reasonable" chin-stroking at the "impossibility" of planting anything more dangerous than a sandwich in the towers: "Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne] According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down." (check the link at WRH) Shhh. A nation slumbers, and dreams dreams of a Great Leader, a Flag, and Mighty Battles to be fought. Dreams in the burning house. Shhh. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pantselk>Pants Elk</A> at: 10/7/05 3:24 am

by **firstimer** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:52 am

"When I was an intern architect in the 1970's I observed the effects of a kitchen fire on a simple one-story restaurant outside of Chicago. The owner had skirted the building code by paying off an official and the firestop materials which were supposed to be installed separarating the kitchen from the dining room space were not installed. There was a space between the suspended tile ceiling and the roof which the hot fumes from the kitchen could flow through, and it did when a fire erupted in the kitchen. The hot fumes caused the steel roof structure to become plastic and twist and deflect and finally collapse. Thankfully, all the diners had evacuated some time before that happened, but it did not take but a matter of minutes for that to happen" I'm sorry but i'm going to take the extra step and call bullshit on this story without a live link. There is a funny pattern to all of the naysayers not providing links to back their "stories" up, if they bother to tell them, make them up or imply them. And I know that I said I would Iig (ignore) QQTTUUBB, but I couldn't resist. You see ewastus smells like QTUB Another thing,. Why do all of the possible trolls get so irritated when people don't register? Is it easier for them to get the supposedly protected info and track to us other websites? I'm seeing some things that bother me. These positions are soon to be considered treason, blacklists are on there way. Remember the gov never had the full cooperation of the media like they do now. Go back to blacklisting era for a moment and contemplate the equivilant message we so openly discuss here in their era. <a href="http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/huac-main.html">www.writing.upenn.edu/~af...-main.html</a> yeah, now you get it, we are luod and clear honeypots provide lots of data for a national database. Who cares about the passive ones? Get the ones out there on the internet, they practically give out their vitals. Now Imagine not a specific targetting of people, but a more broad approach that chills/stifles/ or even randomly harasses target groups based on data mining. How many major grassroots organizers hit DC last month for the protest. Tuleremia seems like a great marker. After the protest, who has to go see the doctor? their illness is reported to the CDC anonomously for things like flu, but their purchases at the drug stores are not. cross reference this data: <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/NCHS_Survey_Matrix.pdf">www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/NCH...Matrix.pdf</a> with drug store purchases and get credit card #' and thus ssn's of protestors that were susceptable to norwalk, tuleremia or whatever they tag you with since you bought pepto bismal, or nyquil flu juice in a week you've got a pretty good list of perps. I'm sure they have it doen better than that. When your own people are the enemy threatening to overthrow you and your gov, petty nuisances like posse comitatus, search and seizure, privacy, and seperation of powers become ridiculous: heres a little reminder of the setup: <a href="http://graham.main.nc.us/~bhammel/GOV/coup.html">graham.main.nc.us/~bhammel/GOV/coup.html</a> the stakes are high and our data calls out to those in power. I'm gonna run and hide now, because my ramblings make no sense! firstimer

by **michael meiring** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:08 am

To Cortez. about your picture, that 'phuff' of smoke, well as 'atta' flew the plane in, on impact, atta's passport which he didant need for an internal flight, flew out of his top pocket at 500 mph, went down 30 floors and thats the impact of his passport flying out of the building to be found intact 20 blocks away. Thats as plausable as the rest of the official conspiracy theories dished out by these official 'investigations' isant it.

by **Byrne** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:32 am

I could go on & dig up research papers & compile quotes by professional engineers etc, historical case studies, but I'm bored now. Some people will never be convinced whatever hard or circumstancial evidence is presented. Well, I've learnt something (about the Official Theory being published on 9/13/01) whilst reponding to the points here. So it's made my belief stronger. There's an interesting post (Oct 6 2005, 04:28 PM) on the Physic.org forum topic on the WTC collapse. It's from a poster named a__ht, who (in his own words) works at the public relations department of the American Society of Civil Engineers. His quote (reproduced below) was in respone to the post from 'farang' (which I posted here earlier). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am not an Israely information agent, and I take offense. I work at the American society of civil engineer, an office which contributed massively at the NIST report. I work at the public relation department, so if I seem angry when I post, its because my *** is on the line; they want to shut down our department because of people like you who oppose the official version. Politicians don't want another scandal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thiis is the reason, I believe, why a lot of people who have an 'inkling' of, or were closely 'caught up' (but not implicated) in, the complicity view things, i.e. " I'd better keep my mouth shut else I'll be out of a job or a career. Also, as I've said before, any sggestion that there was any connivance in any respect smacks of disloyalty to the good 'ol US of A. The quote above seems to me such an example with respect to the controlled demolition argument.

by **Qutb** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:38 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm sorry but i'm going to take the extra step and call bullshit on this story without a live link. There is a funny pattern to all of the naysayers not providing links to back their "stories" up, if they bother to tell them, make them up or imply them. And I know that I said I would Iig (ignore) QQTTUUBB, but I couldn't resist. You see ewastus smells like QTUB Another thing,. Why do all of the possible trolls get so irritated when people don't register? Is it easier for them to get the supposedly protected info and track to us other websites? I'm seeing some things that bother me. These positions are soon to be considered treason, blacklists are on there way. Remember the gov never had the full cooperation of the media like they do now. Go back to blacklisting era for a moment and contemplate the equivilant message we so openly discuss here in their era.<hr></blockquote> You're annoying me, firsttimer. The point I was trying to make about you not having registered is that you're just an occasional visitor here, and yet you use one of your first posts to accuse regular posters of being government agents. I knew when I wrote it, though, that you would think I was collecting information about you. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> A general word of advice: most people find it very difficult to conduct a discussion with someone who, when confronted with a counterargument, immediately assumes that the person making the argument is out to collect personal information about them in order to take them away to a FEMA camp at a later date. And now, inevitably, you believe I and ewastud are the same person, because we both don't agree with you (we're "naysayers", as you put it), and there can't possibly be more than one person in the world who doesn't agree with you, right? You're funny, too - you "call bullshit" on ewastud's story, because he/she doesn't have a "live link" to her story, a story relating her own personal experience. Then you imply that he/she's making it up: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>There is a funny pattern to all of the naysayers not providing links to back their "stories" up, if they bother to tell them, make them up or imply them<hr></blockquote> I'm not even going to comment on the irony of you having called me "a possible troll". Our exchange ends here. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Dreams End** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:02 am

firsttimer, Qutb's been posting substantive, detailed, linked posts here for quite long time on many different subjects. You on the other hand are the one flinging accusations right off the bat. Now, if I could just find an internet dictionary and look up the definition of troll..... Someone else said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I would not jump to that conclusion without more conclusive evidence than I have seen thus far.<hr></blockquote> No problem. I'll just go grab all the analysis done on the steel beams by the engine..... What? They shipped it all off for scrap without analysis? Gosh darn it, yet another "incompetent" move by the authorities. Finally, 9/11 case does not rise or fall on CD...and though it seems to me there were explosives, since they shipped off the steel there's going to be no extra evidence coming in. On the other hand, there are a lot of human elements involved in 9/11 and some of them are already starting to talk. And in a twisted sort of hope, if there really is a war between elements of the military, intelligence and the Bushies, who knows what might get leaked.

by **Qutb** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:14 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>No problem. I'll just go grab all the analysis done on the steel beams by the engine..... What? They shipped it all off for scrap without analysis? <hr></blockquote> Not all of it, Dreams. I refer you to the NG docu, in which a scientist inspects some of the steel beams and explains his theory about what happened to it. You can see that the fireproofing is mostly gone and that the beams are bent, buckled. The floor system, supported with trusses in order to erect the towers quickly, are theorized to have been their achilles heel causing the collapse. A fire service guy says that there is a saying in the fire service: "don't trust trusses", because they FAIL during fire. Apparently, if you damage even a small part of it, the whole system fails. An MIT professor demonstrates how this works with a miniature model heated from below with a gas burner. You really should see that, before you put all your chips on CD. There's a link to a site where you can download it in one of my posts above. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Dreams End** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:08 pm

Would each of them on each floor have to be weakened? Or is the theory that the impact of the above floor is enough to jar loose the trusses in the floor below? And since the main fire went down the elevator shaft, shouldn't the collapse have gone from the bottom up and not the top down?

by **Qutb** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:09 pm

The documentary also shows photographic evidence of the sad state of the fireproofing in the mid-90s, when it was inspected. Much of it was already missing. And the trusses were less adequately fireproofed in the south tower - hence its earlier collapse (the north tower also stood longer because it was hit square on and thus could better redestribute the loads, and because it had leass weight above the point of impact). Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Qutb** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:29 pm

The floors provided stability to the columns, keeping them from buckling under the gravitational load. With large parts of many of the floors removed, that stability is gone, and the structure can't support nearly as much weight. The columns buckle, and the tower collapses. This, too, is demonstrated with a miniature model in the documentary. Apparently, in the north tower, the core columns gave way first. Once the top floors start falling, the momentum of the falling structure smashes each floor in turn - the pancake theory. It seems faily simple and straightforward to me, but as I've repeatedly stressed, I'I don't know much about structural engineering. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Qutb** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:41 pm

Regarding "the towers were built to withstand being hit by a 707": Leslie K. Robertson, one of the structural engineers who worked on the WTC, explains in the documentary that they were envisioning a 707 flying low and slow, lost in the fog. He correctly points out that the energy contained in a moving object, such as an airplane, is proportional to the square of its velocity - double the velocity, and you have four times the energy. The towers were not built to withstand the impact of an airliner flying at near their maximum speed. Mr Roberston says: "The energy posed on the building by the 767 was very substantially more than the energy we had assumed in the design". He also says: "To the best of my knowledge, the considerations of the fuel in the airplanes, in terms of an explosion or a great fire, was not considered (...) and further, had it been considered, it would have proved to be impossible to deal with it". Regarding "there was no raging inferno": John A. Jonas, battalion chief, NYC Fire Department, says: "We're looking at this, and we see smoke issuing under pressure, for at least the top 20 floors, maybe more (...) you're looking at 20 acres of fire". Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

Controlled demolition: disinfo?

Pancakes and waffles

Re: Pancakes and waffles

Yeah, the puff --

Re: Yeah, the puff --

Re: Yeah, the puff --

our data calls out to those in power

explaining the phuff

Pants Elk, your post just about sums it up.......

Re: our data calls out to those in power

Re: our data calls out to those in power

Re: our data calls out to those in power

Re: our data calls out to those in power

Re: our data calls out to those in power

Re: our data calls out to those in power

Re: our data calls out to those in power

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