Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and consp

by **Qutb** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:35 pm

From filmmaker Marc Levin's "Protocols of Zion" <a href="http://thinkfilm.blogs.com/protocols_of_zion/" target="top">blog</a>. I disagree somewhat with his take on 9/11, but he makes many good points. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>After 9/11 many asked, “Who benefited?” and then answered “American global capitalists, and the Israelis.” Then they point to a few anecdotes that have reinforced speculation about an Israeli connection. The Israeli shipping company Zim Navigational allegedly moved out of the WTC right before 9/11. Reportedly two workers of the Israeli company Odigo received text messages warning of an attack on the WTC two hours before. In New Jersey, 5 Israelis were seen photographing and allegedly celebrating as the Twin Towers collapsed. I talked to witnesses who saw the 5 Israelis and the NJ police officer who stopped their van. They were taken into custody, questioned and held for 10 weeks. They were eventually cleared by the FBI of any involvement in 9/11 and deported back to Israel on immigration violations. On Israeli TV, they claimed they were merely taking pictures of a historic event. I included this sequence in the movie because I wanted to show how a real incident that raised legitimate questions could quickly mutate into so called “evidence” that the Israelis were behind the attack and not Al Qaeda. There were even some claiming the 5 Israelis were controlling the planes by remote control from New Jersey. I believe the 9/11 attack was a terrorist conspiracy planned by Osama Bin Laden, as he bragged on video tape, and carried out by his Al Qaeda operatives. I believe the evidence is overwhelming. But I’m willing to acknowledge that there are many unanswered questions surrounding 9/11 and that like the JFK assassination, we will be discussing and debating what really happened for years to come. So I encourage independent investigators to uncover and expose. But beware. Getting lost in all the misinformation and disinformation and arguing this theory versus that can end up being a diversion in itself. It’s easy to get lost in the ever spiraling vortex of facts which can atomize and fracture into factoids leading deeper and deeper down a tunnel with no light at the end – this is the proverbial conspiracy black hole. Tracking the contours of hidden power can be intoxicating and addictive – it provides an exciting narrative to string many disparate ideas and incidents and characters together - it can be used to buttress one’s beliefs and challenge others and, like religion, it can be preached with conviction and self righteousness. We all want explanations we can understand. But when we embrace certitude and lose the mystery we are in danger of losing a lot more. I prefer approaching the world of conspiracy more like an investigative art form. Check out the drawings of the artist Mark Lombardi. (http://www.pierogi2000.com/flatfile/lombardi.html) They look like sea charts or constellations, or even the sub atomic chain reactions in a nuclear bubble chamber. They chart the overlapping and competing flow of influence and money through convoluted political and corporate connections creating a kind of architecture of covert knowledge. Maybe this is what conspiracies really look like. They are maps of the unseen nexus between the political, corporate, and criminal powers. But it’s not a picture of the umbrella man on the grassy knoll or the cartoon-like general from the Pentagon calling someone at the CIA who calls the cops in Dallas. Or the Protocols with 12 Elders of Zion in a graveyard or cave somewhere deliberating, “Monday we start the bank run, Tuesday the depression, Wednesday the assassination, Thursday the coup and Friday the war ...” Conspiracy freaks endow the ruling elite with superhuman powers – like comic superheroes – when the truth is these folks screw up and spend much of their time and energy covering up their mistakes. The “Wizard of Oz” is much closer to the truth. Pull back the curtain and you see a fumbling charlatan grabbing levers, pushing buttons and scrambling to avoid detection. It’s like the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961 or Baghdad today. The operation is so ill conceived and mishandled that it crashes and everyone has to cover up how it happened in the first place. The cover up is the conspiracy. You want to tell me the US government planned 9/11 to justify its war on terror and the invasion of Iraq? I hear you and say “NO!” Even if they wanted to, they are incapable. They might have exploited this tragedy for their own political ends, but there’s no way they pulled off such a premeditated plot. There’s ample evidence of intelligence failures and incompetence. If there’s a conspiracy it’s more likely to be to cover up any warnings they ignored or miscalculations they made that could have prevented the attack. On a historical level you could say, yes, there are US fingerprints on the 9/11 tragedy, in the sense that we helped create the Afghan Mujahadeen and gave them the money, arms and training they needed to fight the Soviets, never figuring they’d turn all that expertise in killing and terrorizing against us. Yes, at one time Osama, the Taliban and Saddam all worked with us. Blowback is the unintended consequences of covert ops, it’s the payback. In that sense one could argue that 9/11 was blowback. And if there is a grand universal conspiracy, it is simply the conspiracy of all elites to cover up the truth. That is the constant through history and the very nature of power. In that sense all who doubt and question the official story are right on. Don’t believe the government or the mainstream media. Don’t believe the hype. But as you search for the truth don’t go back to the recycled garbage of the middle ages or the propaganda of the Czar or the Nazis. So let’s all breathe together and envision something bold and empowering. Don’t close your eyes. Open them. The truth should not set us back, it should set us free. Keep it open. Marc <hr></blockquote> <a href="http://www.blowbackproductions.com/" target="top">www.blowbackproductions.com/</a> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=qutb>Qutb</A> at: 11/13/05 6:36 pm

by **dbeach** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:49 pm

osama did do it ... for his CIA rogue handlers and the power elites that pay his salary... os ama is a company man and there is no leaving the company

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:07 pm

and his sense that conspiracies map "the unseen nexus between the political, corporate, and criminal powers." But then he writes: "You want to tell me the US government planned 9/11 to justify its war on terror and the invasion of Iraq? I hear you and say “NO!” Even if they wanted to, they are incapable." By his own definition, there is not a correspondence between the government and the conspirators. And is the "unseen nexus" less capable of pulling it off than an unassisted adversary called al Qaeda? Who quashed Able Danger? Who gagged Sibel Edmonds? Who scheduled the wargames? And so on.

by **Dreams End** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:31 pm

It's a great warning, but he is rather naive, I think. Still, given that he just spent so much time looking at the P of Z and all the conspiracy crap that links back to it, I guess you can't blame him. It's tough not to chuck it all in and say it's garbage...which, I think, is the point of all that stuff in the first place.

by **Qutb** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:34 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>By his own definition, there is not a correspondence between the government and the conspirators. And is the "unseen nexus" less capable of pulling it off than an unassisted adversary called al Qaeda? Who quashed Able Danger? Who gagged Sibel Edmonds? Who scheduled the wargames? And so on.<hr></blockquote> Yes, I don't know if that's disingenous, or if he just haven't researched it sufficiently, or if he's come to a different conclusion for some other reason. He does say there are many "unanswered questions" that should be investigated further.

by **Homeless Halo** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:48 pm

He would be correct, in a strictly technical way to say that "the government" couldn't do something like that. That is, literally, its functions prohibit it from making an informed, purposeful choice to falsify evidence to generate a war. Theoretically, it is at the military/government's DISADVANTAGE to wage a war, risking loss of personnel, resources, funding, and public support if the war is ill-advised or badly managed, allowing only the "not government" parts to profit. The problem comes in by allowing the "not government" parts any participation in government agencies, whether traditional lobbying, or in the case of many, people who work for both war planners and war profiteers, neither of which would be capable of making such a huge mistake without the collaboration of the other. As a Psy-op this would take a couple tens of millions of dollars and about 50 people to pull off, once you had a few "in" people in military/policy/beuracratic positions. This is largely due to the "compartmentalization" procedures of insitituions, mostly for cost benefits, and also because it ALLOWS for such activities. I don't think this is "official" government work. In the sense that, for example the man on the advertisements for the new "America's Most Wanted" TV episode is supposedly a police officer wanted for child sex crimes and killing his wife. AMW wouldn't say "the police" is suspected of rape and murder. In the same sense "the government" isn't suspsected of warmongering and lying, only the specific people who are/may be involved in such activities. Normally forensic evidence, motive(cui bono?), timing, and circumstatial evidence to lead to the establishment of "suspicion" for crimes. In the case of those such as PNAC, there are precedents for suspecting them of subversion. It would also be common, in such Psy-Ops, for "outside" black allies to do the actual dirty work, i.e. Al Quaeda. This is unfortunate, and it hurts the "real" government/military greatly while leaving the "Criminal" elements unscathed. Blood money without having to do any blood letting yourself. I am careful not to characterize "abstract" entitities like "government" or "agencies" as being "suspect" because I have found that the majority of these people who fit that description are self-sacraficing, "normal" people, like me, who are merely trying to survive. They know nothing of these "black" activities, as they are only allowed knowledge of their "compartment". Most of them are doing what they think is best to make the world better for us, soldiers for example. It is the responsiblity of "us" and "governments" to protect them.

by **Qutb** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:44 pm

Good points, Halo. If Levin means that the "government", meaning the formal organizations, couldn't orchestrate and execute 9/11 and then cover it up, then I agree with him. I think it's mainly the hardcore "mihop" theories he's rejecting, as do I. But since he's sufficiently "parapolitically concious" to acknowledge the existence of these "unseen nexuses", then it should be easy to see those around 9/11. I agree with him that the evidence points to "al-Qaida"/al-Ikhwan as perpetrators, but the Muslim Brothers hardly live in an isolated world of their own. And since he acknowledges that it must have been difficult to pull off 9/11, too difficult for "the government", then perhaps there's reason to think that the Brothers got a little help?

by **FourthBase** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:22 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I talked to witnesses who saw the 5 Israelis and the NJ police officer who stopped their van. They were taken into custody, questioned and held for 10 weeks. They were eventually cleared by the FBI of any involvement in 9/11 and deported back to Israel on immigration violations. On Israeli TV, they claimed they were merely taking pictures of a historic event. I included this sequence in the movie because I wanted to show how a real incident that raised legitimate questions could quickly mutate into so called “evidence” that the Israelis were behind the attack and not Al Qaeda. There were even some claiming the 5 Israelis were controlling the planes by remote control from New Jersey.<hr></blockquote> Fucking bullshit, the Israelis admitted to Forward + ABC that they were operatives, and that their "purpose was to record the event". Too late to stuff that cat in the bag. They were seen celebrating. They were caught with suspicious materials in the van. There really was a sprawling spy ring which really did sell remote control toys at malls and trespass military installations among other things. There really was a spy cell tailing the "hijackers" in Hollywood, Florida. There really was an elite Israeli anti-terrorist commando sitting directly in front of and directly behind "hijackers" on Flight 11. Real incidents, not mutants. I have no sympathy for racist anti-semites. I have equally little sympathy for manipulative pro-semites.

by **FourthBase** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:27 am

Double post. Just to make this clear: An Israeli involvement in 9/11 does not necessarily mean a wholly negative involvement. It takes all types of right-wingers to pull off a 9/11, including Israeli ones. OTOH, maybe there was an Israeli faction that wanted to disrupt the plot but didn't know the entire scope of the plot. E.g., thinking that only Flight 11 was to be hijacked, planting Lewin there to be a hero and thwart the terror. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 11/13/05 9:34 pm

by **dbeach** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:36 am

"There really was a sprawling spy ring which really did sell remote control toys at malls " I have a long habit of asking people where they are from when I hear their accents [married to a Russki] We were at the mall in 2002 and bought some of those toy cars which BTW were broke in about 1 hr..The vendors said when I asked that they were from Israel and I found that odd cuz ..well it was the first time I met any mall vendors from Israel.. I thought that they looked like Arabs.. Now this means very little BUT I wonder how easy it is to confuse on appearances..by looking and making a guess... So if this was a mossad spy ring selling remote control toys it may have been still using the same MO after 9/11??? This site is banned at DU <a href="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html">www.whatreallyhappened.co...aelis.html</a> "On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)" A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11. The men set up cameras by the Hudson River and trained them on the twin towers. (1) Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming "middle-eastern" men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2) "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3) [T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4) Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6) "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park." (7) One anonymous phone call to the authorities actually led them to close down all of New York's bridges and tunnels. The mystery caller told the 9-1-1 dispatcher that a group of Palestinians were mixing a bomb inside of a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel. Here's the transcript from NBC News: Dispatcher: Jersey City police. Caller: Yes, we have a white van, 2 or 3 guys in there, they look like Palestinians and going around a building. Caller: There's a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform. Dispatcher: He has what? Caller: He's dressed like an Arab. (<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> (*Writer's note: Why would this mystery caller specifically say that these "Arabs" were Palestinians? How would he know that? Palestinians usually dress in western style clothes, not "sheikh uniforms")"

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:39 am

<a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1433886">www.democraticunderground...04x1433886</a> Minstrel Boy 9. Atta was fluent in at least Arabic, English, German, French and Hebrew. 10. One day when Atta was rummaging through his flight bag, Keller got a look inside. Her words: "The thing the FBI was most interested in was his pilot bag. They asked about it a lot. He kept it locked, and they wanted to know whether I had ever seen anything in it. I told them yes. One day he opened it briefly, and there were a lot of papers in it, and there was a blue log book in a different language. Mohamed was fluent in almost any language you can think of. He had a kind of Daytimer in there, too. And a folder with all these different ID’s in it. And that’s when I saw one – because it fell out – a little blue and white thing the size of a driver’s license. It had his picture on it, and it looked like a mug shot, or a prison shot. And it didn’t look like him, and I asked him, 'Who is this?' "And he said, 'that’s me.' He told me it had been taken back when he was in some kind of militia-type deal, like a military-type deal, he said. He compared it to our military only they teach you different tactics. He didn’t elaborate. "He didn’t say where it was from, either. But the writing looked like a cross between Hebrew and Arabic, those frilly little lines. He told me he spoke Hebrew. I said bullshit. So he started speaking it, and I guess he did. "He told me that he went to different countries and studied. He had pilot’s license from several different countries. But all the pictures looked different. All the names were different. He had a license to fly from just about every country he had been to. He went to pilot’s school in all these countries." Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eric144>eric144</A> at: 11/13/05 10:03 pm

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:41 am

I think they might have been there to set off the detonaters in the towers, starting where the planes hit (which they could see from where they were). They were obviously having a SERIOUS celebration about something. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eric144>eric144</A> at: 11/13/05 10:03 pm

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:08 am

According to <a href="http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/news2.html">The Forward</a>, "one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, [said] the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front." Dominik Suter, the owner of Urban Movers, left the US for Israel "on or about September 14, 2001," according to the New Jersey Division of Consumer affairs, leaving no one acting as an agent for his business. There's more that strongly suggests this was part of a surveillance mission. My suspicion is it was one contracted out to a Mossad faction by its US counterparts to monitor their al Qaeda patsies.

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:28 am

What amazing people these Mossad guys are. They wouldn't let those A-rabs out of their sight for a moment, even turning up in New Jersey to watch their boys commit suicide. That's what I call commitment. In my view, it's likely Mossad carried out the planning and operation for 9/11. They wouldn't have delegated anything to American wage slaves apart from the war games, NORAD stuff in case they f*cked up which of course they inevitably did. The FAA and NORAd had to lie through their teeth to the 9/11 commision. If it had been real, they'd have been shot as traitors. Senator Mark Dayton's complaints about the norad/faa evidence to the 9-11 commission Report video (excellent) <a href="http://www.erichufschmid.net/senDayton.htm">www.erichufschmid.net/senDayton.htm</a>

by **FourthBase** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:45 am

Mossad as the 9/11 perps is like the Mafia as the JFK perps.

Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and consp

Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and consp

Re: Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and c

I like that he namechecks Lombardi

Re: I like that he namechecks Lombardi

Re: I like that he namechecks Lombardi

re: the government

Qutb

Re: Qutb

Re: Qutb

toys

Mohamed Atta was fluent in Hebrew

5 Israelis

the white van

Re: the white van

Re: the white van

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