9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

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9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby so buttons » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:02 am

more fair and balanced reporting from the MSM...<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/08/06/sept11.theories.ap/index.html">www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATIO...index.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>9/11 conspiracy theorists energized</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Five years later, purveyors claim academic momentum</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>Sunday, August 6, 2006; Posted: 8:46 p.m. EDT (00:46 GMT) <br><br>(AP) -- Kevin Barrett believes the U.S. government might have destroyed the World Trade Center. Steven Jones is researching what he calls evidence that the twin towers were brought down by explosives detonated inside them, not by hijacked airliners.<br><br>These men aren't uneducated junk scientists: Barrett will teach a class on Islam at the University of Wisconsin this fall, over the protests of more than 60 state legislators. Jones is a tenured physicist at Brigham Young University whose mainstream academic job has made him a hero to conspiracy theorists.<br><br>Five years after the terrorist attacks, a community that believes <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>widely discredited </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> ideas about what happened on September 11, 2001, persists and even thrives. Members trade their ideas on the Internet and in self-published papers and in books. About 500 of them attended a recent conference in Chicago, Illinois.<br><br>The movement claims to be drawing fresh energy and credibility from a recently formed group called Scholars for 9/11 Truth.<br><br>The organization says publicity over Barrett's case has helped boost membership to about 75 academics. They are a tiny minority of the 1 million part- and full-time faculty nationwide, and some have no university affiliation. Most aren't experts in relevant fields. <br><br>But some are well educated, with degrees from elite universities such as Princeton and Stanford and jobs at schools including Rice, Indiana and the University of Texas.<br><br>"Things are happening," said co-founder James Fetzer, a retired philosophy professor at the University of Minnesota Duluth, who maintains, among other claims, that some of the hijackers are still alive. "We're going to continue to do this. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Our role is to establish what really happened on 9/11."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>What really happened, the national September 11 commission concluded after 1,200 interviews, was that hijackers crashed planes into the twin towers. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>The National Institute of Standards and Technology, a government agency, filed 10,000 pages of reports that found fires caused by the crashing planes were more than sufficient to collapse the buildings.<br><br>The scholars' group rejects those conclusions. Their Web site contends the government has been dishonest. <br><br>It adds: the "World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions" and "the government not only permitted 9/11 to occur but may even have orchestrated these events to facilitate its political agenda."<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The standards and technology institute, and many mainstream scientists, won't debate conspiracy theorists, saying they don't want to lend them unwarranted credibility</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.<br><br>'It's not really science'<br>But some worry the academic background of the group could do that anyway.<br><br>Members of the conspiracy community "practically worship the ground [Jones] walks on because he's seen as a scientist who is preaching to their side," said FR Greening, a Canadian chemist who has written several papers rebutting the science used by September 11 conspiracy theorists. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"It's science, but it's politically motivated. It's science with an ax to grind, and therefore it's not really science."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Faculty can express any opinion outside the classroom, said Roger Bowen, general secretary of the American Association of University Professors. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>However, "with academic freedom comes academic responsibility. And that requires them to teach the truth of their discipline, and the truth does not include conspiracy theories, or flat Earth theories, or Holocaust denial theories."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Members of the group don't consider themselves extremists. They simply believe the government's investigation was inadequate, and maintain that questioning widely held assumptions has been part of the job of scholars for centuries.<br><br>"Tenure gives you a secure position where you can engage in controversial issues," Fetzer said. "That's what you should be doing."<br><br>But when asked what did happen in 2001, members often step outside the rigorous, data-based culture of the academy and defer to their own instincts.<br><br>Daniel Orr, a Princeton Ph.D. and widely published retired economics chair at the University of Illinois, said he knew instantly from watching the towers fall that they had been blown apart by explosives. He was reminded of watching an old housing project being destroyed in St. Louis, Missouri.<br><br>David Gabbard, an East Carolina education professor, acknowledges this isn't his field, but says "I'm smart enough to know ... that fire from airplanes can't melt steel."<br><br>When they do cite evidence, critics such as Greening contend it's junk science from fellow conspiracy theorists, dressed up in the language and format of real research to give it a sense of credibility.<br><br>Ex-professor doubts government<br>Jones focuses on the relatively narrow question of whether molten metal present at the World Trade Center site after the attacks is evidence that a high-temperature incendiary called thermite, which can be used to weld or cut metal, was involved in the towers' destruction. <br><br>He concludes thermite was present, throwing the government's entire explanation into question and suggesting someone might have used explosives to bring down the towers.<br><br>"I have not run into many who have read my paper and said it's just all hogwash," Jones said.<br><br>Judy Wood, until recently an assistant professor of mechanical engineering at Clemson University, has been cited by conspiracy theorists for her arguments the buildings could not have collapsed as quickly as they did unless explosives were used.<br><br>"If the U.S. government is lying about how the buildings came down, anything else they say cannot be believed," she said. "So why would they want to tell us an incorrect story if they weren't part of it?"<br><br>In fact, say Greening and other experts, the molten metal Jones cites was most likely aluminum from the planes, and any number of explanations are more likely than thermite.<br><br>And the National Institute of Standards and Technology's report describes how the buildings collapsed from the inside in a chain reaction once the floors began falling.<br><br>"We respect the opinions of others, but we just didn't see any evidence of what people are claiming," institute spokesman Michael Newman said.<br><br>Wisconsin officials say they do not endorse the views of Barrett, an adjunct, but after investigating concluded he would handle the material responsibly in the classroom.<br><br>That didn't mollify many state legislators.<br><br>"The general public from Maine to Oregon knows why the trade towers went down," said state Rep. Stephen Nass, a Republican. "It's not a matter of unpopular ideas; it's a matter of quality education and giving students their money's worth in the classroom."<br><br>In a July 20 letter obtained by The Associated Press in an open records request, Wisconsin Provost Patrick Farrell warned Barrett to tone down his publicity seeking, and said he would reconsider allowing Barrett to teach if he continued to identify himself with the university in his political messages.<br><br>BYU's physics department and engineering school have issued statements distancing themselves from Jones' work, but he says they have not interfered.<br><br>At Clemson, Wood did not receive tenure last year, but her former department chair, Imtiaz ul Haque, denies her accusation that it was at least partly because of her September 11 views.<br><br>"Are you blackballed for delving into this topic? Oh yes," Wood said. "And that is why there are so few who do. Most contracts have something to do with some government research lab. So what would that do to you? The consequences are too great for a career. But I made the choice that truth was more important."<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"If we're in higher education to be trying to encourage critical thinking," Wood says, "why would we say 'believe this because everybody else does?'"</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><br>Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sobuttons@rigorousintuition>so buttons</A> at: 8/6/06 10:03 pm<br></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby HMKGrey » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:38 am

It's just face-value reporting rubbish as usual. CNN don't even enter the debate really. <br><br>They sort of damn it with faint respect. Like the kid who came in last getting the biggest round of applause from the gathered parents. <br><br>Still, just reporting it and naming some names like Fetzer and Jones in this Google Age will inspire a lot of searches and so on. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby so buttons » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:05 am

i don't regard cnn as any sort of reputable news source either, but this was, i suppose, an uniquely interesting read as it was the first piece of such rubbish i read with an "area 911" mindset. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby SpamDestroyer001 » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:13 am

Flat-Earth and Holocaust denial theories? WTF? I mean seriously. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby bvonahsen » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:06 am

What I don't understand is how anyone can see the footage of the towers and building seven collapsing and <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>not</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> see that they were "pulled". It's so obvious. If the WTC towers really did fall the way they say they did, by weakened metal finally giving way, then they ought to have toppled in a haphazzard manner. With entire sections falling this way then that all over the place instead of in a neat little pile. That never happens in nature. Only when man plans it out thoughtfully do one hundred story buildings fall so carefully. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby KeenInsight » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:53 am

Exactly. The so called "pan-cake" theory makes no sense whatsoever. As you said, the WTC buildings would have gone awry and strewn all over the place. If they were subject to extreme structural damage, they could have gone anywhere, causing massive damage to the surrounding buildings. Instead, only minimal damage was caused (excluding WTC 7, as it was pulled), and everything fell into a "neat" pile.<br><br>The evidence is RIGHT there in front of everyone's eyes! <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby FourthBase » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:58 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I don't understand is how anyone can see the footage of the towers and building seven collapsing and not see that they were "pulled". It's so obvious. If the WTC towers really did fall the way they say they did, by weakened metal finally giving way, then they ought to have toppled in a haphazzard manner. With entire sections falling this way then that all over the place instead of in a neat little pile. That never happens in nature. Only when man plans it out thoughtfully do one hundred story buildings fall so carefully.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>WTC2 had a large intact portion fall diagonally to the side in a toppling manner, then gravity took hold. Thousands of tons are going to want to go down, not to the side, so it's quite remarkable that there was any toppling at all. As for the "neat" and "little" pile, see below. The towers did not fall carefully. AT ALL.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Exactly. The so called "pan-cake" theory makes no sense whatsoever. As you said, the WTC buildings would have gone awry and strewn all over the place. If they were subject to extreme structural damage, they could have gone anywhere, causing massive damage to the surrounding buildings. Instead, only minimal damage was caused (excluding WTC 7, as it was pulled), and everything fell into a "neat" pile.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The two towers DID go awry and get strewn about.<br>The buildings in the vicinity were f***ing destroyed.<br>The pile left was IN NO WAY "neat".<br><br>I have problem with the pancake theory, too...<br>But this misrepresentation of the collapse has to stop.<br><br>WTC7 is a different subject, though.<br>Totally looks like a controlled collapse. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 8/7/06 2:01 am<br></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby FourthBase » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:19 am

<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://brainwavez.net/wtc/tower2collapse.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://philadelphia-eagles.net/history/2001/war/wtc_collapse.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.niftythings.org/usattack/wtc_collapse/wtc44.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~twyeld/ftp/WTC_collapse/wtc_collapse2%5b1%5d.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br>Theorize whatever, but don't misrepresent what happened. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 8/7/06 2:20 am<br></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby BannedfromDU » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:29 am

QUICKVOTE on left column-<br><br>Do you believe alternative theories for the September 11, 2001, attacks are credible?<br><br>Yes<br>58%<br>1523 votes<br><br>No<br>42%<br>1109 votes<br><br><br>Total: 2632 votes <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby KeenInsight » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:40 am

@Fourthbase: Perhaps I should clarify. I'd classify the trade tower's collapse as "neat" for skyscrapers. And yes, I know debris went everywhere. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby FourthBase » Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:14 am

OK, fair enough. But when have other skyscrapers totally collapsed? When have skyscrapers built like the WTC towers totally collapsed? What kind of collapse would you expect, if any? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby xsic bastardx » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:34 am

<br><br> Good Points all however......<br><br> William Rodriguez....the 9/11 "Hero".....went to the White House, was honered but now won't be touched now with a ten foot pole why?.....<br><br> Cause he saved people in the basement from Exlosions BEFORE the towers came down, the man almost had his arms blown off for christs sake.....<br><br> Buidlings can be imploded and brought down in various ways. <br><br> To say thay they weren't demolished by explosives just because of the WAY the fell is arrogant.<br><br> and WTC 2, the one that fell at a angle before it came straight down. ....<br><br> There's no way that happens with out comprimising the Structural Integrity of the lower half of the building BEFORE it starts to come.....<br><br> How can half a buidling with that much momentum going one way just *all of a sudden come straight down?........ <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby FourthBase » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:52 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Buidlings can be imploded and brought down in various ways.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>True.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To say thay they weren't demolished by explosives just because of the WAY the fell is arrogant.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I didn't say they weren't.<br>I was correcting the depiction of the WTC 1 & 2 collapses.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>and WTC 2, the one that fell at a angle before it came straight down. ....<br><br>There's no way that happens with out comprimising the Structural Integrity of the lower half of the building BEFORE it starts to come.....<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, yes, actually there is a way.<br>Not saying it happened that way...<br>But it's definitely possible.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How can half a buidling with that much momentum going one way just *all of a sudden come straight down?........<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>Because the corner was almost taken out by the crash. When the corner fails, the portion above it tilts, but then the enormous weight of that portion coming loose immediately begins to crush the floors beneath from the sheer gravity, so you have both happening at the same time. At least, that's the theory.<br><br>I have problems with it, too. But I have to grant that as a theory it also makes sense. CD theories aren't the only theories that make sense. And there's nothing prohibiting a scenario that involves pancaking <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>together</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> with CD. So I think we all need to keep an open mind about the collapses. Just as we should about the planes themselves, for example, which could have contained actual hijackers <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>and</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> been controlled via remote control at the same time.<br><br>Those who argue for CD shouldn't be so arrogant to exclude alternate CD scenarios or even non-CD scenarios from the realm of possibility. And vice versa.<br><br>All I was doing was correcting the depiction, though. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby medicis » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:08 am

One important issue is that the steel columns, enormously strong, would not have 'pancaked' and should have remained standing even as the floors around them collapsed. Rather, they appear to have been cut. Steven Jones has found thermate residue on steel samples from the towers and it apparently has been verified by two independent labs. That puts a rather 'nailed' status on the demolition... much less of a theory... much more of a fact.<br><br>Pardon the pun but the whole edifice of the government's conspiracy theory is tumbling down. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theorists claim academic momemtum

Postby xsic bastardx » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:14 am

<br><br> Wasn't trying to sound like I was picking on you forth base.....just kind of opinonated I am......<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Because the corner was almost taken out by the crash. When the corner fails, the portion above it tilts, but then the enormous weight of that portion coming loose immediately begins to crush the floors beneath from the sheer gravity, so you have both happening at the same time. At least, that's the theory.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> I agree with you on this one because of the way the WTC was designed. The lattice work exterior was made to distribute the weight evenly on the floors from the "Open Floor Plan" that the WTC had.<br><br> However, your talking a 30+ story basement, whihc means that the Bottom half of WTC 2 was still Greater in Mass that the Top half that was coming down, I could see it taking out some of the bottom half but crushing it all together?.....I don't know.....It seems to me that the top half of WTC 2 should have followed the angular fall pattern it had created and fallen to the side of WTC 1<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And there's nothing prohibiting a scenario that involves pancaking together with CD.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br> Totally.....my contention is that they only had explosives every ten floors or so(see video footage......).....that way they could try and sell the Pancake theory.......<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So I think we all need to keep an open mind about the collapses. Just as we should about the planes themselves, for example, which could have contained actual hijackers and been controlled via remote control at the same time.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br><br> again totally.....I have often wondered if those hijackers got the suprise of thier lives when all of a sudden the planes they just hijacked began flying themselves......<br><br> Though.....the mystery flights in Cleveland and the fact that the Flight patterns for all 4 flights mirror some of the biggest Military instellations on the East Coast chides my gut into thinking that there were no passenger planes at all.......<br><br> Just for the record I DO NOT believe in the "Pod" thoery or "Napalm" Bomb Theory......<br><br> Although The plane that hit WTC 2 looks awfully like a 737 instead of a 757..................<br><br><br> <br><br> <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Those who argue for CD shouldn't be so arrogant to exclude alternate CD scenarios or even non-CD scenarios from the realm of possibility. And vice versa.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br> Have you ever noticed that the Towers coming down look awfully like the Destruction Scenes from the Movie Independence Day?.................<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/skipjacobson/100-id4.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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