Terrific article

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Terrific article

Postby Qutb » Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:18 am

by JoAnn Wypijewski in <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/jw09222006.html" target="top">CounterPunch</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There was one positive side-effect of 9/11/01, and it was that people in New York actually talked to one another, and not just about pain and suffering. Those were sharp, but the whole grief machine has been grossly overplayed. This last anniversary of 9/11 there were almost no New Yorkers at the ritual sob-fest at Ground Zero beyond families and friends of the dead, security forces and conspiracy peddlers, conspicuous in black T-shirts emblazoned, "Investigate 911". There were some curiosity seekers, like me, and a lot of tourists consulting their maps of Manhattan. Otherwise the day's commemoration was a sideshow for New York, demanding little or no comment.<br><br>After that first September 11, though, New Yorkers did talk, and they talked about US foreign policy, and the place of America in the world across the past 50 years, and Israel-Palestine, and why the hell people "hate us" so much. These were raucous conversations -- in Union Square, in Washington Square, in local bars and coffee shops. I got into more passionate discussions, and edgy discussions, amid the stink and the smoke than I ever have in this city and than I fear I ever will.<br><br>Five years on, what was the rump of discussion? Not US foreign policy, not America's role in the world, not capitalism, not even oil, which always was too easy, and surely not Palestine. It was NORAD and Building 7 and "scrambling" and demolition charges. The only oppositional presence at Ground Zero were the people in the black T-shirts. And you have to hand it to them; they did organize. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>But their presence in the absence of anything else spelled just how far we've fallen. The peace movement, nowhere. The justice movement, nowhere. Any tendency toward a humanistic, liberated future, nowhere. There was one frowning woman carrying a rainbow flag with the tedious slogan, cobbled up by UFPJ for the 2004 Republican Convention -- along the lines of "We say no to the Bush agenda" -- and a monk or two. Meanwhile, the people in black T- shirts were busy handing out fliers, handing out DVDs, urging people to go to their computers, to "Do the research yourselves..."<br><br>Here was the ultimate failure of politics, translated, Go to your room, alone, immerse yourself in ephemera, alone, meet others just like yourselves so you can talk endlessly about this or that loose end lately discovered in your hours of isolation in front of the screen.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>(...)<br><br>They have absolute confidence in the machinery of state to do WHAT IT MUST DO to protect "us". I haven't heard such paeans to the power of NORAD since I talked to military flaks for Space Command while researching the technological absurdity that is missile defense.<br><br>(...)<br><br>Maybe this is all a distraction? A South Asian chap joined me in this line of argument. "A distraction from what?" the black T-shirt asked. "From US foreign policy", the fellow replied. He too was verbally pummeled with data from Professor Griffin, and assurances that once people really tapped into this they'd "see" how this is just one lie, the biggest lie, on top of a whole lot of other lies that constitute US foreign policy. Why not just start with US foreign policy? Because this is the biggest lie. This is what crystallizes everything. Round and round we go.<br><br>(...)<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>It was like religion, and profoundly sad. At one point one of the black T-shirts confessed that there's nothing people can do in the face of such evil, because they killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and they'll have no compunction to kill their critics if they need to. What a starting point for politics, and the best argument for why people might as well go to their computer screens and just stay there. But the truth! We need to know the truth! It's a truth of fools, simple in the extreme, requiring no more than the memorization of the "unexplained" events of that day, the eye-witness anecdotes and quick-fire repetition of same to others. It's also the politics of the schoolroom, akin to the argument that if every American just sent in a dollar, we'd have $350 million to fight poverty. If every American just does the research, just demands the truth, the truth will come out, the columns will tremble, the temples fall</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Terrific article

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:25 am

No, not really.<br><br>There's no end of disappointment to be found in the 9/11 movement, and miles of room for disagreement, but I didn't create this forum to be <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>another</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> venue to defend first principals against coincidentalists. There are enough places for that already. Just listen for the spinning of wheels.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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0 0

Postby AnnaLivia » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:56 am

0 0 0
Last edited by AnnaLivia on Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrific article

Postby Qutb » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:18 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"There's no end of disappointment to be found in the 9/11 movement, and miles of room for disagreement, but I didn't create this forum to be another venue to defend first principals against coincidentalists."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>In other words, the pre-determined conclusion is all that matters, not how one arrives there. It's only a matter of finding the right arguments to support a "truth" that has already been intuited. There's "miles of room for disagreement", as long as it doesn't call into question the core belief. Whether you think 9/11 was a massive psy-op orchestrated by the US military, a "real" terrorist attack that was allowed to happen on purpose, a clash of narco-mafias, or the work of trans-dimensional entities channelled by elite occultists, doesn't matter. It's a big tent, any theory is welcome. The important thing is to reject the mundane and boring "coincidence theory" aka "OCT" and, more importantly - because this is what it's about - unite in the shared convinction that whichever theory one chooses to embrace, it offers proof that the US government, or the current rulers of the United States, is an incarnation of Evil in a metaphysical sense.<br><br>David Ray Griffin said it best: "We have become entranced by demonic power".<br><br>"Truth" as normally understood in a secular or scientific context (meaning correspondence with facts) is the last thing the 9/11 "Truth" movement is interested in. Facts are only interesting if they can be dissociated from their context and from any objective analysis and used as rhetorical ammunition, in a manner reminiscent of fundamentalist evolution-deniers. And this similarity to creationist "research" is far from accidental, because this "9/11 Truth" is not arrived at by analysis or investigation, but is more akin to a religious belief. <br><br>You're no exception to that rule, Jeff. In fact, if anything, you're more honest about it, though you're a bit coy when you claim not to know if Cheney dons a black cloak and drinks cats' blood. Because you <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>are</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> convinced that he does, aren't you? The picture of the world that you paint with your writings on RI has many striking similarities to the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>weltanscauung</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> of the most radical fundamentalist bible-thumping Christians. What's the difference between you and Texe Marrs? Your statements are a bit more qualified, but aside from that?<br><br>The tragic fact is that the "Truth Movement" is the closest thing to a peace movement in America today. Earlier times had Martin Luther King, our has Alex and Steven Jones. That doesn't bode well for America.<br><br>Too bad it took me so long to realize this, or the hours spent doing conspiracy "research" could have been spent on more fruitful pursuits.<br><br>Oh well, ban me if you will. I needed an excuse to stop coming here anyway. As someone who used to think very highly of your blog and whose thinking was influenced by it, but who has since seen it for what it is, I find it relieving to leave the conspiracist outlook behind for good. <p></p><i></i>
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Bravo, Qutb, Bravo.....

Postby xsic bastardx » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:30 am

Standing Ovation.<br><br> <br> Truth is only a perception in the eyes of whoever believes it.<br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=xsicbastardx>xsic bastardx</A> at: 9/23/06 8:51 am<br></i>
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terrific

Postby darkbeforedawn » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:31 am

Yes, let us know from time to time about your vital work in the fields of civil rights, community building, economic justice, etc etc that you will have time for now that you no longer waste it here! The loss at RI will be the world's gain....heh heh. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Bravo

Postby snowlion2 » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:53 am

Unless we have the intellectual honesty to admit that, at least some of the time, a cigar really IS just a cigar, our credibilty will always be suspect. Interpretation of any event will always be a continuum, and rigorousness <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>and</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> intuition should allow for that. Dogmatism is seldom attractive and almost never convincing. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Bravo

Postby xsic bastardx » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:00 am

<br><br> One Man's Conspiracy is another Man's Atrocity, One Man's Conspiracy is another Man's Truth. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: terrific NOT

Postby sunny » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:14 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In other words, the pre-determined conclusion is all that matters, not how one arrives there.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The only pre-determined conclusion is the one about the 19 Arabs, armed with boxcutters, who hated us for our freedoms, pushed by the purveyors of the dominant ideology. I came to RI to get away from that, to discuss alternatives to official narratives, not just about 9/11, but everything. We are surrounded, inundated, overwhelmed, pushed, pulled, bullied, threatened, cajoled, harrassed, ridiculed, dismissed, infiltrated, provoked, and demonized in service to the official story of everything, everyday. <br><br>It's not as if we are ignorant of what they are saying. We know what their story is. We do not need constant reminding. We are trying, based on <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>evidence</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> not widely known to the general populace, that is strangely absent from msm storylines, (why would that be, hmmm?) to construct an alternative theory more in keeping with what that evidence tells us. People who come here and try to tell us we are stupid, that we have not read or seen with our own eyes that suppressed evidence, and that we should not draw from that evidence a different conclusion than the 9-11 Commission Report, should go apply for a job at Fox news. You'll fit right in. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: terrific NOT

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:55 am

Qutb has more and more rejected anything vaguely conspiratorial about 9/11 and the rest of it. He started out, from what I remember, being interested in the deeper connections related to Islamic fundamentalism. I'm not sure exactly what that's about but I think he's the most thoughtful debunker on the forum so lets' let him pick away. He won't do it just with rhetoric, which is the usual case around here (unless it's some topic that has already been covered in depth like CD...he was prolific on that in an earlier thread and it's unfair to ask him to repeat everything again.)<br><br>Anyway, Qutb, I don't agree with you. I think that 9/11 truth was hijacked and manipulated from the beginning. Quite skillfully, in fact. And I don't worry as much about the CD type stuff as I honestly don't have enough background to verify others' research or do my own.<br><br>But I do know that there's enough out there that has nothing to do with that that's not only verifiable, it's not even contested. <br><br>Qutb, you are really one of the smartest posters on this board. And the truth about 9/11 and so many other things is really so complex and the substrata so tangled that it would be great if you were one looking into it. If not 9/11 then some other element. You know better than most that conspiracies happen. The world is not a nice place and those in power take rather drastic steps to keep it. 'Twas always thus and always thus 'till be. But so many groups and individuals are spinning their wheels chasing after the wrong bad guys. I'm now in a full scale battle just with some in my local peace group here. I posted my blog article about how the left is starting to buy into this whole "Israel made us do it" theme. One of the more prominent folks on that list spoke up to say I was highly exaggerating about the influence of that idea. Then other posters started posting, surprise surprise, about how Israel was controlling the US. One Green Party member expressed how evil some Jewish Rabbi was because he dared condemn the Greens for their boycott Israel stand. Clearly the issue is being used to divide the list among many other things.<br><br>But we are asked to make black and white arguments in a grayscale world. You have been one of the best at sorting out the gray, though now it seems to me you've drifted back into black and white. I don't know that this is that big a deal on this forum....you will certainly be the minority here (and I won't even call you a disinformation agent or slyly hint that you work for Mossad) but "out there" it is awfully important, I think, to help people see the gray. To help people understand complexity, without adopting total moral relativism. <br><br>In any event, you opened my own eyes to the world of Muslim Brotherhood etc. My own working thesis these days is that the left has allowed the western powers to delegitimize anything remotely leftist in Arab (or any other kind if possible) nationalism and liberation movements. There's some outright manipulation and control, such as the use of "al-Qaida" types in the war against the Serbs. Where is the analysis on the left of the fact that the US supported and even imported Islamic militants into the Balkan war against the Serbs? Where is the understanding that in that war, the US basically backed the former "Ustashi" forces of Croatia? Where's the analysis that questions, given perceived reality about the US and our relation to Israel, that the US backed the same forces in that war which Iran was arming? What are we to make of the fact that the US has used "extraordinary rendition" to have suspected terrorists tortured in Syria? <br><br>MIHOP, LIHOP, BEEBOP-A-LOOLA, the US and the west has been playing games in the Middle East since before there even was an Israel. That needs to be exposed. I was hoping you'd be one to help do that.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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x

Postby orz » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:10 pm

It is indeed a good article with some very good points. I don't agree 100% but it's definitely food for thought. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: zealots

Postby chiggerbit » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:21 pm

Black and white vs gray: there is no zealot like a convert, no matter which siide of this issue you land on. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: zealots

Postby rain » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:46 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It was like religion, and profoundly sad. At one point one of the black T-shirts confessed that there's nothing people can do in the face of such evil, ...blah, blah, blah ...If every American just does the research, just demands the truth, the truth will come out, the columns will tremble, the temples fall<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->.<br><br>right.<br><br>it's an anesthetizing puff piece.<br><br>puff, puff,'you are feeling sleepy... very sleepy ....' puff, puff, puff.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: zealots

Postby chiggerbit » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:48 pm

And sometimes in our quests for truth we find unwanted truths, ones that don't fit comfortably into what we hope the truth to be. And so we reject all truths and accept the more comfortable lie, because it's not possible to accept the more attractive truths without accepting the unwanted ones, too. <p></p><i></i>
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The best definition of "Truth"....

Postby slimmouse » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:55 pm

QUTB said ;<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Truth" as normally understood in a secular or scientific context (meaning correspondence with facts) is the last thing the 9/11 "Truth" movement is interested in.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br> The best definition of truth that Ive heard in some time, is that it is the uncovering of a lie.<br><br> The OCT of 9/11 is a lie. Period. Rather like the above quote. <p></p><i></i>
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