what is Abramoff's "Dutch" connection hiding?

by **hmm** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:06 pm

Something odd is going on here, i am not sure what, but as i havent found any serious investigation of this angle (in english) i thought it might interest. this recent article brings up this "russian" connection and mentions a dutch company that was a client of abramoff. Unnamed "former partners" suggest that this dutch company was a front for Naftasib a russian energy company and link it to a Tom Delay visit to russia in 1997 <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/02/23/abramoff_ties_to_russians_probed/">www.boston.com/news/natio...ns_probed/</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Abramoff ties to Russians probed US inquiry widens to energy concerns By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | February 23, 2006 WASHINGTON -- The federal investigation into the lobbying activities of Jack Abramoff has broadened to examine his dealings with the Russian government and a pair of high-profile Russian energy company executives, according to documents made available to the Globe. ~snip~ The subpoena seeks information about ties between Abramoff-related groups and a Moscow energy giant that is called Naftasib, a major supplier to the Russian military. Investigators have asked for any information about Abramoff's dealings with two top Naftasib executives, Alexander Koulakovsky and Marina Nevskaya. Senior Naftasib executives helped arrange a trip Abramoff took to Moscow in 1997 with former House majority leader Tom DeLay, a longtime Abramoff friend. ~snip~ Separately, several former Abramoff lobbying partners have told the Globe that a key connection between Abramoff and Russia is an obscure Dutch firm called Voor Huisen. Voor Huisen was one of Abramoff's biggest clients, paying $2.1 million in lobbying fees to Abramoff and his partners from 2001 to 2004, according to public records that were filed by Abramoff in the US Senate. But there has been no explanation as to why the company had paid such large fees, and Abramoff's former partners say they are not aware of work that would justify that level of payment. Voor Huisen has been shrouded in mystery, and is rarely mentioned in the thousands of articles about Abramoff. A Dutch magazine, Vrij Nederland, reported last month that Voor Huisen was a shell company that had no activity and no assets. Dutch records do not list any shareholders. However, several of Abramoff's former partners, who also lobbied for Voor Huisen, said in interviews this month that they were told the Dutch company was connected to Naftasib executives. A private housing link Abramoff's lobbying records also suggest that the money paid to Abramoff by Voor Huisen was used to promote Russian interests. One lobbying report said Abramoff was hired by Voor Huisen to ''promote private housing in the former Soviet Union and other projects in energy and economics." Other reports that Abramoff filed said he lobbied for Voor Huisen on matters ranging from aviation safety to disaster preparedness to unspecified issues ''pertaining to defense and security." Since Voor Huisen has no business of its own, the work done by Abramoff's firm, and the high fees he collected, made Abramoff's partners concerned that hidden interests were behind the firm and its payouts. Ronald Platt, who was registered as a lobbyist with Abramoff on the Voor Huisen account, said in an interview that he was originally told by Abramoff or another colleague -- he doesn't remember which -- that the firm was a Dutch enterprise with an interest in housing, but that he later learned that it had ties to the Russians. ''I was told that they had an interest in developing moderate-priced middle-income housing in Russia," Platt said. ''This would be a good thing to bring stability to Russia. ~snip~ The subpoena indicates that investigators want to establish what the Russians were trying to accomplish through Abramoff. ~snip~ Geeslin said he had been told that the money was aimed at influencing the vote of DeLay, the former House majority leader, on legislation that shored up the IMF's financing for Russia. ~snip~ In addition to being a lobbyist, Abramoff registered in 1999 as a foreign agent. This means he represents a foreign government, according to government documents. He did not specify a country. Abramoff resigned from Greenberg Traurig in March 2004. Within days, Voor Huisen was dissolved, according to Dutch records. A spokesman for Abramoff's attorney declined to comment.<hr></blockquote> On the surface this sounds creepy enough, Tom Delay and abramoff as agents of russians with ties to its government and intelligence agencies, but there are some oddities about this story. The visit by Tom Delay to russia was in 1997 and the payments by Voor Huisen to Abramoff were made from 2001-2004 yet the article implies the two are connected and relate to Delays support for russian interests.Story one being the russian housing project and story two the IMF loans to the russian government. But this doesnt make sense as the dutch company was a shell, the IMF loan vote by Delay was in 1998, and the company that actually payed for Delay's trip to russia and it is claimed is connected to Naftasib in this instance is Chelsea Commercial Enterprises, Ltd. and not Voor Huisen. <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28319-2005Apr5.html">www.washingtonpost.com/wp...5Apr5.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In this case, travel funds did not come directly from lobbyists; the money came from a firm, Chelsea Commercial Enterprises Ltd., that funded the lobbying campaign, according to the sources. Chelsea was coordinating the effort with a Russian oil and gas company -- Naftasib -- that has business ties with Russian security institutions, the sources said. ~snip~ Unlike some House conservatives who scorn such support as "corporate welfare," DeLay proved to be a "yes" vote for institutions bolstering Russia in this period. For example, DeLay voted for a bill that included the replenishment of billions of dollars in IMF funds used to bail out the Russian economy in 1998. ~snip~ The Russian campaign is detailed in disclosures filed with the House by lobbyists. Those records state that Chelsea, with an address listed variously as a post office box on the British island of Jersey -- a tax haven off the French coast -- or a law firm in the Bahamas, paid at least $440,000 to fund lobbying aimed at building "support for policies of the Russian government for progressive market reforms and trade with the United States," according to lobbying registration documents.<hr></blockquote> It is not like this is news either as the Chelsea Commercial Enterprises Ltd./Naftasib connection and their sponsoring of the Delay trip to russia can be found on the web in two articles from 1997 and 1999 where this is openly discussed. <a href="http://www.afpc.org/rrm/rrm302.htm">www.afpc.org/rrm/rrm302.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Russia Reform Monitor, No. 302, August 25, 1997 American Foreign Policy Council, Washington, D.C. Echoes of Russia in USAID Privatization Aid For Kazakstan; House Majority Whip Junkets with Chernomyrdin Influence Peddlers ~snip~ August 5 House Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-Texas) goes to Russia on a "fact finding" trip bankrolled by influence peddlers tied to Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin. The trip is part of a lobbying effort to promote Chernomyrdin among conservative leaders in Washington, paid for by Chelsea Commercial Enterprises Ltd., headquartered in the Bahamas but whose principals reside in Moscow. Washington lobbying operations are run from Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds, a large law firm registered since February with the clerk of the House as a paid agent of the Bahamian company to "generate support for [the] Russian government's policies" of what it calls "progressive market reforms" and for bilateral trade. The Moscow portion of the DeLay trip is sponsored by A.O. NaftaSib, a Russian oil company tied to Chernomyrdin. NaftaSib describes itself as "a major shareholder" in Gazprom, and says that two of its "largest clients" have been the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD). According to its promotional literature, "NaftaSib met all of the needs for oil products for the Black Sea Fleet, the Baikal Military district and the 14th Army located in Moldavia [sic] from 1992 to 1995." One of the escorts in Moscow is NaftaSib Executive Vice President Marina V. Nevskaya, whose NaftaSib biography describes her as having taught at the Military Diplomatic Academy. The Military Diplomatic Academy is a training school for GRU military intelligence. --J. Michael Waller<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://www.afpc.org/rrm/rrm637.htm">www.afpc.org/rrm/rrm637.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Russia Reform Monitor No. 637, May 19, 1999 American Foreign Policy Council, Washington, D.C. ~snip~ [Editor's note: The Russian oil company that has supplied fuel to the Liman, the Kildin, and the rest of the Black Sea Fleet, has been bankrolling a political influence operation in Washington. Working through a cutout in the Bahamas, NaftaSib is paying a prominent D.C. law and public relations firm, Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds, to influence congressional staff, lawmakers, editorial writers and journalists. A NaftaSib executive involved in the influence effort is tied to GRU military intelligence. Most of the targets are conservative Republicans. In 1995, the same lobbyists were paid to represent the then Milosevic-controlled government of Montenegro, Yugoslavia.]<hr></blockquote> Now if we look at the actual articles in the Dutch magazine Vrij Nederland there is quite a bit of additional detail not found in the english language press so i offer a rough translation <a href="http://www.vn.nl/vn/show/id=53704/framenoid=39914">www.vn.nl/vn/show/id=5370...noid=39914</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>the full name of the shell company is "Voor Huisen Project Management Services Betryt B.V." The company was started in 1985 under another name The day before Abramoff left Greenberg Traurig on the 2nd of March, Voor Huisen removed itself from the dutch chamber of commerce's company registry.  The dutch are 20th on the list of foreign lobbying according to publicintergrity.org , it is home to many multinationals yet Voor Huisen, a unknown shell company, tops the list. Voor Huisen was registered with the dutch chamber of commerce but with authorized capital of € 79.411,– and Issued capital of € 15.882,– it was in no position to hire Abramoff or run up a 2 million dollar lobbying tab between 2001 and 2004. Voor Huisen's "dutch" accountant is Mulberry International,Voor Huisen last known adress is the same as Mulberry International's. Mulberry International's director Frank Taylor cant recall Voor Huisen at first but after a while recalls the name of Voor Huisen's director James Ramsden who it is said has a office in Geneve. Taylor claims Ramsden instructed him to keep the Voor Huisen accounts. Taylor had no explanation for the lack of financial statements since the year 2000. Taylor claims to have called Ramsden after being contacted by the newspaper and that he relayed that during his period as director of Voor Huisen between 2000 and 2004 there was no economic activity. The only assets Voor Huisen had on its books were 40.000,- dutch guilders that had been there since 1997. Naftasib lobbying was also related to the building of a fossil fuel plant in Israel<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://www.vn.nl/vn/show/id=53697/framenoid=39914">www.vn.nl/vn/show/id=5369...noid=39914</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>James Ramsden, the last known director of Voor Huisen is a partner in a british company, Caversham, which has a office on Jersey in the british channel islands. Caversham was looking for a shell company for a unnamed person, it was bought from a dutch accountant by a company in the virgin islands and the name was changed to Voor Huisen in 2001. No russian names have been found anywhere in the papertrail and James Ramsden refuses to reply to phonecalls or emails.<hr></blockquote> Now maybe its me but this information from the dutch magazine opens up quite a few avenues of investigation. But what everyone seems to have missed is how strange the name of this dutch company is. This is how the company was registered in the netherlands: Voor Huisen Project Management Services Betryt B.V. it is quite unusual for the name of a company as registered with the chamber of commerce to contain what seem to be multiple spelling mistakes.The name doesnt even really make sense in dutch unless you understand some of the background to the abramoff case. The correct spelling in dutch should have been: Voor Huizen Project Management Services Bedrijf B.V. translated this means: For Houses Project Management Services Company L.T.D. a silly and redundant name for a company investing in russian housing projects? BUt what few people would realise is that instead of mere spelling mistakes, the use of s instead of z and y instead of ij was the norm in 17th and 18th century dutch. And 17th and 18th century imigration from holland formed the basis for what is now known as south-africa "famous" for its apartheid regime. And afrikaans,the language of white south-africans,is based on dutch so a white south-african would write huisen instead of huizen, and bedryf instead of bedrijf. And Abramoff has a history with the apartheid regime of south-africa and its feared intelligence service BOSS background to Abramoff and the apartheid regime: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/25/AR2005112500248.html">www.washingtonpost.com/wp...00248.html</a> <a href="http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2005/08/17/abramoff/index.html">www.salon.com/ent/feature...index.html</a> In relationship to the "russian" angle it is good to remember that in 2000 Putin was elected president of Russia and this is seen by many as the beginning of the end of the unrestricted robbery of russia by citizens with (sometimes newly aquired) dual nationality of various countries. Buried among the Abramoff email's is this little gem: <a href="http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006331.php">www.talkingpointsmemo.com...006331.php</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>That evidence included an eye-popping 2001 email between Abramoff and a Russian man named Vadim. The email concerned the purchase of paramilitary equipment, apparently including night vision goggles, that Abramoff intended to send to his Israeli West Bank settler friends. A close read of the emails shows that this Vadim fellow had -- you guessed it -- a naftasib.com email address. What's more, Vadim's email signature identified him as "Assistant to Ms. Nevskaya" -- presumably one Marina Nevskaya, a NaftaSib executive who reportedly had been an instructor at a Russian military intelligence school. The Washington Post has reported that NaftaSib "has business ties with Russian security institutions." ~snip~ P.S. You can read the most recent trove of Abramoff emails here and here. Nuke up some popcorn and enjoy yourself, it's great stuff. Vadim's note can be found on page 79 of the first PDF, embedded in a longer message from Abramoff to his settler friend Schmuel Ben-Zvi.<hr></blockquote> direct link to the PDF with emails: <a href="http://indian.senate.gov/exhibitspart1.pdf">indian.senate.gov/exhibitspart1.pdf</a> as this post is getting rather long i will end it with a few more links as i dont have any neat conclusion just more questions... publicintegrity.org's data on Voor Huisen: <a href="http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=clients&year=2003&cl=L025358">www.publicintegrity.org/l...cl=L025358</a> <a href="http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=firms&year=2003&lo=L001798">www.publicintegrity.org/l...lo=L001798</a> kurt nimo on “Super Zionist” Abramoff and his israeli settler ties: <a href="http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=181">kurtnimmo.com/?p=181</a>

by **hmm** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:46 pm

as this is public information, of interest to researchers wishing to get to the bottom of this story, and considering these criminals need to be called to account i'm including this here. This is information is all you need to investigate Voor Huisen's company records at very reasonable rates at the dutch chamber of commerce: <a href="https://server.db.kvk.nl/TST-BIN/FU/TSWS001@?BUTT=24264615">/server.db.kvk.nl/TST-BIN...T=24264615</a> Naam: Voor Huisen Project Management Services Betryt B.V. Vestigingsadres: Prinsengracht 701 Vestigingsplaats: 1017JV Amsterdam KvK-nummer: 24264615 Soort inschrijving: Rechtspersoon english language explanation of the chamber of commerce site and pricing structure: <a href="http://www.kvk.nl/artikel/artikel.asp?artikelID=38213">www.kvk.nl/artikel/artike...elID=38213</a> <a href="http://www.kvk.nl/topic/topic.asp?topicID=7385&topicNaam=Information+Products">www.kvk.nl/topic/topic.as...n+Products</a> Voor Huisen's accountant Mulberry International B.V. (director Frank Taylor),this was also Voor Huisen's last known business adress, The Netherlands has strict accounting laws: <a href="http://www.searchforu.nl/kvk/33144784/0000">www.searchforu.nl/kvk/33144784/0000</a> James Ramsden, Voor Huisen's last known director, is a parner in this Jersey company the Caversham Group: <a href="http://www.caversham.com/map1.html">www.caversham.com/map1.html</a> The Caversham Group is a member of russell bedford international (this site has James Ramsden's email) <a href="http://www.russellbedford.com/jersey.html">www.russellbedford.com/jersey.html</a> Ramsden was made a partner in 2002 (after the Voor Huisen aquisition and name change) <a href="http://www.russellbedford.com/news1.html">www.russellbedford.com/news1.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 13-MAY-2002 Jersey member firm now has six partners Robert Surcouf, ACA, FCCA, and James Ramsden, FCCA, have been appointed as partners in Caversham Crichton Bell, Russell Bedford International's member firm in Jersey. Robert (34) specialises in international taxation and James (32) specialises in trust and commercial matters. Both of the new partners have been with the firm for a number of years, and their appointment brings the total number of partners to six.<hr></blockquote>

by **Qutb** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:26 pm

Hmm, that is some superb research. I think many over at DU would be interested too, if you're posting there, and Progressive Independent.

by **hmm** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:43 pm

thxs, I am not registered at Progressive Independent and will deny posting at DU so feel free to spread this elsewhere, it would be nice if you linked to this thread and/or RI if you do as this place and Jeff's research deserves attention.

by **hmm** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:25 pm

Talkingpointsmemo has scans of 46 pages of abramoff's disclosure forms for Voor Huisen <a href="http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/voor-huisen-disclosures/?resultpage=1&">www.talkingpointsmemo.com...ultpage=1&</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Disclosure Forms for Voor Huisen 03-01-2004 Updated: 02-23-2006 Jack Abramoff registered as a lobbyist for Voor Huisen on June 1st, 2000. The Boston Globe reported that the Dutch company was a "shell" and that "several of Abramoff's former partners ... were told the Dutch company was connected to Naftasib executives." See pages 9, 14, 23, 29, 32, 36, & 42 for the reported income. <hr></blockquote> the only evidence i have seen so far that Naftasib is connected to this dutch company is what unnamed former partners claim abramoff told them...

by **Qutb** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:21 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What's more, Vadim's email signature identified him as "Assistant to Ms. Nevskaya" -- presumably one Marina Nevskaya, a NaftaSib executive who reportedly had been an instructor at a Russian military intelligence school.<hr></blockquote> ...and DeLay's and Abramoff's escort during their 1997 trip to Moscow. I do wonder what the Russians are up to. There's the Russian oligarchs - Russian mafia - Israeli mafia/settlers connection, but behind that, there's the GRU, Russian military intelligence, hardly a hotbed of Zionism. They seem to have made an effort to cozy up to conservative Republicans at that time, or at least the faction around Chernomyrdin did. This was, by the way, around the same time that Alexandr Dugin (who almost certainly works for the GRU) endorsed Chernomyrdin, and a couple of years before the "drug summit" in Khashoggi's villa and the <a href="http://lobster-magazine.co.uk/articles/global-drug.htm" target="top">"Russian 9/11"</a>.

by **starroute** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:07 am

<a href="http://www.spi.ru/en/press_01e_325.html">www.spi.ru/en/press_01e_325.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Stoli on the Rocks Judy Sarasohn Some 150,000 cases of Stolichnaya vodka being held up in Russia are the focus of a lobbying battle in Washington. SPI Ltd., which produces and distributes the Russian vodka, is fighting the Russian government's effort to re-nationalize the vodka industry and take back Stolichnaya's trademark. The Russian agriculture ministry has ruled that the government still owns the company and has prevented the shipment from leaving the country. So SPI has hired the law and lobbying firm of Greenberg Traurig to press its case in Washington. The firm is in the process of formally registering to lobby on behalf of the company. The Greenberg Traurig team is urging lawmakers and administration officials to deny Russia permanent normal trade relations and entry into the World Trade Organization until it drops its effort to re-nationalize the vodka industry and recognizes SPI's trademark rights. Richard A. Edlin, a Greenberg Traurig partner, notes that SPI paid off $50 million of the old state-owned company's debts and spent many millions more on marketing Stolichnaya in the United States. The Greenberg Traurig folks have also met with officials at the Russian Embassy here and had what Edlin referred to, in State Department-ese, as "open and frank discussions." "If the Russian government wants U.S. investors to invest in Russian infrastructure, what does it tell these investors if the Russian government takes back a trademark?" said Greenberg Traurig lobbyist Michael Williams. In addition to Edlin and Williams, the lobbying team includes Howard Vine; Kevin Ring; Todd Boulanger, former legislative aide to Sen. Robert C. Smith (R-N.H.); Ronald Platt, a veteran Democratic activist and Hill staffer; Anthony Rudy, former press secretary of Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Tex.); and Diane J. Blagman, former chief of staff for then-Rep. Bob Carr (D-Mich.). "We're basically touching all the bases we can," Williams said. *** The Washington Post Company, 13.06.2002<hr></blockquote>

by **starroute** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:50 pm

By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | March 1, 2006 WASHINGTON -- Lobbyist Jack Abramoff worked with Russian partners to establish a company that envisioned a high-risk plan to drill for oil in Israel, which he hoped would bring him riches and reshape the Middle East, according to documents and his former lobbying partners. . . . Documents reviewed by the Globe show that in November 2001 Abramoff sought a banker's letter vouching that his newly created company, First Gate Resources, could undertake a $5 million project. The letter was addressed to the then-Israeli oil commissioner. A former Abramoff lobbying partner, Ronald Platt, said in an interview that he was shown a brochure about First Gate that listed the company officers as Abramoff and two Russian energy company executives of a Moscow firm called Naftasib. ''They supposedly had some kind of technology for determining oil and gas resources, they had discovered vast oil and gas deposits in the Israeli desert, and [Abramoff believed that] if these were exploited it would change the whole dynamic of the Middle East," Platt said. . . . His drilling company was set up in a way that shields the names of its officers. A company called First Gate Resources was set up under Delaware incorporation laws on Feb. 6, 2001, and dissolved in 2004, according to records. E-mails released by a Senate committee probing Abramoff show that he counted on his Russian partners to write a letter to Israeli officials pledging financial support for his plan to drill for oil. The Russians, Alexander Koulakovsky and Marina Nevskaya, were top executives of the Moscow energy giant Naftasib and were connected to a company that paid $2.1 million in lobbying fees to Abramoff and his partners, according to former Abramoff associates. . . . Abramoff wrote an e-mail to a lobbying partner on Nov. 4, 2001, with the subject line of ''first gate," saying he needed the letter ''mega fast. This is something Alexander and Marina were supposed to get but have not done so. Our permit in Israel depends on it and we are running short of time." . . . Within weeks of the effort to establish the oil-drilling plan, Abramoff discussed with the same Russian partners a plan to purchase night-vision equipment for settlers in territory occupied by Israel, according to his e-mails. One e-mail sent to Abramoff on Oct. 15, 2001, says that it will cost $28,000 to purchase the equipment, and is signed by a person identified as ''Vadim, assistant to Mrs. Nevskaya." It is from an e-mail account at ''naftasib.com," the company where Nevskaya worked. Shortly thereafter, an Abramoff-related group, Capital Athletic Foundation, listed an $18,000 ''donation of thermal imager," suggesting the equipment was bought and sent to the settlers.

by **hmm** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:39 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>..and DeLay's and Abramoff's escort during their 1997 trip to Moscow. I do wonder what the Russians are up to. There's the Russian oligarchs - Russian mafia - Israeli mafia/settlers connection, but behind that, there's the GRU, Russian military intelligence, hardly a hotbed of Zionism. They seem to have made an effort to cozy up to conservative Republicans at that time, or at least the faction around Chernomyrdin did.<hr></blockquote> i'm having a bit of difficulty replying to your post without dragging the thread in a direction i am not ready to go without more facts at my disposal but i will try. "the russians" dont exist,as you put it later, it is a question of different factions with different agenda's. You suggest that behind the oligarchs,the russian mafia, the israeli mafia/settlers, behind them,by definition controlling them, is the russian GRU?And you base this on Ms Nevskaya's connection to the GRU? I dont understand this concept. what are "the russians" up to? well according to the available information (see my original post), "the faction around Chernomyrdin" openly lobbied the americans through "Chelsea Commercial Enterprises Ltd" in connection with IMF loans. I understand that this is legal although it disgusts me. It just dont see the connection to Voor Huisen although i have the beginnings of a theory. I read the article you supplied but i cant really comment on it as it seems to go all over the place and you know how i feel about "unnamed sources within intelligence agencies" especially those with a vested interest in muddying the waters...

by **hmm** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:52 am

I know it feels like the open lobbying is the problem, and it should be illegal, but it is normal for a real company with real turnover to lobby. Both Naftasib and SPI ltd are legitimate and have reasons to lobby, and at least SPI seems to have done this in complete openness. It is also worth considering that for there to have been millions paid as a bribe through Voor Huisen there has to have been millions in PURE profit,if not billions. Voor Huisen was a shell company with no known economic activity between 2000-2004 according to dutch records. I still need a little while to make a convincing case for where the billions in profit came from, but it isnt from a few hundred thousand bottles of vodka...

by **Qutb** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:07 pm

No I didn't mean the GRU "controls" the oligarchs. I think their goals are, or were very different. The GRU is on Putin's side these days (or, rather, Putin is their guy). I was alluding to prior discussions on this board regarding Russia, National Bolshevism, the GRU, the FSB, Dugin, neo-fascism, and Scott's article. The power of the oligarchs has been neutralized under Putin. The ones who remain in Russia are cowed or cooperative I think. The "Russian mafia" however, seems to be anchored in Russian military and intelligence circles. There was a faction there that was allied with the oligarchs... among them, general Ivashov, who has more recently emerged as a champion of "9/11 truth" (imagine that). Chernomyrdin was officially endorsed by Dugin, who's a GRU "ideologue", former National Bolshevik and currently "Eurasianist". His political theories and prescriptions seem undistinguishable from Putin's long-term foreign policy strategy. So Chernomyrdin - who was buying influence in Washington at the time - is presumably connected to the other faction, the "anti-oligarch" one which came to power with Putin. But Russian politics are confusing, it's difficult to know what's going on.

by **hmm** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:36 pm

without getting into the foreign aspects too deeply. Old soviet designations such as GRU or KGB do not carry over into the current situation. "The Chernomyrdin faction" i would term the faction that was most successful after the yeltsin coup and subsequent sellout of russia by dual national oligarchs and foreign interests. This obviously includes many former GRU/KGB members due to their unique knowledge. Now i am no fan of putin but he has turned around russia from being a failed corperate mafia state into a successful "dictatorship" in which state assets with national security implications are being returned to russian control. Russia is now almost debt free. This suggests Putin is the anti-oligarch in this tale. Russian politics are confusing but calling Chernomyrdin a anti-oligarch only adds to that? My original post and conventional wisdom would suggest he is one of the godfathers of the oligarchs?

by **Qutb** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:54 pm

"My original post and conventional wisdom would suggest he is one of the godfathers of the oligarchs?" Exactly. Hence my confusion. Maybe KGB, GRU doesn't mean much anymore, but Dugin makes a big deal out of the difference between the "atlanticist" KGB, who according to him sold out Russia to Western-connected financial forces, and the "patriotic" GRU which resisted this and the break-up of the Soviet Union. Dugin is very anti-oligarch, and supports Putin. And he endorsed Chernomyrdin back in the late 90s. It's probably impossible to get a good handle on this without a better knowledge of Russia than I have, and actually speaking Russian. The only thing I'm sure of is that things aren't always what they seem, there as everywhere. But bringing in GRU, etc was a bit of a hijack, sorry. I just found the connection between Chernomyrdin and conservative Republicans interesting and it set wheels in motion in my brain. It was of course about the IMF bail-out and the conservatives in Congress were probably most in need of convincing on that.

by **hmm** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:37 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>In addition to being a lobbyist, Abramoff registered in 1999 as a foreign agent.<hr></blockquote> i had been wondering which country that was and came across this piece which suggests he registered as a agent for pakistan sometime before 1997,i have no idea if that means he registered as a agent of a different country in 1999. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/08/politics/08abramoff.html?ei=5088&en=1eb2c76b3f436a96&ex=1273204800&adxnnl=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1142264206-MXoG0wf08CgBG6COgd197w">www.nytimes.com/2005/05/0...G6COgd197w</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Lobbyist Paid by Pakistan Led U.S. Delegation There By PHILIP SHENON and ANNE E. KORNBLUT Published: May 8, 2005 WASHINGTON, May 7 - Jack Abramoff, the lobbyist at the center of a federal corruption investigation, led a Congressional delegation to Pakistan in 1997 but failed to tell the group's sponsor or the lawmakers that he was a registered lobbyist for the Pakistani government, according to the sponsor and the two House members on the trip. "I wish I'd known that he had a bias that way," said Representative Michael R. McNulty, Democrat of New York, who was on the trip. Gregg Hilton, whose nonprofit organization, the National Security Caucus Foundation, sponsored the trip for Mr. McNulty and Representative Howard Coble, said he felt "deceived" by Mr. Abramoff. The trip to Pakistan and Mr. Abramoff's role in it came to light with the release of documents this week showing that he had also used his personal credit card to pay more than $350,000 in travel expenses for other Congressional trips, some of them sponsored by the National Security Caucus Foundation, which is now defunct.<hr></blockquote>

what is Abramoff's "Dutch" connection hiding?

what is Abramoff's "Dutch" connection hiding?

Re: naming and shaming

Holy cow

Re: Holy cow

Re: Abramoff Disclosure Forms for Voor Huisen

Re: Abramoff Disclosure Forms for Voor Huisen

What about the vodka?

Abramoff pushed plan to drill for oil in Israel

Re: Are you serious?

Re: What about the vodka?Think big,think illegal?

Re: Are you serious?

Re: Are you serious?ok,the way i see it

Re: Are you serious?ok,the way i see it

Abramoff was registered as a foreign agent of pakistan

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