Class on Conspiracy

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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby FourthBase » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:49 am

Indeed, he talked about disinformation!<br>Described it as embedding a lie within a factual/believable framework.<br>Used an example of a poisoned well, cleverly enough!<br>e.g., say you wanted to convince people their well has been poisoned, if you just say "your well has been poisoned" they would probably ask for evidence, but if you say "your rivals poisoned your well!" they're more apt to believe you without scrutiny.<br>That's his shoddy example, anyway.<br><br>But of course, he's only referring to conspiracy theories as disinformation, and not in any layered psy-op way. You have to understand that the class probably isn't filled with people like me who are reasonably aware of parapolitics and beyond skeptical of this guy. He's talking mostly to people who have a common view of conspiracy theory, slightly intrigued but generally dismissive, and (unfortunately) counting on him to educate them. I hope I'm wrong and I'm not the only one who will have the knowledge or juevos to challenge him in class. If I am, like I said, it will help me immensely if everyone here can truly focus on the most irrefutable (grounded, documented) cases of conspiracy and pass along suggestions to me, ways to counter his and his source materials' dis/misinformation.<br><br>Re: "kids are expendable"...he said it in an off-the-cuff way. He had mostly referred to the hypothetical lookouts as younger males/men, and just at the end of describing why they'd be expendable versus elders and women called the lookouts younger males...[pause]...kids. I'm pretty sure everyone else in the class regarded it as "old man humor", reversing the usual perception of old people as the expendable ones. But with his background in mind control-type experimentation and his Madness class's dismissal of SRA, it caught my ears funny. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby NewKid » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:51 am

<br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"science = data and logic, conspiracy theory = group bonding over fears"<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I intend to submit a paper, 15 pages with a biblio, on a "real or imagined" conspiracy.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Those group bonders sure have wild imaginations (and a bunch of free time on their hands . . .)<br><br>(other research, powerpoint presentation)<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/">www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:26 am

Fourthbase, if I may make a suggestion re this class on conspiracy, stay quiet and listen.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>First</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, because it may indeed be some kind of experiment or "honey pot", and your contribution to the class may go into a file that will make you beep on "their" radar. <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Second</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, because as a student, you are there to learn, and this is a great learning opportunity... Listen carefully to the arguments, dissect and examine them. Study him, read those horrible books as a way to exercise your critical thinking muscles. What methods are being used to discredit "conspiracy theories"? Straw men? Logical fallacies? The suppression of certain facts? Ridicule and ostracism? What subjects are avoided and seem to be sore points? Know thy enemy.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Third</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, because the classroom provides a psychological "home advantage" to the professor, who stands up at the front while you're just one among a bunch of lowly students. It's his classroom; moreover, he enjoys the advantage of age, prestige and all the trappings of authority (including the dispensation of grades). Your arguments and contributions will all be filtered through those factors in the perceptions of those who hear them, making it much harder to persuade anyone to even listen, let alone critically evaluate what you say.<br><br>If nothing else, you can avoid being categorized as a trouble-maker, which will certainly happen if you go off half-cocked. Take your time, use the advantages that you do have, such as the opportunity to study an apologist close up, while building up your weapons of knowledge, logical thinking, and experience. When you are ready to emerge from your anonymity, you will be a much more formidable and credible opponent, all the more so for being unexpected.<br><br>Good luck. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby FourthBase » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:57 am

Excellent advice Alice, I intend to follow it the best I can.<br><br>When I say "challenge" him in class, I mean merely in the opportunities in the Q&A (about an hour at the end of each class) for me to ask a simple non-hostile question in the flow of conversation, probably in the guise of deferentially asking for clarification or confirmation. I believe I have a responsibility at certain times to offer the rest of the class a modest example of skeptical fortitude, or something like that.<br><br>However, I want the paper to be bold factual and infused with the most rational and well-documented arguments. I do intend to use the paper as a means of challenging not the professor personally, but debunking in general. If I'm truly satisfied with the paper, I might consider making copies and distributing it to the rest of the class at the same time I submit it to him. But that's a while away (May 8th). I have some time to develop ideas and angles, and there are plenty.<br><br>I don't want to come off as some lazy schmuck who wants to delegate the task of researching and thinking to the group, but I do hope that anyone and everyone here feels free to consider my presence there as an extension of this RI community. I will tackle the courseload myself, but I look forward to the assistance of anyone who volunteers it.<br><br>Actually, I think one of the books even deals with this: "The Wisdom of Crowds", the strength of aggregate knowledge over expert knowledge.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What methods are being used to discredit "conspiracy theories"? Straw men? Logical fallacies? The suppression of certain facts? Ridicule and ostracism? What subjects are avoided and seem to be sore points?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Indeed, this is the kind of thing I want to get a decent grasp on soon and not have to wait until the class is over before I develop a full sense. I will start a Data Dump thread for links, etc. related to the class. <br><br>I want to have data that best meets the debunkers' standards, and for reference here is how Anderson defines a strong vs. weak theory, and how he defines a fact:<br><br>Strong theory = related testable hypothesises with experimental support vs. Weak theory = related assertions, not testable, unconfirmed. He said a strong theory has "predictive value", so any instances where a conspiracy theory has had predictive value would be helpful. Not sure how the strong conspiracy theory re: Lincoln's assassination is testable, supported by experiments, or predictive, lol. But I think he's just working from a science-based definition.<br><br>Fact = a proposition with sufficient enough evidence so that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent. (Gould's definition, I think).<br><br>What I'm looking for in the data dump:<br><br>- Analysis of debunker tactics and fallacies; deconstruction of the "paranoid conspiracy theory" paradigm. A reversal of the usual assumptions re: conspiracy theory and redirection of them back onto the established world of official history, i.e. the overlooked conspiracy-ness of official history, a la Jeff's "Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11". <br><br>- Instances of perfectly rational, credible, and distinguished persons believing/supporting a conspiracy theory.<br><br>- Documentation of the so-called "dubious" conspiracies (particularly two: #3 - NWO, Illuminati, S&B, CFR, Trilateral and #5 - Bohemian Grove...I'm reluctant to approach extraterrestrials and zionism, but willing if the documentation is absolutely, irrefutably foolproof).<br><br>- Documentation of anything else related to the class. Cooperative Research level documentation, i.e., links to mainstream stories. Books (I have a library card! lol), magazines, newspapers, video, etc. Tell me where to look, I'll find it.<br><br>And most important, if anyone else has advice on how to approach the class or even what to ask of people here or in the Data Dump, I'll be quite grateful.<br><br>Thank you and I'll do my best to represent. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby FourthBase » Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:14 am

BTW, here is the link to my original thread on this class:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm11.showMessage?topicID=337.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...=337.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>And here is the link to the new Data Dump thread:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm9.showMessage?topicID=82.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...D=82.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby FourthBase » Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:20 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The class could be his way of experimenting with social response to this outrage. not a class but an experiment.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>I will keep that in mind as well.<br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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why

Postby blanc » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:57 pm

4thb I don't have it clear in my head why you are doing this class - where it leads? alice's thinking was in tune with my instincts, but if you produce something of a counter-attack at the end, what do you get from it, and what would be the possibilities if you produced a nice piece of warm flannel instead? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: why

Postby FourthBase » Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:43 pm

I don't know.<br><br>Yes, I suppose I could just approach it as a personal learning experience. In that case, why the hell would anyone here care, except for the occasional update, right? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :b --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>OTOH, it's a class on conspiracy at Harvard, taught by a spook with seeming ties to the mind control apparatus. Seems to me like there's an opportunity to attempt an intellectual stand against conspiracy debunking. Whether that stand might impact anyone besides myself remains to be seen. It could at least impact my classmates in a small way, I think. And it's bound to be such an interesting experience that I might want to write about it soon after the semester ends. Just to, you know, let as many people as possible know how it went and what the class is all about. <p></p><i></i>
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we would care

Postby blanc » Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:17 pm

either way, because it is interesting, that the class is being held there, interesting to know to whom it is interesting enough to be there, what the reactions of classmates are. can't get the feel of how a critique of the material taught will develop , but please keep posting. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:52 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>However, I want the paper to be bold factual and infused with the most rational and well-documented arguments. I do intend to use the paper as a means of challenging not the professor personally, but debunking in general.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Instead of "challenging...debunking in general", why not be a bit more subtle? Do a study on a "conspiracy theory", examining the kind of environment that provides fertile ground, and factors that promote widespread belief in, conspiracy theories.<br><br>Just as an example, you could contrast between the global outpouring of love and sympathy for the US and the spontaneous coming together of Americans immediately after the 9-11 attacks, with the global hatred and suspicion directed at the US five years later, as Americans themselves are increasingly disillusioned and mistrustful of their government.<br><br>What happened in those five years to make so many people believe the unthinkable?<br><br>You could correlate the growth of "conspiracy theories" with the number of unanswered questions and doubts, starting perhaps, with the investigations and declarations that raised people's hopes and then evaporated like a mirage, creating real frustration and suspicion.<br><br>Examples of these, could be:<br><br>1) The "put options" that were touted as a smoking gun leading to people who not only knew about the attacks in advance, but who intended to profit handsomely from them; the investigation inexplicably stopped, with a total information black-out on the matter;<br><br>2) The computer hardware possibly containing suspicious financial transactions that was "destroyed" in the attacks, and the fact that the German company that claimed to be able to recover the information, was quietly purchased by a US firm with CIA ties, after which the hardware recovery was not mentioned again;<br><br>3) The anthrax attacks that were publicized as an attack by "Al Qaeda", and that just happened to be directed at opponents of the Bush administration, the investigation of which was suddenly abandoned when it traced the source of the anthrax to a US military facility.<br><br>4) The destruction of crime scene evidence before it could be examined by investigators, ie, the removal of the WTC steel under tight security and secrecy, and its immediate shipping abroad. Five years later, no one seems to know who gave the order for such an appalling violation of normal investigative procedures;<br><br>5) The refusal of the Bush administration to allow an independent investigation of 9-11, only reluctantly agreeing to a strictly limited investigation after a year and a half, and only because of organized pressure by families of the victims, but allowing it a budget of just $3 million (!) and appointing Henry Kissinger as chairman (!!)<br><br>6) Claiming that they had positive evidence that would soon be presented to all the world, that al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden were responsible for 9-11, within a month of the attacks, the US led a massive invasion of Afghanistan that involved the death and maiming of untold numbers of civilians, but which appears to have deliberately allowed Taliban forces (and possibly Osama bin Laden) to escape. Meanwhile, a former Unocal oil executive was appointed president, and a US-led consortium was finally able to start its long-held plans to build a pipeline from the oil-rich Central Caspian region to export markets in Asia. <br><br>7) In the face of widespread disbelief that Henry Kissinger, a man wanted in several countries for questioning for his role in war crimes, would be chosen to head the investigation of 9-11, he was the Bush administration's firm choice -- he only stepped down when he realized that he would be required to divulge his international client list.<br><br>9) Kissinger's replacement to head the investigation was Thomas Kean, a director of Amerada Hess, a company whose business partners were suspected of funding of "al-Qaeda" (Conflict of Interest 1). Moreover, Amerada Hess would directly benefit from the invasion of Afghanistan, since the pipeline to be built in Afghanistan as the result of the invasion, would allow Amerada Hess to export oil and gas from the Caspian region and thereby get a return on their investment (Conflict of Interest 2).<br><br>10) Despite the official explanation that the disaster of 9-11 resulted from widespread incompetence and failure, no one has been held accountable. On the contrary, a remarkable number of those who failed in their duty to protect the citizens of the US, were lavishly rewarded with promotions to even greater positions of responsibility. In contrast, whistle-blowers have been made to pay dearly for their courage and honesty.<br><br>12) Immediately after the attacks, the government was classifying and "disappearing" all kinds of evidence that could not possibly endanger national security, but that COULD, on the other hand, contradict the government's official story. <br><br>Documents and evidence that disappeared into the memory hole never to be seen again:<br> <br>i) the blueprints for the WTC buildings (not even investigators were permitted to see them); <br><br>ii) the passenger manifests for the doomed flights, which were briefly released before they were declared classified, and which listed NO Arab passengers at all, terrorist or not; <br><br>iii) the steel columns, beams and trusses from the WTC (see above) were quickly and quietly shipped to Asia and rapidly sold as scrap for well below their market price; <br><br>iv) FBI agents showed up "within minutes" of the attack on the Pentagon and confiscated the film from security cameras at a gas station across the street from the Pentagon, as well as film from another security camera, placed on the roof of a hotel, that likely filmed the crash. Also, after the Los Angeles Times reported that the police were examining "footage from dozens of cameras at the three airports where the terrorists boarded the aircraft", only a few frames of film are released to the public, none from Logan, from which the "lead hijacker" Mohamed Atta supposedly boarded the plane, because, according to the FBI, unlike any other airport in America, Logan had no security cameras.<br><br>ANYWAY, this is getting way too long, it no longer has to do with your paper, I've just been wandering down memory lane...<br><br>But, I do think it might be interesting for you to examine what kind of factors and environment promote the proliferation of "conspiracy theories". The lack of clear information and answers to important questions must surely be one. <br><br>The sense that those who are supposed to provide people with information and ask the questions for us, such as the press and our political representatives, are failing to do so, even covering up facts and deliberately lying in some demonstrable cases, is another. <br><br>The growing gulf between what people are told about the world and what they can see with their own eyes is definitely a third.<br><br>And one of the things they see, is a government consistently sacrificing their lives and safety, their future and those of their children, in order to serve someone other than the public that elected them. Whether that "someone" is a global corporate entity or entities, or the Illuminati, or an alliance of religious fanatics, or satan-worshipping pedophiles, or aliens, or a bunch of sociopathic good ol'boys, or whatever, well, that would depend on the quantity and quality of the evidence. <br><br>Generally, though, it doesn't help things when governments ask people to believe in magic bullets and collapsing buildings doing a free-fall into their own footprint even when nothing hit them, or in terrorist masterminds who command vast global armies of fanatical followers but whom nobody sees (and who grow amputated legs and even come back to life - repeatedly), or in miraculous passports found lying on sidewalks, or how happy the people of Iraq are, now that 100,000 of them have been killed, they've got no clean water system, no reliable electricity, their country has been ruined and contaminated with depleted uranium, their men have been stripped naked, humiliated and tortured to death, their government and their economy have been taken over by foreign rulers... But they've got this wonderful future, see, because they've been liberated by America.<br><br>You know what? I'll be happy to provide you with links documenting anything I wrote above -- sort of compensation to you for reading it. <br><br>I hope you'll keep us posted about the class. Good luck, again. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby havanagila » Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:07 pm

The doctor has published several articles about the connection between brain structure and propensity to believe in nonesense. he was referring to Mid Easterners (arabs, I suppose) as having a different Amygdala (as a result of interbreeding with cousins of first degree, and other practices). Perhaps you can ask him whether the AMerican amygdala is now undergoing changes (pollution ? food ? drugs ? ) which make the americans more susceptible to conspiracies and next thing they'll be ready to blow them selves up for ideas ? <br>--<br>Since he believes in race theories that explain political tendencies and even the propensity to write a lot and take ideologies seriously...you can tackle that as well. Cause perhaps he was focusing only on Arabs and fogetting to examine the Americans at home ?the best thing is always to place a mirror in front of the person you wish to expose. <br>--<br>I see his racial interests as the more problematic and perhaps more beefy in terms of being able to challenge or just lead him to more explicit utterances in that direction. <br>--<br>the amygdala manuever...that's my favorite part in his publications, and the most dangerous I think. <br>--<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby FourthBase » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:11 pm

Yes, he also mentioned amygdala damage in class, as one of the causes for a predisposition toward paranoid thinking. So obviously, that freaked the hell out of me (and presumably few or no others) because I had read online about his bogus theory on amygdala damage contributing to the makeup of terrorists. 1 + 1 = ? "Paranoid conspiracy theorists = terrorists." If this guy has any clout in terms of the direction that his paymaster fascists take toward suppressing dissent, then we should be more than a little scared.<br><br>Alice...you are way too modest.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Just as an example, you could contrast between the global outpouring of love and sympathy for the US and the spontaneous coming together of Americans immediately after the 9-11 attacks, with the global hatred and suspicion directed at the US five years later, as Americans themselves are increasingly disillusioned and mistrustful of their government.<br><br>What happened in those five years to make so many people believe the unthinkable?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>That's a <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>brilliant</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> angle.<br><br>I would expect that the sick debunker response would be something like...Well, even as the smoke was rising the amygdala-damaged paranoids immediately began spewing hate-filled theories about the Jewish Illuminati blah blah blah, and just as viruses spread (the reason why the Tipping Point is assigned, I assume) these vicious thoughts spread to segments of society that are normally rational but whose critical thinking capacity was wounded by the recent pain and incomprehensibility of 9/11.<br><br>How do I get around/under/over/through that? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby FourthBase » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:26 pm

BTW, Alice, if you could indeed provide me the links for those unanswered questions, please post them in the Data Dump. I have a feeling my paper is going to be on 9/11. I mean, what else could it be about, really? It's the monument of contemporary conspiracy, it's changed our lives in horrible ways, and there's <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>ample</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> factual evidence that contradicts the official story and points to a conspiracy.<br><br>Again, thank you so much for the ideas and support. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 2/9/06 5:34 pm<br></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby AlicetheCurious » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:31 am

Thank you for your kind remarks, Fourthbase (did you guess I've always dreamed of going to Harvard? May I indulge vicariously, if only as a muse for your paper?). I'll be happy to provide you with the links, within the next 2-3 days. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Class on Conspiracy

Postby FourthBase » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:46 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>May I indulge vicariously, if only as a muse for your paper?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Absolutely!!!!<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'll be happy to provide you with the links, within the next 2-3 days.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You are awesome, Alice.<br>Thanks again. <p></p><i></i>
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