Obsessing About Conspiracy

by **robertdreed** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:38 pm

"Again, this is an example of the attitude I identify as racist: "Impossible - Then so long, suckers." " I think you're misapprehending the context of that remark, which admittedly sounds sort of flip in retrospect. It reflects my frustration with getting people to face the answer. The Drug War needs to be ended, on rational terms, in much the same manner that Federal Alcohol Prohibition was ended. Not with half-measures, but by destroying the bulk of the undergound economy through legalization and regulation. Because pouring money into an impoverished community with a thriving illegal drug economy is like carrying water in a leaky bucket. That's an insight of "political economy", by the way- a discipline that's impossible to understand without recognizing the valid contributions of Marx to social science. (Ever read the book Clockers, by Richard Price? As fictionalized 20th Century American social history, that book is the equal of anything by better-known writers like Sinclair Lewis, F. Scott Fitzgerald, or Nelson Algren. Maybe better. In my opinion.) Do I have "vitriol" toward Marxism? Yeah, sometimes. Considering the historical record, I think the occasional resort to vitriol is justified. And I don't have much use for "-isms." But for the most part, it's unnecessary. The Left in the USA simply doesn't amount to the sort of threat worthy of vitriol. Ridicule is generally sufficient. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 7/26/05 9:02 pm

by **proldic** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:39 pm

and he's speechless for the first time folks... "whatever" pretty much sums up your political philosophy.

by **robertdreed** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:42 pm

Now, back to "personalities": Are you a parent of school-age children, proldic? Ever teach school? Ever teach in the "inner city", like John Taylor Gatto? Or has it all been "activism" and "advocacy"? Who cut your check for that, anyway? Some place less morally and ethically suspect than the source of funds for the Fulbright Scholarship, which you mocked a few posts back? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 7/26/05 8:44 pm

by **Dreams End** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:54 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>A good measure of a persons smarts (vs intelligence [like using big words like perspicacity]) is how shrill they get when confronted with a challenge to their (alternative) orthodoxy.<hr></blockquote> Maybe you should reread your last post and mine and rr's. Which one is shrill? I wasn't going to even respond to you anymore, but the last part of your post intrigued me and caused concern, so I want to say one more thing: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am also close friends w/ a RA survivor at the hands of hippie-rainbow satano-pagans.<hr></blockquote> Well no fucking WONDER you are so adament about this! Sheesh, man. I have no idea what group you are talking about specifically but I had no idea this was such a personal issue for you. In any event, others on this forum I imagine could be very supportive in your efforts perhaps. All I know about RA is what I've read. As I've posted elsewhere as far as we know, my wife's DID comes from plain old abuse...that's not a happy thing, but without the additional issues of whatever the hell is going on with RA and the potential dangers if there is an active group still involved. But your tone has gotten increasingly...well, shrill, so I'm not going to continue to engage with you, though that will be no great loss to you, I'm sure. HOWEVER, there are people with experience with RA who could probably offer some support if it is needed and I worry you may piss them off as well and lose potential allies. The fact that you are actively "battling" these folks is frightening. Especially since the folks on your "marxist boards" will say you are full of shit about RA and that RA and all of that are merely side issues meant to distract us from the real work of organizing the masses. No help there. I don't believe that, or I wouldn't be coming to this site, of course. And I wish you strength, wisdom and discernment in your efforts to help your friend. Side note to anyone reading this: is there a support site specifically for RA survivors? I've found a couple for DID...such as Mosaic Minds, but never seen one for RA survivors as a class. Mosaic Minds has an SRA forum but that doesn't seem real active. And I suppose people actively combatting this in the present lives would feel too intimidated to post.

by **proldic** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:00 pm

Hey, a breakthrough. I'd say it's more than just a flip remark. I'd say it reflects underlying [racist] attitude on your part to the public school parents. But I made that point already.This doesn't make you a horrible person, or any different than most americans. As I said before, "get over it". And I do mean really. I think the drug war is a big part of that, but being a dealer in and of itself doesn't deprive them of an education. What deprives them is mandmins, and de-funding brought about [bringing it back to the beginning here] by the exodus of influential parents out of the struggle for better public schools at a crucial time in history, largely due to a well-funded media campaign by your self-descrbed guru JTG. I'm not saying that there isn't a negative effect of prohibition on the inner-city culture. But when you -white man - start to pin the failings of the inner-city schools on the "schools" - and in that you were implying parents and children as well, that's racist. As far as your quintisentially american views on marxism, I would not just assume I agree w/ the historical record of modern myths. In fact, you would flip your wig all over again if you really knew. Here's a start: <a href="http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr38.html">davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr38.html</a> Here's the thing about the modern left. Yes they have an overblown view of their own effectiveness, but they are made up of a population that would otherwise be relatively influential [white, upper-class, college-educated] if not controlled. Maybe you are not aware there was/is another "left" at one time. And yeah, they were communists. And socialists. And populists. And they were very popular in this country at one time not so long ago.

by **robertdreed** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:07 pm

a "painful birth process"...toward "higher consciousness", no doubt. Don't be a cornball. That remark wasn't even addressed to "the public school parents"...where did you get that idea? It was addressed at all those who think that anything in public school reform at the high school level in at-risk neighborhoods is going to be accomplished without removing the obstacle of the illegal drug economy- an economy that reverberates far beyond the boundaries of the school yard, especially in many urban inner-city neighborhoods. Once again: K-6 (or perhaps K-8 ) is where to concentrate public school efforts. The justification for public high schools is a lot shakier. Beyond the "status quo ante" part, which is not inconsiderable. "But when you -white man - start to pin the failings of the inner-city schools on the "schools" - and in that you were implying parents and children as well, that's racist." What I find to be prima facie "racist" is your injection of my ethnicity into points that I bring up that you find disagreeable, typically in the absence of offering any reasoned argument against them- only an imputation of motive. I know how the Marxist game works. If I was black, I'd be a "sellout", a "wannabe white", etc. A canned "answer" for every occasion, that's one of the appeals of the Ultimate Materialist Dogma. For the record, I reject the notion that my use of the term "the schools" is racist codespeak for "the parents and children." Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 7/26/05 10:24 pm

by **sunny** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:27 pm

Because pouring money into an impoverished community with a thriving illegal drug economy is like carrying water in a leaky bucket. What you seem to be saying there, Robert, is that given the tools and the opportunity to build wholesome, productive lives, people in the inner city would still choose a violent life of crime. This seems counter-intuitive in that it is a well known fact that crime rates go down when the economy is good, and a good education has turned a few thugs away from certain death. Proper funding won't bring about instant Utopia, of course, but it would certainly start a positive process. As for 99% of us being racsist, proldic, maybe engaging in a civil dialogue with one of us would change your mind on that score.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

by **robertdreed** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:40 pm

"What you seem to be saying there, Robert, is that given the tools and the opportunity to build wholesome, productive lives, people in the inner city would still choose a violent life of crime." If only the choice were that simple. The way the illegal drug economy plays out on the ground is that kids are given a choice: they can try to do it the square way, and maybe after some unknown but probably lengthy period of time they can accrue the skills to find a niche in the legitimate economy. Or they can get into "business" right away, and make more money than their parents. Sometimes a lot more. At age 16. That's the promise, anyway. In the first instance, the rewards appear uncertain and deferred; in the second, they're nearly insantaneous. There's a certain amount of self-deception built into it- like cab drivers, drug dealers prefer to remember their big paydays, and forget the uncertainties and risks. But drug dealing often doesn't take on the appearance of "a violent life of crime." It isn't like holding up stores, or stealing cars. It's a retail business, one that can be profitable to the point of surreality. Yeah, violence is always in the background- people are on their own when it comes to protecting their inventory. which is both valuable and nearly currency-compact. But the threat of being arrested and paying an adult penalty doesn't loom large until adulthood. Which is a primary reason that so much of the trade is handled by teenagers. And then, after a few years in The Life, it's tougher and tougher to get out... That dynamic comprises the plot of the book I recommended, Clockers. " it is a well known fact that crime rates go down when the economy is good" But pouring money into the inner cities doesn't simply equate to producing "a good economy." What's needed as preconditions for a sound local economy is safe streets, an aboveground market that isn't competing for labor and dollars with an illegal economy, and community values that don't feel under the gun from criminals having a disproportionate amount of the money, status, and manpower in the community. That climate leads to more private investment and higher property values. "a good education has turned a few thugs away from certain death" Sure. But not enough of them. And I don't think that's their fault, by and large. They're presently confronted with a temptation that all too few adults are equipped to handle, much less teenagers. It's called "Easy Money." "Proper funding won't bring about instant Utopia, of course, but it would certainly start a positive process." Even a leaky bucket carries some water. But the best answer is to plug the leaks, first. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 7/26/05 10:17 pm

by **proldic** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:56 pm

I don't know why pointing out the simple fact that supporting the results of jTG's downsizing plan results in racist ends, and hence makes one a handmaiden of racism, [otherwise known as a racist], is seen as being uncivil. Unless one shouldn't just come right out and make those kind of accusations in "civil society". But you'll see. And Robert ( or should I say Uncle Joe ) everything you take for granted in this life was brought by cp struggle.

by **mother** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:02 am

I thought the the topic was Obsessing About Conspiracy, which I have been doing for many years. I was a "Red Diaper Baby" of very politically active and brilliant parents. My search for truth led to situations very hazardous, and many paintings, and ultimately to Traditional Roman Catholicism. We know about conspiracies! No discussion of conspiracy fact should exclude the Third Secret of Fatima, but more on that later. As a mother of 6 children aged 11 and under, 5 of whom are adopted and are of various colors, modesty forbids using the words which come to mind when considering the public schools, and the crushing of any creative or original thought and the course content. Maybe calling people racist isn't such a good idea. My parents took me to hear Martin Luther King's "I have a Dream" speech in D.C. I could go on and on qualifying my non-racist point-of-view including adopting children of other races, yet the schools are so horrible(at least the ones my little ones have been to) that I've had no choice but to home school. So, does anyone know of a safe sleeping potion for children so I can continue my obsession with conspiracy in peace? And you guys make up and stop that name-calling right this instant!

by **Avalon** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:07 am

"why don't you work on driving away the bad meme-spreaders like, um, the little Jew thing going on" ??????

by **hmm** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:59 am

I tried in a earlier thread to engage you on this politely.I may have missed your reply but by reading the rest of your thoughts on this board its obvious you didnt "see" the hint. If someone came into your house and started attacking everyone you hold dear PERSONALLY knowing fullwell as someone who claims to have lurked here that this board is comprised of people who come from opposite sides of a broad spectrum who have all woken up in some way or the other to the fact that the myths they have been tought as truth contai n lies. Many here have been deeply shaken by those lies,or are personally effected by some of the dark topics discussed here freely. If you then engage these people in a rabid "agit-prop" style (hey i understands its your cultural baggage) while accusing them of not seeing their own faults based on their cultural baggage you only come across as a fool.And any good arguments and points you DO have to bring to the table get completely lost (and you do have good points in between the hate filled attacks) Alot of people here are "flee-ing" anger or hate and are looking for "another way" and new answers to old problems. Mercilessly beating sensitive people about the head with your argument is selfdefeating and disruptive. Attack falsehoods and misconception,educate,engage but ad-hominems and sarcasm and violent hate filled retoric against people personally don't belong here.I understand they are the natural defenses YOU have built up against a world that doesnt understand. But ALL of us here are trying to escape that if i have any understanding of this board in the short time i have been here. Do you get it? because i dont have the energy to waste on this BS and especially not here.

by **proldic** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:03 am

violent hate filled rhetoric?

by **sunny** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:31 am

Even a leaky bucket carries some water. But the best answer is to plug the leaks, first. How would you propose to plug the leaky bucket? Perhaps empowering the people with a good education would be a start? I agree with you on concentrating on K-6, the formative years. I've seen it with my own children, and the children of my friends, as well as the anecdotes of my grandmother, a teacher: spending time teaching young children gives them a good "head start" putting them more firmly on the road to a successful academic career, hence a more satisfying and productive life-though I must admit that the educational system is geared toward teaching conformity and the status quo, a problem that could partially be solved by PAYING good teachers, who could slowly but surely turn this around, and begin to teach students to actually think,and to question what they are told. As for "easy money", there is no doubt there will be drug dealers so long as drugs are illegal and there is a demand for them, but smart, targeted funding could eventually reduce their numbers by eliminating some of the despair that leads people to use drugs. Caveat: I know my outlook is rather "sunny";unfortunately,the things I propose in this thread simply represent my fondest wishes, and I don't have much hope these things will actually come to pass.

by **rain** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:04 pm

so I've had a few thoughts through this - i. 'Provocateur !' ii. gee, maybe they've set the 'real' professionals on us. iii. well, if this were a bunch of kids, I'd have to say that what's actually going on is that 'this one has a crush on that one'. iv. hmm, modern neanderthal? v. good ol' fashioned 'come here, go away' tactics. vi. passive-agressive control freak. vii. oh, please don't go. this is such fun. distracting, but fun. viii. ?

Obsessing About Conspiracy

reply

whatever

Personality Parade

one last thing

Painful birth process

Re: Painful birth process

Re: Painful birth process

the illegal economy

Oh yeah that's what he's saying

Re: Obsessing About Conspiracy

????

Re:really need a chat with you,i evolved from the hard left

bye bye

Re: the illegal economy

re:'bye bye'

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