Is Maurice Strong so wrong?

by **pugzleyca3** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:33 am

To be governed is to be restrained. And though I don't have the historical knowledge about governments the world over many on this board seem to have, I know when something stinks. My guts tell me and everytime I don't listen, I end up in the pickle barrel. The whole money issue is hard for me to wrap my mind around. But the best way I can understand it is that the entire economy (as we know it presently) is an illusion designed to greatly benefit few. Except for the part where people do physical (or mental) work to make the money they use to pay back debt, the work is tangible and goods the workers buy with that money are tangible. And the money lenders who create the paper we use as currency are able to obtain goods, another tangible, with the illusion of the interest and the illusion of the money they created from nothing to lend. So, could someone please explain to me what the end of all this is supposed to be? Is it to get everyone into debt where they can never get out, all based upon an illusion? ?Are the laws to be changed to create debtor's prisons for the purpose of human enslavement? Is the population truly going to be culled? As long as the current currency is accepted as legal tender and goods can be purchased with these pieces of paper, it is not worthless. Would the elite not be the biggest losers if the illusion of value of these pieces of paper was outed for all to see? Even the rich have to pay property taxes, assessments on real estate and they have to buy plates for their cars year after year, don't they? This to me means you never truly own anything because the government continues to tax it year after year. And if you don't pay, you lose ownership, if you can actually call it that. Owning cars and real estate is like entering into a contract with the goverment and it is one in which you never know what the terms are going to be from year to year and these terms are constantly changed unilaterally by them to your detriment because they can raise the cost of ownership whenever they please through enactment of new laws. Is there a group of elitists who are not paying their tax bills or paying for license plates like the rest of us do? Do they have the power to erase this debt or do they just play the game like we all are forced to do by law in order to dupe everyone else into doing it? Those who create the money should have no problem paying these things, I guess. Apparently the illusionists love their money and I can't understand where a huge segment of the population is going to end up if this illusion is shattered and the world economy goes to hell in a handbasket. The corporate elite will not survive due to the fact that they are going to destroy their own economic base. Who will consume all the unnecessary goods they produce if we are reduced to famine and poverty for the majority of people? Are they simply fodder for the NWO and will be cast aside as the rest of us supposedly will be? Maybe this post sounds silly and uneducated, but I can't understand how the elite plan to pull this off and maintain their own cushy lifestyles once they destroy the base. What I am trying to do here is reduce this into simple, concrete terms that I can grasp. Physical terms. And I can't seem to do it or understand it. Am I just stupid or what? I need a step by step, example laden explanation of this if someone could please provide their analysis of this scenario with regards to the globalists and their money lending practices and how they expect to survive the depression of their own illusionary system. And maybe my misunderstanding of this is based on a naive belief that Americans have always believed themselves to be a free people, whether that is an illusion or not. And many are not willing to give that up, real or imagined. I for one am not. If freedom is an illusion for Americans, it is a dangerous illusion for the New World Order to have ever allowed to manifest. That is a genie which will not be easy to put back in the bottle because there are a lot of people who are beginning to understand what these bastards are up to and there is a huge awakening to the loss of freedoms we have now. I say this based on the people around me and what they are saying about the current government and the state of affairs in America. I will never give up hope that they can't be defeated by right and fair minded people.

by **robertdreed** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:51 pm

"Even the rich have to pay property taxes, assessments on real estate and they have to buy plates for their cars year after year, don't they? This to me means you never truly own anything because the government continues to tax it year after year. And if you don't pay, you lose ownership, if you can actually call it that. Owning cars and real estate is like entering into a contract with the goverment and it is one in which you never know what the terms are going to be from year to year and these terms are constantly changed unilaterally by them to your detriment because they can raise the cost of ownership whenever they please through enactment of new laws." The way the system is supposed to work, "the government" isn't some remote force that's immune to public feedback. For better or worse, the State of California held a public initiative- that's like a referendum, a ballot measure- on property taxes long ago, back in 1978. As a result, property taxes, far from being "constantly changed unilaterally" by the California State government, have been frozen at the same rates that were paid in 1978. This has helped impoverish the state treasury, over time. And they need the money- the population of California has gone up by around 40% since then, about 12-15 million people. But until a popular majority of the electorate decides to do something about it, "the government" can't do a thing to raise property taxes. As for auto licensing fees- consider that the autos are driven on public highways. In fact, if all you want to do is drive your car on your own private property, you don't need to register it. For those of us who feel a requirement for more interaction with the outside world, there are a lot of things that have to be paid for. Imagine a "deregulated" world free of smog controls, for instance. Welcome to modern China...well, in the USA, it wouldn't be quite that bad. But if regulation hadn't placed demands on IC engine technology to improve, I think it's reasonable to assume that the air in most urban areas would be at least three times as dirty as it is today. I don't want any more government supervision, regulation, taxation, or above all criminal law sanction imposed than is necessary. But most of us live in a complex modern society with a lot of infrastructure, service, and maintenance requirements, for everything from public safety to water treatment. I'm not sure how one goes about using "competition" to provide "market choice" of waterworks for a city, for instance. In the end, you get one set of pipes, and they all route to the same place...to do otherwise would be madness.

by **zangtang** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:25 pm

possibly the best post on a fascinating if at times infuriating thread. and the previous (wayback) poster who notes that what is required is not regime change but regime removal...... like the naive little fluffbunny that i am, i've always thought that the majority of people who enter politics (however deluded) do so with at least a smidgin of desire to make the world a better place, irrespective of which side of the charade their ego, beliefs and peer-group-needing-pandering-to lies. it then unfailingly goes to shit. does this leave us with but 2 options? - change the nature of humans - or change the nature of political power? Not the shade or angle or side of the fence - the NATURE of power. What is power? why is it seemingly irredivorcible (oh full marks!) from money? should we have a competition to see if anyone can conceptually rig up a functioning infrastructure where the very notion of power has been taken out of the equation? Or should we mutually agree to put the lords of Karma on hold for a bit whilst we kill the rich until there are no rich more? I've always loved the expression 'hope springs eternal' but at present, I just wish i could find solid reasons to be optimistic about the future...... 'Its you and me kid,...personally I think we're gonna get creamed!'

by **rothbardian** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:16 pm

My whole issue is that I want freedom. For example, after my insurance company was billed a ridiculous and criminal $9000 for my brief stay at an emergency clinic (to receive pain meds for a kidney stone) I would like to have the freedom to go down the street to another clinic that offers the same treatment for 250 bucks. For someone to argue that we just can't allow 'health care' to enter willy-nilly into the 'free market', is to hold to a strange concept which believes that somehow the people who currently preside over the health care industry (bureaucrats/politicians who have corruptedly colluded to jack up the cost of a sprained ankle to $5000) are magically and inexplicably...morally superior to community members who become health care entrepeneurs. Remove these bloated bureaucracies and you literally remove the opportunity for corruption. The whole strange idea behind arguments for Orwellian authoritarian government is that if people are 'left to their own devices' they will instantly run amok. Really? Then what about those who are in the illigetimately powerful positions in govt.? They are 'people' too after all. It doesn't solve the problems- it makes them worse. In California, education bureaucrats have 'run amok' in the same way US and Canadian health care 'crats have: They've ratcheted up the ed. budget to $54 billion...and 2/3 of it have gone missing. That averages to $9000 per child. If we actually received that money at our locals schools, my child could be chaffeured to school in a limousine. I would love to have the FREEDOM to get together with ten other sets of parents..select a tutor of OUR choosing, select our own curriculum and methodology (and at $5/day per family at a tiny fraction of the current cost and a sizable pay increase for the teacher). Oh but we can't have 'little people' like me just running around 'willy-nilly' enjoying freedom and autonomy. The only 'realistic' solution is to give our children over into the hands of the magically morally superior 'government education experts'. These people have presided over tragic, precipitous drops in literacy in America. Literacy among black Americans was at 80% in 1950 and has dropped to about half of that in 2005. Personally, I'm ready to re-sign the Declaration of Independence.

by **Telexx** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:28 pm

Money seems to be at the heart of all this (who's surprised?) Our time is controlled by the hours you must work to earn Survival Tokens, which you receive once per month. You earn enough cash to consume, to live, and if you're lucky make it through to the next month. Here I suppose the "commodity" you are trading is your own time - fair enough. But why does your time come so cheaply? Why do we have to work 5 days per week, and not say 2 or 3? The vast profits generated by the 5-day-working-week economy could pay for a reduction in our working hours many times over, but this is not likely to happen anytime soon. Those profits aren't for the hoi polloi, but our masters and betters... Our actions are controlled by law, both civil and criminal. It seems fair enough that there should be penalties for theft, or murder, or even defamation of character etc, and so it seems these laws are for our own good. But wait, recently in the UK the sale of magic mushrooms became prohibited; an offense punishable by large fines & prison. I didn't call for this law and it certainly isn't for my own good. The state robs & murders people every day (and calls it War) so I doubt it really cares about crime per se. More probably it cares about the cost of time. Governments are there to keep us productive, first and foremost. You can't be productive if you're drunk (or high), you can't be productive if you've had your head bashed in... Our survival is controlled intrinsically by the money we earn (look at the life expectancy of poverty stricken people). To survive in this context means to spend - to consume goods & services - you generate profit each time. Of course not everything you consume is provided by mega-corporations, but much of it boils down to units of product sold in as many 'markets' as possible (Hey - we used to be countries!) Also - our minds are controlled through disinformation, opiates (especially TV) and fear. You all know the rest I suppose that's why you're here already. And then don't even get me started on the gravy trains, the corruption and kick-backs. The whole thing stinks and is rotten to it's core. Fucking Enron etc... Instead of NWO perhaps it will be the dawn of a New World Market - global opportunities for big business; profits for all; a common market interface with standardised, easy-to-please consumers who don't complain... I can't imagine the ruling elite dismantling these systems when they're doing such good, money-spinning business, especially as we're kept with Eyes Wide Shut and utterly excluded from their sphere, if not their globe. I can imagine these controls evolving as our cyncicism evolves (look at the naivety of 50's TV ads for example). Profits will continue to get fatter, as will we. Telexx

by **foyd Smoots** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:21 pm

First off, I can't figure out how I went from a "Registered Member" back to an "unregestered user", but I'm not going to waste what few brain cells I have left obsessing over it. It doesn't really matter, thanks to our gracious host, Jeff. I Have tried logging in with my chosen password, but for the last couple of days or so, it hasn't seemed to matter. Big Deal! What you/we have to say is more important than whether or not we made the (b)log-in robot happy. To all of you who have posted here, on Page 3, I can only add, for the most part, hearty agreement. Well thought out, and Well Said!!! Telexx, I have followed many posts, on many sites, which posit that the main reason that we ARE getting fatter, is due to the deliberate introduction into North America's food supply of MSG. Knowing the relative high intelligence of most of this board's readers/writers, many of you have probably already learned about this deliberate pollution of the "food chain". Just about any and all "processed" foodstuffs, i.e, anything canned, boxed, enveloped, frozen, or pre-packaged in any way contains this ingredient under its known name, MSG, or many FDA-approved synonyms for said same ingredient. This applies to foods produced here in the USA, and in other "first world" countries for export all over the globe. For any of you readers who are not familiar with this outing of a dangerous chemical, just google it, unless, of course, "g.com" has dropped many, many links that it used to show you when you asked about monsodium glutamate. And........DON'T even get me started about Donald Rumsfeld's involvement in the hellish introduction of Aspartame into our systems! "They" say it's all about taste enhancement. Many say it's all about the $$$, higher sales in an intense competitive marketing environment, don't you know. I say it's mainly about introducing a chemical that helps to tranquilize the "cattle" and dim down their thought processes, as well as thier passions, sexual, politcal, and sprirtual. What do you folks rigorously intuit about this little part of the "Hopelessly Intertwined" impersonation of reality??? Floyd (I Smell Lots of RATS) Smoots

by **Floyd Smoots** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:26 pm

The chemtrais over Norfolk, Virginia were truly beautiful this late afternoon. They produced quite a lot of lovely "sundogs".

by **pugzleyca3** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:30 pm

I remember MSG being marketed as a "flavor enhancer" as far back as 35 years ago. So this poison has been marketed not only in packaged food, but in the old Mom and Pop restaurants, too. You know the ones, where you could buy the plate lunches, meatloaf or fried chicken, etc. , mashed potatoes and gravy, corn on the side and maybe a corn muffin. My mother was a cook in restaurants for years and she told me that practically every restaurant she worked in advocated the massive use of MSG. And she also told me that MSG can be used to mask the smell of rotting chicken and any other kind of meat. She worked for one restaurant where they demanded she put MSG on stinking chicken which was to be fried and served to the customers. She quit, she said she couldn't stomach doing something like this to people. How lucky were they that no one was injured by being fed this horrific mess. She should have called the health dept. but that was 35 years ago in a town with a population of 324 people in the midwest, so she knew if she did she'd suffer the consequences of the call. Ever since then, I've had an aversion to eating anything I don't prepare myself, but like most everyone else I've eaten my fair share of junk food over the years. Only recenly did I take seriously the deadliness of aspertame, begin to understand how important it is to drink lots of pure water and to detox the body at every opportunity by using organic products. Once I saw Rumsfeld's name attached to aspertame, I knew it was time to take a good hard look at that product. What a horrible poison. Every time I see my loved once drinking a diet coke or eating and drinking other "diet" products I get on their case about it. Of course, they think I'm just exaggerating and write me off as a health nut. Recently, the FDA or USDA (don't remember exactly how the article I read was worded on this) have gotten approved about a zillion chemicals which can be added into foods and are still to bear the mark of ORGANIC on them. The organic food industry is one of the fastest growing industries in America, so I presume that the big guys like the Twinkie people, etc. were starting to feel the pinch and want to get in on those profits. So, if you are eating organic food, beware that this new law was recently passed and you might not be getting what you are paying for. The only way to guarantee you are getting truly organic foods now is to know your source and use only ones you feel you can trust. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pugzleyca3>pugzleyca3</A> at: 12/17/05 12:36 pm

by **jamesredford** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:29 pm

chillin: "Somebody needs to remember to take their meds." Those "meds" may not be good for you, chillin. Perhaps they are the reason why you need a reminder to take them.

by **jamesredford** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:39 pm

heyjt: "" James Redford: Hey man, The State will no longer control the means of production, because the means of production controls the state. There are no more Commies. Even China. Even Cuba. Are you denying that the entire manifest destiny history of capitalist/Christianity has not exploited the earth? What steps should be taken then, to save the damned planet?? "" The planet is meant to be exploited by man. Indeed, that is the only thing (save divine intervention) which can save the planet from certain destruction when the Sun becomes a red giant. But the steps that should be taken are the steps which ought to always and forever be taken: in all things, do unto other as you would have others do unto you. In other words, in part, do not intiate the use of force upon others. Failure to abide by this principle is the problem with the world. The solution is to abide by it--always.

by **jamesredford** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:44 pm

Telexx: "" James Radford - Are you in fact trying to discredit some poor unfortunate named "James Radford" by oozing your way around the Internet? If so your parody of an insufferable prick is first-rate! Congrats! If not, well your attempted erudition is invalid anyway due to your mirth-inducing arrogance. Please go back to school and learn how to be a decent human being, and take your much-spammed bloody paper with you! Telexx "" Many thought Jesus was "arrogant," too, but that doesn't mean that He was incorrect.

by **jamesredford** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:17 pm

Telexx: "" Floyd, It was only a typo I'm sure you can work out "What in dang-diddly he did there, gosh darn it" etc... Also don't make me laugh by asking for a translation of OTHER people's postings - it causes worry to the nursing staff here when I laugh-out-loud... ;-) (I am just kidding). Personally, and I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near as well read as Mr. James Redford, I prefer to listen to people's arguments and consider how they sit with what I suspect I know, rather than to just flat-out disregard what is said with a highly patronising "Phhhht, I'm clearly right; you can, logically, be only wrong" kind of reply. Hence my jibe about erudition - that attitude is far from clever after all... I don't think every politician ever elected has been sat down, played the Kennedy assassination from a totally new & previously unseen angle, and then was asked "Any questions?" (courtesy - Bill Hicks) It's also clear that the top level politicians have obligations first and foremost to groups of wealthy, powerful and often hidden men. This seems to be irrelevant of ideological leaning or background - i.e. they are all the same when they get high up enough. Obviously as voters we are way down the list of priorities, and this makes you wonder about the use of subscribing to any political ideology. The various political doctrines may in fact just be alternative ways of ensuring money continues to be generated by the masses and continues to be harvested only by rich. Control, influence etc is all well and good but only with $$$ in the bank. Maybe there is a giant master plan in place to have us enslaved by 2020. Maybe the enslavement is gonna (continue to) be financial. After all, the invasion of Iraq was also a lot to do with mobile-phone tenders, school building tenders, school-book supply tenders, road building tenders, water supply tenders, public printing contracts etc, etc, etc... But, wait, aren't these all facets of your "free market" (the oxymoron to rule them all btw - even better than "reality tv" which is saying something). Love & kisses. Telexx "" No, Telexx, that's what we are saying: that the current mercantilist system is *not* free-market. It's a system controlled by government and government insiders, for the benefit of government and its insider connections. Real capitalism is simply what happens when people are left to be free. The libertarian order is where the only thing outlawed is the aggression (i.e., initiation of force) against another person's just property, including the property in their own person. And this libertarian conception of liberty is the only coherent one possible for the reasons elaborated upon by Manuel Lora in the below article (particularly see the fourth paragraph in the below article): "NRA Reloaded," Manuel Lora, LewRockwell.com, November 10, 2005: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/m.lora5.html

by **jamesredford** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:26 pm

Col Quisp: "" Add "delusions of grandeur" to that list! Blather! "" I agree that chillin ought to find a healthful alternative to the "meds" of his that he was concerned about earlier.

by **James Redford** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:41 pm

chillin: "" "And we shouldn't even begin to talk about the Canadian government's de facto ownership of healthcare, where you can wait 5 hours to get 4 stitches." Waiting around for free treatment is somehow worse than no treatment at all? You usually wait 5 hours for something like that because babies with high fevers and people with more serious injuries get to go first. There probably isn't a single Canadian who is in financial peril due to medical expenses. The system is far from perfect but I don't know that it deserves the scorn that you imply. "" I can testify that *no* so-called "treatment" at all would be far, far better. Once a few years ago when I was living in Orlando I was at one of my friends' house in my neighborhood during the morning when the stores just started selling beer. I took my friend's bike to the corner gas station next to our neighborhood to buy myself a quart of Natural Ice--I had left my car at my house so that was quicker anyway. I got the beer and as I was just getting back to my friend's house I lightly tapped on the brake to slow down--but only the front brake was working (i.e., on the left side handle). Well, the brake locked up and I ended up flying over the handle bars with my quart of Natual Ice in my right hand. I ended up nearly cutting off my right pinky finger as the bottle broke in my hand (and also on my chest, but the cuts there weren't as bad). It was a clean cut on my pinky finger all the way to the bone, and it was bleeding all over the place. I ended up going to the hospital to get stitches as this was just too much for a Band-Aid. But the thing about that is that I ended up having to wait about three hours in the hospital before a doctor could even stitch me up, and by that time a lot of the meat in my pinky had already swollen up out through the cut--I guess you could say by that time it was no longer a clean cut. The doctor had to take a probe to shove all the meat back under the cut before he sewed it up (after doing a nerve block at the base of my pinky with Novocaine, of course). So now that it's healed there's a raised bump where the meat was shoved back in. The thing about all this is that my going to the hospital would not have been necessary in the first place were it not for all the laws which keep people from accessing medicine. Were it not for such laws then I could have simply went to the corner Publix or Walgreen's to get some cocaine, a suture needle, and some suture thread to stitch myself up while the cut was still fresh and clean. Of course, as it was then, when one is bleeding all over the place one usually isn't in the mood to try and score an 8-ball of cocaine for $100 (or a gram for whatever a gram was going for at the time--though I only bought 8-balls when it came to powder); not that I had such money at the time, anyway. Nor would I have much desire to use a sewing needle and sewing thread. Oh, and cocaine works good for toothaches, too. Not that I've ever had a toothache (indeed, I have my wisdom teeth--hence my wisdom), but my best friend in Orlando (a different friend not living in my neighborhood at the time) used to get them all the time (toothaches, that is, of which cocaine worked well for them, he said). That's just one of quite a number of horrible experiences I've had with hospitals.

by **jamesredford** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:00 pm

robertdreed: "" Where does a Fundamentalist Libertarian go, if he finds he's beeen cheated or ripped off? Does he just reach for his six-gun? The "anti-government", pro-"free market" argument goes out the window once societies get much more complex than hunter-gatherer bands, or small-plot agicultural communities. I tell Fundamentalist Libertarians the same thing I tell Communists- go on and do it, what's stopping you? Libertarians- move to Montana, or Alaska, and homestead. Get off the grid, don't wait for the government to crumble. Communists? Start your own collective farm, cooperative cottage industry, or restaurant. If everyone's up for cleaning the grease traps when their turn comes, everything else will work out. As long as you have an honest bookkeeper, that is. And stay away from outside investors. They just want to run ya. Jesus didn't have much to say about economics, but the few pronouncements he did make that could be interpreted as having a bearing on that subject lead me to believe he favored, for want of a better phrase, a "mixed economy." Jesus favored productive investment, as well as making sure that the children were taken care of. And that the strong should not oppress the weak. "" Yes, robertdreed, I'm very proud to say that I'm anti-government to the very core of my being, as government (i.e., per se, in and of itself) is evil, i.e., the very ethic upon which its foundation rests is evil; and government is not merely evil, but the greatest evil that has ever existed on the face of the Earth. Jesus said that in all things, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. This necessarily rules out the possibility that government could ever be legitimate, as government can only exist due to a privilege of monopoly on the ultimate control over the law which it enforces while excluding regional competitors, i.e., government can only exist by doing unto others as it would *not* have other do unto it. For more on that, see my below article: "Jesus Is an Anarchist," James Redford, revised and expanded edition, November 9, 2005: http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/anarchist-jesus.pdf

Is Maurice Strong so wrong?

Re: correction/clarification

Re: correction/clarification

Thank you mr E......

freedom vs.regime

Hopelessly Intertwined

Applause, Applause!!!

A Quick Post Script

MSG

chillin's meds

Re: Settle down kids...

Re: Tres amusant

Re: Very amusing

Re: Megalomania

Re: care for the sick and injured

Re: anti-government?

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