meme "theory"

[robertdreed]

I still haven't found a definition I found suitable...maybe I'll try an example...<br><br>"No ifs, ands, or buts- Uranus, and the Cancers"<br><br>didn't someone use that last part already, as part of an effort to market their music alternative?<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 8/7/05 6:32 am<br></i>

[sunny]

mini zeitgeist? <p></p><i></i>

[rain]

robert, how much do you consider yourself as just another piece of machinary with an e.m. field ?<br>how much of what you perceive yourself to think, feel believe, is uniquely 'you'? how much do you share with others? to both questions, which 'bits'? where do they come from? up-loadable programmes, down-loadable files. <br> <p></p><i></i>

[enkidu]

You asked Robert but I couldn't stand waiting for his reply.<br><br>That's all--I just wanted to say I'll be reading this thread with interest <p></p><i></i>

[rain]

let's see where it goes shall we. <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

I still haven't found anyone willing to provide a direct answer to my direct question.<br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 8/7/05 7:44 am<br></i>

[ZeroHaven]

I only have a basic understanding so perhaps my explanation will suit you. I have not read any meme theory, I just got this understanding from other people's conversations. <br>I do not understand your example at all.<br>-><br>Meme theory is a supposition that there exist encapsulated ideas which replicate by transmitting themselves from brain to brain. Memes are self-reproducing mental information structures similar to genes in biology. Some people compare them to viruses instead, because they can modify the behavior and emotions of the host.<br><br>Although not a living organism, they seem to follow(hence it's theory and not theorum) the same rules of natural selection. They replicate, sometimes there's mutation, they adapt to their environment, and are symbiotic with their host. They can even form something like family units; they will support each other and even replicate together.<br><-<br>That's my unscientific take on it.<br><br>-----here's what I got from the dictionary-----<br>Meme - A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another.<br>Theory - A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. <br><br>Since memes are often compared to viruses...<br><br>My meme definiton using the definition of "virus" - Any of various thoughts, ideas, or concepts that often cause agreement and that consist essentially of a core of words or symbols. Unable to replicate without a host cell, memes are typically not considered living organisms. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

Thanks for the take on it, ZH.<br><br>I think the "language as virus" analogy breaks down at some important levels. I'm not sure of the function of "virulence" in the analogy, for instance. More important, if language is a virus, what's the function of an immune system? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? <br><br>Quick question: who out there knows the difference between "langue" and "parole?" I haven't noticed those terms being used in the course of discussing computer programming and languages. Computer programming is mathematial and reduces to binary code, and terms like "langue" and "parole" describe a quite different realm than binary iterations.<br><br>But when discussing human languages, the difference between "langue" and "parole" takes on a great deal of significance.<br><br>Ultimately, human consciousness programs computers, not the other way around. Sloppy as that may appear... <p></p><i></i>

[foodforlife]

It's one of the most tossed around and abused terms, but I think it can be very useful, simply on the level of understanding a "meme" as a unit of propaganda. I see it as pragmatically understood as a piece of information... err, a viral concept, basically. <br>Simplify- it's useful in implying through our language that there is in fact a "propaganda matrix," that ideas flow, that- listen, dude, you didn't come up with that one yourself; it's a *meme.*<br>I'm aware that there is a whole long history to the term, a history that has its dark side, if you will. I understand it came out of Richard Dawkins' book "The Selfish Gene," and, as such, meme was a semi-cyborgian term, i.e., yes... "they seem to follow the same rules of natural selection." Give me a break.<br>There was also a famous book "The Meme Machine" by one Susan Blackmore, which I skimmed last year, which comes from a similar AI type of perspective, when you boil it down.<br>Then there are people, such as author Ken Wilbur- recently mentioned on this forum- who peddle "meme" to signify color-coded societal groupings. Read his "The Theory of Everything," and you will learn about how the world's people can be grouped into color-coded "memes," from the green memers (ex-hippies) to the purple memers (new agers, for want of a better term), to the orange memers (achievers, scientists). This view effectively breaks up the world's people into categories of belief systems. It conveniently ignores social class. And it ignores the fact that these movements, or social groupings, are spread by the elites as a divide-and-conquer. Indeed, Mr. Wilbur admits to working with "advisors" to the likes of Clinton, Blair, and Bush Sr. I'd say- people are not memes, silly Wilbur; people pick up memes *that are fed to us.* Who controls the memes? Who controls?<br>Anyway, the color-coding represents another popular attempt to sieze this most coveted term. <br>Do words matter? They infinitely matter. So let's capture the meme flag. "9/11 truth" is a meme. "Parapolitics" is an emerging meme! "Another world is possible." ... Word memes. (In coffee shops around the country) everyone's talking about it! Meme- idea trend. Virus.<br>So never mind the pseudo-science, let's stay at the level of societal reality. Perhaps the late Terence Mckenna (to stay thematic and integrative, but not to implicitly endorse McKenna at all) was right- "the universe is made of language."<br>Huh, are we back to the Noam Chomsky conversation? :-)<br>Are you a good meme, or a bad meme? <p></p><i></i>

[enkidu]

I wonder, a lot, about free will; it seems, as a "swarming" species, being on the outer fringes is probably more circumstance than volition, we don't choose to be outsiders so much as somehow we manage to end up here. We have the ability of physical locomotion but we move predictably, based on probably-hardwired survival imperatives. Evolution favors the selfish, the greedy, the "pushy," but with all the pushing and shoving, few of us us find ourselves quite where we thought we wanted to be.<br>Then there are the tides and currents of the constantly-moving, never-changing matrix in which we live--which includes Time, by which I mean we don't drag the Past behind us so much as the Past pushes us forward. Where we are now depends on where we've been, and where we go from here depends on where we are now.<br>But if we have no choice but to "dree our weird," what's the fucking point?<br>A meme is a character on a page: Is the book in the process of being written, or is it already written--who's writing it (or who wrote it) and who's turning the pages: reader or writer?<br><br>Tangentially, from what I gather here, the so-called powers-that-be are engaged in the worst kinds of compulsive behaviors, which reflects on their own past victimization and abuse. One might say they are themselves slaves and prisoners of a system not of their own choosing . . .<br><br>Just thinking out loud folks, not trying to persuade or convince or sound like I know what I'm talking about. That great line in the movie "Repo Man" has been applied to me more than once:<br>"You took a lot of acid in the 'Seventies, didn't you?" <p></p><i></i>

[ZeroHaven]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>More important, if language is a virus, what's the function of an immune system? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>SKEPTICISM is the immune system. Critical thinking, logic.. that sort of thing.<br>The foreign object inserts itself into person's head. Person's mind reacts - is this true? Does it reflect reality? Maybe you remember when "nearly everybody" thought you could get AIDS by being in the same room with an infected person. That belief was a meme, and there's STILL people carrying it. Anyone with a healthy meme immune system would go looking for facts to defeat it. <br>'enkidu' just said "we don't choose to be outsiders so much as somehow we manage to end up here" - you will find that if you don't give in to popular memes and question them or attempt to disprove them, the infected will turn against you. Reminds me of a few zombie movies.. and conspiract theorists.<br><br>The meme immune system can be both good and bad. Consider getting a fever to kill off your infection. Fever good to kill off foreign bodies, but could get too high and kill off important bits like brain cells.<br><br>The "language as a virus" can be thought of as the allegedly 'good bacteria' in your lower intestine. You need it to function. You're using it now. <br>I don't like using the term 'virus' for memes because many can be and are beneficial. <br><br>Langue, parole: <br>'Parole' is the act of speaking.. it doesn't apply to typed language that is not spoken. If you want to get technical you can talk about voice recognition software, but that's another topic altogether.<br>'Langue' is a view of a language as a system, that includes pronounciation. Again, it doesn't really apply to an unspoken language. Here's a fine case study of <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.theflasharchive.com/f/f-85.htm" target="top">a langue</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->.<br> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

The terms have special significance in anthropological linguistics. They were originally applied by the language theoretician Saussure, one of the founders of the discipline of anthropological linguistics.<br><br>Chomsky superceded a lot of Saussure's ideas. But I think some of Saussure's points still stand, notably this one:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Sassure contends about langue that "language is not complete in any speaker; it exists perfectly only in a collectivity."<br><br>"Parole on the the other hand," notes Silverman, "has an individualized and localized existence."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>In other words, "langue" is the potential communicative breadth latent in a given language. Which I was taught was infinite, within any given language...inexhaustible. Oceanic. <br><br>And "parole" is bounded, localized to the thoughts and usages of a given individual.<br><br>I think that difference is especially significant when considering the ways in which human languages and computer programming languages vary. <br><br>Meditate on that...<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 8/7/05 7:32 pm<br></i>

[FourthBase]

Check out the book "Mind Wars", especially the term "tenetics"<br><br>^^^^^^^^<br><br>Meme! <p></p><i></i>

[foodforlife]

Short of getting the book- could you give me an online resource for what "tenetics" is? It doesn't come up in the dictionary. <p></p><i></i>

[FourthBase]

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/186508316X/qid=1123519139/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0312641-6995111?v=glance&s=books">www.amazon.com/exec/obido...ce&s=books</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Apparently "tenetics" is an extension of "memetics"<br>So you should look up memetics, it'll give you most of the definition. <p></p><i></i>