Justice for Woody

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:20 am

Anyone familiar with this? <a href="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/">justiceforwoody.org</a> <a href="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/story/shooting.html">Woody Asked for Protection, Got 7 Bullets</a> On the morning of December 2nd, 2001, Robert 'Woody' Woodward lay in a widening pool of his own blood, in front of the alter of a church, his body riddled by 7 police bullets. Minutes earlier he had been begging the incredulous congregation to grant him the protection of political asylum, explaining that he was being pursued by government authorities, who sought to kill him to silence him. Although he threatened himself in a desperate bid to persuade witnesses to stay, the 18 witnesses maintained that he never threatened anyone else. Why, then, did the police shoot him, and why has the state gone to such extraordinary lengths to obscure what happened that day? While the number of questions surrounding the behavior of the police in the church and of officials following the shooting has continued to grow, a very clear picture of what happened in the church that morning has emerged, and is recounted here in paragraph and page forms, as well as in a detailed narrative compiled from the eyewitness evidence. This is the story Vermont's Attorney General doesn't want you to hear. <a href="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/evidence/witnesses/woodys_words.html">What Woody Said</a> Woody identified himself and said many things to the parishioners which they remember, including that he had been threatened. Here are excerpts from eyewitness statements to state police investigators pertaining to what they remember Woody saying. Eyewitnesses Mary T: He had been "told" he would be tortured and how he felt that because of his environmental efforts, this was related to those directly and he was being pursued. ... he'd been brought up in Norwich Connecticut and then he lived awhile in Amherst and then he moved up to Bellows Falls, and that he worked with handicapped children as his vocation and as his avocation he was an environmental activist. people. Again, pleaded for sanctuary by saying he'd never rile against the Bush administration or people connected with him, or the military. "I'll never rile against the Bush Administration again, or the military or any of these other things. I just can not leave here, I am in danger." So that was stuck in there right before the police arrived. Robert: (Describing Woody's speech) Get out and vote, work for peace and protect the environment. He seemed to stress the environment, working for that, but the next breath, and this took over, he said he had been threatened, he received phone calls, the police were after him, going to be tortured, and then he went on and on. He was coming here to the sanctuary for protection. Janis: "I have to speak to everyone. I have to speak to everyone." The notes stated that he had been receiving threats of bodily harm ... by the CIA. He kept saying he was going to read a statement to us, it was very important, he needed us to be his witnesses. He appeared to be very agitated. He was sweating. He kept repeating the same sentence over and over again. Finally we said, we'll listen, we'll listen. He pulled out a sheet of paper and he put his hands on the podium and kind of looked like he was praying. And he paused for a moment and said "whew!" He took off his jacket and he said he was very hot, and then he began his statement. And he said, you know, his name. I believe he said his name was Robert, last name Woodward, friends call him Woody. Being persecuted for his activities. He works with kids. I believe he said troubled kids. Said he didn't do drugs, doesn't drink. A couple of members offered to sit with him separately, to go and talk to him and sit with him. He did say that was OK, and so he sat beside him. He kept saying that if we wanted... if we didn't believe him... if anyone had a cell phone, he would call the person on the cell phone, and he kept asking, and I actually said we don't have a cell phone. He said he was seeking sanctuary in this sanctuary. He kept repeating it over and over again. Some people were telling us to leave. He said no. He is receiving threats of bodily harm, electric shocks, for his activities, by CIA. He kept saying he needed to read his statement and we needed to be his collective witnesses. He kept repeating the same sentences. Took off his jacket. Said he it very hot. Friends call him Woody. Works with kids. Being persecuted for his activities. Doesn't drink or do drugs. Michael: He came out into the congregation and began handing out directly and leaving on the chairs, yellow pieces of paper, before returning to the pulpit. He handed me one which I glanced at and noticed it had a scribbled sentence that was non-sensible, but related to ideas of persecution. I picked up a couple pieces that were on the chair and put them all in my pocket. When he returned to the pulpit he paused, put his head down on the pulpit for about five seconds, and then abruptly straightened up while taking a couple big breaths. He then produced a piece of paper from which he began reading. Again this contained ideas of persecution with him saying something about the environment, his fear of being killed, and his desire to seek sanctuary in the church. He also said that he worked in mental health and that he worked with children. Someone, possibly the minister then asked the congregation to get up and leave, and proceed to the smaller chapel. He immediately shouted no, and out of nowhere produced a knife which he held up pointed towards his right eye with his right hand. It was very menacing looking, and was not just a little pocket knife. Jane: He apologized for scaring people and he said when you're under ... that he needed to take desperate action but, "I feel justified because such drastic action has been taken against me." <a href="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/story/message.html">The Last Message</a> The last words and sounds most of us will ever hear from Woody, at least from his physical embodiment, are preserved on a voicemail message, from a call Woody placed with the help of one of the parishioners. In it Woody says, "It's a political assassination" at least six times, mostly near the beginning of the message, and says, "It's about global warming" at several points in the message. He starts moaning fourteen seconds into the message, and continues throughout the message. He also says "I love you" and "help" and "help me". Although there was some speculation as to whether gunshots could be heard in the message, masked by clipping due to the limited amplitude range of the voicemail system, it is almost certain the the recording began immediately after the shooting. The first sounds that can be heard are loud shouts of "get out" and "handcuffs". Some press reports, such as the December 9 Boston Globe Article, allege that the call was made before the shooting, perhaps influenced by statements from authorities. Windham County State's Attorney Dan Davis said: "I am unaware of any phone calls he made after he was shot". and later said investigators believe Woodward made no phone calls after he was shot. However, this is clearly not the case, and even the Attorney General found in his report that the recording began immediately after the shooting. The likely location of the message in the sequence of events on that morning is described in the timeline of the extinguishing of Woody's life. <img src="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/img/woodygranite1s2.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

by **Jerky** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:48 am

Very strange and vague.

by **Sepka** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:01 am

Strange and vague indeed. However, in general, if you're brandishing a weapon in a standoff situation, even if you're claiming peaceful intentions, you're likely to be shot by the police. That's a fact of life. They're not inclined to take chances with their own lives (nor should they) just to make sure someone gets every last benefit of the doubt. -Sepka the Space Weasel

by * » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:01 am

<img src="http://valleyadvocate.com/binary/44265-273-2/between-2228.jpeg" style="border:0;"/> I remember when it happened. No satisfactory explanation then, none now. <a href="http://www.worldnewsstand.net/03/John_Kaminski/50.htm">Presidential candidate OK'd whitewash of 2001 police murder</a> The presidential aspirations of Howard Dean face an interesting test Tuesday, Dec. 2, when outraged mourners from all over New England converge on Brattleboro, Vermont to remember a gentle but confused soul who was shot to death by local police while inside a church. The march also will protest Dean's exoneration of the killer cops while he was that state's governor. Seventeen of 18 eyewitnesses on that fateful day contradicted the official police version of events, yet then-Gov. Dean approved a report saying police acted responsibly, despite compelling testimony that the victim was shot while lying on the floor and then denied medical treatment that might have saved his life. Organizers of the Justice for Woody march set for Dec. 2 accuse Dean of complicity in a conspiracy to obstruct justice in the case. Jonathan Mark in the current issue of Flyby News (See story #4.) reported it this way: <a href="http://www.flybynews.com/cgi-local/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1070062050,50733">here</a> Two years ago Robert Woodward was brutally gunned down by Brattleboro police officers Marshall Holbrook and Terrance Parker while seeking political sanctuary in a church. Woodward spoke of threats against his life by federal agents, and held a small knife to his eye, threatening suicide if he was left alone. The police fired seven bullets into Woodward's body within 60 seconds of entering the church, most of which were fired after he was downed. Four months later, these police officers were exonerated in a fraudulent and biased investigation by state Attorney General William Sorrell. Howard Dean, at that time Governor of Vermont, refused to appoint an independent investigator, stating that he was "comfortable" with Sorrell's findings. It is a widely known fact that William Sorrell's family was instrumental in the launching of Howard Dean's political career and the two are lifelong friends. To date, no criminal charges have been filed against either police officer, although 17 out of 18 church eyewitnesses questioned insist that Woody never threatened anyone but himself. A civil law suit against the town of Brattleboro is pending. Paul Borneo, one of the organizers of the Justice for Woody campaign, described it like this: On December 2, 2001, Robert Woodward died after being shot 7 times by police in a Brattleboro church. Beginning that day, Vermont State Police investigators conducted recorded interviews with each of the 18 eyewitnesses, who were asked where they were looking at the moment of the first shot, and whether they saw any threatening movements made toward the police officers. To a person, they did not. In addition, eyewitnesses volunteered that they had seen Woodward shot after he had fallen to the floor, and that he had been denied desperately needed medical care. Each time incriminating evidence was volunteered, the interviewer quickly changed the subject, and it was never pursued again. Of the three officers present at the shooting, the two who fired shots were allowed to fill out their reports in the same room, unsupervised, and admitted to discussing the incident prior to their interviews by investigators the next day. The third officer's interview contains an exchange that corroborates eyewitness accounts that the victim was shot from above. While securing the crime scene, officials apparently refrained from gathering crucial physical evidence or performing basic forensic analysis procedures, including those which could either prove or refute the eyewitness claims. On December 20, officials staged an incident reenactment with the three officers present at the shooting. Reenactments were performed with only 3 of the 18 church eyewitnesses. Months later, officials re-interviewed the eyewitnesses, but chose not to record their words. Recollections from the officials conducting these interviews, rather than quotes from the eyewitnesses themselves, formed the basis for the eventual exoneration. Vermont Attorney General William Sorell closed the matter with his April 2, 2002 Woodward Shooting Report, which justified the shooting as self-defense. It praised the investigation as "competent" and "diligent," while carefully hiding the evidence that the victim was shot after falling and then denied medical care. Vermont Governor Howard Dean, facing an outcry from citizens, the ACLU, and Vermont legislators, refused calls for an independent investigation, saying that he was "comfortable" with Sorrell's report. Dean maintained this position despite admitting to having read the evidence that the victim was multiply shot from above and then prevented from receiving available and possibly life-saving first aid. Dean was the only State elected official, other than Sorrell, who was able to initiate an investigation independent of Vermont law enforcement. At a fundraising event, a member of a citizen's group handed him a report containing the evidence of down shooting and denial of first aid presented in this document. Dean volunteered to read the report. In an article in the Brattleboro Reformer, Dean admitted reading the report, showing that he was aware of the evidence of down shooting and denial of first aid. Governor Dean is an accomplice to the conspiracy. Here's a teaser from this week's Valley Advocate: <a href="http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:44265">here</a> The charges are detailed with their supporting evidence at <a href="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/">here</a> and in particular on <a href="http://justiceforwoody.org/cases/obstruction/obstruction_v1.html">here</a> The march Tuesday begins at noon at the Brattleboro Food Co-op parking lot at the intersection of Rts119 and Rt 5 (Main St.) and goes up Main Street to the Police Station/Municipal Building. John Kaminski, a former Brattleboro resident, is the author of "America's Autopsy Report," <a href="http://www.johnkaminski.com/">here</a> *** "Those charges include accusations that Sorrell and Dean conspired to help cover up gross misconduct by police, who, the group alleges, shot Woodward without justification and subsequently prevented him from getting prompt medical treatment. According to eyewitness accounts, a medical doctor on the scene begged police to allow her to tend to Woodward, who was lying handcuffed in a pool of his own blood, but she was repeatedly rebuffed. Woodward died in a New Hampshire hospital about three hours after the shooting. Though AG Sorrell's official report was widely criticized upon its release, Howard Dean, who was governor of Vermont at the time, refused to appoint an independent investigator, stating that he was "comfortable" with Sorrell's findings. Sorrell and Dean are longtime friends and close political allies. A civil lawsuit filed by Woodward's family against the town of Brattleboro is pending. " <a href="http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:44265">link</a>

by **mother** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:51 pm

I can't find out which church this shooting took place; why is this bit of info so difficult to know? It's an intriguing story, but it lacks basic information.

by **banned** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:33 am

...my comments. I am not saying that this was not or could not have been a political assassination. However, sometimes the police just really screw up. Thanksgiving, about 10 years ago...not sure of the exact year...a friend of mine, a single mom, was fixing her holiday dinner when the local police knocked on her door and told her she and her young daughter--I think she was then 4 or 5--had to evacuate the house because next door a young man had been drinking too much and got in a fight with his father (the homeowner) and the mother had called the police; when the police arrived, the guy holed up in the house with a gun. He didn't hold his parents hostage, they ran out. To make a long story short, first they lobbed tear gas into the house, missed, and hit my friend's house, tear gassing her old sheep dog (she recovered but barely). Then, even though the guy in the house hadn't fired a single shot or threatened to kill himself, a sniper put a bullet through his head. The mother lost it, screaming she'd only called the cops because the son had been drunk, and now he was dead. My friend and all the neighbors were traumatized too. They all wanted the cops held to account. But it was a working class neighborhood, one step above a slum. Had the same thing happened to some rich lawyer's son in a posh gated suburb, it would have gone differently--they'd have had a hostage negotiator talk him into surrender and then he'd have been hospitalized, not jailed. Again, it could be Robert Woodward was persecuted and assassinated by the CIA. He may also have been mentally ill and delusional. Obviously the police screwed up but a political covereup thereof could have taken place even without CIA involvement. Governments cover up for cops 99% of the time, and for them not to there has to be some very unusual circumstance--like a video showing half a dozen cops piling unprovoked on a guy and beating him. Otherwise politicians don't side against law enforcement. Look what's happened to Der Goobernator since he got the police (and firemen) honked off at him.

by **FourthBase** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:39 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Again, it could be Robert Woodward was persecuted and assassinated by the CIA. He may also have been mentally ill and delusional.<hr></blockquote> I would bet everything I own that he wasn't delusional. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>"I'll never rile against the Bush Administration again, or the military or any of these other things. I just can not leave here, I am in danger." So that was stuck in there right before the police arrived.<hr></blockquote> That rings true to me. Fucking with the PTB re: global warming will get you killed, is the moral of the story, I guess. Unless maybe you have a lot of legal backup and witnesses and you're not giving them any excuse like holding a knife. And then there are the ways that whistleblowers insure themselves, like the evidence in the safety deposit box ready to be sent to the media. Are there other ways to protect yourself if you find that you've royally pissed off the PTB and they're coming after you? Ahhh...what a tyranny. Don't you love it? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|"> Well, the least Woody's friends and family could do is publicize whatever the fuck he was doing that got him killed. I mean, they should quit their jobs to focus on that. If the PTB can pick off Woody in a fucking church, and if global warming is something sinister and impending, then whatever lifestyle his friends and family are protecting by not getting involved is not worth living. Do you all understand that? The lifestyle you are living is not worth protecting. Get involved, talk to people you know about what you know now. It might save you from having to rapidly tell everything at once to a bunch of strangers in a church.

by **banned** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:57 pm

...to protect yourself from any tyrant who wants to hunt you down and kill you. Whether it was the Cheka or Savak or Mossad or the CIA, they always got their man (or woman.) However, the smarter tyrants don't kill people unless those people pose a credible threat. It's a risk/benefit analysis. There are lots of people running around including some people on this board who denounce Bush and his cronies but it's not worth the time and effort of 86ing us because we're harmless. I think the question is whether Woodward posed a threat sufficient to justify assassinating him in what was bound to be a controversial manner. Frankly this sounds to me like it's being pushed by anti-Howard Dean forces, not anti-Bush ones, and it rings my suspicion bell because of that.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:08 pm

This is a very strange story with many keywords that both expose what the PTB would like kept hidden and seemingly discredit their exposure as wild paranoid rantings. Coincidence. Maybe. CIA CIA cancer weapon CIA victims Bob Woodward Torture Mental Illness Children New car engine Fuel Efficiency Global Warming If someone were trying to design a website to show up in search engines and discredit these items as 'kooky konspiricism,' this would do it. This account of what Robert 'Bob' Woodward said in a frantic fearful state before being assassinated by police sounds like a man drugged and intentionally terrorized to the brink of coherence. Possible that when his name was found to match the spook who helps front the CIA's organ called the Washington Post that he was targeted precisely to get a wild incident out of him for the internet. That might be reaching but it matches the psychological warfare tactics the CIA uses in cultural steering through every venue possible. And with the internet as a new psy-ops venue, this would make sense. Paul Robeson suddenly went paranoid and suicidal at a party in Moscow and he never regained his health or chutzpah after that. When his son flew in to see what happened to his father, the same psychosis hit him. Many think this was the effect of a drug in the CIA's pharmacopia of neutralizing agents used on political enemies. Such a thing surely still goes on and Woody might've gotten a dose after being primed with threats. on edit: oops. I wrote "terrorized to the brink of coherance." Accidental truth through typos strikes again. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 11/23/05 11:56 pm

by **FourthBase** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:15 pm

So he said the CIA wanted him to join them. He said that he had fuel conservation ideas. He said something about George Harrison...? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>(Messages written on checks, read by detective): "I have received threats of death, torture, harm to friends and family and arrest on trumped up charges from the CIA." ... "The Unitarians should create and promote national network of buyers, co-ops for energy efficient vehicles."<hr></blockquote> Intriguing. What say his family and friends about that? Was the harassment continuous? Whoops...glad no one took me up on that bet yet, I retract it. This is from the Rescue Inc. paramedic: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>He stated that he wanted to report a murder and then went on to say the federal government had assassinated Jeb Bush and others. Woodward said, "Please tell the officer I assulted that I did not want to hurt him. I would not have harmed him. I just wanted him to shoot me." I observed this patient to be rational at times and trying to apologize for his actions.<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/evidence/witnesses/woodys_apology.html">www.justiceforwoody.org/e...ology.html</a> Another more interesting account from another paramedic: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>"The CIA kills with cancer, The CIA kills with cancer. George Harrison, Tip O'Niel, Bob Marley, Paul Tsongas, Nelson Mandela. This is a conspiracy, the CIA kills with cancer." While we were treating him with oxygen IV's and hemmorage control patient continued to rant continuously. Patient also stated multiple times he wanted "to apologize to the officer I assaulted." He also stated this was a political assasination because he was an environmentalist and the CIA wanted to keep him quiet. He never said about what.<hr></blockquote> Dammit, Woody, you have to tell people why the CIA wanted you dead! And another: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>He was also saying that cancer is the non-political killer and that he wanted to report the murders of George Harrison and Bob Marley and others.<hr></blockquote> And another: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Patient rambling about how the CIA was killing him, along with Jeb Bush, Tip O'Niel, and George Harrison. He said that the patient didn't care that he was going to die because the CIA was going to get him anyway.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The CIA is out to kill him, he says he had cancer and he wanted to die.<hr></blockquote> Did he have cancer or not? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The CIA killed McGovern. The CIA killed Jeb Bush- Florida. We said, well Jeb Bush isn't dead yet, and he said the other Jeb Bush.<hr></blockquote> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/sick.gif ALT=":x"> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>(at the hospital he said) just the same thing. The hospital was the McGovern thing, that McGovern was killed by the CIA; that Jeb Bush was killed by the CIA, that who used to be the house speaker, he was killed by the CIA. All these people were killed. They're continually killing a bunch of people.<hr></blockquote> Well, that's true. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And, you know, tell the Reformer, tell the paper, tell the press what happened here, I need you to tell people the CIA is out to get people.<hr></blockquote> And that's true, too. From a friend's description: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>He did not use drugs, and in the last years of his life he drank no alcohol, as he was pursuing Buddhist meditation. And though you may hear that Woody was unconventional, it would not be accurate to say he was eccentric or itinerant. He lived his daily life in a normal manner, he was clean and well groomed, he took good care of himself. He moved perhaps somewhat more than average, but the places that I saw that were his homes were clean and pretty. He was highly committed to the people around him. He loved merrymaking but he was not wild or uncontrolled.<hr></blockquote> Doesn't sound crazy, or even potentially crazy. From the mother's remembrance: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>He did this in ways that many of us only think about, and perhaps we shudder when we do. He hitchiked around Europe. He lived for a time in Taiwan where he taught English to Chinese children. He travelled throughout the United States in an old Volkswagon Rabbit<hr></blockquote> I'm always suspicious of people who travel. But maybe I don't get around enough. <a href="http://www.justiceforwoody.org/woody/career.html">www.justiceforwoody.org/w...areer.html</a> Woody was in Germany when the Berlin Wall came down. Anyway, nothing gives me the impression he was manic or schizo. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>At the time of his death, Woody was living in Bellows Falls, VT. and working as a counselor to teen-age foster children for one of the dozen mental health programs of the Northeastern Family Institute, a nonprofit organization in Springfield, VT.<hr></blockquote> Did he encounter SRA victims there? I wonder why the "Activism" link on that page is inactive.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:07 am

So Woody travelled overseas, too? China no less! Perhaps the CIA really did try to recruit and were rebuffed. When Woody did research on CIA he was appropriately horrified at what he found and then got pushed over the edge with threats and maybe a chemical dose to get a nice discrediting rant out of him on the way out. I think the single most suspicious thing is his name, Bob Woodward. Ole Washington Post Bob is confounding Fitzpatrick and shilling for the Bush Crime Family just as he did working for the Joint Chiefs of Staff and CIA in removing Nixon. With the internet now able to reveal his naval intelligence spook status, possibly he needed a confusion story ala 'X-Files' to hide behind for the coming permanent war marketing project. Or maybe the famous name was just a conicidence. But it would make sense that NSA would monitor a 'Bob Woodward' traveling in China and maybe bring this to the attention of CIA. NSA does monitor Americans overseas and everywhere else with their damn Echelon system. Yes, this feels stretchy but it works and seems to fit.

by **banned** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:15 am

...was the bit about the assassination of the 'other' Jeb Bush, in light of the many theories about the PTB replacing certain figures with doubles. I seem to remember reading some years back that Jeb Bush actually had some reasonable views, and had no interest in running for President. Based on the Jeb we saw in 2000 cavorting with that nutjob Katherine Harris, his rabid performance over Terri Schiavo, and the story about his imaginary Chinese warrior pal, not to mention his recent indications he may run after all, either the info I had originally was seriously in error, he's changed a lot, or...he's not the real Jeb, who perhaps proved too difficult to control, unlike his fucktard brother Dubya, so he had to be replaced.

by **GDN01** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:35 pm

First, it was a Unitarian Universalist Church in Brattleboro. I know some of the people who were there, including the minister who called the police for help. I can say, based on what I know about the situation and SOP (standard operating procedures) for the police - he was killed with out just cause. Having a knife in your hand is not just cause for being shot to death. Woody was in close proximity to other people, talking, having a conversation, by the time the police arrived. He may have even been sitting down. I think, based on memory of what I was told, he stood up and turned toward the door when the police entered. The police had their guns drawn and shot within seconds of entering the sanctuary of the church. This was quite a risk considering how many people were standing within feet of Woody. In addition to not being a drug user or drinking, Woody didn't have a history of mental illness either. One of his friends was a Unitarian and it seems that is why he chose to go to a UU church - a church that is known to advocate for environmental protections. But he had not attended that church before. Several people there are convinced the police came to kill him. Others say they over-reacted due to the tensions of post 9/11 sensitivities. But it makes no sense to walk in and shoot someone who is having a conversation with people. If he had had a gun, that might have been a different scenario that warranted pre-emptive gunfire. If he had been making threatening motions towards anyone in range of harm - that might have justified gunfire. If he had been told to drop the knife and he had not, that might have been justification. But no orders were given, no threats were made. No one was in danger. More danger was created by the police firing guns in a room with 18 people, some very near their target.

by **robertdreed** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:00 am

From the preliminary fact base supplied, it sounds to me as if this is police over-reaction. I've heard of several similar cases over the years. Mostly, I blame police training. From what I know, many police are trained to deal with people in situations of emotional extremity in the exact wrong way. Also unfortunately, all too many of them have temperaments that have very little sympathy for people on emotional precipieces- particularly rookie cops. The way they attempt to handle such situations is "come off it- you're faking." I think if they spent a few dozen evenings driving a cab, they'd have more of a clue about how to deal with the distraught. Instead, the police are typically trained as if the only tool in their kit is a hammer, and therefore everything has to be treated like a nail. This is especially true since Federal LEAA grants began training even rural and small-town police departments in paramilitary SWAT tactics.<a href="http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0999j.asp">www.fff.org/comment/ed0999j.asp</a> The biggest problems come when weapons are produced. That's when the "SWAT conditioning" comes into play- based on the idea that the threat has to be resolved immediately and decisively, in order to remove any possible threat to innocent bystanders and to restore public order. This precept is taught to police as an inflexible rule, even when the weapon is a penknife and the only person faced with immediate harm is the person holding the knife, doing something like threatening to stab themselves. I hear about such cases, and almost always they strike me as completely unnecessary outcomes, avertable tragedies. But- a purposeful execution? In order for me to grant that theory serious credence, I'd have to have some idea how and why it might be that there's a political hit squad nested within a small-town police department in Vermont. Not to say that it's out of the question- just that without knowing anything more, that possibility sounds extremely unlikely to me. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 11/28/05 12:24 am

by **GDN01** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:41 am

Robertdreed - I know that the way a cop responds to a situation is dependent on what is said in the call-out. If the dispatcher says "very dangerous situation..." the police show up ready to shoot. If the dispatch says, "someone is causing a disturbance..." the response is different. I've done ride-alongs with police as a part of a program to provide crisis counseling to police. The thought was that if we rode with them for calls we would understand what they dealt with better and the police would get to know us and actually go to us when needed. So one scenario would depend on what the police were told in their call out. The police could have been set up to respond with weapons drawn and shoot to kill on sight - which would achieve the end result of what happened, without them being a political hit squad. I haven't researched this, and maybe the transcripts are available to the public - but I would like to know what the dispatcher told the police before they arrived on scene.

Justice for Woody

Justice for Woody

First I've ever heard of it.

Re: First I've ever heard of it.

Re: Justice for Woody

where?

Please don't misunderstand...

Re: Please don't misunderstand...

No, there is no way...

Re: Please don't misunderstand...

Re: Please don't misunderstand...

Re: Please don't misunderstand...

I thought the most interesting part...

What I know

the killing

Re: the killing

Who is online